Why kidnap JBR, if not for money?

[Nuisanceposter]

However kidnappers kidnap children. Show her a gun or a knife and tell her Mommy and Daddy are gonna get it unless you stay quiet and come with me. Knock her unconscious and carry her out. Anything that gets her from her parents house to the safe place as soon as possible.

No kidnapper is going to sit around playing "games" with the victim while the parents are asleep and may wake up at any time. Way too much risk. A kidnapper already has a safe place set up to take the child, and they don't hesitate to get the child there. Did John Couey sit and hang out in Jessie's bedroom with her for a few hours, tying her up and molesting her with her grandparents in the next room, or did he grab her and take off? Or Duncan. He had just killed the parents and older brother of Dylan and Shasta Groene - he knew he could spend the rest of the night rampaging in that house with no interference from residents whatsoever, but did he stay and spend hours there? No, he took Dylan and Shasta and left. Kidnappers get the kid, and then get the hell out.

 

[Solace]

However kidnappers kidnap children. Show her a gun or a knife and tell her Mommy and Daddy are gonna get it unless you stay quiet and come with me. Knock her unconscious and carry her out. Anything that gets her from her parents house to the safe place as soon as possible.

No kidnapper is going to sit around playing "games" with the victim while the parents are asleep and may wake up at any time. Way too much risk. A kidnapper already has a safe place set up to take the child, and they don't hesitate to get the child there. Did John Couey sit and hang out in Jessie's bedroom with her for a few hours, tying her up and molesting her with her grandparents in the next room, or did he grab her and take off? Or Duncan. He had just killed the parents and older brother of Dylan and Shasta Groene - he knew he could spend the rest of the night rampaging in that house with no interference from residents whatsoever, but did he stay and spend hours there? No, he took Dylan and Shasta and left. Kidnappers get the kid, and then get the hell out.

She is six years old. Come on. How much strength does it take to subdue a 40 pound 6 year old.

 

[Holdontoyourhat]

However kidnappers kidnap children. Show her a gun or a knife and tell her Mommy and Daddy are gonna get it unless you stay quiet and come with me. Knock her unconscious and carry her out. Anything that gets her from her parents house to the safe place as soon as possible.

No kidnapper is going to sit around playing "games" with the victim while the parents are asleep and may wake up at any time. Way too much risk. A kidnapper already has a safe place set up to take the child, and they don't hesitate to get the child there. Did John Couey sit and hang out in Jessie's bedroom with her for a few hours, tying her up and molesting her with her grandparents in the next room, or did he grab her and take off? Or Duncan. He had just killed the parents and older brother of Dylan and Shasta Groene - he knew he could spend the rest of the night rampaging in that house with no interference from residents whatsoever, but did he stay and spend hours there? No, he took Dylan and Shasta and left. Kidnappers get the kid, and then get the hell out.

If all we had was the ransom note, and JBR was never found, then how fast the perp got JBR out of the house, or what they did inside the house during the middle of the night before leaving, would seem a lot less relevant.

Then, the question would be, where is JBR? In what town, state, or country?

Incidentally, while rereading the RN, I noticed the perp never says JBR would be returned safely. Only that she would be returned. Minor point, I suppose.

 

[Nuisanceposter]

You mean like just remove the part where JR finds her from the scenario, as if it all happened like we know except no basement discovery?

I don't know, HOTYH. Even if all we had the RN and JonBenet's body was never found, the FBI still questioned the validity of the RN and Patsy still would have been unable to eliminated. There's also the pesky problem of lack of forensic evidence of an intruder, and I'm not so sure we'd have seen the Rs be more cooperative and less demanding about working with the police, and they still would have lawyered up. They'd still have called all their friends against the warnings in the note and sent Burke out - and all of that would still indicate their possible involvement.

The RN does say something about her seeing 1997, so that implies she won't die if RN's demands are met.

 

[Holdontoyourhat]

You mean like just remove the part where JR finds her from the scenario, as if it all happened like we know except no basement discovery?

I don't know, HOTYH. Even if all we had the RN and JonBenet's body was never found, the FBI still questioned the validity of the RN and Patsy still would have been unable to eliminated. There's also the pesky problem of lack of forensic evidence of an intruder, and I'm not so sure we'd have seen the Rs be more cooperative and less demanding about working with the police, and they still would have lawyered up. They'd still have called all their friends against the warnings in the note and sent Burke out - and all of that would still indicate their possible involvement.

The RN does say something about her seeing 1997, so that implies she won't die if RN's demands are met.

RN author only says seeing 1997, not from where or with whom. Also, technically or legally speaking, the perp could have collected the ransom, and delivered JBR 20 years later in a box, without violating any of the terms of the ransom note!

 

[Nuisanceposter]

I guess technically that's true.

 

[Ames]

If all we had was the ransom note, and JBR was never found, then how fast the perp got JBR out of the house, or what they did inside the house during the middle of the night before leaving, would seem a lot less relevant.

Then, the question would be, where is JBR? In what town, state, or country?

Incidentally, while rereading the RN, I noticed the perp never says JBR would be returned safely. Only that she would be returned. Minor point, I suppose.

Yeah, because when John was dictating to Patsy what to write in the ransom letter, JB was already dead...thats why there is no mention of her being returned safely. Its pretty hard to return a dead child safely. BTW...how many other victims have you ever heard of that was killed in their own home while the parents and a sibling slept just yards away? How many other victims have you ever heard of that a three page ransom note was left, even though the child lay dead in the basement of the house? You say, "If all we had was the ransom note, and JBR was never found, then how fast the perp got JBR out of the house, or what they did inside the house during the middle of the night before leaving, would seem alot less relevant". Well, the fact remains that the "perp" spent alot of time in the Ramsey house, taking JB from her bedroom, taking her to the basement, killing her, redressing her, wiping her off, wrapping her in a blanket, leaving her favorite nightgown beside of her (now HOW would a perp that was NOT a relative KNOW that was her favorite nightgown?), writing a three page ransom note, ETC.....instead of just grabbing her and getting the heck out of Dodge, before her family members woke up. Now that IS relevant! Speaking of the nightgown.....when told about it....John said..."That wasn't supposed to be there". Yeah, John...your dead daughter wasn't "supposed to be there" either. My take on that, is ....that the nightgown wasn't part of the staging....I believe that it came out of the dryer with the blanket that she was found wrapped in, attached by static cling. How would a perp...that was NOT a relative....know where to find that blanket?? PERP: "Hmmmmm....lets see. Okay, now...what should I do next? I DO have to write that three page ransom letter, but...I don't know...I just can't leave her lying there like that. I need to wrap her up in a blanket or something. Gosh, now where would I find a blanket? On the bed? NO....I bet that Patsy put one in the dryer, I will just take it from there." Anyway, do you not see just how ridiculous that sounds? There was no intruder....period.

 

[Holdontoyourhat]

Yeah, because when John was dictating to Patsy what to write in the ransom letter, JB was already dead...thats why there is no mention of her being returned safely. Its pretty hard to return a dead child safely.

Thats your theory.

As far as I'm concerned, the presence of foreign DNA and the absense of family DNA kinda rule out family involvement. Also, if PR had written the 2 1/2 page ransom note, she would've been arrested almost instantly. Also no history of violence on the part of any family member is quite contrary to the violence of the murder and the violence in the ransom note. A killer wrote the note. Thats my theory.

But feel free to express your opinion, thats what its all about.

 

[Ames]

Thats your theory.

As far as I'm concerned, the presence of foreign DNA and the absense of family DNA kinda rule out family involvement. Also, if PR had written the 2 1/2 page ransom note, she would've been arrested almost instantly. Also no history of violence on the part of any family member is quite contrary to the violence of the murder and the violence in the ransom note. A killer wrote the note. Thats my theory.

But feel free to express your opinion, thats what its all about.

Yep, you are right....that IS what its all about. Maybe we can actually solve this case one day!!!

 

[JMO8778]

Yeah, because when John was dictating to Patsy what to write in the ransom letter, JB was already dead...thats why there is no mention of her being returned safely. Its pretty hard to return a dead child safely. BTW...how many other victims have you ever heard of that was killed in their own home while the parents and a sibling slept just yards away? How many other victims have you ever heard of that a three page ransom note was left, even though the child lay dead in the basement of the house? You say, "If all we had was the ransom note, and JBR was never found, then how fast the perp got JBR out of the house, or what they did inside the house during the middle of the night before leaving, would seem alot less relevant". Well, the fact remains that the "perp" spent alot of time in the Ramsey house, taking JB from her bedroom, taking her to the basement, killing her, redressing her, wiping her off, wrapping her in a blanket, leaving her favorite nightgown beside of her (now HOW would a perp that was NOT a relative KNOW that was her favorite nightgown?), writing a three page ransom note, ETC.....instead of just grabbing her and getting the heck out of Dodge, before her family members woke up. Now that IS relevant! Speaking of the nightgown.....when told about it....John said..."That wasn't supposed to be there". Yeah, John...your dead daughter wasn't "supposed to be there" either. My take on that, is ....that the nightgown wasn't part of the staging....I believe that it came out of the dryer with the blanket that she was found wrapped in, attached by static cling. How would a perp...that was NOT a relative....know where to find that blanket?? PERP: "Hmmmmm....lets see. Okay, now...what should I do next? I DO have to write that three page ransom letter, but...I don't know...I just can't leave her lying there like that. I need to wrap her up in a blanket or something. Gosh, now where would I find a blanket? On the bed? NO....I bet that Patsy put one in the dryer, I will just take it from there." Anyway, do you not see just how ridiculous that sounds? There was no intruder....period.

perhaps Dru is right...those things do all point to JR.Is it more likely PR would have noticed the gown stuck to the blanket?
I reread the RN again,too.Esp. those last few lines,in ref. to 'fat cat',etc.,sound like he was trying to implicate Jeff Merrick and friends.

 

[Ames]

perhaps Dru is right...those things do all point to JR.Is it more likely PR would have noticed the gown stuck to the blanket?
I reread the RN again,too.Esp. those last few lines,in ref. to 'fat cat',etc.,sound like he was trying to implicate Jeff Merrick and friends.

Yeah, I just thought that was extremely odd (just yet ANOTHER odd behavior of the Ramsey's)....that John would say that about the nightgown..."That wasn't supposed to be there". If an intruder did it...then how would John know what was supposed to be there, and what wasn't supposed to be there?? Maybe he meant that it was out of place....even at that, JB's body was out of place too. She wasn't asleep in her bed, safe as sound...as she was SUPPOSED to have been, instead she lay dead in the basement. Personally, I think that what John said was a slip of the tongue. "That wasn't supposed to be there"....meaning....neither I nor Patsy PUT it there as part of the staging, so how the heck did it get there?? I do believe that Patsy killed JB in a rage attack, but....I also believe that John took part in the staging. Just his words alone about the nightgown..."That wasn't supposed to be there"....leads me to believe that he was involved in the staging. Its possible that he did ALL of the staging, the paintbrush handle, the garotte, the wrist ligatures, the wrapping of the body in the blanket....because Patsy couldn't bring herself to help take part in that, she had already done enough damage. JMO

 

[JMO8778]

Yeah, I just thought that was extremely odd (just yet ANOTHER odd behavior of the Ramsey's)....that John would say that about the nightgown..."That wasn't supposed to be there". If an intruder did it...then how would John know what was supposed to be there, and what wasn't supposed to be there?? Maybe he meant that it was out of place....even at that, JB's body was out of place too. She wasn't asleep in her bed, safe as sound...as she was SUPPOSED to have been, instead she lay dead in the basement. Personally, I think that what John said was a slip of the tongue. "That wasn't supposed to be there"....meaning....neither I nor Patsy PUT it there as part of the staging, so how the heck did it get there?? I do believe that Patsy killed JB in a rage attack, but....I also believe that John took part in the staging. Just his words alone about the nightgown..."That wasn't supposed to be there"....leads me to believe that he was involved in the staging. Its possible that he did ALL of the staging, the paintbrush handle, the garotte, the wrist ligatures, the wrapping of the body in the blanket....because Patsy couldn't bring herself to help take part in that, she had already done enough damage. JMO

right,another odd thing is ..the top 1/2 of JB has evidence of PR's involvment(fibers)..and JB is in her day clothes.JB's bottom 1/2 has evidence of JR's involvment(again, fibers)..and JB is in night clothes,plus underwear way too large,no socks,and her nightgown nearby.so I wonder if they both took part in the staging,yet in their frame of mind at the moment..didn't collaborate on it? or is the mis-match from part of a prior staging,or both?also,the top 1/2 of JB's injuries were meant to kill ,(I believe),no accident,while the bottom 1/2 of her is mainly the sexual assault.is it possible to make sense of this? would it be likely JB was killed by PR,so the top 1/2 of her is staged by PR,while JR is responsible for what went on on the bottom 1/2..so he takes care of that? any thoughts? could it point to a sexual assault by JR,with PR losing control and killing JB over it? (so they each take care of covering what they need to in order to protect themselves?)

 

[Ames]

right,another odd thing is ..the top 1/2 of JB has evidence of PR's involvment(fibers)..and JB is in her day clothes.JB's bottom 1/2 has evidence of JR's involvment(again, fibers)..and JB is in night clothes,plus underwear way too large,no socks,and her nightgown nearby.so I wonder if they both took part in the staging,yet in their frame of mind at the moment..didn't collaborate on it? or is the mis-match from part of a prior staging,or both?also,the top 1/2 of JB's injuries were meant to kill ,(I believe),no accident,while the bottom 1/2 of her is mainly the sexual assault.is it possible to make sense of this? would it be likely JB was killed by PR,so the top 1/2 of her is staged by PR,while JR is responsible for what went on on the bottom 1/2..so he takes care of that? any thoughts? could it point to a sexual assault by JR,with PR losing control and killing JB over it? (so they each take care of covering what they need to in order to protect themselves?)

Yep, what you are saying makes sense. I had actually forgotten about Patsy's fibers from her clothes, being entwined in the garotte, when I wrote that about John maybe being the only one involved in the staging. Patsy's fibers say otherwise...that she TOO was involved....as was John. I just don't see Patsy losing control and killing JB because John was sexually abusing her....UNLESS of course, it was a JEALOUS RAGE. If I were Patsy, it would have been John that I would have been bashing in the head, and not my child. Is it possible that Patsy was jealous of her own daughter??

 

[JusticeSeekerE]

The non-sensical ransom note's by far the easiest to make sense of. Its got to do with where it was placed, and not what it said. It would act as a tripwire for parents searching the house for their child missing from their bed, while the perp was still in the basement. Remember the RN is long-winded (you just said that) and strongly suggests to the R's not to call the police. After reading the note, anyone in their right mind wouldn't call police, right? Of course anyone whose child was kidnapped aren't going to be in thier right mind, are they.

What if they didn't call the police immediately ... What if that is why their original versions of events don't make any sense? What if Patsy did check JB's room first, then found the note? That would also explain the physical distance between the couple. John didn't want to call the police. He was a powerful business man and wanted to follow the demands of her kidnappers in fear that the note was more than just an idle threat. Patsy, however, after a period of time couldn't take it anymore and dialed 911.

There is a big debate about the end of the 911 call and Burke's voice being on it, and John supposedly saying "We aren't speaking with you" or something like that ... What if he wasn't talking to Burke? What if he was talking to Patsy because she had gone against his wishes and called police? So why lie? They thought it would look bad that they had known that JB was missing for whatever length of time and had done nothing. It was much easier to explain in the form of them waking up to get ready to fly out of town and discovering her missing then to explain that they had known for hours and had done nothing.

If this is the case they likely had an argument right before the police officer arrived concerning what they were going to tell police, which is why their stories were kind of out of whack and is also why they distanced themselves from one another. Naturally, the police knew they weren't telling the truth about something, so they naturally wondered "if they are lying about this what else to do they have to hide? Once the body was found they had no choice but to stick to their story. I mean what are you going to say "OH by the way we lied, we knew she was missing a lot earlier then what we originally told you." Why not tell the truth now? Well, if they are innocent, and they honestly don't know who killed her then telling the truth really resolves nothing and only makes them look more guilty.

Do I think the Ramsey's are hiding something, yeah, but I'm an evidence person and if there is no smoking gun their is no case in my mind. If they did kill her we will likely never be able to prove it because the police screwed up the crime scene. I have always been a fence-sitter. I'm not sure that the answer in this case is to either extreme, but somewhere in between. No, matter what side you stand on you find yourself with many more questions than answers.

 

[Solace]

What if they didn't call the police immediately ... What if that is why their original versions of events don't make any sense? What if Patsy did check JB's room first, then found the note? That would also explain the physical distance between the couple. John didn't want to call the police. He was a powerful business man and wanted to follow the demands of her kidnappers in fear that the note was more than just an idle threat. Patsy, however, after a period of time couldn't take it anymore and dialed 911.

There is a big debate about the end of the 911 call and Burke's voice being on it, and John supposedly saying "We aren't speaking with you" or something like that ... What if he wasn't talking to Burke? What if he was talking to Patsy because she had gone against his wishes and called police? But John says "we" weren't speaking to you. So who does we mean, it means him and Patsy.

So why lie? They thought it would look bad that they had known that JB was missing for whatever length of time and had done nothing. It was much easier to explain in the form of them waking up to get ready to fly out of town and discovering her missing then to explain that they had known for hours and had done nothing.

If this is the case they likely had an argument right before the police officer arrived concerning what they were going to tell police, which is why their stories were kind of out of whack and is also why they distanced themselves from one another. Naturally, the police knew they weren't telling the truth about something, so they naturally wondered "if they are lying about this what else to do they have to hide? Once the body was found they had no choice but to stick to their story. I mean what are you going to say "OH by the way we lied, we knew she was missing a lot earlier then what we originally told you." Why not tell the truth now? Well, if they are innocent, and they honestly don't know who killed her then telling the truth really resolves nothing and only makes them look more guilty.

Do I think the Ramsey's are hiding something, yeah, but I'm an evidence person and if there is no smoking gun their is no case in my mind. If they did kill her we will likely never be able to prove it because the police screwed up the crime scene. I have always been a fence-sitter. I'm not sure that the answer in this case is to either extreme, but somewhere in between. No, matter what side you stand on you find yourself with many more questions than answers.

Replied above.

 

[JusticeSeekerE]

Yep, what you are saying makes sense. I had actually forgotten about Patsy's fibers from her clothes, being entwined in the garotte, when I wrote that about John maybe being the only one involved in the staging. Patsy's fibers say otherwise...that she TOO was involved....as was John. I just don't see Patsy losing control and killing JB because John was sexually abusing her....UNLESS of course, it was a JEALOUS RAGE. If I were Patsy, it would have been John that I would have been bashing in the head, and not my child. Is it possible that Patsy was jealous of her own daughter??

Yes, there were fibers from Patsy's sweater entwined in the garrote, but keep in mind this still doesn't really mean anything. It can be explained just as easily to fit the IDI theory as it can be to fit the RDI theory. How so? The intruder picks JB up ... Patsy's fibers are on JB's clothes ... Fibers get on her killers hands/gloves where he then uses his hands to tie the garrote transferring the fibers to the garrote where they become entwined in the garrote. Do you see what I mean? There really is NO smoking gun in the case that points to the Ramseys, in fact what evidence you do have that makes the Ramsey's look bad would never hold up in court ... the defense attorney would eat the prosecution's lunch throughout the whole trial.

 

[JMO8778]

Yep, what you are saying makes sense. I had actually forgotten about Patsy's fibers from her clothes, being entwined in the garotte, when I wrote that about John maybe being the only one involved in the staging. Patsy's fibers say otherwise...that she TOO was involved....as was John. I just don't see Patsy losing control and killing JB because John was sexually abusing her....UNLESS of course, it was a JEALOUS RAGE. If I were Patsy, it would have been John that I would have been bashing in the head, and not my child. Is it possible that Patsy was jealous of her own daughter??

possible,I think.
I don't get her letting JB play alone outside either.I was a fanatic about being outside w my kids whenever they were out.There are just too many cases of kids being abducted right near their own house or in their own yard.
I don't get PR getting JB up to use the bathroom at night...perhaps she was doing some kid of cleaning up of JB ..was it from abuse,or was it abuse instead?
What I mean is that my kids were very cranky if their sleep ever got interrupted.So once they were asleep,I didn't bother them.If someone is asleep,they need sleep..that's the way I look at it.(unless they needed to be changed of course).But it could be hard to get them back to sleep.SO I don't see why PR didn't just put a pull-up on JB that night,esp. considering they had the early morning flight.To me that doesn't make any sense.
But then again,I would have also seen a specialist by then,and had her ck'ed,and gotten her treatment for it.

 

[Ames]

Yes, there were fibers from Patsy's sweater entwined in the garrote, but keep in mind this still doesn't really mean anything. It can be explained just as easily to fit the IDI theory as it can be to fit the RDI theory. How so? The intruder picks JB up ... Patsy's fibers are on JB's clothes ... Fibers get on her killers hands/gloves where he then uses his hands to tie the garrote transferring the fibers to the garrote where they become entwined in the garrote. Do you see what I mean? There really is NO smoking gun in the case that points to the Ramseys, in fact what evidence you do have that makes the Ramsey's look bad would never hold up in court ... the defense attorney would eat the prosecution's lunch throughout the whole trial.

Yep, I see what you mean. The fibers were transfered from one place to another. Nope, I don't think that the fibers alone are the smoking gun....but, I do think that the fibers, along with alot of other things about this case that doesn't make sense...(the three page ransom note, the unexplained pineapple, the Ramsey's saying that JB was sleeping when she got home from the White's...and Burke saying that she was awake, and helped to bring in presents, the calling over of the friends, even though the kidnapper plainly states in the RN for the Ramsey's to not to talk to so much as a dog, or JB would be killed, Pam, Patsy's sister, coming into the crime scene to take a few "funeral clothes", but leaving with everything except the "kitchen sink", including PASSPORTS...(box after box full of "funeral clothes"??), the fact that they didn't wake Burke up (or so they say) when they found JB "missing"...they just went in to check on him....why not wake him up to see if he had heard anything? What if the intruder was still in the house, why not wake him up, and get him out of his bedroom (afterall, the intruder could be lurking in Burke's closet or under his bed). ETC.....I could go ON AND ON). These few things that I have listed, and there are tons more...that just don't add up. Scott Peterson was convicted on LESS circumstantial evidence.

 

[BBB167893]

The vigilante justice thing may or may not apply to JBR, but is probably behind most familial kidnappings. Somebody who knows the law is not on their side, but who feels entitled to ownership or guardianship over a child. Vigilante justice.

Been reading those Medea stories again, have we?

Also, if PR had written the 2 1/2 page ransom note, she would've been arrested almost instantly.

You're obviously not familiar with Boulder "justice," HOTYH. Pete Hofstrom actually said, quote, "So what if she wrote the note? That doesn't prove murder." What people forget is the police WANTED to arrest her immediately. They were shot down by the DA. The FBI said, "Arrest them." So did the Dream Team legal advisors.

The intruder picks JB up ... Patsy's fibers are on JB's clothes ... Fibers get on her killers hands/gloves where he then uses his hands to tie the garrote transferring the fibers to the garrote where they become entwined in the garrote. Do you see what I mean?

Except there were no fibers on the body to transfer.

There really is NO smoking gun in the case that points to the Ramseys, in fact what evidence you do have that makes the Ramsey's look bad would never hold up in court ... the defense attorney would eat the prosecution's lunch throughout the whole trial.

I wouldn't bet on that.