Why not very much blood?

I hope it's okay to paste this? If not, yell and I will delete.

The following is from the book, "Perfect Murder, Perfect Town"
by Lawrence Schiller (Pages 198 through 202)

Linda Hoffman-Pugh Story

I was born in Lyons, Kansas, and my dad was a poor wheat farmer. I had three brothers and one sister. I'm the youngest, and one of my brothers is twenty-three years older than me. He's a welder, with his own construction business in Fort Morgan, Colorado.

When I was thirteen we moved to Fort Morgan because my dad wasn't doing well. He went to work for my brother as a ditch digger. My dad was an alcoholic. He died in 1986. My mother was forty-one when she had me. I have six living kids. Ten grandchildren. And a paper route.

I have my ladies, the women I work for. I have a doctor's wife in Greeley, and a lawyer. I was working for a bonded agency called Merry Maids when I met Patsy. I started with her one day a week. I was dumbfounded, the place was so huge. It was too much for one person. Soon we had four people, once a week.

Patsy was warm and kind. Just a sweet person. But she had a hard time keeping up the laundry. She was doing lots of charity work and was involved with her children's schooling.

Then I went to work for her three days a week, $72 a day. Monday, Wednesday, Friday. I'd get there at 9:00 in the morning and be gone by 3:00. That's when my daughter Ariana gets out of school. Sometimes I worked for Patsy on Saturdays and holidays. She gave me a $300 bonus at the end of my first year. That was October 27, 1996

Patsy was afraid she wasn't going to live, that her cancer would come back and she'd never live to see the children grow up. She read a lot about illness and healing. Every three months she had a checkup. She believed if she prayed, everything would be all right. Patsy admired John. He accomplished a lot. She told me that when they started out they had nothing, and they worked themselves up to where they were now.

I first met JonBenet when she was in preschool. She was home, like, half a day. Patsy called her Jonnie B. I spent half my time picking up after her. She and her brother would just leave everything on the floor-their socks, their shoes, toys, books, just everything. They were never trained to put things away properly.

I always came in the side door, and I'd walk right into the kitchen and not know where to start. Dishes all over. If they had Ovaltine, the jar would still be open. I always had to wipe the peanut butter off the counter. "I think we ought to get a hamper," I told Patsy.

"Yeah, that sounds good," she answered. But we never got one.

"Linda is not here to pick up," Patsy's mother would say.

"She's here to clean. How do you expect her to do a good job if she's picking up?"

"OK, Mom, I'll work it out."

Patsy's clothes went into the laundry chute. I never had to pick up after John. Maybe once- a pair of shoes. Patsy changed purses once a week. She'd lay her purse ON THE SPIRAL STAIRCASE and I'd clean it out and put it in the closet. She had maybe forty of them , and even more pairs of shoes. I think the problem with the children was they didn't have any responsibility. They were spoiled.

Burke had this red Scout knife and always whittled. He'd never use a BAG or paper to catch the shavings. He'd whittle all over the place. I asked Patsy to have a talk with him. She answered, "Well I don't know what to do other than take the knife away from him." After Thanksgiving I took that knife away from him and hid it in the cupboard just outside JonBenet's room. That's how that problem was solved.

These weren't naughty children. They dressed themselves, and Patsy did JonBenet's hair. All her daughter's clothes were organized in drawers. Turtlenecks in one drawer, pants in another, nighties and panties in one, socks in another. Dates on all their underclothes.

"Just go away and leave me alone," JonBenet said when I tried to help her with her boots. Sometimes she acted like A SPOILED BRAT.

"No, don't you answer the door," she'd say when someone went to open it at a luncheon Patsy gave. "I'm answering the door."

JonBenet spent a lot of her time sitting on her bed watching Shirley Temple movies on her VCR. She loved them all.

She also loved being in pageants. If she didn't want to go, Patsy didn't make her. Nedra used to bring lots of things for JonBenet to wear. Nedra did most of the pageant planning. JonBenet would have to practice singing and dancing. Nedra and Patsy's sister, Pam would decorate JonBenet's shoes, her gloves, put sequins on her hats. Some dresses were made from scratch, but they had fun altering most things. They prepared differently for each pageant. Sometimes it would take a month. They were always reworking something.

JonBenet played a lot with Daphne, the White's little girl. They were real close. And Burke had his friends, the Walker and Stine children. When the Ramseys traveled, I started taking the children's dog, Jacques home with me. It would always yip, yip, yip, and I couldn't take it. Joe Barnhill, the elderly neighbor from across the street started watching Jacques, and they got attached to each other. before long the dog was always running across the street to the Barnhill's house. Jacques started staying over there, and when JonBenet wanted to see her dog, she went over and played with him.

In the summer of "96, JonBenet started wearing those diaper-type underpants-Pull-Ups. She even wore them to bed. There was always a wet one in the trash. By the end of the summer, Patsy was trying to get her to do without them. Then JonBenet started wetting the bed again. Almost every day I was there, there was a wet bed. Patsy said she wasn't going to use Pull-Ups again. She just put a plastic cover on the bed. No big deal to her. By the time I'd come in the morning, Patsy would have all the sheets off the bed and in the laundry. JonBenet's white blanket would already be in the dryer. The Ramseys had two washer-dryers-one in the basement and a stackable unit in a closet just outside JonBenet's room.

Patsy started taking a painting class, and JonBenet drew a lot with crayons and MARKERS. People and flowers. They had a big easel, but most of the time JonBenet painted on a card table in the butler's kitchen. Patsy had her paints and brushes in a white paint tote. Sometimes she asked me to take her paints down to the basement. "I don't want to see it." On the day of the Ramseys' Christmas party, I took the paint tote downstairs.

Evenings were for the family. They did homework and had dinner together. Patsy worked on school projects with the kids. She was always doing something for the children on her computer. She read to them at bedtime. Sometimes she asked me to baby-sit if she couldn't find a sitter. Patsy spent a lot of time ALONE in the house while John was away on business. She never kept a baseball bat under the bed, or Mace. Never even set the alarm. She didn't like it, because it went off accidently and it drove the police crazy.

The last month I was there, NOTHING WAS DIFFERENT. Patsy went to New York with her family and some friends. JonBenet even ice skated at Rockefeller Center. When they came back, they got ready for another pageant. Patsy was always putting things off until the last minute.

On December 23, JonBenet was playing with makeup.

"JonBenet, you are not going anywhere with all that on," Patsy told her. "You take some of it off." JonBenet did.

At one o'clock she went to play with some friends and was back by four o'clock. Late that afternoon she didn't want to wear a dress for their Christmas party. Patsy got a little agitated. Finally, JonBenet put on a velvet one with short sleeves.

I stuck around with my daughter Ariana to see Santa. We hadn't planned to stay, so Ariana wasn't dressed up. Patsy gave my daughter a Christmas sweater and a vest. Even lent her a pair of her shoes. At the last minute, Patsy wrote a little verse about Ariana for Santa to read.

At 5:30 P.M. Santa showed up. By then the Barnhills, the Fernies, the Stines, Pinky Barber, and the Whites, who came with Priscilla's parents, had all arrived. maybe eight couples and their children. Most of the men gathered by the spiral staircase. John made drinks for everybody from the butler's kitchen. The kids played in the livng room by the big christmas tree. That's where Santa read his litle verses about everyone. This year, Mrs. Claus was there too, Santa looked kind of sick.

I was supposed to come back the next day, December 24, and clean up. I called Patsy and said I couldn't. I told her I had a fight with my sister and needed some money to pay the rent. I asked Patsy for a $2,000 loan. I told her I would pay it back $50 each week. She didn't hesitate. "Sure." Said she'd leave it for me on the kitchen counter for my next regular visit on December 27.

The more I think about it, JonBenet could not have been killed by a stranger. I didn't even know THAT ROOM was there. How could a stranger know to go there? How in the world did this happen?

-Linda Hoffman
 
Camper said:
I am in a hurry now have to be somewhere soon this AM, will reflect more later today.

HOWEVER, I doubt that the Medical Examiner has ever tried to break a large artists brush before or his report might have read a bit differently.

I am still of the opinion that the device handle appears to have been cut part way through then broken in two. I would like to see the back side of that area to see it, there should be a long piece missing behind the cut area on the side that we see, IF IF my thoughts are correct.
.

Wait a minute Camper...the autopsy report says nothing at all about the diameter of the paintbrush...just the length.
Besides it's not the coroner's job to ascertain how or if the implement was broken or if it worked in the way sumrised by others (like the ligature). The coroner's only job is to examine the body and determine the cause of death.
 
RedChief said:
JonBenet's crime scene satifies the above, so to dwell on the staged aspects such as the ligature or the note must fulfill the stagers intentions. This is why the evidence is so equivocal."
Generally but not always, in a homicide case the crime scene evidence is usually unequivocal, that is most people will agree the crime was committed this way or that, that is the evidence suggests a particular interpretation to the exclusion of others.

In JonBenet's case this does not apply, it is open to many whodunnits. The predominating reason for this is that the discovered crime scene was an unfinished staging. Ideally the stager, who may not be the killer, wanted to portray JonBenet as removed from her bed, bound, sadistically sexually assaulted and killed in the basement.

I'm not suggesting that you should ignore or discount the staged evidence, simply dont give it the weight the stager intended you to aportion to it.

We can all agree that JonBenet was asphyxiated and suffered a head trauma.

This is likely to have occurred upstairs, ie sometime after her snacking session.

I "think" an accident scene was staged upstairs which included JonBenet being redressed in the red top, having her hair done in pigtails, along with other elements long since overlooked.

Alternatively this staging may not have been, its possible JonBenet was being dressed in a manner, lets say, pageant style, to satisfy someone elses wishes. And what we see is the remains of a cleanup.

RedChief said:
"Redressing" excused on grounds of modesty: Yes, if in fact, redressing occurred. But, how is redressing to be reconciled with kidnapping?
The ransom note is obviously the rationale for another staging ie a kidnapping. This points out staging was taking place, and all is not what it appears.

JonBenet's bed appeared unslept in, it had clean "Beauty and the Beast" sheets, but Linda Hoffman-Pugh stated she changed JonBenet's bed two-days prior to her murder with pink-and-white checked sheets. The white thermal blanket that was normally under those sheets was "over" her dead body! That is like her body it had been relocated to the basement.

When JonBenet was found in the basement she was wearing no socks, white pullups, white gap shirt, size-12 panties, gold neck chain with cross and additionally Two ponytails, a cloth hair tie, and Two blue elastic bands, and her pink barbie nightgown was lying close by, in her hair was a green substance from the garland on the spiral staircase, and a white thermal blanket was "over" her body. These additional items originate from upstairs. Also there were no marks from the gold chain with the cross, on her neck such as you might expect from a violent strangulation.

The basement staging was likely done in incremental stages, possibly by two different people. BlueCrab has suggested John discovered her posed indecently elsewhere in the basement, and he may have partially redressed her, even adding some staging elements.

It is not unknown for relatives to behave like this in a homicide, and could explain the Ramsey's many ambiguous statements.

The Paintbrush:
A pencil or a pen would have done the same job as the resulting paintbrush, as part of the staging, a paintbrush is just that a paintbrush, refashioned it becomes an artifact. It draws attention to itself. I suspect the paintbrush was used to initially sexually assault JonBenet, whether as part of the staging, or deliberate I am not 100% certain. If there was any semen/sperm on JonBenet's body, the paintbrush may have come in contact with it.

So was the paintbrush added so to remove forensic evidence, along with the stager understanding its significance as a signature? A full length painbrush does not lend itself to being easily manipulated whilst JonBenet lies lifeless. Either way a replica can quickly be improvised by snapping one end in your hands and place the remainder on the floor against the wall and lean on it with your foot, done properly it breaks, sometimes cleanly, other times partially with splinters. Also a full length paintbrush knotted in the middle and held above pendulum style functions well as part of an AEA device.


White Blanket:
If JonBenet's body was relocated from upstairs to downstairs via the spiral staircase, then wrapping her in a blanket seems to minimise evidence transfer, or was she simply naked? This is why in staging terms I would distinguish between the placement. "Below" suggests sexual staging, "Above" suggests hiding or covering, "Wrapping" suggests protection from evidence transfer.

Red Heart:
The orientation of the red heart, if I am correct was, normal and north to south, drawn on her left hand. This is what you might expect if she had drawn it herself. Someone else may have drawn it south to north, or upside down, with her palm facing his/her. Unless that is, if JonBenet was left-handed? Red-hearts were found elsewhere drawn on some trade magazine John had in his office.
 
I believe you are wrong about the heart drawing. Years ago, I asked every kid in this house to draw a heart on their hand, and NOT ONE faced the direction of Jonbenet's. Draw one on yourself then ask another person to draw one on you, there is ,indeed, a difference.

http://www.acandyrose.com/threepagenote.jpg
does anyone see "tears" on the tops of these pages?
 
Sissi,

I dont mind being wrong. Just the orientation should vary if its not self-drawn.
 
Does anyone else remember an interview or something similar where Patsy mentioned she often drew a heart on JB's hand when she (Patsy) was really ill? I remember her saying she did this...but can't find the reference.
 
sissi said:
I believe you are wrong about the heart drawing. Years ago, I asked every kid in this house to draw a heart on their hand, and NOT ONE faced the direction of Jonbenet's. Draw one on yourself then ask another person to draw one on you, there is ,indeed, a difference.

http://www.acandyrose.com/threepagenote.jpg
does anyone see "tears" on the tops of these pages?
Really? JonBenet's could have easily been drawn by her....
heartonhand.jpg
 
UK..I can't seem to locate a picture at the moment of the "heart in hand". It would be best if we had it to view while discussing. Could anyone link it?
IMO at the time it did seem awkwardly placed if drawn by the child.

Edit...THANKS SEEKER!!
Okay,now I remember, I had asked the kids to draw a heart in their hand, and each time the heart humps faced the side by the thumb, then I drew one in one of their hands, and it had the humps by the wrist, so I put one child on my lap and leaned over and drew the heart, then it was exactly placed as Jonbenet's.
 
BrotherMoon said:
Sex had very little to do with the crime. Lou Smit is delusional.


BrotherMoon,

It was a sexual crime. Please re-read the autopsy report which describes acute and chronic injuries to the vagina. No one of authority contends there was no sexual abuse. How do you think JonBenet's blood got into her underwear?

The sexual abuse is verified by the panel of doctors assigned to the case to make that determination. They were Dr.'s:

David Jones
James Monteleone
John McCann
Cyril Wecht
Ronald Wright
Richard Krugman
Werner Spitz
 
Check this link out, we carried a lot of different Grumbacher art supplies AND BRUSHES, they are my favorite.

http://www.grumbacherart.com/sanford/consumer/grumbacher/brushes.htm

Look at the wood colored brush on the far right, I am estimating the device handle most likely was this type and size brush.

This type of brush is used to do washes on the canvas before paint is ever applied, OR can be used for large background colors. The brush width is quite wide, and I dare any Ghengis Khan types reading here to JUST break this brush with their bare hands, they would need gargantuan strength to do so.

My educated opinion, nothing more nothing less.

The old fellow who still appears on PBS with his painting instruction, even though he has passed away, uses a regular old paint the walls brush, about 2 to 3 inches wide. He did all of his paintings on the TV show with the same old brush.

Remington, did his paintings with a chewed up match stick, when he was out with the cattle on his horse etc. Your painting ability has more to do with your artistic ability than with the brush, most often than not.

With all of that painting equipment, seems like Patsy could be rolling in money doing more painting than politics. It would be therapeudic too.

DNA testing of the entire Asian group would be a start, and expensive, and probably prohibited without explicit 'cause'.
BlueCrab, do you think any judge would allow it?



.





.
 
Camper said:
DNA testing of the entire Asian group would be a start, and expensive, and probably prohibited without explicit 'cause'.
BlueCrab, do you think any judge would allow it?


Camper,

I don't think that would be a problem. Most people would willingly allow a mouth swab to be taken. Those who refuse, if any, would be running up a red flag.
 
Have we discussed the blood on the barbie nightgown?
Was it Jonbenet's or dna x?
 
You don't consider ligature strangulation vicious? You don't consider massive head trauma vicious? (scratching my head)
 
BlueCrab said:
BrotherMoon,

It was a sexual crime. Please re-read the autopsy report which describes acute and chronic injuries to the vagina. No one of authority contends there was no sexual abuse. How do you think JonBenet's blood got into her underwear?

The sexual abuse is verified by the panel of doctors assigned to the case to make that determination. They were Dr.'s:

I thought you had learned not to direct posts at me.
 
BOO - as in a Halloween BOO, not a derogatory BOO.

:blowkiss:Have a nice day.



.
 
Camper said:
Check this link out, we carried a lot of different Grumbacher art supplies AND BRUSHES, they are my favorite.

http://www.grumbacherart.com/sanford/consumer/grumbacher/brushes.htm

Look at the wood colored brush on the far right, I am estimating the device handle most likely was this type and size brush.

This type of brush is used to do washes on the canvas before paint is ever applied, OR can be used for large background colors. The brush width is quite wide, and I dare any Ghengis Khan types reading here to JUST break this brush with their bare hands, they would need gargantuan strength to do so.

My educated opinion, nothing more nothing less.

The old fellow who still appears on PBS with his painting instruction, even though he has passed away, uses a regular old paint the walls brush, about 2 to 3 inches wide. He did all of his paintings on the TV show with the same old brush.

Remington, did his paintings with a chewed up match stick, when he was out with the cattle on his horse etc. Your painting ability has more to do with your artistic ability than with the brush, most often than not.

With all of that painting equipment, seems like Patsy could be rolling in money doing more painting than politics. It would be therapeudic too.

DNA testing of the entire Asian group would be a start, and expensive, and probably prohibited without explicit 'cause'.
BlueCrab, do you think any judge would allow it?

===================================
Wanted to add some stuff, that should have been included in my post above.

I did some reflective thinking after I did this post. I do remember now that I personally did break off my brush of this approximate size to leave a shorter 'handle' because the original handle length was TOO long. It was unwieldy for painting backgrounds OR doing a wash on the canvas. I am coming NOW to the conclusion that Patsy must have broken the brush for that same reason some time PRIOR to JonBenets death.

Breaking the end off was a tough tough job, but did make the painting and prepping of the canvas MUCH FASTER to do.

I am also doubting that she would have broken the tiny end off. I am also thinking that the broken wash brush would have been something just laying in the paint tote.

So if no painting had been done for some time, the broken brush might have gone to the bottom of the paint tote, being superceded by brushes used to paint the picture. So what perp/or person doing the COVER/ransom letter, would have known to find a 'device' handle/broken brush that was in the tote. My thinking leads me to think that only the tip end was broken the night of the murder. Just thinking, hmmm.



===================================
RedChief your post #54, I quote

"Thanks for leading us to that "goldmine" webpage. Looks like Lou Smit has it all figured out."


---->>>I think a LOT of people have it nearly all figured out, at least in their minds, with the limited information that WE all have.

I think all of us have pieces of the murder puzzle, but no one has a suntan from sitting in the Jail House Spa, YET.



.
 
Camper,

Roger that. I couldn't agree more.

The solution is in these postings scattered all around.

Your point about the brush possibly having been broken previously for some legitimate purpose is a good one. Smit did say the tip end of the handle MAY have been used; it's nowhere to be found. One is more comfortable with one's speculations about missing evidence, not so? Who can rebut them?

I still say we need to compose a list of incontrovertible facts and keep them distinctly separate from suppositions, assumptions and inferences.

Tally Ho!
 
Wow, blood on the barbie nightgown? Say it isn't true. Tell me more!



sissi said:
Have we discussed the blood on the barbie nightgown?
Was it Jonbenet's or dna x?
 
Two whom it may concern:

I think the livor mortis implies that the body HAD NOT been moved post mortem, at least not for a "long" time; and if, on the contrary, it HAD been moved after a "long" time, the perp/stager had been careful (or lucky) not to change it's orientation; i.e., not to reposition it with respect to the gravitational field, which, even in Boulder, is most likely approximately vertical.

"Sometimes I feel like a motherless child..."--anonymous
 
RedChief said:
Two whom it may concern:

I think the livor mortis implies that the body HAD NOT been moved post mortem, at least not for a "long" time; and if, on the contrary, it HAD been moved after a "long" time, the perp/stager had been careful (or lucky) not to change it's orientation; i.e., not to reposition it with respect to the gravitational field, which, even in Boulder, is most likely approximately vertical.


RedChief,

In one of my BDI theories I suggest that JonBenet likely died at around 1:18 A.M. (time of death was recorded by the killer as $118,000 in the RN), and John found her around 4:00 to 4:30 A.M. or so (about 3 hours later). Lividity sets completely in an adult after 4-12 hours after death (it sets quicker in heat), except in a child it would set sooner.

Therefore, if John found JonBenet 3 hours after death in that warm basement, lividity could have been completely set and the body could be moved without livor mortis on the body disclosing that she had been moved.

BlueCrab
 

Members online

Online statistics

Members online
173
Guests online
3,748
Total visitors
3,921

Forum statistics

Threads
591,845
Messages
17,959,925
Members
228,622
Latest member
crimedeepdives23
Back
Top