Why the DNA may NOT be important

Nedthan, I could easily believe that you are right as far as John not being involved in the staging until that morning. Do you think that Patsy's behavior prior to the friends coming over is what clued him in? He may really have believed that JB had been kidnapped till something she said or did made him realize that she had finally done something dreadful to JonBenet. Gosh, it could be that her calling over the friends in the first place is what clued him in. He read that note and I don't blame him for wanting to call in LE, but then she starts calling everyone else after the note says to talk to no one. That may have been his first clue. I can't even begin to imagine his shock then, at finding her little body in that condition. That said, I still believe he is part of the cover up and that's why he still won't talk to LE. Too afraid of going to prison.
 
DeeDee,
You stated: I CAN see the parents having some help in that regard- a friend (even a friend of JAR, who I believe WAS there Christmas day and night).

Absoultely NO evidence of any friend being over that evening, in fact the Barnes (can't remember the family they stopped and dropped a gift off at) stated the family was tired and headed home around 9:30. If they were leaving early the next morning to catch their private plane, and Patsy admitted she had more gifts to wrap, why would they have a friends stop by?

You also stated: I don't think Patsy was mentally ill per se, though I would concede some type of personality disorder. If she was Bi-Polar, I would think the episodes would have been very obvious to her husband and family and they would have intervened.

Having a personality disorder is a mental illness. Patsy may fit the Boarderline Personality Disorder. She may also have been Bi-polar and she was on a medication (forgot the name) that is taken for bi-polar. I think John may have been full aware of her disorder.

Sunnie,
I have always had a hard time with the Burke did it theory for many reasons. One the neighbors saw no lights on in the house, which meant one parent was staging a crime. I don't believe John came into the staging until that morning prior to the 911 call. There would have been NO reason for Burke to ask "What did you find" on the 911 call. Also Burke was questioned and the parents let him out of their site to stay with the neighbor. They would have never of done that if he was invovled in any way. John is not that stupid.

Lithium may be the drug you are referring to. I respectrully disagree with you, but of course have to say I am not certain I am right, but 'feel' I am correct.

I don't think Burke had anything to do with the staging whatsoever. I do however believe that Burke, either by accident or because he was afraid of JB telling on him for an action(s), hit JB. This opens the door for P & J to work together for the greater good. Sharing in the protection of Burke.
:
I also believe that Burke thought he killed JB with the hit on the head. This is why he is heard on the tape, asking what they found. Anyway, I worked all night, so if this makes no sense, maybe I can clear it up later.:waitasec:
 
bubm



I believe that excludes the Rs.

I'm afraid not, Chuck. It helps to remember that the second spot was tested many years later AFTER DNA testing methods had become more sensitive (and more likely to detect artifacts), and even then they couldn't get the full 13 markers; they had to amplify it just to get the 10, which wasn't even good enough to get into CODIS on a permanent basis (there's a reason why a lot of LE professionals discourage the use of partial DNA profiles).
 
Nedthan, this was very well said and contains all the knowledge one needs to make an informed opinion on this case.

Which Mr. Harmon seems to have lacked!

I believe Patsy's family went along with the charade because they knew the cancer was going to take her life and they did not want her to die in prison. There are still a couple of aunts alive that should be ashamed of themselves. We here at WS have shown more love for that little girl than her own aunts. Lord, help me to never believe that my needs/wants are more important than finding the killer of a child. No, I would not want someone I love to go to prison, especially if the event happened because of an accident, but I was taught to be truthful in all things. Had they been truthful, especially in Boulder, the outcome would not have been as horrible as they (or even we) imagine. I don't think Patsy would have died in prison and at least John and Burke could hold their heads up. But the Ramseys believed they were too good for justice, JonBenet was just collateral damage.

Dismally sad, Beck. But very likely.
 
DeeDee,
You stated: I CAN see the parents having some help in that regard- a friend (even a friend of JAR, who I believe WAS there Christmas day and night).

Absoultely NO evidence of any friend being over that evening, in fact the Barnes (can't remember the family they stopped and dropped a gift off at) stated the family was tired and headed home around 9:30. If they were leaving early the next morning to catch their private plane, and Patsy admitted she had more gifts to wrap, why would they have a friends stop by?


.

I didn't mean friends stopping by for a VISIT. I meant friends coming over after a frantic middle of the night phone call to HELP with covering up the "accident". These "friends" could have included lawyers and JB's pediatrician, whose treatment of Patsy after JB's death seems to me to have been done primarily to assure that his "doctor/patient" relationship (and legally guaranteed secrecy about it) extended to Patsy. I don't mean to imply that ALL the friends who came that morning also were there in the middle of the night, but there are a few who I can imagine could have been.
As far as JAR having a friend (accomplice more likely?) - again- not for a holiday visit, but JAR was not supposed to be going on the family trips. (he wasn't even supposed to be in Boulder, but as I said, I believe he was). But I can see him having a college friend staying in the house with him- this is pretty common on school holidays when the dorms are closed. Kids who live locally often have friends to stay who live far from their own homes. Though JAR lived in Georgia with his mother, this was his father's house and like a second home to him; I am sure he spent good deal of time there during the school year. Y'know- "regular access" to the home....
 
Joe I agree. Sunnie, there is no way in my mind a sucessful business man such as John Ramsey would have devised such a silly coverup complete with ransom note. That was ALL Patsy.
 
DeeDee, if there was NO evidence of an intruder, there was also NO evidence of friends. Remember this was Christmas night
 
DeeDee, if there was NO evidence of an intruder, there was also NO evidence of friends. Remember this was Christmas night

I guess this is why I am trying to "think" like the Ramseys did that morning. I think there are a lot of clues in who was called in that morning.
First clue: No Stines (I beieve they were there that night, can't explain why, just do). They were afraid to be there that morning, couldn't act good enough or to shook up to pull it off.
Second clue: The Whites, I really believe these are the people that John thought he could count on no matter what had happened and I also believe that Fleet caught on pretty quick as to what happened (Patsy wise)
Dr. Beuf: DeeDee has already said it. He HAD to establish a doctor/patient relationship with Patsy so that some things said between the two of them (in the past) could be kept secret.
The Minister: I dont think it was the Ramseys that called him. Didn't one of the other couples admit to doing it to help John and Patsy?
The Fernies: You will never convince me that Fernie didn't already know what that note said when he arrived that morning. No way he read that note through the door. I also believe that when they were discussing it with LE he let it slip about knowing what it said and that is why he made the story up about reading it through the door.
Now, none of this means they were actually there that night, but it does mean they already knew what had happened before they got there. I believe lots of calls were made that night for help and advice.
Please don't ask me why they have all kept silent for all these years. They know the actual head bash was an accident and now they are afraid of obstruction charges if they come forth. The don't feel as if they are protecting a murderer, just a mother who made a bad mistake and furthermore each of the people (the ladies, at least) had been worried about Patsy for awhile and realized that they had waited too late to intervene. Quite a bit of guilt for them to be carrying around also.
It's quite possible that Patsy called these women that night for their advice and the men knew nothing unless their wives informed them before they left for the Ramsey's that morning. Patsy needed these people around her to reinforce her belief that she was a good mother and that what happened was purely an accident. All of these people were her enablers.
 
Today we see another case in which FOREIGN DNA found on a victim is insignificant to prosecuting and convicting a murderer.

Chandra Levy case:

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/us_chandra_levy
Defense attorneys said Morales' testimony couldn't be trusted. They also pointed to DNA from an unknown male that was found on Levy's black running tights. The DNA matched neither Guandique nor Condit, and the defense said it was powerful evidence that the wrong person was on trial. Prosecutors argued the DNA was the result of contamination during the testing process.

It's too bad that Patsy Ramsey is not alive today to face the same consequences. Unfortunately Boulder had an inept police force and a whacked DAs office headed by Alex Hunter who did everything he could to protect this rich Boulder family. Had this happened in any other state, you could have bet Patsy Ramsey would have died in prision and John would still be serving a long sentence for the cover-up of this crime.

In the Levy case, all they had was a convicts testomony that Guandique told him he commited the crime and other similar crimes in which Guandique robbed women in that park, but oddly enough never killed the others. I am not saying he didn't do it, just pointing out how little they had to convict him.

Compare that to the ransom note which single handedly (no pun intended) points directly to Patsy, along with HER sweater fibers being found intertwined in the knot of the garrote. JB favorite PJ's beside her and being wrapped in her blanket. Prior sexual abuse, pineapple bowl with Patsy's fingerprints, all lead back to Patsy. Seems like a mountain of evidence compared to the Levy case.

Just thought I would leave everyone more food for thought. And a note to John Ramsey---It's not over yet. One day someone with some balls and smarts will take over the DAs office and this case will see the light of day.



Could not agree with you more. The DNA in this case means zip and Keenan/Lacy knew it. I have spoken to Jeff Shapiro and he told me that it was pretty well accepted that Patsy Ramsey did this. Even her own Pastor at the time knew she committed this. I think that she may have even confessed t this.

Jeff Shapiro did tell me though, that Patsy did live in her own private hell, and did pay for it. She knew she got away with nothing.

When Patsy died after carrying that around she had hell to look forward to.


Kelly

"There is no forgiveness without confession."
 
DeeDee, if there was NO evidence of an intruder, there was also NO evidence of friends. Remember this was Christmas night

There is evidence of an intruder-missing items from the crime scene.

Tape
Cord
Piece of paintbrush

Unknown murder weapon( the flashlight can not definitively be identified as the murder weapon).

All the items used to control and murder JB.

Items that were not found and believed to have been used-GLOVES.


The BPD and DA have stated that they are holding back information I wonder if part of that is that trash, drainage grates etc were checked and nothing found. I can not find any statements that the areas mentioned, as well as the R's vehicles, were checked for those items or any others that might be related to the crime.
 
but it does mean they already knew what had happened before they got there. I believe lots of calls were made that night for help and advice.Please don't ask me why they have all kept silent for all these years.

It makes sense only if BDI IMO.
 
Joe I agree. Sunnie, there is no way in my mind a sucessful business man such as John Ramsey would have devised such a silly coverup complete with ransom note. That was ALL Patsy.

I have one very important question for you. Why would JR not only go along with this, but hire bigger and badder lawyers to protect himself, than to protect Patsy. I also do not believe that JR would cover for PR. Pure and simple he was too selfish to take a chance on his life being compromised.

To me, the only scenario that make ANY sense, is if they were cohorts defending their son.

Are they both guilty, if they staged the crime, yes. The act of strangulation killed Jon Benet, not getting hit on the head. This makes them guilty of murder. Since they were well over 9, they could be prosecuted.

If any of there friends or the pastor knew, I only believe they would have kept the secret if Burke was responsible (or so they thought at the time.)

Madeline, I agree with you 100%. Explains so much!
 
Well,BDI wasn't my favourite theory,I always suspected JDI if RDI,but it makes the most sense,it explains most of the things that don't make so much sense in PDI and JDI theories.
And the main reason JDI was always one of my top theories is possible prior abuse.But since it's not certain I am very open to BDI theories.She wasn't raped so maybe it wasn't an adult trying to play with her.
 
Think JR is worried about what will happen to/with BR when he will no longer be there for him to keep an eye on things?
 
I always said that I think they're guilty first of all because I really don't get their behaviour.I can't be sure that it wasn't an intruder but then why oh why did they act like they did,it makes no sense!
Then we have PDI and JDI.Makes no sense at all why they would cover for each other,a loving mother covering for a sick molesting dad,a dad who already lost one daughter covering for the psycho mom?Why?makes no sense,no matter how hard I try to understand.
And then there's the garotte.It's either someone (a parent?) was very very desperate to mislead and hide OTHER bruises/damage in order to cover up for the other child OR the garotte was used in some sort of game between kids.Cause I really believe she was ALIVE when strangled and I don't see why a parent would use such a device in order to silence or kill someone,especially a child.
Burke's silence IS very telling and IMO it points away from IDI,cause if IDI why not let the cops help you remember every detail?
If PDI,why is JR forcing BR to hide,wouldn't be fair,especially now that she's dead.If PDI,let BR talk,set him free,he deserves it,otherwise he will always be under the umbrella.
If JDI,same.It's not fair to leave BR udner the umbrella only to cover for your own @ss.

But if BDI it makes sense.Of course it's in his best interest to keep his mouth shut.Forever.
 
Wow if we used the same theory that the Boulder DAs office is using in the Ramsey case with Chandra Levy’s case, Chandra’s killer would still be free and Washington DC would be waiting on CODIS to match the contaminated blood found on Chandra’s body. Just think the only reason her killer was convicted was from the testimony of another convict. In the Ramsey case there are 5 pieces of evidence that cannot be ignored.
1.) The Ransom note that matches Patsy’s writing
2.) The pineapple found in victims stomach matching that found in the bowl with Patsy’s prints
3.) The skull fracture consistent with blunt force trauma (detective Smit himself said it matched that of the flash light found at the scene), which oddly enough matched the Ramsey’s which they could not find
4.) Patsy’s Ramsey’s sweater fibers tangled in the knot of the garrote.
5.) Lack of ANY fingerprints on the ransom note yet the Ramsey’s admitted handling the note several times

Here is the simple plain facts in this case. The Ramsey’s wealth, along with the Boulder Police Departments lack of experience combined with the DA’s office headed by pompous Alex Hunter who pampered and protected the Ramsey’s helped the Ramsey’s steer clear of any charges. This case will NEVER go to trial now because the killer is already dead. This case would drain Boulder financially and frankly the IQ in that town still hovers around that of the Hare Krishna’s, hippies, and college binge drinkers who reside there (those from Colorado will get what I mean).

Perhaps it was with some hope that re-interviewing Burke Ramsey would spark some guilt in the boy for what he knows. Nine years old at the time of the crime, the kid certainly would have remembered if his sister was awake or not when they arrived home. In his original interview he stated she was. Later the story changed. He would also know about the pineapple and if that was his voice on the 911 call. I heard the original call, and I heard a boy’s voice. He asked, “What did you find”. Again, Boulder is too polite with this family. They should have drug this kid in who is now what 22? Since this is still an active and open case and given him a lie detector test. Refusal once again, would at least put pressure back on the only 2 people left in this world that know what happened to JonBenet Ramsey.

They will have to live with that for the rest of their lives. I can’t imagine they live peacefully with this knowledge. They will continue to protect Patsy Ramsey who I believe suffered from a mental illness and killed her child in a fit of rage. I can’t imagine that John or Burke Ramsey garners any amount of real respect in this world, and the disdain for their kind is not forgotten in the people who have shown remorse and love for JonBenet Ramsey, the public.

1.The writing in the note is not a match to Patsy or the State DA would have taken over already. Her matches were minimal, not enough for any expert to testify,then be crossed examined and refuting experts to testify more was different than alike. Foster isn't considered valid 'cause he wrote that note to Patsy and shot himself in the foot when he did it. The State did examine the case and refuse because there was not enough to prosecute.

2. The pineapple is unimportant only in the fact that it helps to establish time of death. Kids do get up and eat in the middle of the night, that may be the real lie here, the only thing being covered up. Your statement gave me an idea as to why Burke was so protected, besides the fact that he had his sisters murder to deal with. Maybe they were up (the kids snuck out of bed). They heard something. Burke high tails it for his bedroom thinking it is his parents and he doesn't want to get caught. JB being bolder looks around and surprises someone in the house or even LETS THEM IN. She reported to an adult that she was EXPECTING a visit from a "secret Santa" after Christmas. Burke doesn't know who the killer is he went to his bedroom then fell asleep while listening and pretending to be asleep. If JB surprised someone that could explain why she sustained such a severe blow to the head, the reaction of the perp to being surprised. They have a flashlight in hand the supposed murder weapon.

3. The Flashlight-no forensic expert will make a statement that for a fact they know the flashlight was the weapon used. The Flashlight found at crime scene was assumed to be the R's. It was on counter but French cannot state he saw it there upon first arriving. It could belong to people entering home, friends and police alike, the R's say they have one, it was a gift from Burke to John and Patsy couldn't identify it. I haven't read any testimony from John or Burke on it and can easily understand why Patsy doesn't know- it wasn't her gift, she knew of it's existence but felt no need to ever use it as she would turn over any task requiring its use to John or Burke or any other male.
She had no interest in it therefore it's exact appearance does not register with her. We should look to what John or Burke have to say about it and its identity. Any Links to further info from them about would it be appreciated.

4. I have asked about the source for the fiber evidence in the garrote and THE ONLY SOURCE ever given is an internet site. I have already been told this particular site is not correct in all it's evidence. Thomas doesn't write of it, Schiller doesn't write of it, Douglas makes no comment on it. The autopsy(on-line) only lists hair. I have looked for any corroborating source, if you have one please post links and I don't mean National Enquirer or any other tabloid, as they made up or "leaked" false stuff throughout this case.Until then I count this evidence as invalid as I can not corroborate it.

5. There are finger print smudges that are not identifiable, Patsy's identifiable fingerprints are found, Thomas states it as well as Schiller. The quality of the prints is very important. Since most people hold a note close by its edges prints are not abundant on most notes. Patsy also states to John not to touch the note so at some point she becomes aware that a crime has been committed and that the note is evidence. Even in an RDI theory she would be acting this out. Her prints were found just very limited amounts of them.


You also state you heard the ORIGINAL 911 tape and heard a young boys voice on it. You just shot yourself in the foot dude.

No one could hear it on the original and it was enhanced as it was too garbled to make out. You had to have heard an enhanced version to even know it was a young male person's voice. He later admitted he was only pretending to be asleep, something that further gave me that twist on the pineapple theory I posted above and something John Douglas said about people staying true to their character. If Burke pretended to be asleep that morning he most likely had done it before. Like a few hours earlier when he left JB downstairs with the pineapple.

It would fit an RDI or an IDI as Burke never knows if the person who killed his sister was his parents going downstairs to catch them or an IDI that JB surprises or lets in herself.


Being that he was 9 years old and the certainly that any 9 year old is observant enough to remember details that you believe he should is where you are totally off base. I have raised 3 kids and if they could tell you what their siblings were doing the night before and be accurate is a wrong assumption. The fact that his sister was murdered would disrupt any memories the more time elapsed.

If my pineapple theory is correct it would allow for the R's to still engage in criminal activity. The crime staging or lying about the pineapple. If they wake Burke after finding the RN they are afraid he will be traumatized by thinking he abandoned JB. They tell him she has been kidnapped and he is not responsible in any way in fact they don't want him to do anything except what he did already pretend to be asleep until we come get you. We are calling police and they will handle it. You know nothing about this and are to forget it. You are lucky you ran upstairs it could have been you they kidnapped instead.
This theory could work well for an RDI as the need for a RN is not to convince police but Burke it wasn't them up in the house he heard but an intruder. Works with the accidental theory as well as JB surprised JR or PR who struck her in the head as they didn't know and didn't expect the kids to be up. They did hear them downstairs and suspected to find a burglar not the kids.


You have a false sense of a person's rights when being questioned by police.
Miranda think Miranda.
You have the Right to remain silent. No one can make someone take a lie detector test, even when they were admissible in court they had to be consented to.
 
There is evidence of an intruder-missing items from the crime scene.

Tape
Cord
Piece of paintbrush

Unknown murder weapon( the flashlight can not definitively be identified as the murder weapon).

All the items used to control and murder JB.

Items that were not found and believed to have been used-GLOVES.


The BPD and DA have stated that they are holding back information I wonder if part of that is that trash, drainage grates etc were checked and nothing found. I can not find any statements that the areas mentioned, as well as the R's vehicles, were checked for those items or any others that might be related to the crime.

CathyR,

Items that were not found and believed to have been used-GLOVES.
Where exactly in the house might you expect to find the gloves?

Tape
Cord
Piece of paintbrush
intruder-missing items do you mean the intruder brought these items in with him or left without them, or something else?

There is no evidence to demonstrate there was any intruder ever in the ramsey house!

So just how can you prove there are missing items?


.
 
Just a couple of little problems with all that proof that the Ramseys had nothing to do with it. One would be the flashlight that you believe may have belonged to LE. I don't know many cops who wipe their fingerprints off the light as well as the batteries before they enter a crime scene. It may be sop, but I've never heard of it.
Also, it's not Burke's memories of that night that bother me, it's the fact that he won't talk to LE about them. Please explain that. This child exhibited some weird behavior for a nine year old starting the day he learned of his sister's death. Since you've raised three, you would know how devastated they would be if one of them died for any reason, much less murdered in their own home. Where was Burke's devastation? Oh yeah, he didn't get to go to Charlevoix. There is so much evidence against the Ramseys that in order to address each and every statement and action of theirs is almost impossible. There is only one piece of "possible" evidence against an intruder and that is the unsourced dna. The ransom note was written by Patsy and you listed the only reason she wasn't arrested. You could bring in 50 handwriting experts and 25 would say it was Patsy and the other 25 would say it wasn't. Even the inexperienced da's office in Boulder knew all that would do was give a jury "reasonable doubt". Then she walks. Even I have to say I wouldn't have went to court with that evidence. Not with her expensive, devil dog lawyers. One would really have to believe in the Ramsey's innocence to not see the handwriting on the wall here.
 
Just a couple of little problems with all that proof that the Ramseys had nothing to do with it. One would be the flashlight that you believe may have belonged to LE. I don't know many cops who wipe their fingerprints off the light as well as the batteries before they enter a crime scene. It may be sop, but I've never heard of it.
Also, it's not Burke's memories of that night that bother me, it's the fact that he won't talk to LE about them. Please explain that. This child exhibited some weird behavior for a nine year old starting the day he learned of his sister's death. Since you've raised three, you would know how devastated they would be if one of them died for any reason, much less murdered in their own home. Where was Burke's devastation? Oh yeah, he didn't get to go to Charlevoix. There is so much evidence against the Ramseys that in order to address each and every statement and action of theirs is almost impossible. There is only one piece of "possible" evidence against an intruder and that is the unsourced dna. The ransom note was written by Patsy and you listed the only reason she wasn't arrested. You could bring in 50 handwriting experts and 25 would say it was Patsy and the other 25 would say it wasn't. Even the inexperienced da's office in Boulder knew all that would do was give a jury "reasonable doubt". Then she walks. Even I have to say I wouldn't have went to court with that evidence. Not with her expensive, devil dog lawyers. One would really have to believe in the Ramsey's innocence to not see the handwriting on the wall here.

joeskidbeck,
I agree. Just because the ramsey's say something does not belong to them does not make it so.

Saying there was an absent owner, does not mean there actually was one e.g. the intruder.

Thats just a factoid invented by the IDI people who are Ramsey supporters since they believe the Ramsey statements without anything to back them up, its called bias in other places.

.
 
Joe I agree. Sunnie, there is no way in my mind a sucessful business man such as John Ramsey would have devised such a silly coverup complete with ransom note. That was ALL Patsy.

It is my strong belief that PR wrote te ransom note, John did a major part of the staging, with PR helping place the rope around JB's neck. This would explain both the fibers in the knots, the wiping down of JB's vaginal area with evidence from JR's Israeli sweater, as well as why JR and PR continued to lawyer up and protect their son.

Think JR is worried about what will happen to/with BR when he will no longer be there for him to keep an eye on things?

Not in any way whatsoever. Burke has been well taught to avoid talking to LE. All he has to do is keep to his fathers agenda, stay well protected by lawyers and he will forever on this earth be protected.

I always said that I think they're guilty first of all because I really don't get their behaviour.I can't be sure that it wasn't an intruder but then why oh why did they act like they did,it makes no sense!
Then we have PDI and JDI.Makes no sense at all why they would cover for each other,a loving mother covering for a sick molesting dad,a dad who already lost one daughter covering for the psycho mom?Why?makes no sense,no matter how hard I try to understand.
And then there's the garotte.It's either someone (a parent?) was very very desperate to mislead and hide OTHER bruises/damage in order to cover up for the other child OR the garotte was used in some sort of game between kids.Cause I really believe she was ALIVE when strangled and I don't see why a parent would use such a device in order to silence or kill someone,especially a child.
Burke's silence IS very telling and IMO it points away from IDI,cause if IDI why not let the cops help you remember every detail?
If PDI,why is JR forcing BR to hide,wouldn't be fair,especially now that she's dead.If PDI,let BR talk,set him free,he deserves it,otherwise he will always be under the umbrella.
If JDI,same.It's not fair to leave BR udner the umbrella only to cover for your own @ss.

But if BDI it makes sense.Of course it's in his best interest to keep his mouth shut.Forever.

Which I truly believe he will. In this instance, silence is golden! Believe it or not, I truly do not believe that BR thinks of himself as guilty of JB's death. He didn't IMHO choke her. That was the 'staging'.
 

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