Why was the GJ looking into the plane?

David Rogers

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hursday November 12, 1998 • No details are known about possible witnesses.

Other Observed Activity: Records subpoenaed by the grand jury from the company that maintained John Ramsey's private plane at Jefferson County Airport were delivered to the Justice Center by an employee of Stevens Aviation.
 

UKGuy

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Maybe checking John's movements on Christmas?


fr brown,
More than likely.

John-Ramsey BPD Interview April 30 1997, Excerpt
TT: Okay. Who packed your bags to go out to Charleviox?
JR: Uh, well Patsy packed, I think, the kids bags, and was just going to take a dock kit.
TT: Okay . . .
JR: Because I had another full set of clothes up there.
TT: Okay. So you guys don’t have to take a lot of luggage or anything like that, uh?
JR: We packed some presents that we were going to take up the day before . . .
TT: Where were those presents at?
JR: Well I taken up, I grabbed them Christmas morning I think, or late Christmas morning and I took them up to the airport Christmas day . . .
TT: So they were already out of the house . . .
JR: They were out of the house and in the airplane, preloaded.
TT: Okay. What kind of, what type of, you just carried a little small bath kid, shaving kit I guess; uh, how big of a suitcase does Patsy carry for the kids and herself?
JR: Oh, I don’t remember, I remember there were some suitcases sitting out by the back stairs, uh usually it’s three of them, bags.
TT: Normally does take any suitcases, full size big suitcases, or anything like that?

.
 

fr brown

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I've often wondered why John wanted to go to Michigan for such a brief time...in the middle of winter. (Patsy did not want to go.) It seems like it would have to be more than his son getting a cheap flight to Minneapolis.

But until today I'd never thought about what a palaver all this was going to be: Thursday, fly from Colorado to Minneapolis, land briefly in Minneapolis, and then continue to Charlevoix; Friday, relax--or fly back to Colorado if John is right; Saturday, fly from Michigan to Colorado (because that's what Patsy says they were going to do and it just makes sense, I think); Sunday, fly from Colorado to Orlando, Fl, then take a bus to Cape Canaveral (1 hour) to be on the cruise ship that night, the 29th, Patsy's birthday.


"JOHN RAMSEY: Well the plan was to leave the morning of the 26th. I had an airplane at the time that was on charter through a charter company run by Mike Archuleta, who is also a friend; became a friend. Mike was going to fly us that morning of the 26th from Jeffco to Minneapolis. We were going to get into Minneapolis before 11 and my older kids were going to arrive from Atlanta. From Atlanta to Minneapolis we were going to pick them up and then go on to Charlevoix. And we did it that way because Charlevoix was a difficult place to get to with airlines. And we were flying from Jeffco to Charlevoix, you fly literally almost fly over Minneapolis. So that would be real easy for us to stop in Minneapolis and pick them up. And they had really inexpensive tickets to get there on the airlines. So that was the plan. They we were going to stay there for I think it was till Friday. I forget what day the 26th was [It was Thursday]. (INAUDIBLE) but we were going to stay for a couple days and come back to Boulder around Friday. Then I think the next morning on Saturday, we were going to leave for this Big Red Boat trip with just JonBenet, Burke and Patsy and me."
 

UKGuy

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The purported flight the day after Christmas @0700 doesn’t pass the smell test. Neither does their whole itinerary/times locations. JR called his pilot numerous times before 0700 that day. Why?


Cottonstar,
There is no apparent link between the R's pre-planned vacation flight and JonBenet's death, other than JR attempting to rearrange the flight schedule the morning JonBenet was found missing.

Both JR and PR were willing to leave JonBenet behind, possibly including Burke, and flee interstate by plane so to avoid being arrested.

.
 

UKGuy

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Add to it that JR said he loaded the plane with items on Christmas Day, LE would want to know what it was.

TeaTime,
It could be PR tweaked her vacation preparations, i.e. late Christmas Night, so to cover her removing and cleaning forensic evidence?

.
 

Tadpole12

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I've often wondered why John wanted to go to Michigan for such a brief time...in the middle of winter. (Patsy did not want to go.) It seems like it would have to be more than his son getting a cheap flight to Minneapolis.

But until today I'd never thought about what a palaver all this was going to be: Thursday, fly from Colorado to Minneapolis, land briefly in Minneapolis, and then continue to Charlevoix; Friday, relax--or fly back to Colorado if John is right; Saturday, fly from Michigan to Colorado (because that's what Patsy says they were going to do and it just makes sense, I think); Sunday, fly from Colorado to Orlando, Fl, then take a bus to Cape Canaveral (1 hour) to be on the cruise ship that night, the 29th, Patsy's birthday.


"JOHN RAMSEY: Well the plan was to leave the morning of the 26th. I had an airplane at the time that was on charter through a charter company run by Mike Archuleta, who is also a friend; became a friend. Mike was going to fly us that morning of the 26th from Jeffco to Minneapolis. We were going to get into Minneapolis before 11 and my older kids were going to arrive from Atlanta. From Atlanta to Minneapolis we were going to pick them up and then go on to Charlevoix. And we did it that way because Charlevoix was a difficult place to get to with airlines. And we were flying from Jeffco to Charlevoix, you fly literally almost fly over Minneapolis. So that would be real easy for us to stop in Minneapolis and pick them up. And they had really inexpensive tickets to get there on the airlines. So that was the plan. They we were going to stay there for I think it was till Friday. I forget what day the 26th was [It was Thursday]. (INAUDIBLE) but we were going to stay for a couple days and come back to Boulder around Friday. Then I think the next morning on Saturday, we were going to leave for this Big Red Boat trip with just JonBenet, Burke and Patsy and me."

fr, the Ramseys were pressed for time, and
I guess they needed good weather guaranteed,
for their return trip Friday.

flight calculator
Flight Calculator - Planemasters
 

midwest mama

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fr, the Ramseys were pressed for time, and
I guess they needed good weather guaranteed,
for their return trip Friday.

flight calculator
Flight Calculator - Planemasters
Excellent point....the chances of the Rs having flying conditions at that time of the year to insure they would be able to stay on schedule to get them on their cruise would have been very iffy. Of course, they had the means to ditch the small plane in favor of a big commercial flight, which might have had a better chance in the event of bad weather. But, I can attest to this also, having been to Charlevoix that in the event of a winter storm, road travel in and out to a commercial airport might have been tricky too.

Now I wonder if the reason the R big kids were to take a commercial flight was because JR never really planned the private plane for anything other than his own escape.

If PR would not have called 911 and instead took the ransom note as it read, could JR have convinced her to take Burke and have Archuleta fly them to meet his other kids in Minneapolis where they would instead be flown to Atlanta...into the company of family, and not to Charlevoix at all.

Maybe because "the delivery will be exhausting" (of the ransom money), JR could have easily convinced PR he had to use his plane for delivery of the ransom, so she would agree to the corporate jet flight.

It never made sense to me that JR was at the airport on Christmas day for hours readying his plane, and Patsy was using plastic bags for clothing for the kids so they wouldn't go overweight stuffing his other kids with their bags into John's plane, then having Archuleta pilot them?

A pilot usually "readies" his own plane. Yes, JR had a vision problem, but it NEVER stopped him from piloting his own plane on many other occasions IIRC. But, if JR all the while actually planned to have Archuleta get PR and Burke out of his way, it stands to reason he would have spent those hours readying his own plane for himself to use to "deliver the ransom". And if anyone in the hangar saw him leaving alone later on, how convenient to simply say he had a business delay, and was going on now to join the rest of his family.... especially if he was carrying a blue Samsonite suitcase with him......
 

UKGuy

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Excellent point....the chances of the Rs having flying conditions at that time of the year to insure they would be able to stay on schedule to get them on their cruise would have been very iffy. Of course, they had the means to ditch the small plane in favor of a big commercial flight, which might have had a better chance in the event of bad weather. But, I can attest to this also, having been to Charlevoix that in the event of a winter storm, road travel in and out to a commercial airport might have been tricky too.

Now I wonder if the reason the R big kids were to take a commercial flight was because JR never really planned the private plane for anything other than his own escape.

If PR would not have called 911 and instead took the ransom note as it read, could JR have convinced her to take Burke and have Archuleta fly them to meet his other kids in Minneapolis where they would instead be flown to Atlanta...into the company of family, and not to Charlevoix at all.

Maybe because "the delivery will be exhausting" (of the ransom money), JR could have easily convinced PR he had to use his plane for delivery of the ransom, so she would agree to the corporate jet flight.

It never made sense to me that JR was at the airport on Christmas day for hours readying his plane, and Patsy was using plastic bags for clothing for the kids so they wouldn't go overweight stuffing his other kids with their bags into John's plane, then having Archuleta pilot them?

A pilot usually "readies" his own plane. Yes, JR had a vision problem, but it NEVER stopped him from piloting his own plane on many other occasions IIRC. But, if JR all the while actually planned to have Archuleta get PR and Burke out of his way, it stands to reason he would have spent those hours readying his own plane for himself to use to "deliver the ransom". And if anyone in the hangar saw him leaving alone later on, how convenient to simply say he had a business delay, and was going on now to join the rest of his family.... especially if he was carrying a blue Samsonite suitcase with him......

midwest mama,
It never made sense to me that JR was at the airport on Christmas day for hours readying his plane, and Patsy was using plastic bags for clothing for the kids so they wouldn't go overweight stuffing his other kids with their bags into John's plane, then having Archuleta pilot them?
ITA. This detail must be a hint to something else going on, i.e. why does PR not have her stuff ready to be loaded, why the requirement for another load along with kids, early in the morning?

A pilot usually "readies" his own plane. Yes, JR had a vision problem, but it NEVER stopped him from piloting his own plane on many other occasions IIRC. But, if JR all the while actually planned to have Archuleta get PR and Burke out of his way, it stands to reason he would have spent those hours readying his own plane for himself to use to "deliver the ransom". And if anyone in the hangar saw him leaving alone later on, how convenient to simply say he had a business delay, and was going on now to join the rest of his family.... especially if he was carrying a blue Samsonite suitcase with him......
Does all this mean that JonBenet's homicide was premeditated or something else altogether ?

.
 

midwest mama

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midwest mama,

ITA. This detail must be a hint to something else going on, i.e. why does PR not have her stuff ready to be loaded, why the requirement for another load along with kids, early in the morning?


Does all this mean that JonBenet's homicide was premeditated or something else altogether ?

.
midwest mama,

ITA. This detail must be a hint to something else going on, i.e. why does PR not have her stuff ready to be loaded, why the requirement for another load along with kids, early in the morning?


Does all this mean that JonBenet's homicide was premeditated or something else altogether ?

.
I have no problem believing that JR could have preplanned JBs murder thinking that her molestation would soon be discovered and either place him (or JAR) in a devastating position.

After reading TOSOS it became very clear to me that JR suffered a grave emotional disturbance after Elizabeth was killed and, still being on medication related to that trauma when JB was killed, may have easily slipped into a multi delusional existence allowing him to think that JB could only become better off once " she was with Beth" (his words) and the molestation could be covered up once and for all, saving him (and /or JAR) from scrutiny.

Irrespective of the how, why or wherefore I remain JDI...firmly.
 

Cottonstar

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It’s quite interesting that after Fleet White had dropped off BR at his place, he placed a call at 8:00am, to Pam Archuleta(the pilots wife) and questioned her about her husband and the flight.

FW was playing detective early, and for good reason.
 

UKGuy

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I have no problem believing that JR could have preplanned JBs murder thinking that her molestation would soon be discovered and either place him (or JAR) in a devastating position.

After reading TOSOS it became very clear to me that JR suffered a grave emotional disturbance after Elizabeth was killed and, still being on medication related to that trauma when JB was killed, may have easily slipped into a multi delusional existence allowing him to think that JB could only become better off once " she was with Beth" (his words) and the molestation could be covered up once and for all, saving him (and /or JAR) from scrutiny.

Irrespective of the how, why or wherefore I remain JDI...firmly.

midwest mama,
Well Stuff, as they say, was going on. IMO JDI is a better bet than PDI, JR leaves little forensic evidence behind whilst Patsy is all over the wine-cellar, some staging that !

.
 

UKGuy

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It’s quite interesting that after Fleet White had dropped off BR at his place, he placed a call at 8:00am, to Pam Archuleta(the pilots wife) and questioned her about her husband and the flight.

FW was playing detective early, and for good reason.


Cottonstar,
Nice point. Looks like FW knew from not seeing JonBenet on his first visit, yet she appears magically for JR on his second visit that JR was implicated,

FW has to be thinking : has it all been planned and staged in advance, was I setup?


.
 

ArchangelXFactor

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I know this is a bit old, but might build more creedance to what was said about the airplane thing being normal. I'm from Charlevoix and I lived there, my family does still, at the time all this happened (90s-forward).

So, at that time especially, the only way to really fly in was to Detroit and drive the 5 hrs (in the snow) up there. The last 1.5 hrs has a lot of blind curves and black ice. Anyone with money and the means flew into the Charlevoix Municipal Airport. You can also fly in closer now, but there is still that drive and deer fatalities are common. They are very large..I hit 3 in 3 years.

Most people from there don't talk about the Ramseys; many don't even know about them. We try not to waste our time on tourists because they are mostly entitled and difficult. Plus people assume you know they mean THOSE Ramseys. There is a well known family in town that owns several businesses, so in a our town, you gotta be more specific. My Dad mentioned Jon Ramsey once because he ran for a local public office (Sheriff maybe?) and he thought it was quite ridiculous. No matter what it was, he lost.
 

Dragognosis

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"We try not to waste our time on tourists because they are mostly entitled and difficult ..."

To digest?
 

ILikeToBendPages

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especially if he was carrying a blue Samsonite suitcase with him......

What would they do with JonBenet if she was in there? Private burial, cremation?
 
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