Identified! WI - Delafield, WhtMale, UP7632, car stolen, lighter, Sep'77 - John Lindberg Scott

[masnitram]

I think he is definitely closer to 25 years old. As it was mentioned earlier he has a lot of chest hair and looking at his face, it doesn't look the the face of a teenager. You would think with the dental plate he'd be much easier to identify. It is definitely something that would be mentioned in a missing persons report I would think. That's a pretty significant detail to leave out.

Thank you for bringing that point up casseole; I spent an hour on the phone with the detective yesterday (I have 4 pages of notes). He stated that he has had forensic scientists, anthropoligists, and others concur that JD was more then likely between 22-26 years of age.

The dental plate was noted, again however it was not noted what teeth the plate was for other then "Upper partial denture plate"

 

[carbuff]

I think he is definitely closer to 25 years old. As it was mentioned earlier he has a lot of chest hair and looking at his face, it doesn't look the the face of a teenager. You would think with the dental plate he'd be much easier to identify. It is definitely something that would be mentioned in a missing persons report I would think. That's a pretty significant detail to leave out.

Not necessarily, depending on what kind of plate it was. If it was just a partial bridge for two front teeth, and he was from rural west/midwest, where fights, football, and getting thrown off horses are common, the person reporting him missing might not have thought it was important.

 

[casseole]

I think regardless of where he wore the plate it would definitely be noted. Maybe there is some way to get the local paper to run a " 33 years later, still unidentified" article or something... might refresh some memories.

 

[Cubby]

masnitram, great job on all the info you've been able to provide. I can't seem to find the article which has been mentioned about the clothing store in Wheaton, IL.

I looked up the address and found it is on Hale.
http://www.dexknows.com/business_profiles/gaede_s_mens_and_womens_apparel-b179689

I'm very local to this area, though not in Wheaton myself.

Here is what I can offer about the immediate area near Hale in Wheaton.
This is very near Wheaton Bible College.
The shopping area is not a big shopping area. It's a smaller much older downtown shopping area which would mostly be used by locals. (the towns along the train stops are the ones which have 'real' downtown area's).
It is also very near the Illinois Prairie Path which is used for biking or walking. This was at one time a single track train route of somekind. It's been a path since the 70's. I used to ride through Wheaton all the time as a kid.
Also near by is the train station which is now called Union Pacific/West but in the 70's was called the Chicago NorthWestern.
http://metrarail.com/metra/en/home/maps_schedules/metra_system_map/up-w/station.WHEATON.html
The train currently runs west to Elburn, but the last two stops, La Fox and Elburn were added long after the 70's. Geneva, IL would have been the furthest west stop in the 70's.


For this JD to purchase clothing in this area is odd to me. It is not an area with many clothing stores... nor is it near what is considered a main shopping area. The only reason I can think of for this young man to have purchased clothing here was either a stop on the train and getting some kind of assistance from someone at the Wheaton Bible college? When I say it is hardly a shopping area I've been local to this area all my life and had never heard of this store. It is not near the local malls nor was it along any of the main roads which might have a K-Mart or similar style store which was around in the 70's. Though those types of stores would have been appx a 10 min drive from this location in Wheaton.

Now, back in the 60's or 70's there was a Sunnyside boys home in Wheaton.. but I would have to do some digging for exact location. I believe it was on Orchard but closer to Butterfield/Rt 56 - and I think our JD is older than someone who might have been in this boys home.

Just food for thought.... Not sure if it helps or not but thought I would share.

ETA: I wonder if the bike was stolen too.

I think the Wheaton Library is not too far from this location either. Did they say which library the library books were from?

 

[masnitram]

I think regardless of where he wore the plate it would definitely be noted. Maybe there is some way to get the local paper to run a " 33 years later, still unidentified" article or something... might refresh some memories.

The latest link for the UID on Namus doesn't mention the upper denture plate; the other links for him do make mention of it.

I do agree with you that a story should be run regarding the JD considering he did possess some good identifiers (denture plate, lighter with an inscription, etc...). I'll bounce that idea off of the detective and see what he says.

* I am sorry, I mis-read your point about the denture plate. Yes, it would be great for that fact to be in a missing persons report; however I can second what Carbuff mentioned too about the possibility of that being left out in a report. I too have relatives who have them, but because of how long they've worn the denture plates...you kind of forget they're even there

 

[carbuff]

I think regardless of where he wore the plate it would definitely be noted. Maybe there is some way to get the local paper to run a " 33 years later, still unidentified" article or something... might refresh some memories.

Oh, it should have been noted. I just meant I can see why somebody might have overlooked it. Especially if it wasn't a parent who made the "missing" report.

The idea for an article is a good one.

 

[masnitram]

masnitram, great job on all the info you've been able to provide. I can't seem to find the article which has been mentioned about the clothing store in Wheaton, IL.

I looked up the address and found it is on Hale.
http://www.dexknows.com/business_profiles/gaede_s_mens_and_womens_apparel-b179689

I'm very local to this area, though not in Wheaton myself.

Here is what I can offer about the immediate area near Hale in Wheaton.
This is very near Wheaton Bible College.
The shopping area is not a big shopping area. It's a smaller much older downtown shopping area which would mostly be used by locals. (the towns along the train stops are the ones which have 'real' downtown area's).
It is also very near the Illinois Prairie Path which is used for biking or walking. This was at one time a single track train route of somekind. It's been a path since the 70's. I used to ride through Wheaton all the time as a kid.
Also near by is the train station which is now called Union Pacific/West but in the 70's was called the Chicago NorthWestern.
http://metrarail.com/metra/en/home/maps_schedules/metra_system_map/up-w/station.WHEATON.html
The train currently runs west to Elburn, but the last two stops, La Fox and Elburn were added long after the 70's. Geneva, IL would have been the furthest west stop in the 70's.


For this JD to purchase clothing in this area is odd to me. It is not an area with many clothing stores... nor is it near what is considered a main shopping area. The only reason I can think of for this young man to have purchased clothing here was either a stop on the train and getting some kind of assistance from someone at the Wheaton Bible college? When I say it is hardly a shopping area I've been local to this area all my life and had never heard of this store. It is not near the local malls nor was it along any of the main roads which might have a K-Mart or similar style store which was around in the 70's. Though those types of stores would have been appx a 10 min drive from this location in Wheaton.

Now, back in the 60's or 70's there was a Sunnyside boys home in Wheaton.. but I would have to do some digging for exact location. I believe it was on Orchard but closer to Butterfield/Rt 56 - and I think our JD is older than someone who might have been in this boys home.

Just food for thought.... Not sure if it helps or not but thought I would share.

ETA: I wonder if the bike was stolen too.

I think the Wheaton Library is not too far from this location either. Did they say which library the library books were from?

Thank you Cubby! All good points ...If you don't mind I'd like to pass this info to the detective. From my notes I don't see anything regarding where the books came from...I will be sure to ask.

Nothing was found out regarding the bike. The police did try and track the serial #'s and scoured police reports to no avail.

Gaede's closed down in 2007 or 2008 after 53 years in business.

 

[Cubby]

You're more than welcome to pass it along to the detective.

I did see that the store closed. Also saw, but didn't read, there is an April 2010 article which mentions the owners of the clothing store are in the Lions club.

If this young man was passing through and tight on cash, this is not a store he would have shopped at. There was a Turnstyle which later became a Venture only about 10 min or so North of this location. There was also a KMart which is now a huge church. These would have been along Rt 64 or North Ave. There are also lots of car dealers not sure if they were there in the 70's - maybe Packey Webb Ford on Roosevelt Rt 38 in Wheaton. I thought maybe car porter? Or maybe where ever he took off from he took everyones keys?

(I'm not old enough to remember the Turnstyle, lol.... but remember it being Venture)

more to come....

 

[Cubby]

Whoops I meant to say I think this John Doe is too old to have been at the Sunnyside boys home but maybe not. I don't know much about the boys home other than it is now something else. I will find the address....

 

[Cubby]

Trying the map link again with the address of the clothing store.

http://maps.google.com/maps?hl=en&q....866205,-88.106081&spn=0.006727,0.021887&z=16

Good, it worked this time. You can see both the train station and Illinois Prairie path are very near this location. The Bible College is just east of this location... and a little north is North Ave/ Rt 64 where the Kmart/Turnstyle type stores were. A little south is Roosevelt/Rt 38 where there are several car dealers.

 

[Cubby]

Had the name of the boys home wrong. It is currently called Sunny Ridge Family Center. I know it used to house trouble male teens in the late 60's early 70's because my former roommate was there as a teen. I don't know much about the place or how long they housed troubled teens but this might be something the detective could inquire about as well.

Sunny Ridge Family Center
2S426 Orchard Rd, Wheaton, IL 60189

 

[masnitram]

Had the name of the boys home wrong. It is currently called Sunny Ridge Family Center. I know it used to house trouble male teens in the late 60's early 70's because my former roommate was there as a teen. I don't know much about the place or how long they housed troubled teens but this might be something the detective could inquire about as well.

Sunny Ridge Family Center
2S426 Orchard Rd, Wheaton, IL 60189

Awesome! I will pass that along to him.

I also noticed that Gaede's did sell womens clothing too, I will ask again about the womens clothes found in the car even though from my notes he said there wasn't much in the report about them.

While I'm just speculating, I am wondering if "Lauri" was in Wisconsin and "John" really needed to get to her "quickly". If he was troubled, and in fact a teenager, maybe "John" too was from WI but due to being a trouble maker was sent to Illinois. Perhaps his plan was to win her over again with some new/expensive formal outfits. This leads me to wonder if "John" was distraught over a break-up from "Lauri" and was "out of his mind" over it and took a fatal last ditch effort to be with her...

 

[Cubby]

Also, the old dupage county courthouse was in downtown Wheaton and used until 1990. Looks like the address is 201 Reber Street.
(off an OT but interesting The first execution by electrocution was sentenced here in 1931)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DuPage_County_Courthouse



I've never really 'wandered' around downtown Wheaton. Outside of near the college and the very immediate area's near the Prairie path.

The UID may have been passing through, may have been in trouble. I tend to think he might have been in trouble because a local could have taken the train from Wheaton into Chicago and then taken another train up north towards Gurnee. Unless of course he did that and then stole a bike up north in the Gurnee area.

I do think the choice of location/store to purchase clothing from might be a key clue. Whatever reason he was here, someone had to offer him some kind of charity to have purchased clothing at that particular store.

jmo

eta: I do think he was trying to get back to Wisconsin for some particular reason. Very well may be his girl. IIRC Lighters or engraved lighters were kind of a popular gift to give a guy back in the 70's for the teen or maybe early 20's crowd? I don't recall specific age groups but do recall that being a gift when engraving was the in thing.


Ah, the old county court house is a 2 minute drive to the clothing store. Hmmmm
http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&source=s_q&hl=en&geocode=FTDMfgIdRaK_-inp4LUEYlQOiDFTA8Ljf5AboQ%3BFRfSfgIdRJO_-ilB-FqUilQOiDGa-MK5mW0KKA&q=201+reber+street+to+124+N+Hale,+Wheaton,+IL+60187&sll=41.865806,-88.107798&sspn=0.006727,0.021887&g=124+N+Hale+St,+Wheaton,+DuPage,+Illinois+60187&ie=UTF8&ll=41.864959,-88.105266&spn=0.001682,0.003439&t=h&z=18&saddr=201+reber+street&daddr=124+N+Hale,+Wheaton,+IL+60187

 

[Cubby]

masnitram

Since the old county courthouse -which I think housed the jail, will have to look -is only 2 min from the clothing store if I were the detective I would see if I could get a list of released inmates or bookings for the week or weeks prior to Sept 14 1977. I'm not sure how far I would go back prior to the 14th, but perhaps this John Doe was recently released from being booked (if not sentenced for something) and had hung out in the immediate area for a bit receiving some charity for new clothing prior to trying to head back to WI.

just a thought.

 

[Cubby]

Still trying to confirm the old DuPage County Courthouse in downtown Wheaton on Reber also housed the jail.

I did confirm the current jail was built in the early 1980's 81' and opened in 83. Current court house not until 90's....

I will try and confirm the exact location of the jail ( as of 1977 ) as I really do believe it is possible this UID might have been booked and released on something which could answer why he was in downtown Wheaton and possibly why he would make a clothing purchase at such an odd place.

 

[masnitram]

Still trying to confirm the old DuPage County Courthouse in downtown Wheaton on Reber also housed the jail.

I did confirm the current jail was built in the early 1980's 81' and opened in 83. Current court house not until 90's....

I will try and confirm the exact location of the jail ( as of 1977 ) as I really do believe it is possible this UID might have been booked and released on something which could answer why he was in downtown Wheaton and possibly why he would make a clothing purchase at such an odd place.

I think you're onto something Cubby! Everything seems to fit into place when you consider the jail/courthouse is a "hop-skip-and-a-jump" from the former clothing store.

I'm familiar with the train station/route you're talking about. I'm from about 45 min north of Gurnee and the train station in Sturtevant, WI is a current Amtrak hub; along with the station in Kenosha, WI.

If he was in route to Lauri and INTENDED to get off 1-94 at Golf RD in Delafield...that isn't an unreasonable route to other area towns like Okauchee Lake, Oconomowoc, Hartland.

Of course if his intent wasn't to exit there...1-94 is well...yeah...that opens up a very large unknown area and possibly not tied to Wisconsin at all.

It is possible that he was booked/released etc...and had money on him. The detective did note that JD did have $21 in his wallet, just read my notes again and didn't mention that prior, maybe he had much more while in Wheaton for whatever reason...then went shopping etc... The whole Wheaton to Gurnee to stealing a car is perplexing....plus the card from the RV place on the stateline thrown in for good measure. I'm going to map that out a bit later tonight...I have an event to get to...

 

[Cubby]

But wasn't the car stolen in Zion? Or was it stolen from Gurnee? Also, it is possible he stole the bike from near the train station - if he took a train - and there were no buses or other public transportation from the train to his intended destination. (usually lots of bikes near train stations..)

Stealing a car might have been just an opportunity he stumbled upon though stealing a car wasn't planned. I imagine an early 60's car was easy to hot wire? (isn't that what it was called?) I think it is possible he could have stolen a bike to use to get to? and perhaps along the route saw the car and ditched the bike. Later running from LE because he didn't want to get in trouble again and thought perhaps he could outrun LE due to the fog.

I really can not over emphasize how much that particular clothing store stands out as the oddest place for soemeone who would steal a car to purchase clothing. If in fact that is the location the clothing was purchased.

There are some resale stores in that immediate area curently and I am sure there were likely some in that area in the past. Those little downtown area's have always been well known for resale shops a far back as the 70's.(In fact I vaguely remember my mom taking us to a resale shop in downtown Wheaton sometime in the 70's) If he just needed clothing he likely could have shopped at that type of place. Why the new clothes at a more expensive shop? I can only think to make a new start and get back home/to his girl.

I think WI is a likely hometown or location for his gal, because he could have taken the Amtrak further north if not right? I'm not familiar with Amtrak or the trains going north.... so these are just outloud thoughts. Plus why else would he have the RV business card?

hth

 

[Cubby]

I should probably note by saying current above for the jail/court house that means the current locations. Not necessarily the current buildings. (just to be specific).

 

[masnitram]

But wasn't the car stolen in Zion? Or was it stolen from Gurnee? Also, it is possible he stole the bike from near the train station - if he took a train - and there were no buses or other public transportation from the train to his intended destination. (usually lots of bikes near train stations..)

Stealing a car might have been just an opportunity he stumbled upon though stealing a car wasn't planned. I imagine an early 60's car was easy to hot wire? (isn't that what it was called?) I think it is possible he could have stolen a bike to use to get to another train? and perhaps along the route saw the car and ditched the bike. Later running from LE because he didn't want to get in trouble again and thought perhaps he could outrun LE due to the fog.

I really can not over emphasize how much that particular clothing store stands out as the oddest place for soemeone who would steal a car to purchase clothing. If in fact that is the location the clothing was purchased.

There are some resale stores in that immediate area curently and I am sure there were likely some in that area in the past. Those little downtown area's have always been well known for resale shops a far back as the 70's.(In fact I vaguely remember my mom taking us to a resale shop in downtown Wheaton sometime in the 70's) If he just needed clothing he likely could have shopped at that type of place. Why the new clothes at a more expensive shop? I can only think to make a new start and get back home/to his girl.

I think WI is a likely hometown or location for his gal, because he could have taken the Amtrak further north if not right? I'm not familiar with Amtrak or the trains going north.... so these are just outloud thoughts. Plus why else would he have the RV business card?

hth

The car was stolen in Gurnee. The RV shop is on Russell RD, just a mile or so south of the state line. It's mailing address is Zion, IL...but its in the town of Russell (hope that makes sense).

I'm not sure about the Amtrak station and the final destinations so with that I have a link to the latest routes from midwest locations.

http://www.amtrak.com/servlet/ContentServer?c=Page&pagename=am%2FLayout&p=1237405732511&cid=1237437856440

I'll have to dig around to find out how long those routes have been available; I can tell you that the Sturtevant station has been there for many years (predating this case by a long long time).

Indications from the detective are that he was in Wheaton before stealing the car from Gurnee. The time line from when the car was stolen and when our JD flipped the vehicle is estimated at about 1 hour. The owner parked it the night before (nothing specific on the time) and JD crashed around 4am the next morning. The clothing store wouldn't have been open during those hours, no time is really known regarding what time JD stole the car however...but the window is thought to be "really small" in terms of time.

*I just received an email reply from the Waukesha detective!

"Nothing on books from library. Report only indicates “library books”. Unknown if bike was stolen (probably was), cops ran the serial number no record of listed owner and didn’t come up stolen."

 

[Cubby]

Current Metra system train map out of Chicago.

http://metrarail.com/content/metra/en/home/maps_schedules/metra_system_map.html

I should have looked earlier at a map to see where Delafield, WI is located. Much further north and west than I thought. (and I kept mixing up Delafield with Delavan :loser

Why would he steal a car in Gurnee and if he was on a train why exit in Gurnee if his intended destination was in Wisconsin? The trains go further north.. unless they did not in 1977 at the time he was there.

I still think it is wise to see if the detective can get a week or so records on bookings and inmate releases from DPC jail. Without a last name it would be some time to go through everyone named John... maybe? I don't know how many inmates DPC jail housed on any given day back in 77. It wouldn't be near the number in say Cook Cty. But starting with the night before the accident and working backwards?

It is also possible the library books and bag of womans clothing were items he had on him when he was book and then had them when released...

Dunno.

Will have to think on the distance between Gurnee and Delafield along with the known address of the RV place.