Found Alive WI - Jayme Closs, 13, Barron, missing after parents found shot, 15 Oct 2018 *Arrest* #38

[pepper 34]

I did notice a discrepancy in the details of the criminal complaint. Jayme said her mom was able to put the tape on her mouth, but JP said Denise was struggling and he grabbed the roll from her and did it himself. I wonder if he wanted Denise to do it so there would be less of a chance of leaving DNA somewhere or if it was part of his sick plan. I don't actually want to know.

From Complaint / Confession:

"J.L.C. stated Patterson broke down the bathroom door and told her mother to hang up the phone. J.L.C. stated Patterson told her mother to put tape over J.L.C.’s mouth, which her mother did, and then Patterson shot her mother."
"The defendant stated he pulled out a flattened partial roll of black colored Gorilla brand duct tape, handed it to Denise, and told her to place the tape over J.L.C.’s mouth. The defendant stated Denise was struggling to do that and he set the shotgun down on the bathroom sink. The defendant stated he took the tape from Denise and wrapped tape around J.L.C.’s mouth, and completely around her head."

I have a tendency to believe JP's version but have no trouble understanding why Jayme might have been unaware of certain details. She had to have been in severe shock at that point in time, imo.
http://media.graytvinc.com/documents/Jake+Patterson+Criminal+Complaint.pdf

 

[taximama24]

We discussed all of these in the mid-20s of this thread so you're not alone. My theory is that the call didn't come in right away. I think Denise got Jayme into the bathroom and they worked on barricading the door for a minute before the call went out. Still that's only 8-9 minutes and it is definitely a short time to accomplish all of that, but adrenaline and planning, plus a complicit child. He is 6'0" 215 pounds and was obviously able to throw his weight around pretty quickly. But check out pg. 23-25 of this thread for others' thoughts. I'm still catching up on this thread.

Ahh, I always misjudge the adrenaline factor!

 

[sumzero]

From JTP's own mouth, (paraphrased) he said had they tried to pull him over he likely would have started shooting. We can assume that the Sheriffs, in return, would empty their clips, possibly hitting JC. You're correct that they may have been looking for the Taurus. They mentioned two other vehicles of interest but maybe that was done so JTP wouldn't do anything rash.

Yes, it could have put JC at risk, had they pulled him over and engaged in a gunfight. But JTP, facing the prospect of being shot, might’ve surrendered without incident. I also wonder what would’ve happened had DC been able to tell the 911 operator that someone had broken into their home and shot her husband. Would LE have been on higher alert to the possibility that someone might be fleeing the scene? And then what...?

 

[girlhasnoname]

My first post on this thread - although I have read all the posts.

Firstly so, so happy Jayme has been saved (down to her!) and is safe. Thank God someone was looking over her and she had the courage and strength for her escape.

Firstly, I just wanted to say about the Taurus car evidence not being reported to the public - I personally feel that the police knew exactly what they were doing. They are police officers involved with the case and they thought if they did put the info out there, after seeing first hand what happened in the Closs household that it would be so much safer for Jayme not to panic him. If they did say about the car - who knows what the outcome would have been.

I think it was a good thing, he would have panicked I think. I think even though they didn’t know where she was, they had an idea she was alive - and they made him think he had got away with it and they had no clues!

Just my opinion.

This seems like the only logical answer and I agree. They also had the expertise of the FBI, CBI and other agencies who would have developed a criminal profile based on evidence we the public did not know. He very well may have killed Jayme or himself or both if he knew he had 'failed' his mission so soon.

 

[Julia966]

Curiosity: Eight years of psychology, research, statistics, only to end up in law lol. But it still interests me. Sooo
The labels of sociopath/psychopath, etc are being easily used but based on criteria and characteristics I don't see it with JP. Even a peripheral glance at the characteristics and criteria I have to stretch to meet even a few characteristics let alone try to back it up with not a history of such but one known instance (which is not permitted). Just sharing this info for anyone interested. Would love to hear honest opinions from those thinking JP fits this mold. Which charecteristics and why. Is it enough? TIA

"The Hare PCL-R contains two parts, a semi-structured interview and a review of the subject's file records and history. During the evaluation, the clinician scores 20 items that measure central elements of the psychopathic character. The items cover the nature of the subject's interpersonal relationships; his or her affective or emotional involvement; responses to other people and to situations; evidence of social deviance; and lifestyle. The material thus covers two key aspects that help define the psychopath: selfish and unfeeling victimization of other people, and an unstable and antisocial lifestyle.

The twenty traits assessed by the PCL-R score are:

• glib and superficial charm
• grandiose (exaggeratedly high) estimation of self
• need for stimulation
• pathological lying
• cunning and manipulativeness
• lack of remorse or guilt
• shallow affect (superficial emotional responsiveness)
• callousness and lack of empathy
• parasitic lifestyle
• poor behavioral controls
• sexual promiscuity
• early behavior problems
• lack of realistic long-term goals
• impulsivity
• irresponsibility
• failure to accept responsibility for own actions
• many short-term marital relationships
• juvenile delinquency
• revocation of conditional release
• criminal versatility

The interview portion of the evaluation covers the subject's background, including such items as work and educational history; marital and family status; and criminal background. Because psychopaths lie frequently and easily, the information they provide must be confirmed by a review of the documents in the subject's case history.

Results
When properly completed by a qualified professional, the PCL-R provides a total score that indicates how closely the test subject matches the "perfect" score that a classic or prototypical psychopath would rate. Each of the twenty items is given a score of 0, 1, or 2 based on how well it applies to the subject being tested. A prototypical psychopath would receive a maximum score of 40, while someone with absolutely no psychopathic traits or tendencies would receive a score of zero. A score of 30 or above qualifies a person for a diagnosis of psychopathy. People with no criminal backgrounds normally score around 5. Many non-psychopathic criminal offenders score around 22."



Read more: Hare Psychopathy Checklist - define, person, people, used, personality, score, traits, Definition, Purpose

Yeah, based on what little we know, he doesn't seem to fit many of those traits. What is he closest to, then, based on what we know?

 

[Mom24]

Curiosity: Eight years of psychology, research, statistics, only to end up in law lol. But it still interests me. Sooo
The labels of sociopath/psychopath, etc are being easily used but based on criteria and characteristics I don't see it with JP. Even a peripheral glance at the characteristics and criteria I have to stretch to meet even a few characteristics let alone try to back it up with not a history of such but one known instance (which is not permitted). Just sharing this info for anyone interested. Would love to hear honest opinions from those thinking JP fits this mold. Which charecteristics and why. Is it enough? TIA

"The Hare PCL-R contains two parts, a semi-structured interview and a review of the subject's file records and history. During the evaluation, the clinician scores 20 items that measure central elements of the psychopathic character. The items cover the nature of the subject's interpersonal relationships; his or her affective or emotional involvement; responses to other people and to situations; evidence of social deviance; and lifestyle. The material thus covers two key aspects that help define the psychopath: selfish and unfeeling victimization of other people, and an unstable and antisocial lifestyle.

The twenty traits assessed by the PCL-R score are:

• glib and superficial charm
• grandiose (exaggeratedly high) estimation of self
• need for stimulation
• pathological lying
• cunning and manipulativeness
• lack of remorse or guilt
• shallow affect (superficial emotional responsiveness)
• callousness and lack of empathy
• parasitic lifestyle
• poor behavioral controls
• sexual promiscuity
• early behavior problems
• lack of realistic long-term goals
• impulsivity
• irresponsibility
• failure to accept responsibility for own actions
• many short-term marital relationships
• juvenile delinquency
• revocation of conditional release
• criminal versatility

The interview portion of the evaluation covers the subject's background, including such items as work and educational history; marital and family status; and criminal background. Because psychopaths lie frequently and easily, the information they provide must be confirmed by a review of the documents in the subject's case history.

Results
When properly completed by a qualified professional, the PCL-R provides a total score that indicates how closely the test subject matches the "perfect" score that a classic or prototypical psychopath would rate. Each of the twenty items is given a score of 0, 1, or 2 based on how well it applies to the subject being tested. A prototypical psychopath would receive a maximum score of 40, while someone with absolutely no psychopathic traits or tendencies would receive a score of zero. A score of 30 or above qualifies a person for a diagnosis of psychopathy. People with no criminal backgrounds normally score around 5. Many non-psychopathic criminal offenders score around 22."



Read more: Hare Psychopathy Checklist - define, person, people, used, personality, score, traits, Definition, Purpose

In that anyone who dreams, fantasizes and carries out a home invasion, double murder and abduction is clearly outside of the norm, it's hard to really diagnose him.
He was antisocial in school, according to some, obviously engages in risky behavior, can't hold a job and is intelligent. From seeing him for less than 10 mins and viewing his demeanor and what little we know of his personal history, it's really hard to make any diagnosis.

 

[Mom24]

Where I grew up, we kids were taught to be hyper aware of any vehicles or people coming our way. My Dad has shot warning shots off countless times both day or night. My Granny did the same thing. Dad always took his rifle or shotgun with him. I could easily see any car coming with no lights on. Plus, you’re attuned to hearing anything that could be tires on gravel. I can see how Jayme would’ve been taught the same (though perhaps minus actually firing warning shots or at someone). All JMO, of course.

He said he shut his lights off, so I was trying to figure out how she would see the car approaching the drive, but maybe she could see it in the moonlight.
I'm dissecting what he's said to see if it's factual. I believe her account, but not so much his and I'm unsure he really did all the "crafty" things he's said in his statement, like disabling the dome light, shutting off the engine (be kind of hard to even turn the wheel since they lock when the car is off), etc. Just wondering if he's bragging.
Like he said merely hitting the wall and yelling made JC cower and obey him. But she stated that he used an object to hit her hard on the back. It's like he's trying to look more tough and in control than he was.

 

[Celt1997]

Maybe I missed something (not reading the whole last thread) but did the cop only remember the Maroon car after-the-fact. Maybe after seeing JTP's car? Was that car description found in any previous documents that may now have been released? I can think of no reason not to release that description, seeing that they released info on two other vehicle types.

There's no way to know for sure. The complaint, however, is written chronologically and makes it sound like the Deputy entered all those details into his notes that very night.

 

[taximama24]

Great point

Can't find the post you quoted about the muffling from the mask, but yes this makes more sense now as to why dispatch lumped it all together as "screaming."

 

[BradB]

You can’t diagnosis him. He had no background. There’s absolutely nothing at hand to predict future behavior. We can only gather what motivated this tragedy and even then it won’t prevent this type of crime in the future.

It’s simple as people will do whatever they want to do.

 

[24Brix]

I believe LE has stated that they only saw the one car. It is odd, to me, that they didn't broadcast that fact. I suppose it was just an oversight but they had no other information to go on except for the neighbors' inaccurate report of gun fire so you would think it would be a semi-big deal.

MOO, but here’s the way I see it. LE is responding on straight road to a 911 call. Let’s assume they’re doing a minimum of 70 mph and JP is slowing and yielding to them at 35 mph. (Typical in my area, at least. I wouldn’t be surprised to find out LE was going faster than that.) That’s at least 105 mph combined which is 154 feet per second. In two seconds, JP’s car went from being 154 feet in front of them to 154 feet behind them. That’s very little time to form a detailed opinion of the vehicle. I also suspect the oncoming headlights’ glare into the camera might make it hard to definitively identify a vehicle from dash cam footage as well. I wouldn’t be surprised to find out that an “orange or red Charger or similar” (quotes mine) was the best they could do until after the arrest. But that upon comparison of JP’s vehicle with the dash cam footage they were able to make a match.

Again, just MOO.

 

[BlinkOfAnI]

In regards to JP not working beyond a few days at any job. When you are on Social Security Disability Income (SSDI) as an adult, your case is reviewed periodically. One of the ways to validate your case, especially with the mental health diagnosis, is the inability to maintain employment. Recipients are given a Return to Work “ticket”. It allows them retraining, help with career matching, job counseling, etc. Repeated failures at basic self support are indicative of an underlying issue of some type. Many prisoners receive SSDI and the prison system is the org that applies for it on behalf of the prisoner to generate funding for their care.

It is much easier to obtain a disability claim if a person is a child under age 18. That is usually what Social Security Income (SSI) is for, long term medical needs, such as a child born with a serious medical condition. Note that SSI currently has a monthly max of $750.00.

SSDI is based on income so it could be more per month. In JPs case, if his parents applied for SSDI prior to age 21 he would receive 1/2 of their estimated disability amount. As an example, if the parents estimated disability amount is $1,800 monthly, JP would receive $900 monthly. That’s impossible to live on in many areas. Hence, the reason for JP to remain in housing he doesn’t pay for. This may have been the motivation for the home being paid off. By attempting to work, JP has proven is inability to do so, thus validating his claim. Is or was he gaming the system? Possibly. But guess what the prison system is going to do? Ensure his SSDI continues.

Thank you for that information!

 

[ilovechili]

I can believe it. Joseph Duncan was literally just driving down the road when he saw Shasta Groene playing out in her yard. He broke in, killed her parents, and then took her and her brother away. (Sadly, he killed her brother, but Shasta was later rescued.) Prolific serial killer Henry Lee Lucas used to just go to parking lots and sit there and watch people until he found the victim he wanted.

While probably true in all cases and not any reason to believe these "facts" are not true, I would just say we know these things from the killers themselves and I would not consider them the fountain of "truth" necessarily.... In fact, many of them seem to enjoy games and power trips and have a need to feel smarter than the average bear... I already am having a big problem with the four minutes that Jake seemed to pull right from the TV or internet....

Just me but I put little store in what any perp says.... I think their very acts have already impeached any reason to believe what they say has any veracity...

jmho

 

[Quill]

Curiosity: Eight years of psychology, research, statistics, only to end up in law lol. But it still interests me. Sooo
The labels of sociopath/psychopath, etc are being easily used but based on criteria and characteristics I don't see it with JP. Even a peripheral glance at the characteristics and criteria I have to stretch to meet even a few characteristics let alone try to back it up with not a history of such but one known instance (which is not permitted). Just sharing this info for anyone interested. Would love to hear honest opinions from those thinking JP fits this mold. Which charecteristics and why. Is it enough? TIA

"The Hare PCL-R contains two parts, a semi-structured interview and a review of the subject's file records and history. During the evaluation, the clinician scores 20 items that measure central elements of the psychopathic character. The items cover the nature of the subject's interpersonal relationships; his or her affective or emotional involvement; responses to other people and to situations; evidence of social deviance; and lifestyle. The material thus covers two key aspects that help define the psychopath: selfish and unfeeling victimization of other people, and an unstable and antisocial lifestyle.

The twenty traits assessed by the PCL-R score are:

• glib and superficial charm
• grandiose (exaggeratedly high) estimation of self
• need for stimulation
• pathological lying
• cunning and manipulativeness
• lack of remorse or guilt
• shallow affect (superficial emotional responsiveness)
• callousness and lack of empathy
• parasitic lifestyle
• poor behavioral controls
• sexual promiscuity
• early behavior problems
• lack of realistic long-term goals
• impulsivity
• irresponsibility
• failure to accept responsibility for own actions
• many short-term marital relationships
• juvenile delinquency
• revocation of conditional release
• criminal versatility

The interview portion of the evaluation covers the subject's background, including such items as work and educational history; marital and family status; and criminal background. Because psychopaths lie frequently and easily, the information they provide must be confirmed by a review of the documents in the subject's case history.

Results
When properly completed by a qualified professional, the PCL-R provides a total score that indicates how closely the test subject matches the "perfect" score that a classic or prototypical psychopath would rate. Each of the twenty items is given a score of 0, 1, or 2 based on how well it applies to the subject being tested. A prototypical psychopath would receive a maximum score of 40, while someone with absolutely no psychopathic traits or tendencies would receive a score of zero. A score of 30 or above qualifies a person for a diagnosis of psychopathy. People with no criminal backgrounds normally score around 5. Many non-psychopathic criminal offenders score around 22."



Read more: Hare Psychopathy Checklist - define, person, people, used, personality, score, traits, Definition, Purpose

Going off the stated score of 30 or above qualifying for a diagnosis of psychopathy, what would the consensus be on a person who had a score just below that? Lets say a 25 or so with no criminal background at all? Just trying to wrap my brain around something.

 

[BlinkOfAnI]

Yeah, based on what little we know, he doesn't seem to fit many of those traits. What is he closest to, then, based on what we know?

I honestly don't know. Sometimes ruling things out can lead to an answer.

 

[BlinkOfAnI]

In that anyone who dreams, fantasizes and carries out a home invasion, double murder and abduction is clearly outside of the norm, it's hard to really diagnose him.
He was antisocial in school, according to some, obviously engages in risky behavior, can't hold a job and is intelligent. From seeing him for less than 10 mins and viewing his demeanor and what little we know of his personal history, it's really hard to make any diagnosis.

Exactly my point. TY!

 

[taximama24]

He said he shut his lights off, so I was trying to figure out how she would see the car approaching the drive, but maybe she could see it in the moonlight.
I'm dissecting what he's said to see if it's factual. I believe her account, but not so much his and I'm unsure he really did all the "crafty" things he's said in his statement, like disabling the dome light, shutting off the engine (be kind of hard to even turn the wheel since they lock when the car is off), etc. Just wondering if he's bragging.
Like he said merely hitting the wall and yelling made JC cower and obey him. But she stated that he used an object to hit her hard on the back. It's like he's trying to look more tough and in control than he was.

Yes he seems very intentional about the great lengths he went to to avoid being connected to the crime, but then confesses in almost his first breath of encountering LE after the escape...definitely a disconnect there! It does seem like maybe he was trying to script his own episode of Criminal Minds.

 

[pepper 34]

The county seat is Superior. The distance from Superior to Gordon is 46 miles..... plus some miles west to the subdivision.
Map of Douglas County: Google Maps

The distance, yes... and I also heard one of the police officers, responding to the 911 call and enroute, refer to an ice slick on the road and having to catch up to another officer. So, caution and appropriate speed limits for the driving conditions were necessary.

 

[girlhasnoname]

Self deleted

 

[Sjm_qc]

Some random thoughts:

If one watches the DAs’ presser from yesterday, it’s clearly stated that they have more information than is revealed in the criminal complaint.

DA also addresses (very briefly) why LE didn’t “reveal” the information about the car seen by deputies on the way to the Closs house on the night of the killings & abduction. It doesn’t surprise or anger me that they kept that under wraps - it’s happened in other cases I’ve followed and eventually there’s practically always a good reason for doing so. Ditto the bloody footprint at murder scene.

Regarding theories & speculation about JP’s family & upbringing & whether there were signs/symptoms/things that could have been done etc etc: I have a lot of speculation/thoughts on this. For the moment, I’m sticking with no one could have predicted this/prevented this even if JP displayed odd/abnormal/“weirdo” behaviour tendencies.

At the moment we have no idea what his family life/upbringing was like, other than that parents divorced, boys allegedly stayed with father, he did ok in school, had an older brother who had criminal problems & convictions.

We don’t know whether or not parents DID have concerns about him, nor whether or not they sought help for him, or not.

While I would never want to take away from the immense courage & fortitude of JC & her family, I DO think it takes courage for family members of the accused to show up to court. It may be that they are totally blindsided too.

A couple of useful links:
http://media.graytvinc.com/documents/jayme+closs+complaint.pdf Criminal Complaint

Post-initial hearing press conference with DAs:

 

[BlinkOfAnI]

Going off the stated score of 30 or above qualifying for a diagnosis of psychopathy, what would the consensus be on a person who had a score just below that? Lets say a 25 or so with no criminal background at all? Just trying to wrap my brain around something.

No idea but on a side note I have never been one to put a lot into subjective tests. Basic guideline but not concrete. JMO