Found Alive WI - Jayme Closs, 13, Barron, missing after parents found shot, 15 Oct 2018 *Arrest* #43

[OhThatVictoria]

And others said earlier (before they had made any public statement) that they needed to apologize publicly, on camera. They cannot win.

I don’t mean to come off harsh against PP as I can’t imagine what I’d do, esp when living in a remote / rutal area where EVERYBODY knows your personal business. It has to be very uncomfortable for the entire family, the awkwardness of people not knowing what to say to them, the whispers. Shades of the Scarlet Letter.

 

[Caylee Advocate]

And others said earlier (before they had made any public statement) that they needed to apologize publicly, on camera. They cannot win.

I still do not understand why they would need to apologize. Apologize for what? I fully agree with you.

 

[girlhasnoname]

Quite simply, I ask . . . what family of a crime perpetrator has NOT felt tremendous guilt and sympathy over the outcome of their loved ones actions?

The site frowns on “anecdotes” but I will share that a friend’s son was murdered and it took years to track down the killers. About a year after the hearings (where all parties were found guilty), my friend expressed that the primary killer had reached out to her family through the DA’s office and wanted to communicate, explain the circumstances of the incident.

My friend was willing to receive the letter, her husband wanted nothing to do with it. She received the correspondence and asked me to read the letter. We sat in my back yard on a beautiful day when I read the letter and it was extremely heartfelt and honestly, heart breaking. It was a robbery gone wrong and never the intention to cause harm. But it did. Her son was killed. She was left feeling more at peace yet not a day goes by that she doesn’t grieve her loss.

For the Closs family, they are just trying to find a new normal. This crime is too recent, too fresh. I’m certain that PP feels extreme sorrow and remorse over his son’s actions BUT this isn’t about making him feel better right now. This is about making the process as painless as possible for JC. There is no resolution in hearing what PP had to say.

Absolutely right on point and a beautiful post, thanks for sharing it.

 

[Scrapper18]

If you backread this thread you can see that I have been quite vocal in defense of PP. However, I respect others opinions. It would be a very boring world if everyone agreed 100% of the time. IMO. So for ME, it's time to move on from it.

Yes, I’ve followed the thread from the beginning. I agree with you and am ready to move on. We are beating a dead horse.

 

[PommyMommy]

Mary McGuire on Twitter
Tomorrow marks one month since #JaymeCloss escaped captivity and came home to Barron. Community members will be wearing blue to celebrate. @WCCO #JaymeStrong

 

[Caylee Advocate]

Wow, one donor gave 5K. Does the site put a cap on how long this can continue?


https://www.wausaudailyherald.com/s...s--page-barron-teen-raises-50-000/2801164002/

 

[SeekingJana]

I did not say he is schizophrenic, I said I think it will be used as a defense. He is about the age that many schizophrenics begin to show serious symptoms. Some of the outward symptoms are inability to follow through on things, social withdrawal, difficulty paying attention, apathy, cannot experience pleasure, flattened affect.

< Snipped because this is about the symptoms of possible things that may or may not be " wrong" with JP>
BBM for emphasis

It is not my intent to either diagnose from news reports and so forth, or to argue with any poster, but respectfully, the part of the post I bolded are hallmark symptoms of Major Depression. Because I don't think this is critical to discuss except briefly, I am using a reputable and respected website for laypersons which lists the common symptoms of depression. Depression is not related to any violence against other people, and most people can/ will have some periods of depression in the course of their lifetimes not related to ANY thoughts or actions of violence at all.

Common symptoms of major depression in layperson terms from the Mayo Clinic:
Depression (major depressive disorder) - Symptoms and causes

Note- article is snipped to comply with copyright rules/ law.

Symptoms of depression:
Although depression may occur only once during your life, people typically have multiple episodes. During these episodes, symptoms occur most of the day, nearly every day and may include:

• Feelings of sadness, tearfulness, emptiness or hopelessness
• Angry outbursts, irritability or frustration, even over small matters
• Loss of interest or pleasure in most or all normal activities, such as sex, hobbies or sports
• Sleep disturbances, including insomnia or sleeping too much
• Tiredness and lack of energy, so even small tasks take extra effort
• Reduced appetite and weight loss or increased cravings for food and weight gain
• Anxiety, agitation or restlessness
• Slowed thinking, speaking or body movements
• Feelings of worthlessness or guilt, fixating on past failures or self-blame
• Trouble thinking, concentrating, making decisions and remembering things
• Frequent or recurrent thoughts of death, suicidal thoughts, suicide attempts or suicide
• Unexplained physical problems, such as back pain or headaches

Personal note restated for emphasis- Almost all people have depression at some point in their lives, and it will pass. It is a matter of degree. If mood is disturbed enough to cause a change in the quality of life, then evaluation by a trained counselor or therapist is usually very helpful. There are many successful treatments for most types of depression, including naturopathy and/ or homeopathic remedies for mild to moderate depression which is bothersome and doesn't go away on its own.

Schizophrenia
Schizophrenia Symptoms: Positive and Negative Symptoms Explained:

The possibility of Schizophrenia onset was mentioned. Here are the major and most visible signs and symptoms of the possible onset of schizophrenia in adults.
The main feature noticed is an onset of highly exaggerated ideas, perceptions, or actions that show the person can’t tell what’s real from what isn’t. Here the word "positive" means the presence (rather than absence) of symptoms. They can include:

• Hallucinations. People with schizophrenia might hear, see, smell, or feel things no one else does. The types of hallucinations in schizophrenia include:
  • Auditory. The person most often hears voices in their head. They might be angry or urgent and demand that they do things. It can sound like one voice or many. They might whisper, murmur, or be angry and demanding.
  • Visual. Someone might see lights, objects, people, or patterns. Often it’s loved ones or friends who are no longer alive. They may also have trouble with depth perception and distance.
  • Olfactory and gustatory. This can include good and bad smells and tastes. Someone might believe they’re being poisoned and refuse to eat.
  • Tactile. This creates a feeling of things moving on your body, like hands or insects.
• Delusions. These are beliefs that seem strange to most people and are easy to prove wrong. The person affected might think someone is trying to control their brain through TVs or that the FBI is out to get them. They might believe they're someone else, like a famous actor or the president, or that they have superpowers. Types of delusions include:
  • Persecutory delusions. The feeling someone is after you or that you’re being stalked, hunted, framed, or tricked.
  • Referential delusions. When a person believes that public forms of communication, like song lyrics or a gesture from a TV host, are a special message just for them.
  • Somatic delusions. These center on the body. The person thinks they have a terrible illness or bizarre health problem like worms under the skin or damage from cosmic rays.
  • Erotomanic delusions. A person might be convinced a celebrity is in love with them or that their partner is cheating. Or they might think people they’re not attracted to are pursuing them.
  • Religious delusions. Someone might think they have a special relationship with a deity or that they’re possessed by a demon.
  • Grandiose delusions. They consider themselves a major figure on the world stage, like an entertainer or a politician.
• Confused thoughts and disorganized speech. People with schizophrenia can have a hard time organizing their thoughts. They might not be able to follow along when you talk to them. Instead, it might seem like they're zoning out or distracted. When they talk, their words can come out jumbled and not make sense.
• Trouble concentrating. For example, someone might lose track of what's going on in a TV show as they're watching.
• Movement disorders . Some people with schizophrenia can seem jumpy. Sometimes they'll make the same movements over and over again. But sometimes they might be perfectly still for hours at a stretch, which experts call being catatonic. Contrary to popular belief, people with the disease usually aren't violent

(My note- Almost all people have trouble concentrating at times from childhood to the last years of a long life. This is because of sensory overload in today's world more than anything else, and is NOT indicative of any disorder in and of itself. Remember, this is WebMD, not a professional textbook or diagnostic criteria manual. I would not have listed such as a symptom of schizophrenia).

This article was snipped to comply with copyright rules/ laws.


Respectfully submitted to all who are interested , in my own words and with definitions from the referenced sources.

 

[SeekingJana]

Because there is a term used for people with several clusters of violent and anti-social behaviors ( meaning violent and abusive to others, not shyness, not wanting to be alone, not shunning social events, OK? Not going down that rabbit hole), I thought it might be helpful once again after several months to discuss the person who gets a proper evaluation of testing, observation, very detailed history from close family members, and professional diagnosis based upon written diagnostic criteria which are complex and sometimes difficult to differentiate.

**** Again, I would like to make clear that this is not referring to being shy or introverted or not liking people around, but violent, harmful thoughts turned into actions against others, just so we don't go down that rabbit hole.*****

A few symptoms of Anti-Social Personality Disorder ( or a sociopath):
Antisocial personality disorder - Symptoms and causes

Symptoms
Antisocial personality disorder signs and symptoms may include:

• Disregard for right and wrong
• Persistent lying or deceit to exploit others
• Being callous, cynical and disrespectful of others
• Using charm or wits to manipulate others for personal gain or personal pleasure
• Arrogance, a sense of superiority and being extremely opinionated
• Recurring problems with the law, including criminal behavior
• Repeatedly violating the rights of others through intimidation and dishonesty
• Impulsiveness or failure to plan ahead
• Hostility, significant irritability, agitation, aggression or violence
• Lack of empathy for others and lack of remorse about harming others
• Unnecessary risk-taking or dangerous behavior with no regard for the safety of self or others
• Poor or abusive relationships
• Failure to consider the negative consequences of behavior or learn from them
• Being consistently irresponsible and repeatedly failing to fulfill work or financial obligations

The rest is a narrative about the childhood symptoms of sociopathy. I chose to snip the article for compliance of copyright rules/ laws and because I don't want anyone to try to diagnose their child as a sociopath. All kids are sometimes mean, selfish, whatever. It's a matter of degree of symptoms , even in a child.

My notes:
Violent Sociopaths are rare, and most of the population will never know or even see a person with this severe disorder. We may read about their crimes and criminal patterns of activity in news, in books, see the behavior acted out in movies, but not ever run into this kind of violent person.

Violent Sociopaths aka Anti-social personality disordered can sometimes be identified by a layperson as seeming to be " dangerous" or " threatening". Trust instincts, and get away.

It is only through diagnosis by a complex set of tools needed by the psychologists and psychiatrists to actually apply the term of Sociopath.

A violent sociopath is not able to understand how they're different. Because of the nature of the disorder, which is pervasive and severe, at this time there is no known treatment or cure. Isolation from society in a safe and secure penal institution is the best we have to keep everyone else safe.

Respectfully submitted as part of our discussion about possible causes of violence in the murder of the Closs parents and not for any diagnostic reason.
All which is not cited as a source is my opinion, imperfect and meant to reassure, not harm or scare. ( It is a scary disorder).

 

[human]

I don't know who I am replying to.
ITA with the poster who feels enough is enough already as regards the P family.
If I were in the C's family and in the same situation my reply would be somewhere between curt and contemptuous.
Enough is enough.
jmo

Calling out that they love him at the hearing.

If I was a Closs member I would be beyond enraged and astounded.

This is so inappropriate. To me, they look like a unified support system for their ownselves I see no actual feelings for the Closs’s.Merely a show

 

[human]

That's true he did not make any excuses for JP in that clip. But neither did he condemn his son's actions. I think that must be what struck me as off-- no mention of JP at all and only focusing on Jayme's need to heal her "heart, mind and soul". The same words could have been said if Jayme was a troubled teen who ran away from home and shacked up with JP of her own free will. No mention of the physical healing Jayme must also need after the abuse JP inflicted on her for 88 days. Of course we don't know all of what happened but we know he struck her on the back once with a handle of a cleaning implement, causing her pain and fear. And we know he kept her under the bed for long periods of time--sometimes 12 hours without food or bathroom breaks. And she was skinny and near hypothermia when she escaped. But no mention of the abuse she suffered and no mention that she needs all this healing because of his son. Also no mention of James and Denise being murdered by his son. I guess all that is what rubs me the wrong way. I'm still angry for all Jayme suffered. I'm angry for James and Denise-- and their being murdered in the most gruesome manor right in front of their daughter. I want to see this dad as a victim of JP as well but I'm struggling with that when it appears he is working with the defense and carefully not mentioning any of the crimes his son is accused of committing. I guess time will tell if PP is planning on defending his son's actions or not. Meeting with JP's defense attorneys suggests to me that PP is not going to be testifying for the prosecution. I think he is planning to defend his son and make excuses for him.

MOO.

Totally agree.

 

[Forpsy]

Calling out that they love him at the hearing.

If I was a Closs member I would be beyond enraged and astounded.

This is so inappropriate. To me, they look like a unified support system for their ownselves I see no actual feelings for the Closs’s.Merely a show

Thank you
That really bothered me as well.

 

[human]

Wow, one donor gave 5K. Does the *** site put a cap on how long this can continue?


'People really care:' Jayme Closs fund triples goal after raising nearly $50,000 in weeks

What would be the purpose of a cap? The cap is when people quit giving.

 

[Andreee]

If you backread this thread you can see that I have been quite vocal in defense of PP. However, I respect others opinions. It would be a very boring world if everyone agreed 100% of the time. IMO. So for ME, it's time to move on from it.

Yes, we should move on. I certainly do not consider JP's family victims too. My only concern is for the real victim, Jayme Closs.

 

[Andreee]

Regarding the compassion and gratitude recently expressed by PP to JC and family, I believe it important to put the entire context of the exchange in one post. It seems to me that there's been far to much misinformation about the exchange and family response. And I'd like to see any outrage directed to the "click bait headlines" and media if you must!

Jan 14, 2019 - three days following Jayme's rescue, PP, JP's father, attended the initial hearing at the Barron Justice Center. Approached by the media, he could hardly get the words out that he wanted to pass a note to the Closs’ family, as CNN reported. On the verge of tears, Patrick Patterson declined an interview but said “All I care about right now is Jayme’s family.”

Following the hearing, and speaking exclusively with the Daily Mail, Jayme's Aunt was questioned about the content of PP's note. Clearly caught off guard by the reporters inquiry, she responded that "she didn't know anything about a note," and "she had no desire to have any contact with that family at the moment... Right now, all I'm focusing on is looking after Jayme."

Seeking the scoop on CNN's sound bite, Denise Closs' father, (and Jayme's grandfather), was also contacted by the AP. He was very clear with his response -- stating that "he appreciates the sympathy being expressed by the suspect’s father"... “You can’t blame the parents,” Naiberg told The Associated Press. “A guy becomes 21 years old, and sometimes it’s not how he was raised or anything.”

Feb 6, 2019 - After Wednesday's preliminary hearing, PP again refused reporters questions, but provided the following statement (25 second sound) exclusively to GMA/ABC:

"I most definitely want Jayme's family to know, everyone to know that our hearts are broken for their family," Patterson said. "I would like to humbly ask people to pray for a complete healing of Jayme's heart, mind, and soul. And I would also ask for people to pray for that for their entire family. I'm very sorry for everything that has happened."

"I would like to thank the federal, local and state authorities for their professional and respectful way in which they have treated me and my family," Patrick Patterson said. "I would also like to thank the media for the way in which they've been patient and understanding with this difficult matter. It has been a very difficult time for us."

Jayme Closs' family has 'no desire for any contact' with kidnapper's father | Daily Mail Online
‘You can’t blame the parents’: Jayme Closs’ grandfather appreciates kidnapper’s father sympathy
Patterson's father: Pray for Jayme Closs and

Calling out that they love him at the hearing.

If I was a Closs member I would be beyond enraged and astounded.

This is so inappropriate. To me, they look like a unified support system for their ownselves I see no actual feelings for the Closs’s.Merely a show

 

[Irmese]

<Modified for brevity>
Respectfully submitted to all who are interested , in my own words and with definitions from the referenced sources.

Again, I was responding to a question asking what WSers think his defense will be. I believe his lawyer will try to have a professional diagnosis of schizophrenia presented in his defense.

Also from the same website you quoted:

Schizophrenia - Symptoms and causes
Schizophrenia symptoms in teenagers are similar to those in adults, but the condition may be more difficult to recognize. This may be in part because some of the early symptoms of schizophrenia in teenagers are common for typical development during teen years, such as:

• Withdrawal from friends and family
• A drop in performance at school
• Trouble sleeping
• Irritability or depressed mood
• Lack of motivation

I am not disagreeing with you. I am saying a lot of mental illnesses have common symptoms and that I believe his defense will be schizophrenia. We will see.
ETA The reason I quoted the part about teens is because most of the information about how he may have presented to others was from when he was a teen.

 

[Falcon500]

Again, I was responding to a question asking what WSers think his defense will be. I believe his lawyer will try to have a professional diagnosis of schizophrenia

I am not disagreeing with you. I am saying a lot of mental illnesses have common symptoms and that I believe his defense will be schizophrenia. We will see.
ETA The reason I quoted the part about teens is because most of the information about how he may have presented to others was from when he was a teen.

There is no defense called “Schizophrenia”. If anything it would have to be “not guilty by reason of insanity”. To prove that the defense would have to first convince a judge that he did not know the difference between right and wrong and would be unable to assist in his own defense. His planning and actions during the crime would probably eliminate that possibility.

 

[ilovechili]

Here is a recent case where schizophrenia played in as well as bi-polar and what went on with regard to the jury in deciding it (twice). A short quick read. It does all come down to whether you know right from wrong, etc. This is in Wisconsin so it is a good example.

Confusion Over Insanity Defense Leads One Jury to Issue Two Verdicts in Triple Murder | Prison Legal News

IMO JP has no chance of a jury believing he fits this standard. He planned, he hid her, he knew right from wrong, etc.

 

[OhThatVictoria]

This case might interest some folks . . Teenager, Alan (edit to correct spelling of first name) Randall pled insanity in WI back in the 70’s after being arrested for killing two He also killed a farmer but was never charged for that murder (some sort of error). Here’s the rub, he wasn’t insane and psychiatrists at the institution knew it but they still kept him there for a total of 40 years. Do a search on him, fascinating story and his profile very much fits JP (loner in school, bookish etc).

Killer might have been better off in prison

Do note that the “personality disorder” his defense claimed at that time could not be used in court today as a personalty disorder is not “insanity”. (Thanks for that education, WS!)

Jim Fisher True Crime: Alan Randall: The Insane Cop Killer Who Wasn't That Crazy

What lead to Alan A. Randall to kill 2 Police officers on January 25,1975? Part 1 - The Demon's Den

 

[OhThatVictoria]

Also in WI, two adolescent girls who attempted the 1st Degree Murder of their friend (to please a fictional character, Slenderman) successfully pled insanity and both of them will be housed in the same institution. (Now is that crazy or what?) Granted, they are now teens and were only 12 at the time of the crime. Fortunately, the victim survived. Still, Wisconsin . . .

Slender Man stabbings suspects avoid prison time

 

[Caylee Advocate]

What would be the purpose of a cap? The cap is when people quit giving.

Thank you but that was not what I was asking. I am not familiar with how they operate and by "cap" I was meaning length of time allowed to run ad for donations.