Would you pull a cord

Discussion in 'JonBenet Ramsey' started by WHITEFANG, Jun 3, 2010.

?

Would you tighten a noose around the neck of your child

  1. Yes, but only to stay out of jail

    3 vote(s)
    2.0%
  2. Yes.

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  3. Yes, only if I knew she was already dead.

    4 vote(s)
    2.7%
  4. Are you out of your mind? No way.

    142 vote(s)
    95.3%
  1. WHITEFANG

    WHITEFANG New Member

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    "Would you pull a cord deeply into your daughter's neck, believing she might dead, to cover-up evidence you just killed your her, accidentally?"
     
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  3. Wings Of Light

    Wings Of Light Member

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    No.

    This is semi off-topic... and everyone can take this for what it's worth... which given my post count and history here is perhaps nothing... but I live in Colorado and have met and spoken with Pamela Mackey a few times. I don't remember the exact details as this was a few years ago... but in a conversation that had nothing to do with the JonBenet case (i.e. I didn't ask), we were just discussing public perception and it's importance in cases and whatnot, and she was talking about how frustrating the JonBenet case was because the Ramsey's absolutely had nothing to do with what happened to her. She said it with complete confidence and sincerity, and as I said before, I didn't ask about it at all. That conversation was enough for me to completely throw out the idea that they were involved.
     
  4. SuperDave

    SuperDave Well-Known Member

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    If certain factors were involved, I hate to say it, but I wouldn't put it past me.

    Incidentally, I initially resisted voting.
     
  5. SuperDave

    SuperDave Well-Known Member

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    Wings of Light, you've put me in a tough spot, so let me put it this way:

    1) If I had a dollar for every time someone close to a killer said they were convinced they were completely innocent, I'd be a rich man.

    2) Pamela Mackey is a defense lawyer for the Haddon Law Firm, which the Rs hired. She makes her living convincing people that someone is innocent. Lawyers are the best con artists in existence.

    It just doesn't do it for me.
     
  6. passionflower

    passionflower Just 1 tip to find a killer

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    I couldn't but there are people out there that would and have done something horrible to cover up a murder............just read Ann Rule's books...........it's there.
     
  7. Wings Of Light

    Wings Of Light Member

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    I obviously completely understand where you are coming from. Those points are both often very true.

    However...

    'Someone', and that person's attorney (she wasn't directly, but I know she worked on it extensively with Haddon, and handles all of their big cases now), are two very different things. I've dealt a fair bit with attorney's, and you develop a very special relationship with them... they really truly get to see who you are... and they get to know their clients VERY well - including if they are or aren't credible. Especially over a period of ten years.

    Additionally, I didn't ask for the information. I wasn't prying trying to figure out what she thought, she volunteered what she said. And also knowing her character... which is, extraordinarily sweet, understanding, and caring unless she's in the courtroom, etc... which is a huge difference from someone like, say, Harvey Steinberg, who's 'bedside manner' would make most people cringe. My point being, this wasn't someone trying to convince me of something... it was a matter of fact statement to back up something else she was saying.

    I don't expect to change anyone's mind or anything, perhaps she was lying, or perhaps the Ramsey's are very convincing themselves. I do think that it's valuable to know what she thinks, and that it should be weighted in one's mind when looking at the evidence. In my mind, if someone as smart as her, who has dealt with many, many criminals (she was a public defender for years too), and who worked on the case and probably spent hundreds of hours with them... thinks their client is innocent... that weighs pretty heavily for me.
     
  8. Tadpole12

    Tadpole12 Well-Known Member

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    No. Never.

    The grief would be paralizing.
    Doubt I could even tie a knott.
     
  9. SuperDave

    SuperDave Well-Known Member

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    You bet.

    I don't know about the first. It just strikes me as the kind of thing a defense lawyer WOULD say, whether they believed them or not. As for the Ramseys being very convincing, they certainly have had that effect on some people. Even me, for a while.
     
  10. Wings Of Light

    Wings Of Light Member

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    An attorney would definitely say that whether they believed it or not. I don't think that she would have said it in the circumstances she did if she didn't believe it, though.

    Oh... She does spend her living convincing people that her clients are innocent... you have to remember though... she has clients that ARE innocent, and that have been falsely accused/charged with crimes... it happens more than most people think. It's easy for people to bash lawyers (not saying you were), but they very often do 'save' innocent people's lives.
     
  11. SuperDave

    SuperDave Well-Known Member

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    I understand that, Wings of Light. My point is that her opinion doesn't mean very much in terms of evidence. So when you say that her opinion "should be weighted in one's mind when looking at the evidence," I have to disagree, because I CAN'T let things like that influence me.

    It may happen more often that we think, but it's not that often. I can respect what lawyers do for that reason. And believe me, if I were bashing her, you'd know it.

    Do you know why I resisted voting?
     
  12. MurriFlower

    MurriFlower Inactive

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    Hi WOL

    There are those on this forum who believe that parents in the R's position (that is having a child murdered in their home) is reason enough to suspect them of having done it. But, to also hire a lawyer is tantamount to PROOF of their guilt.
     
  13. Wings Of Light

    Wings Of Light Member

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    That is an absolutely and completely ridiculous thing to say.

    If you don't already know this, and you should, the first thing you should do before talking to a police officer about ANYTHING other than a speeding ticket is invoke your right to remain silent and talk to an attorney. It doesn't matter if you are innocent and know absolutely nothing about the crime they are talking about, or guilty. Any time you have to deal with police, you do it through an attorney and say NOTHING beforehand. Why?

    Watch this video (it's long, but this is something EVERYONE should see):

    [ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6wXkI4t7nuc[/ame]
     
  14. Wings Of Light

    Wings Of Light Member

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    I guess it comes down to your definition of often.

    Even if .05% of people charged with a crime are innocent, and that's EXTREMELY conservative, we are still talking about thousands of people.

    If you can't afford a good attorney, whether you are guilty or innocent, you will probably be convicted. Look at how many people convicted of murder are later released because of DNA evidence... and then think about the number of people out there that didn't have DNA evidence to fall back on, or weren't able to find a way to finance the DNA analysis. The number of people in that latter category is huge.
     
  15. SuperDave

    SuperDave Well-Known Member

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    Statistically, it IS.

    Nonsense. There are a lot of things that point that way, but that one's not one of 'em.

    I am curious, though, WOL. That video you posted makes a fine argument. But what would you say about a lawyer who sent private eyes to sabotage witnesses?
     
  16. SuperDave

    SuperDave Well-Known Member

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    I suppose so.

    That doesn't apply here, WOL. The Rs were millionaires who could hire the best legal talent around, a law firm that owns half the state and had business ties with the DA's office. So why bring it up?
     
  17. Wings Of Light

    Wings Of Light Member

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    I was talking generally, not about any specific case.
     
  18. Wings Of Light

    Wings Of Light Member

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    There is an unbelievable amount of bias and misunderstanding behind classifying that as "sabotaging witnesses." As long as they stay within the law, which Mackey's PI's certainly always have, it's not only okay, but should be encouraged.

    Using private investigators is an extremely smart thing to do, and unfortunately something you can only do if you have lots of money. They will dig up a lot of (often exculpatory) evidence that the police either don't find, or choose to ignore...

    The entire Kobe Bryant case, which Pamela handled, would have turned out completely different if they hadn't of used private investigators... which eventually lead to the discovery that the girl in that case had slept with multiple men the weekend after she claimed she was raped, and bragged about it when she was out partying that weekend as well.

    It was 100% the result of those PI's that exposed the girl for what she was.

    Edit... Owns half the state and had business ties with the DA's office? Where are you getting this? Most defense attorneys, especially high profile one's, have relationships with the DA because they deal with them so often. Mackey was a public defender too, and a lot of other defense attorneys are previous DA's. That's just how it works. Statements like "owns half the state" and "business ties to the DA" are unsubstantiated and foolish.
     
  19. MurriFlower

    MurriFlower Inactive

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    Statistics are funny things aren't they. There's an old joke that goes, what are the chances of getting on an airplane where someone has a bomb? One in a million. Well then what are the chances of getting on an airplane where there are two people with bombs? One in ten billion. Solution: Safest way to fly is to take your own bomb.

    This is what HOTYH has been saying. You can't quote a statistic for this particular murder as it doesn't fit into any 'pigeon hole' that there is a statistic for. To demonstrate, perhaps you can give me your estimate of the likelihood (statistically) for the following.

    Statistically:
    the chances of a parent being involved in their childs murders is?
    the chances of two parents being involved in their childs murder is?
    the chances of two parents being involved, one of whom caused (accidentally) a life threatening head injury and the other who (deliberately) garotted the child to cover up for the first injury and for previous sexual abuse?
    the chances of two parents being involved, one of whom caused (accidentally) a life threatening head injury and the other who (deliberately) garotted the child to cover up for the first injury and for previous sexual abuse and one parent then writing a two and a half page ransom note to cover up their crime?

    I could go on, but I think you're probably getting the idea. With every layer added, the chances of this occurring reduces statistically.

    So while it might sound impressive to state a flat statistic for parents murdering their children, this fails to take into account the other factors in the murder of JBR.
     
  20. DeeDee249

    DeeDee249 New Member

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    Not unsubstantiated. Hunter had personal, social and business relationships with some of the R defense lawyers. If he'd been ethical at all, he'd have recused himself from prosecuting this case.
     
  21. SuperDave

    SuperDave Well-Known Member

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    My point exactly.
     

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