WV WV - Sodder Family - 5 children, Christmas eve 1945 - #4

Another thing to add is what to make of John Sodder's statements to police?

He first said that he ran into one of the rooms, and shook the kids screaming for them to come downstairs. Tragically, if they weren't already dead, why didn't they follow him? Than he later recanted his statement to say that he yelled out to them, thought he heard them answer, but did not see them. John was the only one in the family who never talked about the fire. Did he really see the kids in the bedroom? Were they already dead from asphyxiation? Did John go into shock never telling the family what he saw, feeling guilty all the years that he couldn't save them?
. . .
Satch
EBM
I believe that's it exactly: they were either already dead or unconscious and near death.
 
EBM
I believe that's it exactly: they were either already dead or unconscious and near death.

Very tragic,

I am moving closer to the kids dying in the fire and not a kidnapping. The kids I think went upstairs to bed. Whether or not they did their chores is unknown. Marion fell asleep. The fire was DEFINITELY ARSON though. Someone threw an explosive device at the house. Exactly what Jennie heard. The fire probably began around 12:45 am.

When Jennie woke up and saw all the lights on and drapes open and doors unlocked, I think the kids in their excitement with it being Christmas, just forgot to lock up the house. Marion was supposed to remind them, but had fallen asleep. I think it was so fortunate that Jennie work up and smelled smoke, or the whole family could have died. With the horror of the fire made even worse by it starting upstairs, the survival rate would have been stronger for all if it had been a downstairs fire.

No bones or teeth belonging to the family were found, because the fire department didn't even try or care to try. This is because of low manpower, it being Christmas, and Chief Morris lack of experience made him look like an idiot. A buffoon in the face of a Christmas Eve tragedy. Critical evidence was lost or contaminated that would have solved this case. A better trained LE staff and fire department, would would have been their within minutes, not seven hours later, would have cared, dug, deeper, worked harder.

George Sodder's mistake in bulldozing the site was due to an emotionally painful grief that carried Jennie and he for the rest of their lives. At first believing that his five children died in the flames, it took between six months to a year for them to suspect kidnapping. A lot of times, parents of the missing, may often turn to an abduction theory, in their minds hoping that their children can escape their captors and come home. It gives them that hope that their kids may still be alive. Accepting death is a loss of hope for the grieving who's loved ones are missing.

There were actually two guys roaming around outside that night I read who cut the phone lines and took the block and tackle, as well as moved the ladder. I think at least one of them had something to do with the fire. I have a hard time believe that they were there just their to rob the family. If the fire had not yet started. They had no business being there. Did they seek revenge against George for a business deal gone bad on their end? If not, what was their motive for the robbery?

I cannot see how one could kidnap five kids at one time? Now this did happen with three kids who went missing, The Beaumont Children in Australia in 1966. That case is here with some recent updates! You may want to check that out here:

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/sh...a-7-amp-Grant-Beaumont-4-Adelaide-26-Jan-1966

Satch
 
I see that there is a Georgio Soddu arriving in New York from Naples on 4/1/1911 aboard the Verona. Age is listed as 15 which isn't far off on the date of birth for George Sodder who was born 11/24/1894 according to many records. I don't see any other connection to him aboard this ship. It appears he traveled alone. I checked the stowaways aboard as well and no luck. Does anyone know this brothers name that supposedly came with him?

I find it strange that the other Italians in that area, returned to Italy multiple times throughout their lives and George Sodder didn't.

Who is C.C. Tinsley? What does the C.C stand for? I found O.C. (Oscar Cole) Tinsley and do not see that he had a brother named C.C. as I read elsewhere.
 
Hi all. Okay, where do I start? First post.

I have been reading into the Sodder family tragedy for a little while now, trying to take in all the information, evidence and lack thereof, witness testimonies, conspiracies, etc.

PLEASE READ THIS ENTIRE POST IN FULL. I would love to know your thoughts on my theories. I think they are definitely worth thinking about.

Firstly, I must admit that I am not an expert in this matter and am far from educated in all the pieces so far of the Sodder family tragedy. What I have composed below is simply a theory based on the information I am aware of, the theories already put forth, and my formal education in security, terrorism, and counter-terrorism.

Secondly, my theory may not be pleasing to everyone and I would probably advise that the family members who are members of this forum do not read my post below as I strongly do not want to offend you. Please note I have no intention of offending anyone. This particular case has me ever so intrigued and pieces of this puzzle make sense to me, again, based on the information already in existence. I, personally, have no evidence myself. This, again, is nothing more than my theory.

I do not know how to compose my theory, so I have opted for bullet points. I apologise in advance if any of it is not clear, and I apologise if I have got anything wrong.

I will firstly list the information that I am aware of, that has relevance to my theory. If my knowledge of the information is incorrect, I apologise.
• I am of the understanding that one of the Sodder son’s was active in the military?
• I believe that the Sodder parents were Italian immigrants?
• I understand that Papa Sodder was an outspoken critic of Mussolini in the American Italian community?
• I understand that a woman claims to have seen 4 of the 5 Sodder children in the company of Italian-speaking men supposedly some time after the fire events? Was this in Florida?
• I understand that a private detective was sent to look for the children, but disappeared?
• I understand that Papa Sodder received a Black Hand letter?
• I understand that a shifty insurance salesman threatened the family, and had ties with the coroner?
• I understand there were delays with the fire department attending and the credibility of their findings and reports afterwards?
• There were little to no human remains found?
• Phone wires were cut, a ladder was stolen and the thief arrested, a prank phone call was made, and a man in a car was watching the children prior to the events of that night?
• A photo supposedly of the 9 year old son was sent some 20 years late with information on the back? From Kentucky?
• A letter revealing that the oldest missing daughter was in a covenant?
• The youngest missing daughter was supposedly seen in a ballet dance photo?

I am not sure if I have missed anything else that is important to my theory, but here goes. Please note that it may be all over the place, not in chronological order.

I believe that the children were the victims of a kidnapping ploy from the Italian mafia, and I will explain as best as I can as to why I believe this. My knowledge of the mafia and associated groups is acquired from my professional studies in security and terrorism, and my own research.
• The children were ‘taken’ in 1945. During this era, we are all well aware that the Italian mafia had a significant foothold and powerful influence in the American community. By 1945, even prior, the Italian mafia had spread to all parts of America, especially Florida, not just in NY, NJ, Chicago and the like. West Virginia, the home of the Sodder family, had a mafia crime gang operating.
• The majority of American-Italian mobsters were supporters, and even financiers, of the American war efforts against the Axis powers, however, there were a number of key underworld folk who openly supported their Italian brothers.
• There were, obviously, numerous American Italian underworld individuals and families who had ties to the old countrymen, the Sicilian Mafia.
• The Black Hand representation can mean two things. One, is a sign within the Italian underworld and the community to mean extortion. Two, it is a name given to the N’drangheta or Calabrese mafia; a crime empire that is often seen as more vile, vicious and daring, yet more unorganised than the Sicilian mafia. The two differing mafia heritages have been in competition with each other, although I am not sure if they were during the 40’s.
• There is reason to believe that the mafia clan operating in West Virginia were either called the Black Hand, or used the symbol against local Italian communities to extort money.
• In Italy, Mussolini had attempted to erase the Sicilian mafia and the Camorra – a mafia-like underworld crime structure seen in mainland Italy. However, from my research, Mussolini did not directly target the N’drangheta and may even had financial support from them, or financially supported them, or had them support his troops as Calabria was an Italian military stronghold and subsequently a main target of the Allied invasion of Italy.
• The photo sent to the Sodder family had a letter and number on it A90132 or A90135. Your investigations have led me to believe this is a postcode in Palermo, Sicily – a mafia stronghold.
• The prime Sicilian mafia kingpin in the 1940’s, I think was Michele Navarra, who had ties to the American Italian mafia, although I am not sure which crime family.

So, my theory spans in three directions…
• Papa Sodder was in the coal business right? What was his positon? What was his financial position during this time?
• Prior to the events of the fire, it is said that an insurance broker threatened Papa Sodder saying his house would burn because he wouldn’t sign an insurance policy with them. Is there reason to believe that maybe Papa Sodder was threatened with extortion from the Black Hand, and lied about the intimidator being an insurance broker to cover any involvement with the mafia community?

• Direction 1 – Papa Sodder was an outspoken critic of Mussolini in the Italian community of America. Perhaps word got back to Mussolini supporters that Sodder’s son was in the American military and Papa Sodder hated Mussolini. A Calabrese mafia figure may have lost family in the war at the hands of American troops and sought revenge on the Sodder family. This may explain why the female who said she saw 4 of the 5 children with some Italian men, say that the men were speaking Italian and abused her verbally in Italian. Did they not speak English? Were they sent directly from Calabria in Italy? After the war ended in September, Italians were given more accessibility to come to America and visit their families there, and vice versa. These travels to and fro would have been in abundance as families rush to see if their loved ones survived.

• A phone call at night may have been to confirm whether or the not the family was home, and/or still awake.
• The phone cord was then cut in what is said a mistake and meant to cut power lines.
• The ladder was stolen and tossed nearby to hinder a recovery attempt of the upstairs area. The man who stole this was arrested but not suspected of involvement. Could he be part of the ploy? And let off by corrupt lawmen? See point below.
• The mafia have a reputation for having officials and lawmen on their side. Could they have bribed the coroners and firemen to obstruct their duties as much as possible?
• Perhaps the oldest missing son put up a fight and was in turn slain?
• The rest of the children were separated and disbursed. The son was sent to Italy, perhaps Palermo. The daughter was sent to a nun’s covenant in St Louis as suggested in that letter that the Sodder’s received, the other daughter was given or sold to a family and appeared in that ballet picture.
• Christmas eve could have been the chosen date as it would be likely that all the family would be present in the home.
• The fire starter, described as a rubber pineapple looking device, does sound like it resembles a smaller WWII napalm incendiary device. Those devices were tear-shaped shells with a set of fins on their rear. Google search “Napalm bomb WW2” to see a picture. Some of these bombs were encased in plastic like material. The chances of the mafia getting these are quite easy as they would have had contacts in the army, especially with the left over surplus since the war had ended.
• Direction 2 – Similar to direction 1, except the mafia was the local Black Hand society and tried to extort the Sodder family but were turned away. Again, the children’s fates were as described as above.
• Direction 3 – Similar again, but the mafia was an out of town group, hence why they were supposedly spotted in Florida.
• The detective who went looking, was either murdered or bribed when he got to close.
• The photo may have been sent by someone who knew what happened. Perhaps, Louis Sodder didn’t remember being kidnapped, or were told his family had died, and grew up unaware of the Sodder story, so he never thought to go home or contact anyone.
• The rest of the children were young enough to be lead to believe that their family had died, or whoever they are now with is their real family.
• The kids could have been smuggled to Italy quite easily with the abundance of American-Italian travel in the months after the war. See points above.
• The photo of Louis was apparently sent from Kentucky. If you recall, the letter claiming the daughter was in a nun’s covenant said she was in St Louis, right next to Kentucky.
• AND I HATE TO SAY THIS…but could “ilil boys” be a spelling error for “Illinois”. I mean, again, the photo was sent from Kentucky, the state next to Illinois, and again, there was a letter claiming the daughter was in a covenant in St Louis, Illinois. The photo message reads I love brother Frankie ilil boys… the grammar is not that great…could it be someone who thinks the name of the state is Illiboys instead of Illinois? Or can't spell Illinois?
• Illinois had a substantial mafia outfit in the 40’s. Capone, anyone?
• I think, regardless, Papa Sodder pissed someone off to a point where they felt it necessary to punish him by taking away his children forever. I think it rings more personal, than strictly financial. I don’t think whoever did it intended to kill them, as there were no further attempts on the Sodder family’s lives OR it is as I described in Direction 1, and those responsible were directly from Italy, and returned there quickly, failing to kill the Sodder’s in the fire.

As I said, these are just my theories based off my knowledge thus far, and my knowledge of mafia operations in Italy and abroad. The theory works and is logical if it were true.
I apologise for any mistakes and if I have offended anyone.

o_O
 
Just joined the group because I am fascinated by mysteries and this one is a good one. As I have read about this fire on the internet and have read through the threads here I go back and forth what happened. Here are a few of my thoughts on the case:
  • I know there was talk about George angering the mafia about his beliefs on Mussolini but Italians at that time hated Mussolini and I doubt they would have gone as far as killing his children.
  • I don't believe there was an incendiary device thrown on the roof. I believe what she heard was a fuse popping that started the fire and because she was sleepy her sense of direction was off and thought it came from the roof. Even if someone had thrown an incendiary device on the roof the air and surface temperature was way too cold for it to start a fire.
  • The phone call was probably just a drunk woman at a party and the kids probably just left the lights on and the door unlocked because they thought Marion would take care of that.
  • It was mentioned before but I will mention it again. I don't think that life insurance salesman actually threatened George but George took what the salesman said out of context because his English wasn't that good.
  • I wonder if what the bus driver actually saw was fire shooting out of the windows and not fire balls being thrown on the roof. I am sure by driving by and keeping his mind on the road he didn't get a very good look.
I believe the fire was started by faulty wiring and that the five children died in the fire. I just don't think there is any way that someone could kidnap all five children without bringing help and then you are just inviting attention not to mention running into the guy already there robbing the house. I don't think we will ever know the true answer unless they dig up the burn site and do a thorough investigation. When George plowed the house under he destroyed any chance of finding clues to what actually happened. Unless George was trying to hide something I have no idea why he would do this.
 
Just joined the group because I am fascinated by mysteries and this one is a good one. As I have read about this fire on the internet and have read through the threads here I go back and forth what happened. Here are a few of my thoughts on the case:
  • I know there was talk about George angering the mafia about his beliefs on Mussolini but Italians at that time hated Mussolini and I doubt they would have gone as far as killing his children.
  • I don't believe there was an incendiary device thrown on the roof. I believe what she heard was a fuse popping that started the fire and because she was sleepy her sense of direction was off and thought it came from the roof. Even if someone had thrown an incendiary device on the roof the air and surface temperature was way too cold for it to start a fire.
  • The phone call was probably just a drunk woman at a party and the kids probably just left the lights on and the door unlocked because they thought Marion would take care of that.
  • It was mentioned before but I will mention it again. I don't think that life insurance salesman actually threatened George but George took what the salesman said out of context because his English wasn't that good.
  • I wonder if what the bus driver actually saw was fire shooting out of the windows and not fire balls being thrown on the roof. I am sure by driving by and keeping his mind on the road he didn't get a very good look.
I believe the fire was started by faulty wiring and that the five children died in the fire. I just don't think there is any way that someone could kidnap all five children without bringing help and then you are just inviting attention not to mention running into the guy already there robbing the house. I don't think we will ever know the true answer unless they dig up the burn site and do a thorough investigation. When George plowed the house under he destroyed any chance of finding clues to what actually happened. Unless George was trying to hide something I have no idea why he would do this.

Good stuff!

I dispute the faulty wiring. Too much weirdness and coincidence for the conditions of this case to be attributed to faulty wiring. Than, I take it that you do not believe the account of the youngest daughter playing in the yard and finding a grenade-like device? I think that would give credit to the bus driver's account of him seeing fireballs or some explosive thrown on the roof of the house and rolling off the roof. It matches the sound that Jennie heard. There's no evidence to corroborate accounts of other witnesses.

The strangest is the guy cutting the phone line. He said he intended to cut the power lines. Why was he not punished more severely? And than the other guy stealing the bait and tackle? Do you think that he was the one that moved the ladder? It sounds like LE and residence did not like this family. With no one offering to help in a tragic situation. So much about this case is strange.

Satch
 
There's too much hinky stuff that happened in the days leading up to the fire for me to believe faulty wiring was the cause...

1) IIRC, there was the life insurance policy guy that came by and said that if George didn't buy insurance, his house would be burned to the ground and something would happen to his children. Hmmm...very weird indeed.

2) The ladder was "conveniently" moved so the top floor couldn't be reached to get the children out.
 
The strangest is the guy cutting the phone line. He said he intended to cut the power lines. Why was he not punished more severely? And than the other guy stealing the bait and tackle?

Correction: Should read, "Block and Tackle."

Satch
 
There's too much hinky stuff that happened in the days leading up to the fire for me to believe faulty wiring was the cause...

1) IIRC, there was the life insurance policy guy that came by and said that if George didn't buy insurance, his house would be burned to the ground and something would happen to his children. Hmmm...very weird indeed.

2) The ladder was "conveniently" moved so the top floor couldn't be reached to get the children out.

Exactly,

#1 I think was in October of that year. Maybe longer than that.
#2. Yes, you can't take that kind of circumstance and attribute the fire to "Faulty Wiring."

Satch
 
This article has a bit more information not found in other sources:

Their fate: Kidnapped-murdered or are they still alive?

Satch

After reading this article, it made me question if the children who had stayed up to play with new toys ever went to bed? Weren’t they told to do their chores before going to bed? Could they have been snatched when they went outside?

Maybe the bad guys were surprised if they went into the house and found the children up and playing? So they decided to take them as they couldn’t kill children who were awake in the house that was about to be burnt. I don’t think kidnapping the children was in the original plan.

Such a sad story for parents to not know what happened to half of their children and the missing children Not knowing the true story of their life, probably.
 
After reading this article, it made me question if the children who had stayed up to play with new toys ever went to bed? Weren’t they told to do their chores before going to bed? Could they have been snatched when they went outside?

Maybe the bad guys were surprised if they went into the house and found the children up and playing? So they decided to take them as they couldn’t kill children who were awake in the house that was about to be burnt. I don’t think kidnapping the children was in the original plan.

Such a sad story for parents to not know what happened to half of their children and the missing children Not knowing the true story of their life, probably.

Here's a big problem with the abduction theory,

After originally saying "no" Jennie allows the children to stay up to play with their toys, on the condition that they did their chores before going to bed. It is believed that she wanted one of the older kids up to remind them of that. It seems that Marion was the one who stayed downstairs, But she had fallen asleep. I think the kids went to bed. I find it impossible to believe that Marion would have slept soundly through an abduction inside the house. They could have been taken outside and than abducted. But the manpower to take five kids would have to be pretty intense.

There's another account of a neighbor reportedly seeing kids in the upstairs windows. This is claimed to be during the fire! I don't think that kidnappers would have known who was going to be upstairs and downstairs. The plan was to destroy the house to hurt George and his family on Christmas. Abductors going through a seething inferno would be far too risky. Also, who would come all the way from the Italian mafia to West Virginia to kidnap five kids? I also don't think the locals would have the criminal mind to carry out that kind of act. It would be easier for someone to throw an explosive at the house, and start a fire, knowing that the damage would be done, and with the poor manpower and incompetence of LE at that time, could get away with arson.

It is likely that the kids who went to bed were sleeping when the smoke filled their rooms and they died of asphyxiation. Many times, people who die in house fires, die more from asphyxiation from the smoke than from burns. Asphyxiation may also explain why no screams were heard from the upstairs bedrooms and attic where the younger ones had slept. Tragically they were already dead. They could have died in their sleep from the smoke. I think this is what John saw screaming out to them, before George Jr. and he ran downstairs. It is believed that Marion took baby Silvia, and ran outside.

I think that unless these kids were abducted at gunpoint and later killed, they would make EVERY EFFORT possible to re-communicate with their family. Italian families are so strong with the love and support of each other, after all these years, and all this time, you from hear from some of the kids. Many believe that that postcard that Jennie got is not Louis Sodder, claiming that the ears and mouth forensics do not match.

Satch
 
Some good points being made.

There are only two ways that this mystery will be fully resolved. One is if one of the children reappears but none of them has made an appearance in over 70 years and as much as I would love that to happen I doubt it will. The other way is to completely excavate where the house was but I don't know if the owners of the property would want that unless you pay them a good amount of money.
 
6 Terrifying Unsolved Crimes You've Never Heard Of

The case of the missing Sodder children is little known outside West Virginia today. It is one of those mysteries that might stir pages of message board discussion, but you won’t find much more than that. The mysteries surrounding the Sodders have accumulated through the years. Theories that George’s antifascist views (he’d been born in Sardinia and loathed Italian dictator Benito Mussolini) led to a kidnapping and fire-bombing. Theories that they children were taken and sent to different homes under different names. But there was no innocent reason for that many children to vanish in the night. Something happened to them, something secret, and no one ever learned what that was.
 
Some good points being made.

There are only two ways that this mystery will be fully resolved. One is if one of the children reappears but none of them has made an appearance in over 70 years and as much as I would love that to happen I doubt it will. The other way is to completely excavate where the house was but I don't know if the owners of the property would want that unless you pay them a good amount of money.

IIRC, George dug up the ground once already and nothing was found.
 

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