Found Deceased WY - Gabrielle ‘Gabby’ Petito, 22, Grand Teton National Park, 25 Aug 2021 #85

[Mike in WNY]

Standard of proof in civil court differs from criminal court.

Civil court found OJ SImpson responsible for the deaths of Nicole Brown Simpson and Ron Goldman

CA - O.J. Simpson & the murders of Nicole Brown, Ron Goldman, 1994 *not guilty*

I happen to be a Simpson Trial junkie. I believe that what Simpson says in the book is pretty much what happened that night. In his Civil Trial deposition, Simpson said that he talked to Nicole on the phone around 9pm that night. She probably said one last thing he didn't like. It is known...

www.websleuths.com

and civil court found Adam Shacknai responsible for the death of Rebecca Zahau

Rebecca Zahau Wrongful Death/ADAM SHACKNAI FOUND RESPONSIBLE #6

So in the end, it was all about money for the Zahaus. Nothing but MONEY. Adam Shacknai was framed just so the Zahaus could make a big paycheck off of their sister’s suicide. This was a travesty of the justice system. San Diego should be ashamed, as should all that helped this family spread...

www.websleuths.com

I expect this is the aim of this legal action.

jmho ymmv lrr

Point taken about standard of proof. Absolutely agree. And, I guess that's the underlying issue... the information is just not that strong... even to those on the "inside" (surely with additional non-public information). Indeed, it isn't even strong/meaningful enough to support an ongoing active investigation or the like. Nor is it strong enough to even secure/retain for use should additional information be discovered. And I'm at a loss as to how even a so-called civil "guilty" finding will figuratively avenge the plaintiff's daughter's death. Spanking a once removed party for a totally different transgression? (Unless, I suppose, this is step one in trying to demonstrate that the defendants are responsible for the actual death.) That's my take on it.

 

[NCWatcher]

Your point about shipping overnight on the weekend cannot be ignored. While it is available through the USPS's Priority Express (which includes Sundays and holidays), from what I can find, that is only available in larger metropolitan areas.

Riley says the letter appears to have been written after GP died, and he states he was led to believe BL got the letter before he arrived back in North Port. These are not definitive facts, of course, but if this is what they believe, then the letter had to be sent to somewhere for BL to receive it, it had to have been mailed and picked up between Aug. 28 and Sept. 1, and no matter how much it doesn't make sense, it had to happen (if their timeline is correct).

If BL killed GP on the 27th, he chose to hang around the area for at least two more days. Why? It sounds good that he was waiting for a package delivered to Jackson, but maybe he wasn't. Maybe the package was going to be mailed to another location along his route home and he was waiting to time his arrival on the right day. He could have picked up the letter at any point, including as late as Sept 1. Maybe the letter was never even mailed, but left at some location in FL, where he could pick it up before he got home. Maybe this was all an attempt to communicate without being traced. IDK. It sounds ridiculous, but the dates are what Riley provided, not ones we are making up.

So much of this lawsuit goes against the direction I have tended to lean towards in regards to the Ls knowledge, but as has been pointed out, what the lawyers are saying, and the claims being made, have yet to be substantiated publicly with evidence. However, that doesn't mean the evidence isn't there, we just don't know.

Good points.

It's possible that a letter and/or package could have been sent somewhere else besides WY. I'm just not getting why anyone would have been so determined to avoid using phones. Even burner phones. Hanging around for a few days where you've left a dead body to time the pick up of a package in that town or in another town just to avoid using a phone seems so dumb. Maybe BL would have done that but would RL have instructed him to do that? Or is it possible he spun her a yarn?

Of course, as you say in your next post, the P's date of death may be wrong. I'm not sure what they base their DoD on. The FBI never gave a DoD.except to say GP was dead by the time BL accessed those accounts (Aug 30) We also didn't seem to see a big LE focus on the L's while B was missing. LE didn't arrest the L's or seem to waver from their belief BL could be found in the swamp. So I'm not sure how much reliance there was on this mysterious RL aid letter.

If there really was all this choreography going on in order to get a secret letter written after GP was dead into BL's hands, why would he have kept it? Why would the L's have kept it? Surely if my son was missing I'd have looked in the house and in his room for clues. The odd story about the letter having been in the van but found in the house makes no sense to me. The only way I see that could work (because I doubt the L's answered questions about the letter) is for the letter to be found in a container of van crap in the house-- and even that doesn't prove the letter was ever in the van. But wouldn't the L's have searched stuff to make sure there was no note or other clues? Or if you believe they knew everything, wouldn't they have searched stuff to make sure it was "clean?" The van had been taken away on Sept 11. The house wasn't searched until Sept 20. It surely seems someone too paranoid to talk on the phone might have been concerned about what happened to that letter IF it was really written after GP was dead. I'm not sure it was though.

I suspect RL thought there were all kinds of ways for BL's association with GP to lead to grief. The fights everyone said they had, her father habitually calling their son by a girl's name, GP's desire to live a life "on the road," drug use, the fact the 20-something couple was reliant on the L's and on CL for free housing...I remembe NS said about GP"a desire to travel something like "Some people think getting a job or going to school is important but we are jealous Gabby has chosen to live a van life instead." It's possible the L's didn't think van life was a great choice though.

JMO

 

[steeltowngirl]

John Kelly, a criminal profiler and psychotherapist, and Jason Jensen, a private investigator, also called Laundrie's version of events 'farcical.'

And, even if he did kill Petito out of mercy: 'Euthanasia is not legal in any state, anywhere. Euthanasia is murder.'

Kelly also told FOX News that he was frustrated that Laundrie 'tiptoed around the confession.

'He wanted to serve it up as a mercy killing.

'That's the thing that's bugging me more than anything,' Kelly said. 'He found her breathing heavily and gasping for breath, so he decided to choke her out?'

He continued to say that it made no sense that he would strangle Petito on the spot rather than drag her back to their van to get some help.

'I don't believe in all this accident stuff, because how can you say you love somebody so much, you can't go on without her, you love her so much you're willing to commit suicide like a Romeo and Juliet?

'She's hurt, and will not go and get help for her.

'And not only will you not go the extra mile,' he said, 'you will not even report her missing.'
……
Jensen also said he found Laundrie's story suspect, saying: 'He writes this farcical tale about her falling down and getting injured while crossing Spread Creek, and describes how he couldn't leave here behind.'

He called the notebook passage 'an attempt to rewrite history.'

'The truth is he killed her because he was a domestic abuser,' Jensen said. 'He strangled her, and had done so before.'
…..
'The only thing I give him credit for, in any way, is he decided to get eaten up by animals himself,' Kelly said.

Medical examiners lash Brian Laundrie's claim of mercy killing

Two of America's top medical examiners have called into question Brian Laundrie's claims that he killed Gabby Petito out of mercy after she was suffering from hypothermia.

www.dailymail.co.uk

 

[TL4S]

Good points.

It's possible that a letter and/or package could have been sent somewhere else besides WY. I'm just not getting why anyone would have been so determined to avoid using phones. Even burner phones. Hanging around for a few days where you've left a dead body to time the pick up of a package in that town or in another town just to avoid using a phone seems so dumb. Maybe BL would have done that but would RL have instructed him to do that? Or is it possible he spun her a yarn?

Of course, as you say in your next post, the P's date of death may be wrong. I'm not sure what they base their DoD on. The FBI never gave a DoD.except to say GP was dead by the time BL accessed those accounts (Aug 30) We also didn't seem to see a big LE focus on the L's while B was missing. LE didn't arrest the L's or seem to waver from their belief BL could be found in the swamp. So I'm not sure how much reliance there was on this mysterious RL aid letter.

If there really was all this choreography going on in order to get a secret letter written after GP was dead into BL's hands, why would he have kept it? Why would the L's have kept it? Surely if my son was missing I'd have looked in the house and in his room for clues. The odd story about the letter having been in the van but found in the house makes no sense to me. The only way I see that could work (because I doubt the L's answered questions about the letter) is for the letter to be found in a container of van crap in the house-- and even that doesn't prove the letter was ever in the van. But wouldn't the L's have searched stuff to make sure there was no note or other clues? Or if you believe they knew everything, wouldn't they have searched stuff to make sure it was "clean?" The van had been taken away on Sept 11. The house wasn't searched until Sept 20. It surely seems someone too paranoid to talk on the phone might have been concerned about what happened to that letter IF it was really written after GP was dead. I'm not sure it was though.

I suspect RL thought there were all kinds of ways for BL's association with GP to lead to grief. The fights everyone said they had, her father habitually calling their son by a girl's name, GP's desire to live a life "on the road," drug use, the fact the 20-something couple was reliant on the L's and on CL for free housing...I remembe NS said about GP"a desire to travel something like "Some people think getting a job or going to school is important but we are jealous Gabby has chosen to live a van life instead." It's possible the L's didn't think van life was a great choice though.

JMO

Pretty much agree. Trying to make sense of the timeline (or anything else, for that matter) is impossible. I did NOT see that mercy killing story coming, nor a letter from RL, regardless the timing. It's all so very, very odd.

Stepping back and trying to look at the big picture, I begin to feel like, as you've said, there were concerns among some of the adults that the relationship was troubled. Perhaps the Ps and Ss didn't see it because of the literal physical distance, but seemingly RL had worries. And rightfully so.

I think possible DV, drug use, immaturity, cramped living conditions, and mental health issues all combined in a toxic mixture of trouble that neither of them were prepared to deal with.

 

[carbuff]

Random thoughts:

I think the person who wrote that crazed fiction about Gabby's murder is capable of writing an equally crazy, equally fictional letter purporting to be from his mother offering to help him later, basically giving himself permission to do what he either wanted to do or had already done.

 

[Skigirl]

I don't know what, if any, evidence the Ps have to suggest BL killed GP on the 27th, but it all goes back to what we've discussed before: why the h*ll did he hang around the area for 2 days? It's why I always wondered if he maybe killed her on the 28th or 29th instead. I mean, I don't care if he called his mom, or didn't tell anyone, or was waiting for a package, or trying to decide what to do, etc. Two days is a long time to hang around with your van parked in a non-designated parking spot nearby the body of someone you killed. That means he tried to alibi himself with hitchhiking rides, sent deceptive texts from her phone, used her cards to make it look like she was still alive, etc. Then he comes up with multiple confession stories, any of which would likely go against the actions he took trying to make it look like she was still alive during his trip home. None of it makes sense...which likely shows his state of mind, I guess.

But, RL's letter to BL, and the whole saw in the cake comment, whether metaphoric, joking, etc., says a lot, imo. She thought BL was going to wind up in trouble because of GP. I don't take that lightly. I think that is a significant clue to things no matter when it was written and received.

The timeline really is a head-scratcher.

Was the murder date August 27th?

- BL's arrest warrant mentions that her last known sighting was August 27th. I assume that GP and BL were picked up on security cameras in Jackson Hole when they went to the Mexican restaurant where the witness said they had the altercation with staff. Staff there confirmed that BL and GP had been at the restaurant that day, and I believe they have the cc receipt with the date and time, so I accept that as of mid-day on the 27th, she was alive.

- The strange text that her mother received about "Stan" was on the 27th. I tend to concur with her mother's belief that GP did not write that text. I wonder what time it was sent?

- I tend to believe that GP was killed at night for a number of reasons, including the fact that she was found wearing a sweatshirt and I doubt he would have committed such a violent assault so close to a road without the cover of darkness. Sunset in Grand Teton on August 27th 2021 was a little after 8 PM Mountain Time. Was the text sent before or after that? If it was sent before 8 PM Mountain Time (6 PM Eastern Time) and she was still alive, had he... taken her phone from her?

I'm leaning toward thinking that the murder did occur on the night of the 27th, even though I originally thought it was far more likely that she was murdered on the 28th or 29th.

Assuming it did take place on the 27th, I have to wonder if he really waited until the 28th to call his parents? However, even if he called them immediately after the murder, and the murder took place immediately following sunset at 6 PM Eastern Time, it probably would have been too late to send a package overnight. If she sent overnight on Saturday, August 28th by USPS or courier, it would have been received on the 30th.

The trip, according to google maps, would have taken 36-37 hours. If he left on the 30th, say at noon, that would have given him 45 hours to make the 37 hour trip, which would have allowed 8 hours for stops for gas and for some sleep along the way.

Of course, it's possible that she sent it to some other location on route, or just gave him the letter when he arrived, but I'm leaning against it being sent to some third location because then it would add another bit of uncertainty and complication to an already complicated and perilous situation for the Laundrie family. I'm still not firmly of the belief in the above timeline, but I can't think of a good reason for him to have stuck around the area after her murder unless his mother was sending him something he really needed.

Is it possible that he didn't *know* if he'd be able to get into Gabby's account and his mother was sending cash? IDK.

 

[Megnut]

Do we know why Brian flew home?

I'll give the L's this --- same as the P's -- I don't think anyone thought the relationship could be deadly.

Did Brian fly home as an end to their relationship, then returned to Gabby to get back together? To settle up? I'd need context for what he and Gabby each believed and intended, what he'd told his parents, what they told him. And when.

It could've been the case that Brian's parents convinced Brian he had a right to or a share in the van. Theoretical: "but, Mom, if I take the van, Gabby will say I stole it and I'll go to jail." "If you go to jail, I'll bake you a cake with a saw in it."

For me, there are only a few points in time for that letter to have been written -- long before the events of that summer, in and around his brief trip home, or after he arrived home.

Tucked in his backback to read on his return flight.

Slid under his door while at home. Perhaps Brian spent days brooding in his room, talking to no one. Feeling sorry for his sorry self.

If she wrote the letter relative to his flight home, it would take on a whole new eerie meaning in light of what followed.

From his notebook, we know Brian is a storyteller. We don't know what he told his parents and when, but I think it's safe to say there came a moment when they must've known something, something bad must've happened, even if they didn't know exactly.

A letter she could've sent digitally. If Brian did wait in Moab for two days because of an incoming package, it wasn't just for a letter from his mommy. IMO

My speculation alone, but might she have sent him cash and his passport? That would explain the allegations in the civil suit.

JMO

 

[Skigirl]

Pretty much agree. Trying to make sense of the timeline (or anything else, for that matter) is impossible. I did NOT see that mercy killing story coming, nor a letter from RL, regardless the timing. It's all so very, very odd.

Stepping back and trying to look at the big picture, I begin to feel like, as you've said, there were concerns among some of the adults that the relationship was troubled. Perhaps the Ps and Ss didn't see it because of the literal physical distance, but seemingly RL had worries. And rightfully so.

I think possible DV, drug use, immaturity, cramped living conditions, and mental health issues all combined in a toxic mixture of trouble that neither of them were prepared to deal with.

I think the Laundries had reasons to be concerned about their son's behavior and mental state, and I would bet there was a long history of trouble with him. Perhaps the altercation at Moab didn't surprise them, but worried them a great deal. Cassie, his sister, started to say something during one of the interviews and stopped herself and it was subsequently edited out. I believe that the question was about whether she thought he flew or drove home, and she said something like, "I assumed he flew because that's what he did when he was... I shouldn't say that." I wish she had finished the sentence. When he was... what?

 

[BeachSky]

Hemingway said ‘Never go on trips with anyone you do not love.’

Hanging out in tight quarters quickly defines a pecking order. My ex Narc would rage over the slightest thing. I became afraid to travel with him. I do remember the punishment was most brutal if he had been publicly embarrassed or slighted (in his mind).
So Gab probably suffered the fallout of the Moab stop over & over. Cause they never let you forget that you wounded them in front of others. How dare you.

JM experience

 

[Skigirl]

Do we know why Brian flew home?

I'll give the L's this --- same as the P's -- I don't think anyone thought the relationship could be deadly.

Did Brian fly home as an end to their relationship, then returned to Gabby to get back together? To settle up? I'd need context for what he and Gabby each believed and intended, what he'd told his parents, what they told him. And when.

It could've been the case that Brian's parents convinced Brian he had a right to or a share in the van. Theoretical: "but, Mom, if I take the van, Gabby will say I stole it and I'll go to jail." "If you go to jail, I'll bake you a cake with a saw in it."

For me, there are only a few points in time for that letter to have been written -- long before the events of that summer, in and around his brief trip home, or after he arrived home.

Tucked in his backback to read on his return flight.

Slid under his door while at home. Perhaps Brian spent days brooding in his room, talking to no one. Feeling sorry for his sorry self.

If she wrote the letter relative to his flight home, it would take on a whole new eerie meaning in light of what followed.

From his notebook, we know Brian is a storyteller. We don't know what he told his parents and when, but I think it's safe to say there came a moment when they must've known something, something bad must've happened, even if they didn't know exactly.

A letter she could've sent digitally. If Brian did wait in Moab for two days because of an incoming package, it wasn't just for a letter from his mommy. IMO

My speculation alone, but might she have sent him cash and his passport? That would explain the allegations in the civil suit.

JMO

The return home after Moab, in retrospect for me, seems almost certainly related to the altercation in Moab. Remember during the stop when he said that he had wanted each of them to go take a walk to cool off when they were arguing? That sounds like the words of someone who has had some professional coaching about anger management. I wonder if he had a long history of anger management issues and had been taught to leave the situation, and so when things went so badly sideways in Moab, they quickly made arrangements for him to go home and cool off for a while before they resumed the trip. Or maybe there was some uncertainty about whether he would return at all, but he calmed down and decided to go back.

 

[carbuff]

Assuming it did take place on the 27th, I have to wonder if he really waited until the 28th to call his parents? However, even if he called them immediately after the murder, and the murder took place immediately following sunset at 6 PM Eastern Time, it probably would have been too late to send a package overnight. If she sent overnight on Saturday, August 28th by USPS or courier, it would have been received on the 30th.

Kind of a nit, but could be important: the time conversion is backwards. 8p Mountain time is 10p (22:00) eastern time.

If he waited even a couple of hours, it would have already been the 28th in Florida.

 

[Megnut]

Anybody know? While Brian was choking Gabby, what would happen if he let go before death but after breaking her hyoid bone? Is it possible that Gabby was still alive but in serious distress? Enough to try to run for her life?

Are the details of what really happened right there in his letter? Just jumbled in a pathetic attempt to exonerate himself.

No matter what he wrote, we know and the coronor knows she was strangled. That may start as DV without deadly intent, but to strangle someone to death or near to death takes t i m e and that means it's intentional....

Did Gabby somehow survived for minutes or hours after prolongued strangulation? Losing consciousness, growing cold while he lsid beside her doing nothing????

Well, until he made the next worse choice and picked up a rock.

JMO

 

[Sundog]

<snipped for focus>
My speculation alone, but might she have sent him cash and his passport? That would explain the allegations in the civil suit.

JMO

According to the Ps attorney, he said the assistance that RL wrote about in the letter to BL was not about helping him to leave the country.

 

[Megnut]

If Brian had any anger management training, IMO he perverted what he learned. Walking away is good. Walking away with the other person's vehicle, bad. Walking away with the other person's phone, keys, money, bad. Threatening abandonment, bad. And by 'bad' I mean abusive. So controlling.

I suspect that Brian's primary way of handling his anger was by handling Gabby's neck.

How I wish we could rewind her story.

JMO

 

[Skigirl]

Kind of a nit, but could be important: the time conversion is backwards. 8p Mountain time is 10p (22:00) eastern time.

Oh, you are totally right -- thanks for pointing that out -- and it actually makes a kind of big difference in my thinking about the text on the 27th.

If he killed her on the night of the 27th, he wouldn't have had control of her phone until 10 PM Eastern at the earliest, unless he took it away from her while she was still alive. What time did her mom get the "Stan" text? Was her grandfather really calling her enough that night that BL felt compelled to text her mom so that her grandfather didn't raise some sort of alarm that night?

It also gives him a little less time to get home by 9 AM on the 1st, too. If he left at 12pm MT/2pm ET on the 30th and arrived at 9am ET on Sept 1, he would have had 10 hours on the 30th, 24 hours on the 31st, and 9 hours on Sept 1 (10 + 24 + 9 = 43 hours) to complete a 37 hour trip. I used to be much better at math than I am apparently now

 

[carbuff]

Oh, you are totally right -- thanks for pointing that out -- and it actually makes a kind of big difference in my thinking about the text on the 27th.

If he killed her on the night of the 27th, he wouldn't have had control of her phone until 10 PM Eastern at the earliest, unless he took it away from her while she was still alive. What time did her mom get the "Stan" text? Was her grandfather really calling her enough that night that BL felt compelled to text her mom so that her grandfather didn't raise some sort of alarm that night?

It also gives him a little less time to get home by 9 AM on the 1st, too. If he left at 12pm MT/2pm ET on the 30th and arrived at 9am ET on Sept 1, he would have had 10 hours on the 30th, 24 hours on the 31st, and 9 hours on Sept 1 (10 + 24 + 9 = 43 hours) to complete a 37 hour trip. I used to be much better at math than I am apparently now

I hear you. My family is in Montana and I'm in Massachusetts, so it's a conversion I frequently have to make--and I still get it wrong half the time.

I agree about the time available for the trip. It's do-able for a young healthy driver, but it's rough.

I have always wondered whether the Stan text really was Gabby attempting to signal that she was in trouble without arousing BL's anger any further.

"I told you not to text your mom."
"I didn't, it's just about Stan annoying me again."

 

[wary]

Yeah, I thought it was an expression, like "Let them eat cake." But I googled it and all I could find was a recipe for "Easy bloody knife cake."

The File Inside the Cake: True Tales of Prison Escapes

Jailbirds really have tried to fly the coop by way of contraband—files, handsaws and even guns—hidden inside baked goods

www.smithsonianmag.com

(I googled: jailbreak saw in cake

The concept of baking a saw into a cake, (hacksaw blade, I’d guess,) has been around for a long time, in fact, fiction, or legend.

If RL really wrote it, I doubt that she meant it literally—I’d translate it as: I’ll do anything I can, legal or not legal, to keep you safe from the law.”

MOO

 

[Lillymac]

One thing I'm having a problem understanding is if there is evidence that points to the Laundries assisting Brian in a cover up, or escape, or that they were aware of Gabby's death, or where her body was, wouldn't the FBI or LE, have taken some sort of legal action against them? Wouldn't that be considered harboring a fugitive? Or point to them being complicent to the crime in some way. If this has been addressed in prior posts, I'm sorry to bring it up again. I could have missed it as I have not been following this thread these last few months.

 

[iamnotagolem]

Everyone keeps saying she may have sent the letter to Jackson. But more likely if RL sent BL something it was somewhere along his travels back to FL. It’s not hard to pull up a map, see where he’d be driving and have something ready for him to pick up as he drove through Lincoln, Kansas City, St Louis, Nashville, etc.

Whatever she sent she didn’t want it to leave a digital trace and anticipated him burning the letter so his eyes would be the only ones to see it.

 

[gliving]

Ok, so it's the Daily Mail and we all know they aren't the best at accuracy but this is in quotes which is supposed to mean it's verbatim. I can be a bit 'literal' at times and miss subtleties, still, this reads like she's baking an actual cake.

Brian Laundrie's mom 'offered to assist him,' Petito lawyer says

Patrick Riley, the lawyer for Gabby Petito's parents says that Brian Laundrie's mother wrote a letter to her son offering to help him after he strangled his girlfriend during a VanLife tour of the U.S.

www.dailymail.co.uk

"Riley claims that the newly surfaced letter could help prove the Petito family's case against the Laundries.

'There's no date on the letter but it appears to have been written between the time that Gabby was murdered and Brian committed suicide,' Riley said. 'There are scenarios presented by Roberta, for example, 'if you go to jail, I'll bake a cake and put a knife in it or saw in it.'"