PARENTS KILLED AMBER ALERT ISSUED FOR 13-YEAR-OLD DAUGHTER
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POLICE NEED PUBLIC'S HELP IN FINDING MISSING AND PREGNANT KIERRA COLES

You can't do what you don't know.....

Discussion in 'JonBenet Ramsey' started by Maikai, Apr 3, 2009.

  1. Maikai

    Maikai New Member

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    There were elements to this crime that in my opinion made it impossible for either of the Ramseys to have been involved (not to mention their past history, etc.) Those that think one or both of the Ramseys were involved, believe it was an accident. There was a small window of 8 hours or less for all this supposed staging to occur. A loving parent would not have had the wherewithal or criminal mind to come up with some of the aspects of the crime such as:

    *The references to movie lines. There is no evidence that the Ramseys had an interest in extortion movies. They didn't know the movie lines, so couldn't have written them. Not one extortion-type video was in the house---and their computers were checked. They didn't cruise the internet looking for ideas.

    *Constructing the garrotte. I'm sure the type of knot has been identified. It was a very specific knot, and the garrotte not something most people would know how to make. The perp had knowledge of this type of weapon.

    *Stun gun. Criminals around the Denver area used these as weapons. There is no evidence whatsoever that the Ramseys ever had a stun gun, let alone knew how to use one.

    The brutality of the murder indicates someone who was not a stranger to violence.

    I don't believe the Ramseys could have orchestrated any staging in the small window of time between when JBR went to bed and when Patsy called the police, and they did not have criminal minds. That alone should have been a flag to the Boulder police dept. You can't say this was an accident covered-up, without looking at the elements of any so-called staging, and the knowledge-base of the Ramseys.
     
  2. Nedthan Johns

    Nedthan Johns New Member

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    Boy if this post isn't rehashing I don't know what is. Point by Point, from someone who originally thought the Ramsey's "could be" innocent.

    M: There were elements to this crime that in my opinion made it impossible for either of the Ramseys to have been involved (not to mention their past history, etc.)

    N: There are many if not thousands of cases of seemingly normal people who have no history of violence who have commited crimes against others not to mention their own children Susan Smith is one of them. IMO Patsy Ramsey fits the psychological profile to commit such said crime/accident.


    M: Those that think one or both of the Ramseys were involved, believe it was an accident. There was a small window of 8 hours or less for all this supposed staging to occur. A loving parent would not have had the wherewithal or criminal mind to come up with some of the aspects of the crime such as:

    N: 8 hours! Do you realise how long 8 hours is? That's an entire work day. Heck in 8 hours I can type to sales proposals, surf the internet, etc. 8 hours is certainly long enough to cover a murder.

    M: *The references to movie lines. There is no evidence that the Ramseys had an interest in extortion movies. They didn't know the movie lines, so couldn't have written them. Not one extortion-type video was in the house---and their computers were checked. They didn't cruise the internet looking for ideas.

    N: LOL you make it sound like these movies were made especially for those interested in extortion. These were top rental videos at the time. Ransom was #1 at the box office. The Ramsey's rented movies. No need to cruise the internet, remembering lines from movies is not hard to do. Especially if one had just viewed them in the past month.

    M: *Constructing the garrotte. I'm sure the type of knot has been identified. It was a very specific knot, and the garrotte not something most people would know how to make. The perp had knowledge of this type of weapon.

    N: This knot was NOT difficult to tie and JR was an avid sailor. 1+1.

    M: *Stun gun. Criminals around the Denver area used these as weapons. There is no evidence whatsoever that the Ramseys ever had a stun gun, let alone knew how to use one.

    N: My pet peave. There is absoultely NO conclusive evidence that a stun gun was used in this crime. Why? Because the Ramsey (who admittingly were very wealthy) refused to exhume the body of their daughter at the request of Lou Smit to determine this. Right there alone is evidence IMO of a cover-up. There was a manual found in their home however regarding protecting onself and it in was a discription on how to use a stun gun. Either way no evidence one was used.

    M: The brutality of the murder indicates someone who was not a stranger to violence.

    N: Wrong, the brutality of a murder of a victim indicates that the perpetrator had close ties to the victim.

    M: I don't believe the Ramseys could have orchestrated any staging in the small window of time between when JBR went to bed and when Patsy called the police, and they did not have criminal minds. That alone should have been a flag to the Boulder police dept. You can't say this was an accident covered-up, without looking at the elements of any so-called staging, and the knowledge-base of the Ramseys.

    N: And I say that any perpetrator that stayed 8+ hours in that house without worrying about being discovered is just plain nonsense. Stranger abductions/kidnappings don't take hours to complete. To this this pedophile spent all this time with his victim and then 8 hours to cover it up seems pretty far fetched.
     
  3. Ames

    Ames New Member

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    Reddened by Ames..
    Boy, ain't THAT the truth. I have hashed and re-hashed this with Maikai, until I am blue in the face. I give up. Apparently Maikai hasn't done the research that we all have.
     
  4. Holdontoyourhat

    Holdontoyourhat Former Member

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    This is classic RDI. The assertion is that the Ramsey's rented movies, therefore they had seen and were inspired by the movie Ransom, which was #1 at the time. Reminds me of the '2.89 receipt' logic where a receipt for an item of the same price as black duct tape is concluded to be for tape. Nobody really knows if they bought tape or not. There's lots of stuff sells for the same price, nobody knows how many items. Could be 100's.


    Question for NJ: Do you know for a fact that the R's had ever even seen Ransom at the time their daughter was murdered, or are you just throwing that out there on probability? I mean, it was #1, they rented movies, so they had to have seen it, right?

    I've never seen Ransom. It has Harrison Ford in it, right?




    Wow. There are 1000's of examples worldwide of brutal, vicious murders where the killer did not know the victim more than a few hours.

    Where do you get your facts, anyway?
     
  5. Ames

    Ames New Member

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    Do you know for a fact that they didn't ?
     
  6. Sophie

    Sophie New Member

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    I know what Maikai means, but to me, emphasising this whole study of the behavioural pathology of the Ramseys and the discussion of movies and the window of opportunity for the crime is to ignore the fact that the same issues apply to an intruder - only more so given that the 'intruder' was operating in an alien environment. . An intruder only had 8 hours to write a ransom note (plus practice notes), dispense with JBR, escape without a trace, feed JBR pineapple, etcetera ad infinitum. Equally, given that the intruder had to know the Ramseys, who within their circle had any criminal antecedents? In fact, who anywhere ever has committed a crime quite like the JBR murder? If you are going to talk about the Ramseys' past, you have also to accept that no other criminal had likely form. IOW, these arguments cut both ways.
     
  7. Maikai

    Maikai New Member

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    They had not seen "Ransom." "Dirty Harry" movie lines were in the note....I think that was from the 70's, and a classic. It had been on TV. John Ramsey said "Speed" was on a plane one time, but he didn't have the earpieces. Most of that note was movie lines...except for the last sarcastic part, which I think was adlibbed on the spot. The rest of it, had been thought out before.

    The Boulder Camera had a movie line contest every year, with the results published in January. I think the ransom note idea could have come from that.

    Other possibilities of movies could be "Seven" with Kevin Spacey (ie: reference to beheading and proper burial). Also, the movie with Bett Midler where she is kidnapped..forget the name.

    I think the perp was proud of his cleverness with the note...but it indicates someone that had seen these movies.
     
  8. Maikai

    Maikai New Member

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  9. RiverRat

    RiverRat Patsy Ramsey to the Left

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    Oops....I should have given you the Heads-Up....Maikai has been around FOREVER and has far more interesting stories/visions to entertain us with! So, let's hear about your experiences instead, Maikai!
     
  10. Ames

    Ames New Member

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    I will say that Maikai is probably one of the friendliest IDI's that I have ever posted with. No matter what I say...Maikai never has a smart aleck remark...like some of them do.
     
  11. SuperDave

    SuperDave Well-Known Member

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    Before I get started, Maikai, I think it's helpful to remember who you're talking to. I used to be a very strong IDI. VERY strong. Obviously, that's done with now, and if you'de like to know why, I'd be happy to go over it (AGAIN), but for now, it's enough to know that I've been the route, and have made these arguments in the past.

    That's fairly clear.

    Not ALL. Most, I would imagine.

    Plenty of time. Take it from a salesman: 8 hours is a loooong time.

    You might as well move on.

    Movie lines are all over the place, Maikai. Heaven only knows how many I can list off the top of my head.

    Actually, the knots were very simple. Any dope could have made them.

    There's no evidence a stun gun WAS used. And I'm not just talking out my a** here. I happen to own one. And I've had myself zapped several times to see if it was a viable theory. Let's just say the results were part-in-parcel to my conversion...

    Someone sure tried to make it LOOK brutal, certainly.

    Whomever did this didn't have a criminal mind, either! It was amateur night; you could tell. This was not a perfect murder by design; it was a perfect murder (or almost perfect) by luck.

    It was, but in a much different way than you're thinking.

    What do you think I've been doing for the last 12 years?
     
  12. SuperDave

    SuperDave Well-Known Member

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    Nope, Mel Gibson, Rene Russo and Gary Sinise.

    (I get the feeling I'm going to regret that!)
     
  13. missyjane77

    missyjane77 Inactive

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    What is an IDI?
     
  14. TinaD

    TinaD Member

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    Someone who believes an "Intruder Did It" as opposed to an RDI - "Ramseys Did It".
     
  15. SuperDave

    SuperDave Well-Known Member

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  16. Tadpole12

    Tadpole12 Well-Known Member

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    Hi Maikai.

    I've seen Dirty Harry, 20 times and would be hard pressed for specifics .... I would have to be prompted? by watching the movie, by that I would remember the storyboards, the plot.

    That would be an odd talent, not exactly like photographic memory, but a talent for remembering dialogue ..... that's an idiosincracy?
    A movie refernce book .... would do the trick.






    Dirrty Harry, ransom note: http://www.filmsite.org/dirt.html

    To the City of San Francisco, I will enjoy killing one person every day until you pay me one hundred thousand dollars ($100,000). If you agree say so tomorrow morning in Personal Column San Francisco Chronicle and I will set up meeting. (closeup) If I do not hear from you it will be my next pleasure to kill a Catholic priest or Racist word [the last word isn't read outloud].
    SCORPIO
     
  17. Maikai

    Maikai New Member

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    Ha! You got that right....it's been at least l0 years, back to when Murphy had the forum (whatever happened to Murphy?), and then Jameson split off...even before that when Misty was on compuserve on the Crime forum. I think that was the first one I stumbled across, and at the time I was a bit critical about the pageant thing drawing attention to JBR, but never thought it was the Ramseys--I knew too much about the Boulder environment, and the resentment against the technology companies and nuevo rich moving in. A lot of people have come and gone...lost interest...some died. A Candy Rose has an exceptionally well-documented website on the past posters.

    I don't have visions...and my life the last year and a l/2 hasn't been that entertaining, since I retired early to take care of an elderly parent just about 24/7. My bad attempts at cooking, cleaning, taking care of a house etc. aren't too entertaining. I do have some experience now with incontinence issues, and things like Depends are godsends. Not unlike pullups used on JBR. I haven't come close to a homicidal rage when my dad has an accident.....and I don't have LHP coming in 3 days a week.
     
  18. Thinaire

    Thinaire New Member

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    John Ramseys elder son said that his family was JUST LIKE the one in the movie "Ransom."

    I will have to find the quote but believe its in ST book.
     
  19. Maikai

    Maikai New Member

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    That was a really good link--I bookmarked it. Some interesting tidbits:

    . [The film draws parallels with an actual series of murders committed by a gunman (the so-called Zodiac serial-killer) in the San Francisco Bay area in the late 1960s. The astrological name Scorpio, and the killer's taunting with coded, written notes are just a few of the similarities between the film's account and the real case. The Zodiac murderer was never identified or caught, however.]

    This was the first of many hard-hitting, action-packed sequels starring maverick, renegade cop Inspector "Dirty" Harry Callahan ("Inspector 71") who was famous for sarcastic one-liners, portrayed by steely-eyed Clint Eastwood in a career-boosting role.

    Also:
    "If I even think you're being followed, the girl dies. If you talk to anyone, I don't care if it's a Pekinese pissing against a lamppost, the girl dies...No car. I give you a certain amount of time to go from phone booth to phone booth. I ring four times. You don't answer by the fourth ring, I hang up and that's the end of the game. The girl dies...Cop!...I hope you're not stupid."

    And this reminds me of Steve Thomas...:

    After having found retribution his own extra-legal way by exterminating the heartless and sick terrorist, without following bureaucratic police procedures, he thoughtfully hurls his police badge (Inspector 2211, SF Police) into the stagnant pond with the body and then walks away. Knowing that he will ultimately be reprimanded and fired for his action, the unrepentant Harry 'throws away' the symbol of his future police career in disgust. [This scene pays homage to the final scene of High Noon (1952) when the lone Marshal contemptuously discards his badge in the dust after being betrayed by the entire Western community.]

    The Ramsey ransom note was based on movie lines and themes. If this was a kidnapping gone bad, and they had been able to take JBR out of the house, and JR would have paid the ransom without calling police, and JBR would have been returned, this would have been a big adverture, and no one worse off except JR out of $118,000 (if it would have ended at that).

    Also forgot to mention "Ricochet". Another movie reference. There was a magazine article found at the Ramseys house with his picture amoung others as entrepreneur of the year, except JR's pic had an X on it--similar to a closeup of a picture in Ricochet, in the perp's jail cell. I thought at first that was a red herring the police were using, but I think there was in fact a marked up picture found. Richochet was all about revenge.

    There were just too many movie reference in this crime, and the perp had to have an interest in this---and most likely someone on the younger side. In the pre-planning stage, I believe the perp(s) relished his cleverness in coming up with the note.

    I don't think the perp came into the house with the intention of killing JBR or even sexually assaulting her. Something went wrong in the basement....most likely the least part of a kidnapping that is thought out--how they would get the victim away.
     
  20. Maikai

    Maikai New Member

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    Thanks Ames. I don't believe in being confrontational..what's the point? In the whole scheme of things, the case doesn't affect most of us directly--but for whatever reason, those still posting have an interest in it, albeit we may not agree on who did it.
     

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