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Richard
11-18-2004, 08:09 AM
Oakland County Michigan; "The Babysitter" 1976-77

One or more child-killers stalked Oakland County in Michigan during 1976-77. Authorities are certain of a connection in the deaths of four victims, the first being Mark Stebbins, 12, who was abducted in Ferndale while walking to his home on February 13, 1976. His body was found in a parking lot six days afterwards, his corpse meticulously cleaned. Stebbins had been sexually assaulted and smothered to death. On December 12, twelve-year-old Jill Robinson was abducted in Royal Oak and her body found in Troy. Though no sexual assault was evident and the girl had been killed by a shotgun blast, she had also been scrubbed clean before her disposal.

The next certain victim was Kristine Mihelich, 10, who vanished in Berkely on January 2, 1977, and her corpse located nineteen days later in Franklin Village. Like the others, her body had been cleaned after her killer suffocated her death. The last of the series seems to be Timothy King, 11, who went missing on March 11 in Birmingham and found dead in a ditch near Livonia with his body scoured clean, his nails manicured, and his clothes freshly washed and ironed. King was also sexually assaulted before his sad death. By this point the press had picked up on the odd signature of the killings, dubbing the unknown perpetrator "The Babysitter" due to his apparent post-mortem care of the victims.

Other killings that occurred in the aea at the same time have been tentatively linked to the series. Cynthia Cadieux, 16, was abducted and bludgeoned to death on January 15, 1976. Missing from Roseville she was discovered nude in Bloomfield Township the next day. Just five days after Cadieux's disappearance Sheila Shrock was raped and shot dead at her home in Birmingham. Jane Allen, 13, was murdered by carbon monoxide poisoning after accepting a ride in Royal Oak and was found in Miamisburg, Ohio, on August 11, 1976. The 1972 slaying of teenager Donna Serra in Ray Township has also been mentioned as possibly being connected to the string of murders.

Though the body count is disputable, there is one thing for certain. At least one serial killer plied his trade in the normally quiet communities of Oakland County, never to be identified. A long-standing suspect who was killed ina 1981 auto accident has since been cleard of involvement by DNA testing, leaving investigators with little hope of solving this baffling case.

Click here: Unsolved Serial Killings; Cold Cases
http://www.geocities.com/verbal_plainfield/coldcases/coldcases.html

amandab
11-18-2004, 09:47 AM
Ooooooooh - Richard - thanks so much for posting this one!!!! I live in Oakland County, minutes from Troy, Royal Oak, and the other cities mentioned here, and this case has ALWAYS fascinated me......

Richard
11-18-2004, 11:20 PM
Michigan certainly has had its share of serial killers. Norman John Collins was "The Co-ed Killer" back in the late 1960's.
Coral Watts and Henry Lee Lucas each got their start in Michigan.
Then there was that guy who had been in the Michigan State Band who murdered some women. His case was profiled on TV a few years back when he was up for parole.
And then there is the guy who was recently convicted of killing Nancy Ludwig (he Northwest stewardess) and another woman.
Ted Bundy spent a little time visiting Ann Arbor in 1977 after escaping from a Colorado jail. He moved on to Florida soon afterward, and I don't believe that he was ever linked to any murders in Michigan.
Ted Kaczinski (the Unibomber) attended Graduate School at the University of Michigan in the mid 1960's.
It makes a person wonder if some of the unsolved murders might have been committed by some of these guys.

Helen Dagner
12-10-2004, 07:05 PM
Hi,so happy to be here...and to see that Richard started this thread...i have been working on this case for over 14years...and i spent 9mo's with John...who told me he is the OCCK...or The Babysitter...as some still call him.I have over40,000 post on the web...and am still at it...I would like all of you...who are Interested to go on line...see what is out there...and then come back...and we can talk....www.geocities.com/jtoddmatthews/Oakland_murders.html? This is the url...for the original story....you can however type into a search...Helen Dagner or Oakland County Child Killer...and you will find many post...of interest...This is the 28th year...that this case has gone unsolved.

Helen Dagner
12-10-2004, 07:08 PM
http://b4.boards2go.com/boards/board.cgi?&user=Serialkillerfacts04

Helen Dagner
12-10-2004, 07:15 PM
http://forum.americanindiantribe.com/viewforum.php?f=3

Richard
12-10-2004, 11:52 PM
Helen,
I looked through your links and websites. You provide some very interesting information. I may have missed something, however. What exactly became of your friend "John"? Did he suddenly move away, or is he still in the area?
What bothers me about his story is that supposedly these four known murders occurred in a relatively small space of time, then the killings suddenly stopped. That would usually indicate that the killer moved to another location, or that he was put in prison, or died. It would seem out of the "ordinary" for a serial killer to suddenly stop killing and simply sit back and talk about it in great detail.
I do not know who the 12 likely suspects are that your website refers to, but can imagine who a few might be, based on information now known about some of the serial killers caught over the past 28 years.

Helen Dagner
12-11-2004, 08:28 AM
Richard,I do know where John is today,however because something has just come up in the OCCK case in the past two weeks...maybe I should hold off on telling you.Actually there are no dozen suspects...that was an error that was made by a Detroit TV producer...then picked up by that areas...newspaper media.I agree that most killings that stop...are for the reasons you stated...How ever John...is not your run of the mill Serial Killer...and I'm not really sure he has stopped...or that he ever did stop...I'm thinking now...that he may have just....changed his MO....I guess it may sound to some that John...was just bragging to me about the murders....but that wasn't the case....first he talked to me in the third person...then he made a Freudian slip...and I persued it.Richard,when john killed the 4 children,now known as the Oakland County Child Killer victims....he had already been practicing...for a few years...when he perfected his craft...that is when he designed his MO....his motive...was not to kill the children...like in being EVIL...he told me...at the time....he felt he was saving the children-from life as he knew it....and making a statement to the world...he said he had no other way of doing it...what ever his reasoning...the children still ended up dead.

Richard
12-11-2004, 04:20 PM
What you describe about John talking in the third person is not uncommon for criminals, especially serial killers. Those who agree to "help" the police often will speak as if they knew the killer or know what he was thinking. Ted Bundy did this, speaking like a psycologist analyzing a subject, while all the time telling in an oblique way what he, himself had done.
Does John travel much in his work or leisure? I am wondering - if he is the killer of the Oakland County Children - whether or not he might be killing in other jurisdictions now, or if he traveled around in the past to other states.

Helen Dagner
12-12-2004, 09:09 AM
Yes John Traveled a lot,right after Tim's Murder he went to Fla....then moved to Atlanta GA...then he started to go to Europe...back and forth....always returning to GA....When I met him In Alpena Mi....He said he had come to be near his daughter....but a Lt.on the Alpena Police Dept....told me he thought...John had come there to hide...I have to agree with that....as who would ever think ,you could find-The Oakland County Child Killer...In little old Alpena.When he left Alpena...after the polygraphs...he went back to Ga...Gainsville...then stared his trips once again to Europe....Not much of this is work related...as John has really not worked a lot....but he has tried a few self employed businesses...he had just started a phone card business...and second passport sales....it was at that shoebox office...behind a drawer...on a ledge...that I found a 1970's Manicure set...in a fold over brochade case...it was his souvenir...he had manicured the children...after he bath and killed them.....Richard,I tried to post some documents...the other day...but they would'nt post....what did i do wrong?...or can we not do this?

Richard
12-13-2004, 01:10 AM
I am not certain what you did to try to post documents. Are these attatchments that you are trying to send, or are they documents which appear on another website? I don't know how this website is set up for photos, attatchments and such. I would like to know, as I have photos of a suspect drawing in another case.
I initially had a hard time posting links to other websites, but learned a trick to that. Instead of just hitting the "insert in mail" button, I would also line amplify the http address line and include it in an e-mail to be "sent later" I also can copy text from that other website and include it in the "send-later e-mail". When I get what I want, I simply hit Control C on the entire text of my e-mail and copy it onto one of these message forms.
Hope this helps.

Helen Dagner
12-15-2004, 01:20 PM
Richard...I tried again,but it wouldn't take....it said a plug-in was not working...then the nexts time it said...my pc was to low on system to complete??I'm hope to take care of the pc issue...and try to post the INFO-again

Ghostwheel
12-16-2004, 02:45 AM
I don't think you can post attachments, but if the document is at a URL, then you can link to it. If it is an image (as in a scanned documents), people could see it on line if their User Controls have "Show Images" checked, or could click on the URL to see the docs.

Helen Dagner
12-16-2004, 01:27 PM
Thanks...as you have noticed...LOL...I know very little about Pc's....I have a friend who is going to help me out with this...well at least that is what he said...so I hope to Post the Info...very soon....Thank you both for helping me.:slap:

Helen Dagner
12-17-2004, 12:23 AM
Something to get you up to date...until I can post the documents...http://forum.americanindiantribe.com/viewtopic.php?t=79

amandab
02-18-2005, 03:11 PM
http://www.wxyz.com/wxyz/nw_local_news/article/0,2132,WXYZ_15924_3558550,00.html

After receiving some new tips, this case is being reexamined.

bbmcrae
02-25-2005, 03:26 PM
This is gruesome, so proceed with caution.

http://www.petoskeynews.com/articles/2005/02/22/news/local_regional/news02.txt

Old murder case revived

By Steve Zucker News-Review staff writer
Tuesday, February 22, 2005 3:11 PM EST
and The Associated Press

When the Michigan State Police and a host of other police agencies announced last week that they are blowing the dust off of four 30-year-old unsolved murder files from Oakland County, one Northern Michigan resident took more than a passing interest.

Petoskey resident Deb Jarvis, who works in the News-Review's circulation department, is the mother of one of the four children who were abducted and slain in Oakland County between February 1976 and March 1977.

The bodies of two boys and two girls were found suffocated after they were missing for a period ranging from three to 19 days. Two had been raped and one was also shot in the face with a shotgun.

The victims included 11-year-old Timothy King, 12-year-old Mark Stebbins, 12-year-old Jill Robinson and Jarvis' daughter, 10-year-old Kristine Mihelich.

Richard
02-26-2005, 12:04 PM
Old murder case revived

By Steve Zucker News-Review staff writer
Tuesday, February 22, 2005 3:11 PM EST

The Associated Press

When the Michigan State Police and a host of other police agencies announced last week that they are blowing the dust off of four 30-year-old unsolved murder files from Oakland County, one Northern Michigan resident took more than a passing interest.


Petoskey resident Deb Jarvis, who works in the News-Review's circulation department, is the mother of one of the four children who were abducted and slain in Oakland County between February 1976 and March 1977...

Link:
http://www.petoskeynews.com/articles/2005/02/22/news/local_regional/news02.txt

meggilyweggily
03-05-2005, 02:27 AM
I remember reading somewhere that before Timothy King's body was found, his mom went on TV and said she would feed him a chicken dinner, his favorite food, if he was returned to her. And the Babysitter fed Timothy a chicken dinner before he died. That man must have some twisted sense of humor.

I'm inclined to believe the Babysitter is dead or otherwise physically unable to kill any more children, but the Green River Killer and BTK went dormant...

Richard
03-05-2005, 10:57 AM
...I'm inclined to believe the Babysitter is dead or otherwise physically unable to kill any more children, but the Green River Killer and BTK went dormant...
A serial killer going "dormant" for a period of time - that is going for a spell without aparently killing - seems to be a feature or trait that is common in most serial killers. There are a number of reasons for this. Often it is because the killer is incarcerated for other crimes, like burglary or theft. Sometimes he goes through a change in lifestyle, like getting married or moving to another locality and getting involved in a new job. Other times he might be under psychiatric care and medication. Or he might be under other influences and stresses which bring out his evil character.

Another factor which might make a killer appear to go dormant could be that he changes his modus operandi (MO). In the case of Michigan's "Oakland County Babysitter", he actually killed in different ways, but other factors linked his killings together. In searching for possible links to other unsolved child murders, one would have to consider those other factors, rather than the manner of death itself.

In the past, crimes in one location might suddenly stop, and because murders or disappearances were only being investigated locally, it would appear that the killer had gone "dormant" - when in actuality, he might have simply moved to another state. This was the case with Ted Bundy, moving from Washington to Utah. Meanwhile, other killings of his in Idaho and Colorado, were not immediately recognized, because they were outside of his "area".

A series of killings in one locality can often be tied together quickly, but individual killings are often unsolved because of either the killer moving often, or because of a changing MO.

meggilyweggily
03-05-2005, 06:06 PM
There has been some suggestion that the disappearance of Kimberly King is linked to the Babysitter. She was about the same age and disappeared in about the same place at about the same time as the others. (She had the same surname as his last confirmed victim, Timothy King, but I don't think they were related.)

But she was never found. If the Babysitter killed her, he would have had to change his MO -- hiding her body well instead of dumping it along the road in plain view. Of course, it's smarter to hide the body, you're less likely to be caught that way. Unless they find the Babysitter though, who knows if Kimberly's case will ever be solved.

Richard
03-07-2005, 12:19 PM
There has been some suggestion that the disappearance of Kimberly King is linked to the Babysitter. She was about the same age and disappeared in about the same place at about the same time as the others. (She had the same surname as his last confirmed victim, Timothy King, but I don't think they were related.)

But she was never found. If the Babysitter killed her, he would have had to change his MO -- hiding her body well instead of dumping it along the road in plain view. Of course, it's smarter to hide the body, you're less likely to be caught that way. Unless they find the Babysitter though, who knows if Kimberly's case will ever be solved.
Kimberly disappeared from Warren, Michigan in 1979. This was two years after the killings generally attributed to the "Babysitter". It is quite possible that he was responsible for her abduction as well, but unfortunately there is no physical evidence that connects him at this time. There is a thread for Kimberly on this board.

Link to Kimberly Alice King poster:
http://www.missingkids.com/missingkids/servlet/PubCaseSearchServlet?act=viewPoster&caseNum=601787&orgPrefix=NCMC&searchLang=en_US

mysteriew
06-17-2005, 11:57 PM
Investigators are hoping DNA evidence from another case will hold clues to the 1976 slayings of four children in Oakland County.

The investigation began when Michigan State Police detectives reopened a cold-case file on the 1972 homicides of two Bay County teenagers whose bodies were left in ditches, Local 4 reported. Officers flew to Texas Tuesday to interview a suspect in the case, Todd Warzecha and take DNA samples, according to the report.

Once in Texas, officers found the 53-year-old man hanging from the ceiling of a storage shed in an apparent suicide, Local 4 reported.

Investigators are now taking DNA samples from Warzecha's body to determine if there is a match in the Oakland County homicides.

http://www.clickondetroit.com/news/4620716/detail.html

blueclouds
08-14-2005, 07:23 PM
Interesting article!!!!!!!!
http://www.theoaklandpress.com/stories/081405/loc_200508140010.shtml

"
Gray will travel to an Indiana prison soon to interview a convicted child killer in connection with the case. He's also hoping to get a DNA sample from the man. And, acting on a tip, Gray and Berkley Police Detective Ray Anger - who took the original missing child report from the Mihelich family - searched a Macomb County home after someone called in a tip about a man who used to live there.

According to the tipster, the man, whom Gray said committed suicide - might have been connected to the case.

"We haven't found anything yet," Gray said. "It was a good tip, though."

Through the years, there has been a series of strong leads. In 1999, the body of autoworker David Norberg was exhumed from his Wyoming grave so his DNA could be compared with the hair. It wasn't a match, but Norberg remains under suspicion.

Earlier this year, investigators collected blood samples from 53-year-old Todd Warzecha, who committed suicide by hanging himself in a Texas storage shed.

Warzecha, a known child molester, was a suspect in the 1972 slayings of two teenage boys in Bay City. He was also a suspect in the Oakland County case and was interviewed by detectives. He passed a polygraph test.

Warzecha's DNA, along with DNA from a man who died in prison, is being tested. Gray said DNA from another man, who is still alive, was also sent for tests last week.

Samples from the prisoner in Indiana and another suspect will be sought and tested, he said.

"There's a lot riding on this case," he said."


......... sad to think that these children might not be the only ones this guy killed. :(

mysteriew
08-24-2005, 06:39 PM
A serial killer accused in a 1974 stabbing death in Kalamazoo and convicted in a 1979 murder in Ferndale has denied involvement in the Michigan killings in a letter to The Detroit News.

In a five-page, handwritten letter from Ionia Maximum Correctional Facility, Coral Watts maintains his innocence in the two killings. The letter, which rails against authorities, was in response to an Aug. 8 request by the newspaper for an interview
http://www.kristv.com/Global/story.asp?S=3759936

Norma
09-05-2005, 08:19 AM
Every day I drive by the area where Jill Robinson's body was found, so I often study the area. That area is busy, very well lit, full of curves so you need to pay attention to how you're driving, and at that exit, there is the Troy police station.

Putting her body here seem to me to be an 'in your face' action - Certainly a move by someone who's confident they are going to get away with it. My old car had broken down twice in this same area (except heading south), and both times I've had strangers stop to help me. I would think that any vehicle at the side of the road in this area would draw attention.

Richard
09-15-2005, 09:40 AM
Doesn't it just make you want to cry for this poor guy, when the courts and the press are so prejudiced against him? He says he didn't do it. Shouldn't that be enough to convince anybody? The injustice of it all.
-----------------------------------------------
In a five-page, handwritten letter from Ionia Maximum Correctional Facility, Coral Watts maintains his innocence in the two killings. The letter, which rails against authorities, was in response to an Aug. 8 request by the newspaper for an interview.


"If they have deceived the public into believing I did something I did not do and then went about convicting an innocent man, they should receiv(e) no less punishment then they would impose on me," Watts wrote in the letter, parts of which were published Wednesday by the newspaper.



Watts, 51, is charged with first-degree murder in the death of 19-year-old Gloria Steele. She was stabbed 33 times in the chest on Oct. 30, 1974, in the apartment she shared with her 3-year-old daughter.



An Oakland County judge sentenced Watts to life in prison in December for the 1979 murder of Helen Dutcher in the Detroit suburb of Ferndale. At his sentencing, Watts denied that he killed Dutcher.



Before that, Watts had been scheduled for release from a Texas pri6son after getting immunity for 12 killings to which he had confessed 11 in Texas and one in Michigan as part of a 1982 plea deal with Texas prosecutors.

mysteriew
10-07-2005, 10:39 PM
The Michigan State Police crime lab is reexamining nearly 30-year-old evidence -- including clothing, a bicycle and a skateboard -- in hopes that modern technology will identify the person who killed four children in the 1970s and close one of Oakland County's most notorious unsolved cases.

DNA samples from three potential suspects -- all of whom are dead -- have been sent to a crime lab for testing, Gray said. The samples will be compared with a hair found on one of the children and thought to belong to the killer. Results are expected in about six months.

Forensic specialists also are combing evidence collected by police after the bodies were found -- including the clothing the children were found in, Robinson's bicycle and King's skateboard -- in hopes of finding a clue.

The suspects are:

•David Norberg, a Warren autoworker at the time of the killings. Norberg moved to the state of Wyoming in 1980 and died a year later. His body was exhumed in 1999, and DNA was examined. It did not match the hair that was found on one of the bodies. But, Gray said, that does not rule him out as a suspect because the hair might not have belonged to the killer.

•Todd Warzecha, of Austin, Texas. Warzecha was suspected of killing two teens in 1972 -- Norbert Peck, 14, and Oscar Garcia, 18 -- in Saginaw County. He was interviewed by detectives and passed a polygraph test shortly after the killings, but is still a suspect because polygraphs are not foolproof, police said. Warzecha committed suicide in Texas.

•John McRae, who died in a Jackson prison in June. He was convicted of killing two boys in Michigan and was a suspect in the disappearance of three Florida boys. Gray did not mention anything that would specifically link McRae to this case, but said he is a suspect because of the two other killings.

•A prisoner in Indiana who was convicted of killing a child. Gray said he plans to interview the prisoner, who he would not identify, as well as test his DNA.
freep.com/news/locoak/childkiller7e_20051007.htm

Marilynilpa
10-24-2005, 09:20 AM
I read about this case for the first time this weekend. Does anyone know the outcome of the DNA testing that was conducted?

From what I read, Sheila Shrock was raped and sodomized, and a neighbor saw the whole thing. He was apparently on the roof of his house, shoveling snow, when the attack took place.

That strikes me as very odd - why didn't he yell or do something to stop the attack on Sheila? And why wasn't he able to provide a description of the man?

That just seems very strange to me.

amandab
11-30-2005, 12:37 PM
http://www.clickondetroit.com/news/5433527/detail.html

DNA tests were negative. Ugh.

Marilynilpa
11-30-2005, 02:01 PM
http://www.clickondetroit.com/news/5433527/detail.html

DNA tests were negative. Ugh.
Thanks so much for that update. I'm surprised that the DNA didn't match any of the suspects, but at least now LE knows who to rule out.

mysteriew
12-01-2005, 08:46 PM
http://www.clickondetroit.com/news/5433527/detail.html

DNA tests were negative. Ugh.

Additional info on the testing:

The results do not rule out the suspects -- two of whom are dead -- because it is unclear where the hair came from, or whether the hair police found is even from the killer, said State Police Detective Sgt. Garry Gray.
http://www.freep.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20051201/NEWS03/512010548/1005

Norma
12-11-2005, 09:05 AM
Can they even tell if the hair is male or female?

meggilyweggily
12-11-2005, 10:24 AM
Can they even tell if the hair is male or female?
If it was a long hair, that might be an indication that it's a female hair. Or maybe if there was the root there, they could get DNA out of it or something.

mysteriew
12-11-2005, 10:46 AM
If it was a long hair, that might be an indication that it's a female hair. Or maybe if there was the root there, they could get DNA out of it or something.

They got DNA, but it didn't match the suspects. But since they don't know where the hair came from, or who, or how it got there that means it doesn't rule out the suspects it just means that isn't proof against the suspects.

Richard
12-11-2005, 03:12 PM
I think that a possible answer to who this guy is might be found in old police files. Considering all the children that the killer was able to successfully abduct, I would think it possible that other attempts were made which were foiled or aborted. For instance, is there a report or reports from the Oakland County area before, during, or shortly after this string of related murders it might contain a description of the man and his methods?

hoppyfrog
12-12-2005, 12:06 AM
In August 1985, shortly after I graduated from university, I participated in a writing conference at Cranbrook, near Detroit. I was in the creative writing section of the conference, but in the evenings all the participants were together for general sessions. One of these sessions was led by a Detroit journalist (TV, I believe) who had extensively covered the OCCK while they were happening. She had a lot of interesting things to say, but the most important, IMO, was that LE believed the murders were committted by a local church pastor who had access to a cottage up north (though he didn't own it himself) and also had access to a blue sub-compact car. The car was at least tentatively linked to the murders. The cottage was important because it was thought he kept the kids there before he bought them back to the Detroit area were they were then killed. The journalist also said this pastor committed suicide 9 months after the last murder.

So there you have it, "it" being what I heard, not from LE but from a source that was very close to LE.

One more story about that: the journalist told us quite a few stories about how the media cooperated with LE to try to catch the killer. For example, LE held regular (daily?) press conferences that appeared to be "real," including pleas from victims' families, assurances that LE was doing all it could, etc. These were the press conferences that were broadcast. But then all the recording devices were turned off and LE told the journalists what was actually happening on the case. During the press conferences that appeared to be real, LE might talk, for example, and make numerous references to squirrels, e.g. "Squirrelly things are happening in this case" or "It's going to be cold out tonight and all the squirrels will be huddled in their nests," in an effort to lure the killer out to Squirrel Road.

The journalist told other stories like that (which I don't remember, so don't ask!) about the crazy extent to which LE and the media cooperated in order to solve the case. It sounded like LE was quite open with the media as long as the media didn't print certain sensitive info.

Because of what this journalist said, I wasn't surprised to find that the DNA from the hair found on the victim didn't match any of the suspects. My best guess is that the hair didn't belong to the killer. Otherwise they'd be able to match the hair to the suspect I mentioned above.

I wonder if anyone is interested in searching throught Detroit-area obituaries from the period of about 9 months after the last murder. I have no idea how to do that. Of course, there might not be an obit.

I wonder if I can dig up the journalist's name. Hmm.

You're welcome to ask me questions to jog my memory, but remember I heard all this twenty years ago!

Hoppy

Richard
12-12-2005, 10:47 AM
In August 1985, shortly after I graduated from university, I participated in a writing conference at Cranbrook, near Detroit. I was in the creative writing section of the conference, but in the evenings all the participants were together for general sessions. One of these sessions was led by a Detroit journalist (TV, I believe) who had extensively covered the OCCK while they were happening. She had a lot of interesting things to say, but the most important, IMO, was that LE believed the murders were committted by a local church pastor who had access to a cottage up north (though he didn't own it himself) and also had access to a blue sub-compact car. The car was at least tentatively linked to the murders. The cottage was important because it was thought he kept the kids there before he bought them back to the Detroit area were they were then killed. The journalist also said this pastor committed suicide 9 months after the last murder....

I wonder if anyone is interested in searching throught Detroit-area obituaries from the period of about 9 months after the last murder. I have no idea how to do that. Of course, there might not be an obit.

I wonder if I can dig up the journalist's name. Hmm.... Hoppy
This is very interesting and might be worth pursuing, even so many years later. As to finding out the Journalist's name, that might be fairly easy, if you were to contact the Cranbrook Institute and see if they have a file or program of that conference. With more information from her, such as a possible name or the pastor or his church, etc, it will make follow up searching possible.

Lacking such a program, it might be possible to check Detroit News/Free Press microfilm files for that time frame to see who covered the case. The Detroit News/Freepress has an on-line data base of obituaries, but it is a day by day thing, and I do not think that there is a master index for it. Besides, I don't think that it goes back that far.

It is more likely that a search of microfilm copies would be required. An interim step might be to get a list of possible pastors, or name of this particular pastor, then check the Social Security Death Index for more information, such as specific date. An obit or funeral notice will provide more info such as funeral home, cemetery, and possibly relatives.

If there was a place where all the children were taken before being killed, then it would be quite possible and likely that a hair on one victim may have come from another victim.

If the location of such a cottage was known, it might be possible to check the basement and grounds for other possible victims or evidence.

If a specific car was associated with the abductions and murders, then possibly there was a description of the driver somewhere as well.

hoppyfrog
12-12-2005, 02:13 PM
This is very interesting and might be worth pursuing, even so many years later. As to finding out the Journalist's name, that might be fairly easy, if you were to contact the Cranbrook Institute and see if they have a file or program of that conference. With more information from her, such as a possible name or the pastor or his church, etc, it will make follow up searching possible.

Lacking such a program, it might be possible to check Detroit News/Free Press microfilm files for that time frame to see who covered the case. The Detroit News/Freepress has an on-line data base of obituaries, but it is a day by day thing, and I do not think that there is a master index for it. Besides, I don't think that it goes back that far.

It is more likely that a search of microfilm copies would be required. An interim step might be to get a list of possible pastors, or name of this particular pastor, then check the Social Security Death Index for more information, such as specific date. An obit or funeral notice will provide more info such as funeral home, cemetery, and possibly relatives.

If there was a place where all the children were taken before being killed, then it would be quite possible and likely that a hair on one victim may have come from another victim.

If the location of such a cottage was known, it might be possible to check the basement and grounds for other possible victims or evidence.

If a specific car was associated with the abductions and murders, then possibly there was a description of the driver somewhere as well.
I'm going to start by looking through my files to see if I have the name of the journalist or a contact person for the conference. I doubt the Detroit newspapers would mention a TV journalist who was also covering the case, don't you think?

My best guess is that LE would have thoroughly searched the cottage and car the pastor had access to, but didn't find any evidence.

Suicide would certainly explain why this particular MO and serial killing stopped. After I posted last night I also recalled that the journalist said that as of 1985, this particular MO had not been duplicated/continued anywhere else in the world.

She also said that as of 1985 the Michigan State Police still had one officer assigned full-time to the case.

I'll try to get to my files soon to find that journalist's name, but with the holidays and all....argh!

Hoppy

shadowangel
12-12-2005, 02:18 PM
My best guess is that LE would have thoroughly searched the cottage and car the pastor had access to, but didn't find any evidence.

Hoppy
Never assume that---Without probable cause for a warrant they would have searched nothing! Strong anecdotal evidence will rarely sway any judge, especially in a homicide case.

Richard
12-12-2005, 02:21 PM
I'm going to start by looking through my files to see if I have the name of the journalist or a contact person for the conference. I doubt the Detroit newspapers would mention a TV journalist who was also covering the case, don't you think?...
...I'll try to get to my files soon to find that journalist's name, but with the holidays and all....argh! Hoppy
Usually Newspapers would not mention names of TV reporters or their stories, but often TV channels will advertise their programs, including news, in newspapers. Now that you have thought about this person, the answer will probably come to you in the next few days at a time when you least expect it. It happens like that to me sometimes.

shadowangel
12-12-2005, 02:33 PM
Usually Newspapers would not mention names of TV reporters or their stories, but often TV channels will advertise their programs, including news, in newspapers. Now that you have thought about this person, the answer will probably come to you in the next few days at a time when you least expect it. It happens like that to me sometimes.
Right, like you don't have instant recall of all things. We believe that, Richard. ;)

hoppyfrog
12-12-2005, 05:52 PM
Never assume that---Without probable cause for a warrant they would have searched nothing! Strong anecdotal evidence will rarely sway any judge, especially in a homicide case.
Agreed. I was assuming that if they had a warrant they would have searched it. Getting a warrant is a whole other matter.

Hoppy

hoppyfrog
12-12-2005, 09:46 PM
I located the journalist's name in my files.:) I'm not going to publicly post her name here, but I will attempt to locate her. If any of you are interested in helping me locate her, pm me. Here goes...

Okay, I located her!:woohoo:

Fortunately she hasn't left her profession or state, so that made it a lot simpler. So don't pm me. :)

I will email her, see what happens, and let you know.

Hoppy

PonderingThings
02-28-2006, 12:06 PM
Hoppy did you ever get a response or more info?

amandab
03-08-2006, 12:21 PM
http://www.clickondetroit.com/news/7810566/detail.html

New information coming from a very creepy man........

hoppyfrog
03-08-2006, 01:35 PM
Hoppy did you ever get a response or more info?
I haven't yet pursued it. Life is busy.

Hoppy

hoppyfrog
03-08-2006, 01:37 PM
http://www.clickondetroit.com/news/7810566/detail.html

New information coming from a very creepy man........
If you see any follow up to this, please post it.

Hoppy

amandab
03-08-2006, 01:42 PM
If you see any follow up to this, please post it.

Hoppy

Will do, Hoppy. This hits extremely close to home for me, location-wise.

Richard
03-13-2006, 02:50 PM
The Oakland County (Michigan) "Babysitter" murders began 30 years ago. There have been a number of leads, suspects, and theories in the past. This is the latest one. Investigators have DNA and other evidence in several of the cases. It will be interesting to see if anything matches with what this guy says, or if he is just playing games and pretending to know something.

-------------------------------------------------
Convict Provides New Leads In 1970s Child Slayings
March 8, 2006
OAK PARK, Mich. -- Investigators are hoping information from a man convicted this week in a suburban Detroit murder case will lead them to the killer of four Oakland County children in the 1970s.

Richard Lawson, 60, who was found guilty Tuesday of a 1989 murder in Livonia, recently has given police information in the "Oakland County Child Killer" cases, State Police Detective Sgt. Garry Gray, who is leading the investigation, said Wednesday.

Gray called Lawson a "person of interest" whose information has led investigators to Detroit's Cass Avenue corridor, which he described as a skid row with rampant prostitution and pornography at the time of the killings.

"We have some good, solid leads, good solid information. Lawson's a part of that process," said Gray, who would not provide more details.

Gray said Lawson has talked at length with investigators about the killings.

He said no break in the case is imminent. "We've got our hopes up. We've got things that I, of course, can't discuss," Gray said.

Lawson was found guilty of first-degree murder and armed robbery in Wayne County Circuit Court in the death of Livonia businessman Exavor Giller, a cab company owner who was shot and killed outside his home. He will be sentenced March 21.

A message seeking comment from Lawson was left Wednesday with his social worker at the Wayne County Jail.

Former Detroit Police Chief Isaiah McKinnon said Lawson was a paid informant for police in the 1970s and gave officers information about child molesters.

The child deaths horrified the Detroit area starting in 1976, with parents keeping their children in sight at all times. All the children were abducted from business areas in suburban Oakland County.

Eleven-year-old Timothy King, 12-year-old Mark Stebbins, 12-year-old Jill Robinson and 10-year-old Kristine Mihelich were suffocated between February 1976 and March 1977. Their bodies were found after each went missing for periods ranging from three to 19 days. Two had been raped, and one also was shot in the face with a shotgun.

Through the years, a series of strong leads has developed, but so far none has resulted in an arrest....

Check link for photo of Lawson and links to previous stories.
Link:
http://www.clickondetroit.com/news/7854072/detail.html

PonderingThings
04-05-2006, 02:50 PM
http://www.freep.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=2006604050423




The black trunk that Chip St. Clair found in his father's apartment years ago is filled with secrets.

In it are locks of brown hair and baby teeth, a birth certificate for St. Clair that appears to have been altered, newspaper clippings of Michigan's most-wanted criminals and photos of children that are supposed to be of St. Clair, but don't look like him.

The contents could be clues in one of Oakland County's most notorious unsolved cases -- or no more than family mementos.

Police will travel to an Indiana prison today to question St. Clair's father, Michael Grant, in connection with the deaths of four children -- ages 10, 11 and 12 -- three decades ago. They also plan to ask for a sample of Grant's DNA, to see whether it matches a hair found on one of the victims.

It is another twist in the decades-long mystery of the Oakland County child killings and in the harrowing relationship St. Clair has had with his father, much of which has been told in the Free Press and on television news programs.


Excellent article - lots more details at link.

shipmatekate
04-06-2006, 01:48 PM
Hi Folks

I am new here, but wanted to post this!

http://www.theoaklandpress.com/stories/040506/loc_2006040504.shtml



Detectives set to question man in child killer case

Web-posted Apr 5, 2006


By KORIE WILKINS
Of The Oakland Press


OAK PARK - Michigan State Police detectives will travel to Indiana this week to interview a man in connection with the Oakland County Child Killer case.


Advertisement

http://204.176.34.102/phpadsnew/adview.php?what=zone:12&n=a9aea9cd (http://204.176.34.102/phpadsnew/adclick.php?n=a9aea9cd)A tip from an Oakland County man about his father, who is incarcerated for killing another child, led to the interview, planned for today, Detective Sgt. Garry Gray said.

Chip St. Clair said he's had suspicions that his father could be the Oakland County Child Killer for a few years. After talking about his life story at an event in Lansing a few years ago, a man who used to work for the probation department in Macomb County approached St. Clair about his father, Michael David Grant. The man said it sounded like someone who could be a serial killer.

St. Clair contacted the Michigan State Police with his suspicions several months ago.

"My entire life has been turned upside down," St. Clair said. "I don't know what to expect. I don't know who my father is anymore or what he's capable of."

St. Clair, who was mentally and physically abused by his father for years, now heads the Michigan chapter of Justice for Children, a Texasbased nonprofi t organization that has advocated for abused children for about 20 years.

After a fi ght with his father 1998, St. Clair learned his father was actually a convicted felon who walked away from a prison work camp in Indiana in 1973 and into the car of Leslie Weaver, St. Clair's biological mother. After Grant's arrest in Auburn Hills in 1998, he was sent back to prison but is expected to be released in 2007.

Grant was sentenced to 2-21 years for the stomping death of Scott Ingersoll, the 3-yearold son of his girlfriend, Vicki Ingersoll, in 1970. He never faced charges for his escape.

Gray said investigators will try to obtain a DNA sample from Grant that will be compared to a sample police have that could belong to the killer.

Grant could not be reached for comment. Weaver has remarried and also could not be reached for comment.

"We want to talk to him and find out about the who, what, where, when and why," Gray said. "I don't foresee any great revelations. But can I rule him out? No."


Web-posted Apr 5, 2006


Has this guy come up on the radar before??

Many thanks!

amandab
05-12-2006, 06:32 AM
http://www.clickondetroit.com/news/9202297/detail.html

No shortage of creepy folks with this case...

christine2448
05-12-2006, 01:50 PM
http://www.clickondetroit.com/news/9202297/detail.html

No shortage of creepy folks with this case...Flippin unbelievable.....you never know what is going on in your neighbors house!
Quote from Article

"Inside the home, police found letters written to serial killers, child pornography, 8 mm film dating back to the 1970s, computer files and a sex slave dungeon equipped with shackles and a jail-like door that locked from the outside, Local 4 reported."


I wonder what they will find when all this stuff is tested???? I imagine they would do that right?

mysteriew
05-12-2006, 09:39 PM
As local TV news reported a break in the 30-year-old Oakland County child killer case Thursday night, few officials deeply involved in the case had their hopes up.

The latest potential clue, as reported Thursday by WDIV-TV (Channel 4), centers on Randall Raar, a 58-year-old Lincoln Park man arrested Wednesday on sex-crime charges. Raar, an ex-convict, was found guilty in 1984 of third-degree criminal sexual conduct, according to the Michigan Department of Corrections.

http://www.freep.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20060512/NEWS03/605120483

Richard
05-13-2006, 08:34 AM
Child killer link doubted

.... The latest potential clue, as reported Thursday by WDIV-TV (Channel 4), centers on Randall Raar, a 58-year-old Lincoln Park man arrested Wednesday on sex-crime charges. Raar, an ex-convict, was found guilty in 1984 of third-degree criminal sexual conduct, according to the Michigan Department of Corrections.

An official close to the case who requested anonymity told the Free Press that Raar confessed to the child killings after he was arrested and is being questioned further about the deaths of the four children in the 1970s. But Rarr is one of many who have claimed some link to or knowledge of the killings.

WDIV reported that Michigan State Police discovered a sex-slave dungeon and child porn in Raar's basement.

"I just refuse to get excited," said Oakland County Executive L. Brooks Patterson, who was the county's prosecutor when four children were kidnapped and killed in 1976 and 1977. "I think after 30 years, law enforcement and the community both are desperate for a positive development and are eager to grasp at any potential clue that might unravel this crime."

But Thursday, investigators contacted by the Free Press, including some who have followed developments in the case for years, didn't know of any link to the 30-year-old slayings.

Deb Carley, Oakland County's chief deputy prosecutor, said she'd never heard of Raar. She referred questions to State Police Sgt. Garry Gray, who's been investigating the case. He declined to comment and referred questions to Detective Sgt. Ken Walker, who did not return phone calls Thursday.

Officials with the Wayne County Prosecutor's Office also said they hadn't been notified of Raar's possible link to the case.

"It's another lead that has to be followed," Patterson said, "but I've been down that blind alley so many times."

Gray announced in April that he planned to interview a prisoner in Westville, Ind., about the inmate's possible knowledge of the killings. But Gray told the Free Press he postponed the interview because media interest had created "kind of a circus."

The killings claimed the lives of Timothy King, 11, of Birmingham; Kristine Mihelich, 10, of Berkley; Jill Robinson, 12, of Royal Oak, and Mark Stebbins, 12, of Ferndale. Two of the children were sexually assaulted.

At the time, all four killings were believed to have been committed by one man, dubbed the Oakland County child killer. But investigators have recently said they think there may have been more than one killer. ...

amandab
05-13-2006, 11:45 AM
http://www.clickondetroit.com/news/9208852/detail.html

A little more info about this Raar guy....

mysteriew
05-13-2006, 01:33 PM
You know, it seems kind of odd to me. The case sits apparently dormant for thirty years, then suddenly suspects are popping out all over the place.

crimson3
10-15-2006, 01:08 AM
Just wondering if there have been any new developments in this case?

palmerk
12-11-2006, 01:41 PM
http://www.freep.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20061211/NEWS99/61211012

Basically one of 2 men indited for running a child sex ring is being identified as a suspect.

Taximom
12-11-2006, 03:28 PM
AP article about this guy:
http://www.daytondailynews.com/n/content/gen/ap/MI_Old_Sexual_Assaults.html

christine2448
12-11-2006, 04:32 PM
This was part of an email correspondence I rec'd from James Renner today, Author of the book on Amy Mihaljevic:


By the way, a suspect in the Oakland County child
murders from the 70's was arrested out here last week. I tried to find him while
researching the book on Amy, because of the weird similarities between the
Oakland County crimes and Amy's case. There's more info on my blog about all
this at www.amymihaljevic.blogspot.com (http://www.amymihaljevic.blogspot.com/)
-James

Taximom
12-11-2006, 04:41 PM
This was part of an email correspondence I rec'd from James Renner today, Author of the book on Amy Mihaljevic:


By the way, a suspect in the Oakland County child
murders from the 70's was arrested out here last week. I tried to find him while
researching the book on Amy, because of the weird similarities between the
Oakland County crimes and Amy's case. There's more info on my blog about all
this at www.amymihaljevic.blogspot.com (http://www.amymihaljevic.blogspot.com/)
-JamesWow, that's weird. I thought about Amy when I posted the link above. I figured police had already looked at this guy for several cases in N. Ohio's past. I hope so anyway!

palmerk
12-13-2006, 10:41 AM
http://www.clickondetroit.com/news/10519865/detail.html

mysteriew
12-14-2006, 09:34 AM
After reading this, I'm not real optimistic

http://www.freep.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20061213/NEWS03/612130315/1005/NEWS

Richard
02-10-2007, 11:55 PM
Recent leads would seem to be a flash in the pan. Anything new being reported on these cases?

palmerk
03-29-2007, 10:36 AM
http://www.wxyz.com/news/local/story.aspx?content_id=f90a3148-6851-4a41-a55b-4c15612ceba5

"WXYZ has learned Theodore Lamborgine, who pleaded guilty to 15 sex-related counts involving young boys, is the number one suspect in the Oakland County child killer case.
Investigators revealed this to WXYZ's Heather Catallo after Theodore Lamborgine pleaded guilty instead of accepting a deal that would have required him to take a polygraph on the Oakland County child killer case.

Lamborgine, 66, of Parma Heights, Ohio, was first offered 25 to 50 years in prison if he pleaded guilty to two counts of criminal sexual conduct.

He refused and Wayne County prosecutors made him a second offer to reduce his sentence by 10 more years if he would submit to a polygraph test on the 1976 murders of four children in Oakland County. " (More at link)

christine2448
03-29-2007, 10:46 AM
http://www.wxyz.com/news/local/story.aspx?content_id=f90a3148-6851-4a41-a55b-4c15612ceba5

"WXYZ has learned Theodore Lamborgine, who pleaded guilty to 15 sex-related counts involving young boys, is the number one suspect in the Oakland County child killer case.
Investigators revealed this to WXYZ's Heather Catallo after Theodore Lamborgine pleaded guilty instead of accepting a deal that would have required him to take a polygraph on the Oakland County child killer case.

Lamborgine, 66, of Parma Heights, Ohio, was first offered 25 to 50 years in prison if he pleaded guilty to two counts of criminal sexual conduct.

He refused and Wayne County prosecutors made him a second offer to reduce his sentence by 10 more years if he would submit to a polygraph test on the 1976 murders of four children in Oakland County. " (More at link) Hmmm, very interesting. Thanks for the update palmerk.

docwho3
03-29-2007, 01:58 PM
. . .Lamborgine may also be a "person of interest" in the unsolved abduction/murder of 10-year-old Amy Mihaljevic, in Bay Village, Ohio, in 1989. Like the children from Oakland County, Amy was abducted in a business district, and seemed to go willingly with her kidnapper. Also like the children from Oakland County, Amy's body was discovered in a field just a few feet from a country road, as if it was put there to be found easily.
On March 27, 2007, investigators told television station WXYZ that Lamborghine was considered the top suspect in this case. Lamborghine pleaded guilty to 15 sex-related counts involving young boys rather than accept a plea bargain that would have required him to take a polygraph test on the Oakland County child killings. Lamborghine also rejected an offer of a reduced sentence in exchange for a polygraph on the case. . . .

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oakland_County_Child_Killer

Rhett
03-29-2007, 02:30 PM
What about the Raar guy? Didn't the news reports say that he impersonated a modeling agent? Could this be our tape recorder man from the Lyon girls case. I know it is a different state but stranger things have happened.

hoppyfrog
03-29-2007, 10:48 PM
Here's the link to a story from yesterday's Detroit Free Press:

http://www.freep.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20070328/NEWS03/70328021/1009/NEWS07

And here's a quote from the article:

Parma Heights Police Detective Steve Scharschmidt said Lawson said he felt Lamborgine "could be involved."

Sources said Lamborgine has since failed a polygraph test and DNA results are pending.

In the Oakland County child killer case, investigators have a piece of evidence - a single hair taken from one of the victims - that they believe belongs to the killer. Over the years, authorities have tested the hair sample against the DNA of several suspects but to no avail.

muse217
03-30-2007, 11:47 AM
What ever became of Helen Dagner?

christine2448
03-30-2007, 12:36 PM
What ever became of Helen Dagner?

? Here is a link to Helen's case page

http://www.geocities.com/jtoddmatthews/Oakland_murders.html?This

muse217
03-30-2007, 02:44 PM
Thanks for the link, Christine. The last update on her site is May 10, 2003. I'm curious.

christine2448
03-30-2007, 02:50 PM
Thanks for the link, Christine. The last update on her site is May 10, 2003. I'm curious.

I printed this thread, and read it on my break, I had followed it awhile back, but wanted to refresh my memory. I'm curious too.

christine2448
03-30-2007, 02:52 PM
? Here is a link to Helen's case page

http://www.geocities.com/jtoddmatthews/Oakland_murders.html?This

Forgive me this is not Helen's page, it is someone who she sent all the info to:
Todd Matthews (JTMatthews@TwLakes.Net)
ColdCases Moderator/ (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/coldcases/)
Media Director for
Doenetwork (http://www.doenetwork.org/) &
Outpost For Hope (http://www.outpostforhope.org/)

christine2448
03-30-2007, 02:54 PM
Check this out....

http://b4.boards2go.com/boards/board.cgi?&user=Serialkillerfacts04

Updated yesterday :)

OH here is the main page (ETA)
http://helendagner.com/

muse217
03-30-2007, 03:29 PM
I admire Ms. Dagner's fortitude; I just wonder why her information and evidence have been pushed aside. Perhaps someone in LE was involved, or had a brother who was involved, etc. I do find it kind of creepy that she spent so much time with a man she believes to be a serial killer. Why didn't Ms. Dagner become a member of LE 30 years ago? She would have made a wonderful detective.

PS Thanks, Christine, for the updated link!

Taximom
04-21-2007, 01:11 PM
Here's the link to a story from yesterday's Detroit Free Press:

http://www.freep.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20070328/NEWS03/70328021/1009/NEWS07

And here's a quote from the article:

Parma Heights Police Detective Steve Scharschmidt said Lawson said he felt Lamborgine "could be involved."

Sources said Lamborgine has since failed a polygraph test and DNA results are pending.

In the Oakland County child killer case, investigators have a piece of evidence - a single hair taken from one of the victims - that they believe belongs to the killer. Over the years, authorities have tested the hair sample against the DNA of several suspects but to no avail.

Life in prison for Lamborgine:

http://www.woio.com/Global/story.asp?S=6405176

Richard
04-22-2007, 09:59 AM
Parma, OH - The Ohio man pleaded guilty to raping three underage boys in Michigan. Ted Lamborgine was sentenced to three life sentences for the 15 sex-related charges.

The 66-year-old says he never forced himself on the boys - but he did pay them for the sex acts. Some of the victims were as young as 11.

------------------------------

No mention, however, of evidence connecting Lamborgine to the Babysitter killings.

Rle7
08-23-2007, 06:07 PM
Advances in DNA technology are opening up new leads in the more than three-decade-old Oakland County child killer case.

Michigan State Police Detective Sgt. Garry Gray says investigators have found new evidence from clothing belonging to one or more of the four children slain over a 13-month period beginning in 1976.

Gray would not give more details about the new evidence, but says it is in addition to a hair sample taken off one of the victims.

The new sample will be compared to DNA of 12 primary suspects.

"Some (of the suspects) are dead. Some are free and some are in the slammer," Gray said. "Some aren't even remotely suspects now, but we'll check anyway. It's not that they are cleared. It means what we used before just didn't match."

One suspect who has not been cleared is Ted Lamborgine of Parma Heights, Ohio.

http://www.woodtv.com/global/story.asp?s=6974240

Angie4b1g
08-23-2007, 08:20 PM
I was born in 1970 and grew up in Royal Oak, so needless to say, I remember this WELL. We weren't even allowed outside for fear we'd be grabbed. It really had an impact on me.

palmerk
10-18-2007, 03:09 PM
http://www.clickondetroit.com/news/14369255/detail.html

hoppyfrog
10-18-2007, 10:29 PM
From http://www.clickondetroit.com/news/14369255/detail.html

For the first time in a 30-year investigation, a civil lawsuit has been filed by the family of a child who died at the hands of who police call the Oakland County Child Killer.


The wrongful death lawsuit names Ted Lamborgine, 65, as one of the group who collectively raped and murdered several children in the '70s and '80s.

The family of Mark Stebbins, one of the children slain, filed the lawsuit against Lamborgine.


"The police have the burden of proof beyond a reasonable doubt. In a civil lawsuit, we don't have that same burden. Ours is more likely than not," said David Brinkley. "Under the circumstances, we believe we can utilize techniques a civil lawsuit permits and we believe we could perhaps push the investigation a little further."

The new suit will give attorneys new subpoena powers against Lamborgine and others that may have information about the case.


The Stebbins family is not seeking monetary damages. They said they are only filing the lawsuit to help in the investigation to get everyone responsible in jail.

more at link

Tricia
02-16-2009, 05:11 PM
Today On "E" (of all places) it had a great updated story about this case.

Seems like there might be a suspect. Child porn maker from the 70's. Ted Lamborgine.

Read the whole Wikipedia article (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oakland_County_Child_Killer)for info on the possible perp.

I was very surprised at the quality of the two hour "Serial Killer" special on "E."

It was really good.

Richard
08-01-2009, 06:26 PM
It has been a while since anyone has posted to this once active thread. Any news regarding the DNA testing - or any new articles on this subject?

KarlK
08-13-2009, 07:28 PM
It has been a while since anyone has posted to this once active thread. Any news regarding the DNA testing - or any new articles on this subject?

http://pysih.com/2007/06/01/ted-lamborgine/

The article linked above appears to sort of imply that Lamborgine confessed to being OCCK and was sentenced to three life terms as a result but no other sources confirm this. The author may have misinterpreted reports of Lamborgine's conviction on unrelated charges. I don't know where the author got the idea that Lamborgine had been sentenced to three life terms.

Below is Wiki's article on the case. It appears that apart from Lamborgine's criminal profile, the most damning evidence against him is his refusal to take a polygraph test regarding the OCCK killings. Unfortunately the refusal is of little value in court since most judges will dismiss any evidence even remotely related to polygraph testing.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oakland_County_Child_Killer

Lyn1001
08-14-2009, 11:54 AM
http://pysih.com/2007/06/01/ted-lamborgine/

The article linked above appears to sort of imply that Lamborgine confessed to being OCCK and was sentenced to three life terms as a result but no other sources confirm this. The author may have misinterpreted reports of Lamborgine's conviction on unrelated charges. I don't know where the author got the idea that Lamborgine had been sentenced to three life terms.

Below is Wiki's article on the case. It appears that apart from Lamborgine's criminal profile, the most damning evidence against him is his refusal to take a polygraph test regarding the OCCK killings. Unfortunately the refusal is of little value in court since most judges will dismiss any evidence even remotely related to polygraph testing.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oakland_County_Child_Killer

According to OTIS (Offender Tracking Information System), he is serving 3 life terms for 1st Degree CSC, along with 11 other sentences for 2nd and 3rd Degree CSC.

Fukiyama
08-14-2009, 11:27 PM
Did anything come of the reporter and her story about the pastor who committed suicide?

thefragile7393
08-15-2009, 05:43 PM
I'd like to know what became of the possibility of Chip St. Clair's father

KarlK
08-16-2009, 08:56 PM
According to OTIS (Offender Tracking Information System), he is serving 3 life terms for 1st Degree CSC, along with 11 other sentences for 2nd and 3rd Degree CSC.

Ah, thanks for the precision.

Richard
11-08-2009, 11:31 AM
Sex offender gets 3 life terms
April 26, 2007
Molly Tippen
Staff Writer

Dashing the hopes of investigators who thought they might finally be able to solve the Oakland County Child Killer case, Ted Lamborgine turned down a deal that would have put him in jail for 15 years, and instead was sentenced to three life terms for molesting several children more than 30 years ago.

At least one of the victims Lamborgine was convicted of molesting in the 1970s is from Romulus.

Lamborgine, 66 and of Parma, Ohio, rejected a deal offered by Wayne County Prosecutors and refused to talk about the murders of four Oakland County children in the mid-1970s. He accepted responsibility for about 15 counts of first and second degree criminal sexual conduct, said Assistant Wayne County Prosecutor Robert Moran.

“This was a first in my career,” he said. “The law enforcement task of finding all of these victims was formidable, especially after all of these years.

”Lamborgine and a co-defendant, Richard Lawson, were implicated in an investigation into a child sex ring that operated in the Cass Corridor in Detroit in the 1970s. During the investigation, it was revealed that children were taken to a motel on Eureka Road in Romulus, where they were molested.

During sentencing, Lamborgine said the boys were paid for sex acts. Moran said the fact that Lamborgine tried to skirt responsibility for the molestation is infuriating.

“He said that it was paid for, and he tried to justify his behavior on that basis,” said Moran.

“But we’re talking about kids as young as 9 years old, and they can never legally consent to sex.”Moran said that a victim from Romulus was located during the investigation, but that he did not testify during court proceedings.

Richard Lawson, who along with Lamborgine also faced more than 15 counts of criminal sexual conduct, also appeared at Circuit Court for a hearing last week.Moran said Lawson is also facing charges that stem from Romulus.

Lawson is already convicted of killing his former employer in 1989 and is serving a life sentence for that crime.Technically, Lamborgine can be paroled after serving 15 years in prison, but Moran said the likelihood of his release is remote.http://www.journalgroup.com/Romulus/4121


LINK to Journal Newspapers Online: Sex offender gets 3 life terms:

http://www.journalgroup.com/Romulus/4121/sex-offender-gets-3-life-terms

Angie4b1g
11-09-2009, 05:01 PM
The only question I have, is that if this is the guy, why did he stop killing? They don't usually get LESS violent as the years go by. This guy just moved to Ohio and then became an honest citizen? Does he have any kind of legal troubles in Ohio at all after the date of the last Michigan killing?

I'm not saying he didn't do it, because it certainly appears likely he did. It just seems odd.

ChaCha
05-04-2010, 11:05 AM
I'd like to know what became of the possibility of Chip St. Clair's father

I believe the DNA didn't match. Here is a recent post of mine which has several news media links to it on the subject of Chip St Clair's father Michael D. Grant. http://timesupblog.blogspot.com/2010/05/chip-stclair-hero-to-all-children-of.html

ChaCha
05-05-2010, 11:10 AM
I believe the DNA didn't match. Here is a recent post of mine which has several news media links to it on the subject of Chip St Clair's father Michael D. Grant. http://timesupblog.blogspot.com/2010/05/chip-stclair-hero-to-all-children-of.html
Susan Murphy-Milano hosts BlogTalkRadio Show "Predators Behind Bars" with Special Guest Chip St Clair at 3PM Weds May 5, 2010 http://www.blogtalkradio.com/susanmurphymilano/2010/05/05/predators-behind-bars
Call-in Number: (347) 326-9337

jashrema
08-07-2010, 01:53 AM
This sounds very likely...

CWW says on:
26 October 2009 at 8:16 pmOctober 26. 2009 1:22PM .Oakland County Child Killings

Finding Timmy’s killer: Family seeks answers 32 years after son’s death
King family believes they know who killed 11-year-old in 1977, but police are slow to act
Marney Rich Keenan / The Detroit News

For 32 years, Timmy King’s family has been waiting for the truth. Who abducted, molested and murdered their 11-year-old son and three other children during a 13-month reign of terror that besieged Oakland County between February 1976 and March 1977?

Timmy King was the last victim of the infamous Oakland County Child Killer. He was abducted and held for six days before his body was found on the side of a road, his orange skateboard tossed nearby like an afterthought.

No one has ever been charged with the killings, although numerous suspects have been investigated.

Now the King family believes they know who the killer is: A suspected Bloomfield Township pedophile who police had questioned three weeks before their boy’s murder. But they are frustrated that the task force empowered to probe the cold case is sitting on what they say is information that could close the case once and for all.


http://garysaid.com/oakland-county-child-killings/

Then Timmy's dad filed a lawsuit a few months ago..

http://www.clickondetroit.com/news/23251621/detail.html

Busch looks pretty good for it if you ask me..particularly since the killing stopped completely..

Stephani
08-10-2010, 04:32 PM
I agree about Busch...wish there was some way to know for sure.

Marilynilpa
08-10-2010, 04:49 PM
Busch might be the one, but I have a big question. Is there any evidence of Busch molesting, or possessing pornography depicting, young girls?

Wikipedia has the following info about the killer:

"Investigators put together a profile (http://www.websleuths.com/wiki/Offender_profiling) of the killer based on witnesses' descriptions of the man seen talking to Timothy King the night he disappeared—a white male with a dark complexion, 25 to 35 years old with shaggy hair and sideburns. Authorities believed that the killer had a job that gave him freedom of movement and may have appeared to be someone that a child might trust, such as a police officer, clergyman or a doctor. He was also believed to be familiar with the area and had the ability to keep children for long periods of time without rousing neighbors' suspicions."

Does anyone have a description of Chris Busch? Does it match, or come close?

Filly
12-28-2010, 02:27 AM
Investigative records were unsealed and Timothy King's father now knows what he believed all along is true.



http://www.detnews.com/article/20101228/METRO02/12280367/1411/METRO02/Pedophile-allegedly-linked-to-%E2%80%9977-slaying

How horribly sad.

I'm sorry it says the King family are being charged $11,000 for the documents. When asked what he thought of that Mr. King replied "It was Tim's college money".

Filly
12-28-2010, 04:49 AM
Busch might be the one, but I have a big question. Is there any evidence of Busch molesting, or possessing pornography depicting, young girls?

Wikipedia has the following info about the killer:

"Investigators put together a profile (http://www.websleuths.com/wiki/Offender_profiling) of the killer based on witnesses' descriptions of the man seen talking to Timothy King the night he disappeared—a white male with a dark complexion, 25 to 35 years old with shaggy hair and sideburns. Authorities believed that the killer had a job that gave him freedom of movement and may have appeared to be someone that a child might trust, such as a police officer, clergyman or a doctor. He was also believed to be familiar with the area and had the ability to keep children for long periods of time without rousing neighbors' suspicions."

Does anyone have a description of Chris Busch? Does it match, or come close?

I'm not sure if this link will work but there is a photograph of Busch on SKC

http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://wxyz.img.entriq.net/img/dp_thumbs/thumb_1260207341303_0p9655471610974766.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.skcentral.com/forum/viewthread.php%3Fthread_id%3D4433%26pid%3D86157&usg=__o5er9qWuMucZt1NFnJin0NOrBRg=&h=240&w=320&sz=28&hl=en&start=0&zoom=1&tbnid=gFRDhZIbBYVVTM:&tbnh=122&tbnw=156&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dchristopher%2Bbusch%2Bpedophile%26um% 3D1%26hl%3Den%26biw%3D776%26bih%3D379%26tbs%3Disch :1&um=1&itbs=1&iact=hc&vpx=293&vpy=70&dur=7812&hovh=192&hovw=256&tx=136&ty=212&ei=nKIZTbG-KcGclgfCtYyrDA&oei=nKIZTbG-KcGclgfCtYyrDA&esq=1&page=1&ndsp=8&ved=1t:429,r:1,s:0


Meanwhile I just spent probably two hours reading about this and it seems it all boils down to Cass Corridor. That pedophile ring. There's grown men and women that as teens hung out there. Supposedly there were so many "people" involved with hurting kids it reads like a horror story. Busch was known to a number of those men.

Speculation but they say there was even a preacher at Cass United they think could have been involved. Extremely frightening stuff from an age of innocence.

The poor King family.

Filly
12-28-2010, 04:55 AM
Here's a link to a Topix where someone is writing in actually asking if anyone knew these people and were they victims?



http://www.topix.com/forum/detroit/T9N7R12J3V18NF6HH

Things like this on a Detroit message board.


http://atdetroit.net/forum/messages/148145/175631.html

rpipergirl
12-28-2010, 04:52 PM
I am so excited to learn who likely took those innocent lives. I have just written a blog about the case with pictures of all the victims and Busch's mugshot. http://genkidjericho.blogspot.com/2010/12/late-1970s-so-called-babysitter-killer.html

Richard
12-29-2010, 12:51 AM
Here is a re-cap of the known and suspected victims of this Oakland County serial killer of children.

Note that besides the four children mentioned in recent discussions are four others who are also thought to have been victims of this killer. How do these other four murder victims fit with the recently identified suspect? Are there other possible victims?

----------------------------------------------
Authorities are certain of a connection in the deaths of four victims, the first being Mark Stebbins, 12, who was abducted in Ferndale while walking to his home on February 13, 1976. His body was found in a parking lot six days afterwards, his corpse meticulously cleaned. Stebbins had been sexually assaulted and smothered to death.

On December 12, twelve-year-old Jill Robinson was abducted in Royal Oak and her body found in Troy. Though no sexual assault was evident and the girl had been killed by a shotgun blast, she had also been scrubbed clean before her disposal.

The next certain victim was Kristine Mihelich, 10, who vanished in Berkley on January 2, 1977, and her corpse located nineteen days later in Franklin Village. Like the others, her body had been cleaned after her killer suffocated her death.

The last of the series seems to be Timothy King, 11, who went missing on March 11 in Birmingham and found dead in a ditch near Livonia with his body scoured clean, his nails manicured, and his clothes freshly washed and ironed. King was also sexually assaulted before his sad death.

By this point the press had picked up on the odd signature of the killings, dubbing the unknown perpetrator "The Babysitter" due to his apparent post-mortem care of the victims.

-------------------------------------------------
Other killings that occurred in the area at the same time have been tentatively linked to the series.

Cynthia Cadieux, 16, was abducted and bludgeoned to death on January 15, 1976. Missing from Roseville she was discovered nude in Bloomfield Township the next day.

Just five days after Cadieux's disappearance Sheila Shrock was raped and shot dead at her home in Birmingham.

Jane Allen, 13, was murdered by carbon monoxide poisoning after accepting a ride in Royal Oak and was found in Miamisburg, Ohio, on August 11, 1976.

The 1972 slaying of teenager Donna Serra in Ray Township has also been mentioned as possibly being connected to the string of murders.

docwho3
12-30-2010, 02:18 PM
I just did a couple simple web searches to see if anything different turned up
since it has probably been long enough that something new might have surfaced on the web.
I doubt I found anything you all have not already seen but here are a few links.
As always, please check all stories for accuracy:

http://www.clevescene.com/cleveland/the-babysitter-killer/Content?oid=1498422

http://www.care2.com/c2c/groups/disc.html?gpp=5154&pst=881245

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oakland_County_Child_Killer

http://www.clickondetroit.com/news/5433527/detail.html

http://www.theoaklandpress.com/articles/2010/02/21/news/local_news/doc4b80a35d9c8d8139257227.txt?viewmode=default

http://www.dailytribune.com/articles/2009/11/25/opinion/srv0000006915553.txt?viewmode=fullstory

". ..On October 19, 2009, during a visit to the MSP, two family members of victim
Kristine Mihelich were shown file information about Busch's suicide, including photographs.
One photograph showed Busch dead in a bed with a shotgun next to his body. On the wall
and visible in this photograph was a drawing of a boy closely resembling the first victim,
Mark Stebbins. Another photograph showed bloody ligatures displayed on the floor in
the same room. These ligatures may have been used to bind some of the victims and
which are now described by the MSP as "missing. . ."
http://www.prnewswire.com/news-releases/the-oakland-county-child-killer-investigation-78692417.html

I admit the silence about further DNA test results has me intrigued.

shellbee
12-30-2010, 10:56 PM
-------------------------------------------------
Other killings that occurred in the area at the same time have been tentatively linked to the series.

Cynthia Cadieux, 16, was abducted and bludgeoned to death on January 15, 1976. Missing from Roseville she was discovered nude in Bloomfield Township the next day.

Just five days after Cadieux's disappearance Sheila Shrock was raped and shot dead at her home in Birmingham.




Hi Richard. I just wanted to provide an update....

Bobby J. Anglin was convicted for murdering Cynthia Cadieux. Oliver Rhodes Andrews confessed to and is serving time for the murder of Sheila Shrock.



(http://www.state.mi.us/mdoc/asp/otis2profile.asp?mdocNumber=116689)

Richard
01-02-2011, 12:18 AM
Hi Richard. I just wanted to provide an update....

Bobby J. Anglin was convicted for murdering Cynthia Cadieux. Oliver Rhodes Andrews confessed to and is serving time for the murder of Sheila Shrock.



(http://www.state.mi.us/mdoc/asp/otis2profile.asp?mdocNumber=116689)

Thank you for the update. How much time passed before they caught these two guys? One wonders how many other victims they terrorized or killed.

Terri Lynn
02-06-2011, 06:21 PM
Hi,
I was the one who posted the post in the Detroit Topix looking for other victims.
I can't possibly post all of what I want to say here ??
Busch was not the killer. He was monster, one of many. But, he didn't kill the four kids.
We think we know who did now ? Even the police are finally looking at this man.
Busch was a part of the Fox Island crew. He liked hurting little boys, not girls :( But, some of his clients had money. Real money, Fox Island money......not Busch, Greene, Lawson, Lamborgine money. Real money. No one looked at the client list ?? Well, they looked, then it disappeared. Busch and Greene didn't like little girls ?? Yes, they were hurt. Not as bad as the two boys, but hurt. The two boys were tortured. Sorry to say that, but it needs to be known ? Busch didn't kill himself, none of then did - long list now.
Who drew the picture of Mark that was found on the wall at Busch's ??
Someone who was warning others. Busch was getting ready to talk. He didn't. Niether did Hojnaki....Bo.....Flynn.....so many.
I'm here on this thread because you all seem to really care. The more you know, the more the police will have to know they have no choice but to make this right. I still have faith in one detective. He know what's going on now. They all do, so do the families.
It's been 35 years this month that Mark was killed. It's time.

Terri Lynn
02-07-2011, 02:08 AM
I just did a couple simple web searches to see if anything different turned up
since it has probably been long enough that something new might have surfaced on the web.
I doubt I found anything you all have not already seen but here are a few links.
As always, please check all stories for accuracy:

http://www.clevescene.com/cleveland/the-babysitter-killer/Content?oid=1498422

http://www.care2.com/c2c/groups/disc.html?gpp=5154&pst=881245

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oakland_County_Child_Killer

http://www.clickondetroit.com/news/5433527/detail.html

http://www.theoaklandpress.com/articles/2010/02/21/news/local_news/doc4b80a35d9c8d8139257227.txt?viewmode=default

http://www.dailytribune.com/articles/2009/11/25/opinion/srv0000006915553.txt?viewmode=fullstory

". ..On October 19, 2009, during a visit to the MSP, two family members of victim
Kristine Mihelich were shown file information about Busch's suicide, including photographs.
One photograph showed Busch dead in a bed with a shotgun next to his body. On the wall
and visible in this photograph was a drawing of a boy closely resembling the first victim,
Mark Stebbins. Another photograph showed bloody ligatures displayed on the floor in
the same room. These ligatures may have been used to bind some of the victims and
which are now described by the MSP as "missing. . ."
http://www.prnewswire.com/news-releases/the-oakland-county-child-killer-investigation-78692417.html

I admit the silence about further DNA test results has me intrigued.
The Clevescene author made up the story based on what he felt happened to Timmy. But, Lamborgine didn't kill that little boy. I do think Lamborgine has ties to North Fox Island and Oakland County. Given that, he might know - or thinks he knows - who killed Tim. He's not talking, no polygraph. He'd like to live, coward. I think Busch knew too much. Hoj too. How many were found dead ? Lots of suicides and accidents. Lawson has no idea who killed the kids. He named Bobbie Moore, then Lamborgine. Moore's rotting in Hell :)
In fact, when he died it took a while before someone found him ? His dogs got hungry. :) Almost Biblical ??
DNA on Busch. Probably done some basic tests. They didn't match. No one's has, yet. There's so much out there on Busch. The police still hope the families will go away. They didn't know how quickly the Busch info would reach the right people. Think about this too ?? People say Busch was driving around with Tim tied up in his car ?? Come on now ?? A HIGH profile kidnapping ?? Everybody looking ? No, he never had Tim. Maybe he and Lamborgine found look alikes ? There were sick enough to be jelous. But, only one man saw Tim. And Tim kind of knew him, kind of, so he went. It didn't happen in the parking lot with a blue Gremlin either.
This is all coming out soon......and it's about time. So, pray they can give the families peace. I hope more people come here to post. I think knowledge is power. The more people who know, the more the police have no choice but to finish this up.
Sorry, I'm a bad speller......

southern_scout
02-08-2011, 07:36 PM
Intrigued.

Omori
02-12-2011, 11:15 PM
I've been following this case for some years and I frequently travel Greenfield Road and I notice how easily it gives access to the victims. If you start at Big Beaver Road (aka 16 Mile Road) which is near where Jill Robinson's body was recovered, you can reach Woodward which passes near or through Bloomfield Twp. You take Woodward, which slants towards the southeast, all the way to 14 Mile. At that point, you're near where I read somewhere that Jill Robinson vanished. You turn right onto 14 Mile and go a very short distance--no more than a quarter mile and there's Greenfield on the left. You can't go right because there's just houses there. But if you go over those houses westward as the crow flies one mile up to West Maple Road (aka 15 Mile) you end up right at Maple and Woodward--precisely the spot where Tim King vanished.

Now head east on Greenfield. When you hit 12 Mile, you turn left on it and you can see the 7-11 where Kristine Mihelich vanished. It's visible from Greenfield or nearly so--very close to it. Across the street from the 7-11 is Hartfield Lanes bowling alley where Ms. Dagner's "John" claimed he actually picked up Kristine.

Now continue east on Greenfield past 12 Mile and when you get to 10 Mile, you are at the dumpsite of Mark Stebbins's body. Continue east on Greenfield to 9 Mile. If you make a left on 9 Mile, you pass first through Oak Park and then Ferndale where Stebbins disappeared. In fact, 9 Mile passes right through the heart of Ferndale. I always thought that area resembles Japan the way the street is so narrow and the shops and businesses are so close to the street. The next street you hit is Woodward again.

It seems to me that the killer spent his time cruising that route--Woodward to 14 Mile to Greenfield to 9 Mile to Woodward and then up to 15 Mile. I believe you have to turn at that point and can go left or right. There is a pharmacy there, I don't know if it's the one Tim King was at. I pulled around behind it and there is a big ol' parking lot there and so I drove around in it.

It seems to me, odd that the killer could have met these victims by happenstance. When I was in that parking lot, it hit me that there's no way a predator would just sit there waiting for some kid. He must have followed Tim there and waited for him to exit. How did he know Tim would come out the back? Not sure but Tim had his skateboard so maybe the killer figured the boy would likely want to have an expanse to skate on.

That means, the killer apparently followed each victim and got them when they were isolated. So he would have decided to go after one at a time until he got them all. That's still problematic in the taking of Jill Robinson since she was on her bike. Since it seems unlikely that he pulled her off her bike and got her in his car on a street as busy as Woodward--a major southeast Michigan thoroughfare--he somehow coaxed her to ditch the bike and come along with him willingly but how did he do that? What kid would just leave his or her bike where someone is sure to steal it unless she chained it to something immovable. I know they found the bike behind a hobby store in Royal Oak along Main Street--where I hang out a lot doing open mics and busking on streetcorners when it's warm. I don't know in what state the bike was in when found.

But Greenfield Road and Woodward seemed to the be the killer's main stalking ground. He used them to get himself east and west and could do so in a big hurry because the traffic really moves along both routes. I have driven both of them hundreds of times.

Omori
02-12-2011, 11:45 PM
I have also noticed a 3 and 1 pattern. Maybe others have noticed it also. This is where three of the victims fit a pattern but one of them does not.


Three were abducted or recovered on or the day after holidays: Robinson was abducted just after the winter solstice and her body recovered the day after Christmas. Mihelich was abducted the day after New Year and her body recovered on Martin Luther King’s birthday. Timmy King was abducted the day after the Ides of March (the day that Caesar and Christ were said to have died) and his body was recovered just after the passing of the vernal equinox. There is no reason to believe this is a coincidence since the murders betray a number of other patterns. The holidays, in fact, may have dictated why each victim was held for the length of time they were. Mark Stebbins does not fit this pattern, though. He was abducted the day before President’s Day in 1976 which occurred on February 16th. He was found on the 19th which doesn’t occur on or just after any particular holiday I know of.

Three victims were found in pristine condition--undamaged in any way. Jill Robinson, however, was shot in the face at close range with a shotgun.

Three of the victims were kept in captivity for less than a week. Krstine Mihelich, however, was kept for 19 days.

The most perplexing 3 and 1 to me is the dumping of Tim King's body. The other three were dumped in Oakland County. King was dumped in Wayne County across 8 Mile. The thing is, why there? I heard there was a lot of construction there at the time and signs all over the place redirecting traffic. Why choose that spot? There were better spots perfectly available in Oakland County. Why take the chance of being caught in this area where a car could come out of nowhere? Doesn't seem to be chance. Seems the dumpsites were chosen in advance. When you look at it on a map, it's way out of place from where the other bodies were dumped.

Gill Road is a nice area. I've driven it all the way down to 7 Mile and there's some nice houses out there. If you go west on 7 Mile past Haggerty Road, you'll come across the Northville Psychiatric Hospital. It's just a hulking ruins now and has been since about 2002 or 3 when it was closed. Apparently, the city doesn't know what to do with the land. No takers. Driving past it at night is really spooky. No lights on in the place and the buildings just stand black and silent against the night sky. Really daunting looking. Kids still go there to explore and party. I never have. A lot of the buildings are unsafe. The place just gives me the creeps and it doesn't look that much less daunting in broad daylight. It has tunnels too and they are said to be haunted. Some wonder if the killer could have been a patient there. It was still in operation when the murder spree occurred. It's a fair question. It's the only thing that seems to explain why King's body was laid so far away from Greenfield, Woodward and Telegraph area.

But I really have no idea. The Killer might have just been playing up on the haunted tunnels stories by placing a child's body in the area. But I believe the killer had some connection to the area since he seemed to have gone out of his way to dump a body there.

katydid23
02-13-2011, 05:36 AM
Terri Lynn,

Your posts are fascinating and informative and passionate. How did you come across so much inside information. ???? I hope you are correct.

Omori
02-13-2011, 01:33 PM
Obviously, the killer was someone the kids trusted. Had to be. For that reason we can eliminate Chris Busch. One look at him and you know there's no way any kid (or for that matter any adult) is getting in a car with that guy. Hastings has simply been investigated and cleared too many times to warrant any further interest unless some new evidence pops up. At best, he had a very peripheral involvement of the "friend-of-a-friend-of-a-friend-told-me" type thing.

Right now, I don't trust anybody's suspect. Everybody has their favorite and can reel off three dozen compelling reasons why it's him. You solve the case with your info and I'll believe you but until then I don't trust anybody's suspect. Right now, all we really have to go on is the evidence at hand which isn't a lot.

We can safely eliminate the blue Gremlin thing. That has never produced anything useful and has sent the cops on wild goose chases. Same with the hair found on Tim King's body. That could have come from anybody. The killer could have deliberately planted it. It's not really that good a piece of evidence as many seem to think. At best, it's 50-50 that it ever proves anything.

Putting Robinson's bike in the trunk is reasonable to assume. She wouldn't just leave it there although I have a problem with the killer bringing it back and placing it off Main Street where he could have been observed but that's likely what he did because I can't believe the girl just left the bike to go somewhere with this individual. He probably did it in the wee hours of the morning after the bars closed.

About the girls being molested, we don't have any hard evidence to suggest it. In fact, the impression I get is that the girls were taken for bonding purposes otherwise why was Mihelich kept for so long? The killer bonded with her. I can't think of any other reason. Why was Robinson kept only three days--less than any of the others--and then shot in the face? The evidence showed she was shot where she lay. That indicates she was already incapacitated, dead or unconscious when it happened. IOW, she would have died whether shot or not. Apparently, Robinson wasn't in the bonding mood so the killer got rid of her and then shot her in the face as a show of disrespect. A way of saying, "I didn't like this one."

The two boys had marks showing that they had been bound. They had been sodomized with a dildo or other object. It's reasonable to assume they were bound for this reason.

I think in all cases, the children were told they were going to be set free. Had to be. Otherwise how do you get a child to eat a last meal of fried chicken if he knew he was going to die?

The method of asphyxiation is open to question. I think Dagner thought it was a muscle relaxant. That's actually not a bad assumption. It would answer a lot of questions. No violence has to be committed, no fighting and struggling, no pleading and screaming. You just inject them at a moment that they don't expect it and they just go limp and die within 10 or 15 minutes. That could explain how King's body could still be warm. However, it would depend on what the autopsy found and whether any muscle relaxants were ever tested for.

When you add it up: Girls not molested, one kept 19 days, boys sodomized with an object, clothes washed and pressed, bodies bathed, pedicures and manicures, last meals, no death struggles all point to something not too many give much credence to: the killer could have been a female. If you're a child and a woman calls you to her car, you're probably not going to be wary at all. Even calling the killer "Babysitter" implies a female presence.

But whether male or female, the next issue we must think about is exactly how the killer got the child to their place of captivity without things getting messy. If some man or woman you know says, "Let me drive you home" and then takes off in another direction, you're probably going to fight. If I were Tim King, I would have bashed with you with my skateboard.

That leads me to think there was more than one person in the car. So we probably have at least two people working in collusion. Possibly males were carrying out the orders of a female. In cases like that, it's usually a mother-son thing.

Omori
02-13-2011, 01:52 PM
He used them to get himself east and west and could do so in a big hurry because the traffic really moves along both routes. I have driven both of them hundreds of times.

Whoops. I should have said north and south--not east and west. Sorry.

AKWILKS
02-13-2011, 03:53 PM
All of the four definite OCCK abductions or drop offs took place within ONE DAY of Holidays.

Mark Stebbins, abducted 2/15/76, one day after Valentines Day.

Jill Robinson, abducted 12/22/76, Winter Solstice, three days before Christmas, body dropped off on 12/26/76, one day after Christmas.

Kristine Mihelich, abducted 1/2/77, one day after New Years Day.

Timothy King, abducted 3/16/77, one day before St. Patrick's Day, body dropped off on 3/22/77, Spring Exquinox and Pagan/Norse Spring Festival

I noted the appearance of Nature, Wood and Tree themes in the OCCK case. It is true that there are many streets and cities that have such names. So two or maybe even three appearances might be a coincidence. But the number of times they appear seems to be beyond chance; it seemed to be a choice of the killer.

First victim Mark Stebbins lived in and was abducted from FERNDALE. A FERN is a type of plant, and DALE, comes from Norse word DALR, is an open VALLEY. Body discovered on GREENFIELD Road, the border between OAK Park and SouthFIELD, laid out on SNOW.

Second victim Jill Robinson lived in and was abducted from Royal OAK. Body found near Big BEAVER Road, laid out on SNOW.

Third victim Kristine Mihelich abducted on or near OAKshire Street in Berkley. Body found on Bruce Lane, between FOREST and HICKORY Streets, laid out on SNOW, near CREEK and TREES.

Fourth victim Timothy King abducted on or near MAPLE Street in Birmingham. Body found on GILL Road (not far from RIVERSIDE Street).

Message from man called "Allen", claiming to be accomplice of killer, and who I think was the killer, demanded message in front page of paper saying TREES to BLOOM and TREES BLOOM.

Mark's body was placed on GREENFIELD Road, and both Kristine and Timothy were abducted near GREENFIELD Road.

The victims lived in and were abducted from, in order, Ferndale, Royal Oak, Berkley and Birmingham. This is the same order as these cities appear when you travel northwest on WOODward Road.

Just looking at the confirmed cases, they go in a nortwest direction up WOODward. Are there other patterns?
http://i24.servimg.com/u/f24/14/94/97/81/occk_m10.jpg

waltzingmatilda
02-13-2011, 04:27 PM
I've never heard of this case until today when I stumbled upon it. I have only read the last 2 pages of the thread and I must compliment you all on your insightful contributions!

My first instinct....? I agree with Omori. My gut instinct says this perp is a female. MOO

Okay, i am off to begin reading at thread 1 and catch up. Thanks all for your fascinating insight! I am not a local so there is not much i can contribut but will follow along with you all and learn as I go:D

wm

Terri Lynn
02-14-2011, 01:23 AM
Terri Lynn,

Your posts are fascinating and informative and passionate. How did you come across so much inside information. ???? I hope you are correct.

Friend of the King family, I know who found this info, and I know the accused's friend.
I hope "they" are right too. All I did was find someone who new things, contacted the Kings, and offered up what I knew.
I didn't know I had been talking to a friend of the current suspect.
I was hurt by Lawson as a child. You look for answers after that, you just keep looking.

Terri Lynn
02-14-2011, 02:20 AM
I agree. We have to wait for DNA testing to come back to know if this man is the killer or not. We're pretty sure it's the killer's DNA because it was found in a mouth, placed on purpose. He might have thought about blood typing, but didn't count on DNA in the future. So, we hope it's his hair, but it must be.
I wish it would have been Hastings. Case solved. Same for the rest of them. But, this isn't my suspect. I thought it was Lamborgine myself.....but, it's not. I think they have the right man which is sad because now we know what most likely happened to the kids
:(
Jill's bike ? We'll never know. This man is dead. Even if they prove it to be him, he's not around to talk to.
I don't like talking about the sexual abuse....out of common respect ? But, the boys were tied and they were hurt......very bad. More than I care to think about. They didn't go gently. I've seen the picture of Mark left at Busch's :( It fits with what we know he did to him. The girls were orally raped, they were hurt in other ways. Things.....well, BTK didn't rape every victim, but they were hurt and tortured in other ways that brought him sexual gratification :( There was no 'Bonding" Don't think of him as a baby sitter, he wasn't. He didn't do a single kind thing to these kids. No one knows what they ate or wore, what they did. They were found clean, it was part of his ritual. Nothing in being nice. Same for the food. I think Jill was shot because that's what she feared the most. He talked to these kids when he drew them. They watched tv. Saw their families on tv. All part of his pleasure. I think they thought they were going home too. But, if you were in their place, you'd eat if he told you to. I think the police let little information out there over the years and I'm glad they didn't. No one was ready to think someone would hurt children in this way ?? Then four of them ? And the cops can't find him ? Can you imagine ? I would have moved ?? Plus, the families didn't want things made public. They still don't.
I'm waiting for permission to name the man. But, I can't yet. I think the King's will go public soon. But, I still think the details of what happened to the kids should be left out. It's just the right thing to do and the families deserve that.
I'm looking at the comments above........Ok. They did die slowly, he used no drugs. That was part of the pain he enjoyed causing. Nothing went easy for the kids. They were small, abused, weak, hurt, raped....easy to control :( He tortured them. He was a monster, not a baby sitter.
A second person is possible, but so far doesn't seem to be the case.
He knew these kids. He was never a suspect. He was from the area. He was right in their faces ?? No one knew ?? I think deep down his friend is starting to except it. His wife is dead, the kids the police will deal with. But, no one knew.....
The holidays ? Just happened to be that way. Maybe easier on his schedule or the kids ? I think we try to fit every little thing in to what we know ? Some of it is just coincidence ? (spelling?) We're looking for a killer, so we look at all of it. But, we need to ?? We do.
The police have the entire story now. They've had it about two weeks now. So how long this will take, I have no idea ? Only DNA will convict this dead man. But, if he went to trial today. I think he'd be found guilty. I almost wish he were alive to confess. But, he would have kept killing. I'll tell you this - the people who killed him were sure he was the right man. They made that well known in the way they killed him ! If they were right, they're heroes !! But, they were into the same thing, kids...just not like this man. He wanted something special. He wanted his fantasy. He went out and got it. :( If it was him, I'm glad he was killed in the way he was. If he didn't do it, I feel bad. Really bad, for what he went through. These were professionals who killed him. I don't think they had the wrong man.
Many men were killed during that time including Busch. None were killed like he was.
The other men were just kind of higher up low lives on the kiddie porn/kiddie trade chain.
Busch, Hojnacki, Flynn, Johnston, Bobbie Moore, Pierce....others. Why Lawson and Lamborgine are alive I don't know ? I'd like to see them both get the same thing. They're evil and cruel. Redmond is alive in California. The police will not go get him. When this all comes out, we need to demand that things like that be done !! I don't care how long it's been !! His victims are alive ?? Lock him up 'til he dies !
Ok....woman ? No one found. Just men. So, if he was helped, it was a man.
If the kids were held where we think ?? Lamborgine and Redmond knew the place well. So did Busch and Greene. Bennett too. He's free in Alabama. Oh ya -- the papers had reported that Busch, Greene, and Bennett were arrested together. Now it says Busch, Greene, and Gunnels ?? Can some one explain that to us ?? Gunnels was a victim. He stayed with them for a bit when he was older, but hurt no one. He just wanted out and he got out. He's been in jail off and on for small drug charges. He just got out. I was talking to him in jail. He doesn't get it either and doesn't trust anyone right now. I don't blame him ?? Something like that could put his life in danger ?? Bennett should be in for life ! See, when this comes out, we need to demand the police quit hiding their screw ups and do the right thing ! The Cass Corridor and Fox Island kids count too. They helped solve much of this.

Terri Lynn
02-14-2011, 02:29 AM
Too tired tonight.......Alan was real. He thought, and with good reason, that the Cass crew was killing the kids :(
He helped convict Lawson and Lamborgine.......then he took his own life.
Something his friends are still having a hard time with.
I never met him. I hear he was a sweet kid, good man. He was being held by Bobbie Moore.
The word games ?? Well, only the killer knows what they meant to him ? He did everything as he planned. It all went his way, until Timmy. That was a quick drop off.
You look at all of it......you'll see Busch and the other crews didn't do this. This man was a genious. He wanted each child's experience to be perfected to his plans. Sadly, he got that. Happily, he was stopped. And it seems his killers enjoyed themselves. :)

Terri Lynn
02-14-2011, 02:30 AM
Oh, I haven't done it, but with your map up there I will.....I guess either the pick up or drop off patterns made a diamond shape ? I haven't tried it. Curious though....
There were only four victims. They were taken because he wanted "them". No name play there. But, the drop off patterns were planned.

Omori
02-14-2011, 01:26 PM
I'm doubting your information, Terri Lynn, because how could this much time pass--34 years since the last victim--and suddenly here's THE ultimate suspect? I've heard this before many times and it has never panned out.

If you are certain who this guy is, tell us. If you're not certain then why are you talking as though you are, as though you know exactly what he did to those kids and how? How could you know that and not be certain this man is the killer? So if you are certain--tell us who it is.

It's time for you posters who keep talking like you know something no one else does to start proving it. Allen was real? Tell us who he is then. What's his name, how was he involved?

I keep reading posts all over the net by people who talk like they have the inside track on this case and know who all the players are and how it was all done but won't quite put their money where their mouth is. And 34 years later the case remains unsolved.

Yes, I'm calling you on this one. You're talking like you know too much and if you do--out with it already. If you're so certain you know who the killer is then the DNA will confirm it.

This case has gone unsolved long enough.

katydid23
02-14-2011, 01:44 PM
I think the King family has asked her not to name the suspect publicly. Maybe she can PM
his name to you so she can respect their wishes.
It seems she was one of their victims when she was a child so maybe we can be gentle with her. Just sayin...

margaret_diane
02-14-2011, 03:46 PM
Has anyone else noticed the pattern of the abductions? The kids were taken in the following order:
-> Sunday February 15, 1976 (Mark Stebbins). Abducted.
-> Found Dead - Thursday February 19, 1976.
-> Wednesday December 22, 1976 (Jill Robinson). Abducted.
-> Found Dead - Sunday December 26, 1976.
-> Sunday, January 2, 1977 (Kristine Mihelich). Abducted.
-> Found Dead - Thursday January 21, 1977.
-> Wednesday March 16, 1977. (Timmy King). Abducted.
-> Found Dead - Tuesday March 22, 1977

In addition to being on or near holidays, the kids were abducted on Sunday and Wednesdays.

The kids bodies were found on Tuesday, Sunday and Thursday. This is an interesting point to consider:
-> The first and third victims were abducted on Sunday, and found on Wednesday.
-> The second victim disappeared on a Wednesday and found on a Sunday.
- > The fourth victim went missing on a Wednesday and was found on a Tuesday.

This makes me wonder what the significance of the of the dates? Did the abductor have a job maybe that kept him busy perhaps on an alternating schedule? One week he worked such and such and was off on such and such dates, and then the week after, perhaps it was the opposite schedule?

No one would have noticed a man absent from work, if it wasn't his scheduled day to be AT work. Its possible (if he were employed) that he even worked while he HAD the kids (tied up?) at his place (or a cottage, or cabin, or shed... wherever he kept them).

There is a definite pattern noted in his abductions, and when bodies were found. The only variance from the pattern was the last victim (Timmy King) who was found on a Tuesday.

I'm planning to do some more checking into the times the kids disappeared vs. when they were found, but it seems (off the top of my head) that they disappeared in the late afternoon / early evening, and were found laid out in the mornings (between 9:30-1:00pm)? I'm not 100% sure about this as yet, but if I'm correct, then this might also be an important clue.

So I ask again - why are the kids disappearing on Sundays and Wednesdays, and being found on Wednesdays and Thursdays (all but Timmy who was found on a Tuesday)??

I've not really had a chance yet to scan the calendar for the entire timeline, but I suspect that the pattern above will line up with a schedule of sorts (like a work week schedule).

Omori
02-15-2011, 12:04 AM
Yes, I've noticed the Sunday-Wednesday pattern. A lot of people have. It's also noteworthy that the Sunday victims vanished in the afternoon and the Wednesay victims vanished at nightfall. It's a pattern that certaily cannot be ignored.

The vanishing near holidays and "hinge" days (equinoxes and solistices) is also one that cannot be ignored. I just named a few off the top of my head and AKWILKS added a few more and when you look at that total picture, we ignore it at our peril.

The days that the bodies were found I had not considered but it deserves consideration. That fact that King doesn't fit it is another 3 and 1.

I also had not considered the nature angle AKWILKS brought up. I don't know how much stock can be put in it but it's something to consider. It could mean for example, that he was picturing himself as a predator in the wilderness. Hence he might be a hunting enthusiast.

Another pattern, even though it's out of order is that the victims were taken in December, January, February and March. Strangely, one month occurs before the New Year and the other three after it--another 3 and 1.

I agree that employee records migh give a clue--but where to start?

There's lots of patterns to be found in these murders. Whether they help us pinpoint a suspect who proves to be the real deal is doubtful after all this time. There's virtually no chance a killer wll ever be caught or even named in this crime after so much time had passed. But there's always that chance. It's hard to let it sit unsolved.

Omori
02-15-2011, 12:22 AM
I think the King family has asked her not to name the suspect publicly. Maybe she can PM
his name to you so she can respect their wishes.
It seems she was one of their victims when she was a child so maybe we can be gentle with her. Just sayin...

If the King family wants this kept secret then it would only be because they are not sure this person is the Babysitter but Terri Lynn talks as though there's no doubt about it. That this person went under the radar for 35 years only to now emerge as a strong suspect is doubtful.

When I pointed out that the girls weren't molested, she said BTK didn't rape every victim. BTK didn't rape ANY victim, he wasn't a rapist. I find it hard to believe the killer forced the girls to perform fellatio on him. He didn't have the sand to sodomize the boys with his own tool--he had to use a dildo--but then he turns around and forces it into the mouths of his female victims? Not hardly. He is either sexually inadequate or he is not a "he."

And I am very surprised by her statement that she knew Allen. Really? Because as far as I know (and please correct me if I am wrong), the press does not know who Allen is, LE does not know who Allen and Dr. Bruce Danto does not know who Allen is. Now how could she know?? And to know his identity and not tell anybody?? That might be important, don't you think? Or did the King family not want her to talk about him either?

I'm sorry but her story does not compute.

katydid23
02-15-2011, 01:42 AM
If the King family wants this kept secret then it would only be because they are not sure this person is the Babysitter but Terri Lynn talks as though there's no doubt about it. That this person went under the radar for 35 years only to now emerge as a strong suspect is doubtful.

When I pointed out that the girls weren't molested, she said BTK didn't rape every victim. BTK didn't rape ANY victim, he wasn't a rapist. I find it hard to believe the killer forced the girls to perform fellatio on him. He didn't have the sand to sodomize the boys with his own tool--he had to use a dildo--but then he turns around and forces it into the mouths of his female victims? Not hardly. He is either sexually inadequate or he is not a "he."

And I am very surprised by her statement that she knew Allen. Really? Because as far as I know (and please correct me if I am wrong), the press does not know who Allen is, LE does not know who Allen and Dr. Bruce Danto does not know who Allen is. Now how could she know?? And to know his identity and not tell anybody?? That might be important, don't you think? Or did the King family not want her to talk about him either?

I'm sorry but her story does not compute.

As for BTK, I guess it depends upon how you define rape. There was semen of his found on the bodies of some of his victims, so...? A sexual predator for sure.

Terri Lynn
02-20-2011, 01:45 AM
How did you post the map on here ?

docwho3
02-20-2011, 02:08 AM
. . . If you go west on 7 Mile past Haggerty Road, you'll come
across the Northville Psychiatric Hospital. It's just a hulking ruins now and has been since
about 2002 or 3 when it was closed. . .
I did read some speculation in this thread about the possible use of muscle relaxing meds.
Granted, I have not seen any actual evidence to prove it but it is one possibility
out of many & if true then I suppose one source of meds to use on a victim might
come from a place that gives out psych meds.
(Note: I am only commenting on it as a possibility out of thousands & not
making it my own personal pet theory.)


. . . The most perplexing 3 and 1 to me is the dumping of Tim King's body.
The other three were dumped in Oakland County.
King was dumped in Wayne County across 8 Mile. The thing is, why there? . . .



. . . I heard there was a lot of construction there at the time
and signs all over the place redirecting traffic. Why choose that spot? . . .
You may have answered your own question.
If you are a killer with a captive or a body in your vehicle you might be a bit paranoid
about having to stop and wait for traffic to move on at a construction site & this might
cause you to panic and dump a body. Especially if you are getting close to an area where
you might be known on sight to some of the other people also
slowed or stopped & waiting on construction.

Or then again it might simply have been that the boy told him he liked construction tools
and construction vehicles so he was taken there at the last.

*****************************
Note: The 'why' giving the children last meals or other last gifts might
point to a slightly narrowed list of suspects.
Perhaps the killer was mad at God over having lost a child, hence the
snow
and the blood (being washed by the blood or sins covered by it to be whiter than snow)
especially being on or near a mound . . .as being similar
to going up the hill of golgotha (hill of the skull.)

Or maybe the 'last gifts' were merely a way of proving to himself that he was not a monster
even if he needed to kill for some 'reason' of his own.

The rest of you may even come up with better ideas. I just wanted to
start the ball rolling a bit.

zadari
02-24-2011, 02:54 PM
Ooooooooh - Richard - thanks so much for posting this one!!!! I live in Oakland County, minutes from Troy, Royal Oak, and the other cities mentioned here, and this case has ALWAYS fascinated me......
hey that is cool u live so close to me i live in shelby township .. and my mother in law knew one of the victims i guess i cannot remember which one tho

Omori
02-27-2011, 12:34 PM
I did read some speculation in this thread about the possible use of muscle relaxing meds.
Granted, I have not seen any actual evidence to prove it but it is one possibility
out of many & if true then I suppose one source of meds to use on a victim might
come from a place that gives out psych meds.
(Note: I am only commenting on it as a possibility out of thousands & not
making it my own personal pet theory.)

Of course. Nobody knows what the killer's motivation was. <mod snip>


You may have answered your own question.
If you are a killer with a captive or a body in your vehicle you might be a bit paranoid
about having to stop and wait for traffic to move on at a construction site & this might
cause you to panic and dump a body. Especially if you are getting close to an area where
you might be known on sight to some of the other people also
slowed or stopped & waiting on construction. Or then again it might simply have been that the boy told him he liked construction tools
and construction vehicles so he was taken there at the last.


First of all, I don't know that there was any construction in the area. I said I had heard or read it somewhere from a source that was not authoritative. I have no idea if there was any construction there at all. I could be confusing that info with another case I might have read about. When I start off a sentence with "I read that..." ir "I heard that..." that's exactly what I mean--I read or heard it somewhere and it may or may not be true--I don't have any idea myself. My mere word is not gospel and I don't want it to be regarded that way. I don't know who the killer is and I don't claim to.

As for panicking, what was there to panic about? If I'm cruising around at night with a body in my car, what am I going to panic about? Nobody's going to know. Nobody's going to see it. The killer obviously was not in a hurry as you-know-who speculates because the body was way off the beaten track compared to the others. If you're in a hurry, you don't go miles out of your way--that's somewhat counter-productive.

The kille put the body there because he wanted it to be found there. This guy left nothing to chance. Everything he did was planned out. He knew exactly what he was going to do and how he was going to do it. If there was a lot of construction on Gill Road, then his dumping Timmy there could have been simply a taunt--he dumps a body where it would be difficult to do so without being seen. Just his way of saying, "You can't catch me. Nobody can catch me." And 34 years later, he's been right.



Note: The 'why' giving the children last meals or other last gifts might
point to a slightly narrowed list of suspects.
Perhaps the killer was mad at God over having lost a child, hence the
snow
and the blood (being washed by the blood or sins covered by it to be whiter than snow)
especially being on or near a mound . . .as being similar
to going up the hill of golgotha (hill of the skull.)

Or maybe the 'last gifts' were merely a way of proving to himself that he was not a monster
even if he needed to kill for some 'reason' of his own.

The rest of you may even come up with better ideas. I just wanted to
start the ball rolling a bit.

I think we have to do away with all the current suspects and all this "I know who it was" garbage and start from square 1. So I commend you for that. We have to deduce from the killer's actions what he or she was thinking. This person may very well have lost a child (maybe even deliberately so) but that also brings us perilously close to the "killer was a woman" theory again. No matter how far away from it you try to get, you circle back around to it again. 34 years of looking at male suspects nets us nothing.

I remember when Sandra Cantu was first missing. Everybody thought it was some sexual offender who just got released from prison. Her body too had been violated with an object. And who turned out to be her killer? A woman. In the case of the Babysitter, how long do we continue to ignore it?

docwho3
03-01-2011, 01:56 PM
Note: (Not intending to be rude or mean, I am just discussing points back & forth.)
**************************


. . . .First of all, I don't know that there was any construction in the area.
I said I had heard or read it somewhere from a source that was not authoritative. . .
As far as I read and copied & pasted from your post you said,
'. . .I heard there was a lot of construction there at the time
and signs all over the place redirecting traffic. Why choose that spot? . . .'
While you did say it was something you heard, you did not say you doubted the source
but, either way, you had put out the statement that you had 'heard' it & then went on
to pose a question as to why someone would choose that spot under such conditions.
I then read your post & responded accordingly.
'What if' what you heard was true . . . .then it might lead to
certain other possibilies such as I mentioned.

This does point to the fact that playing the 'what if' sort of loose discussion of a case
can at times make it difficult to stick close to actual case details as reported in MSM.

'. . .My mere word is not gospel and I don't want it to be regarded that way. I don't know
who the killer is and I don't claim to. . .'
I never took your words to mean anything other than a loose sort of 'what if'
sort of discussion of case possibilities. Looking at a case from all sorts of possibilities can
sometimes lead to new thoughts about the case that were overlooked in years past.

'. . .As for panicking, what was there to panic about? If I'm cruising around at
night with a body in my car, what am I going to panic about? Nobody's going to know.
Nobody's going to see it. . .'
If what you had heard about construction was so then a person might panic
and I would need to reread reports about the case to see if the body was most likely
dumped at night or during the day. I do recall that in at least one post it was mentioned that
one of the bodies was still warm when found. Not saying it was this instance but just
that such details, if available, might prove helpful.
Also I do not know if any night construction was ongoing in that area at that time or if any
drunk driving checkpoints were happening then.
Although it might seem unlikely, construction does sometimes happen at all hours, even into night or
into the evening hours in some places if there is need for it to do so.
And again, I was only responding to the post of the possible contruction which you
had 'heard' was taking place then.

'. . .because the body was way off the beaten track compared to the others.
If you're in a hurry, you don't go miles out of your way--that's somewhat counter-productive. . .'
Actually we do not know it was out of the killer's way to dump this body in that spot.
It might have been on his way to somewhere. We just do not know.
Also if it was in the construction area you 'heard' of then it was not so much
off the beaten track was it?


'. . .The killer put the body there because he wanted it to be found there. This guy left
nothing to chance. Everything he did was planned out. . .'
The killer does indeed seem to have planned & staged his body dumps in almost all of his
dumps so the one dump site that at least has a possibility of being unplanned
is of great interest to me. It might yield more clues about the killer than the other sites.
A planned or staged dump only lets one see what the killer wants one to see
(to the best of his/their ability) but an unplanned dump could mean the killer/s did not
have time to control what evidence was seen or what conclusions might be drawn from the location.

' . . .I think we have to do away with all the current suspects and all this "I know who it was"
garbage and start from square 1. So I commend you for that. We have to deduce from
the killer's actions what he or she was thinking. This person may very well have lost
a child (maybe even deliberately so) but that also brings us perilously close to the
"killer was a woman" theory again. No matter how far away from it you try to get,
you circle back around to it again. 34 years of looking at male suspects nets us nothing. . . '
I certainly would not rule out female participation without evidence to support it.
Yet it also seems that a huge male ego was at work here too.
I agree that we need to look at this case from square one and think it through.

'. . .I remember when Sandra Cantu was first missing. Everybody thought it was some
sexual offender who just got released from prison. Her body too had been violated with
an object. And who turned out to be her killer? A woman. In the case of the Babysitter,
how long do we continue to ignore it?. . .'
Point taken. We must keep an open mind to who the killer/s might have been.

I have read of cases where the victims were violated with an object that had male perps
and I have read of similar cases where females were the perp.

I wish we had a good trained & experienced criminal profiler to tell us more of what that sort of
violation means. What does it tell us about the perp/s?

katydid23
03-01-2011, 06:24 PM
I, for one, really appreciate your posts here Terri LYnn. I feel that you have a lot of important information. <mod snip> I like reading your thoughts about this case and I value your input.

Thanks
kate

imamaze
03-04-2011, 11:33 PM
We have went through and removed several posts and edited some that is against our TOS.
Terms of Service Terms of Service - Short, Plain Language Version
We have a detailed, formal Terms of Service (TOS) posted separately, and that TOS is what you will be held to as a member here. It's long and detailed because it has to be in the world we live in, and you are expected to read it, understand it and abide by it. However, we can sum it up as follows:
1) Be a decent human being;
2) Treat your fellow posters as the decent human beings they are;
3) Keep in mind that whatever you post will likely live on forever, so think before you press "Submit Reply".
4) It's a big world. People will disagree with you. You will disagree with them. This can be done with respect, and that's what we expect.

BBM...

Lets get back to discussing the case in a respectful manner. Thanks.

Ima

Omori
03-05-2011, 09:57 PM
I have read of cases where the victims were violated with an object that had male perps
and I have read of similar cases where females were the perp.

I wish we had a good trained & experienced criminal profiler to tell us more of what that sort of
violation means. What does it tell us about the perp/s?

From what I've read, it can mean the perp is sexaully inadequate or a woman. John Douglas profiled BTK and noted that he never raped a victim but rather masturbated on them as they were dying. He took it to mean that BTK did not get off on sexually dominating his victims but on tying them up. Here's what he wrote in his book, Inside the Mind of BTK:

"Without a doubt, BTK was a sadist who inflicted unfathomable horrors upon his victims. Yet he also differed from all the other sexual sadists I'd studied, guys who needed to inflict physical torture in order to be sexually satisfied. He got off by employing a form of torture that was predominantly mental, not physical. Although he seemed obsessed with physical torture, it wasn't part of what's referred to as his 'signature,' which is what a killer must do to satisfy himself psychologically. BTK's signature was bondage--not physical torture.

"BTK never penetrated any of his victims. It would have been easy to interpret this type of behavior as though he were trying to say You're not even good enough for me to rape. But I knew better.

"His decision to not rape his victims or engage in necrophilia actually told me that despite BTK's sexual obsessions, deep down inside his mind he felt hopelessly inadequate. His opinion of himself was so low--and his fear of women so great--that he could never bring himself to thrust himself so intimately into any of his victims. They were used purely as props. Masturbation was the only sexual activity he enjoyed during his binding, torture and killing."

Why should we believe Douglas? Well, for one, he was the first to profile the Unabomber and said that whoever it was, he was very intelligent, had a degree or degrees from a prestigious university and may even teach at one. A new crop of profilers discarded this profile contemptuously and said, "Nah, he's probably some blue collar guy like an airplane mechanic--some technical expertise and good with his hands but otherwise blue collar." Of course, they couldn't have been more wrong. Kaczynski was so bad with his hands that he'd buy a new car instead of trying to fix one that only needed a new belt or battery. Douglas, on the other hand, was on the money--eerily so. So my money is on whatever Douglas says.

So whoever assaulted Mark Stebbins and Tim King was either sexually inadequate and unable to penetrate them with his own penis or the perp was a female. The other possibility is that the perp was not a pedo and had done these things for totally different reasons and I'm starting to lean towards this one.

Omori
03-05-2011, 10:14 PM
All were abducted or recovered on or the day after holidays: Stebbins vanished the day after Valentine's Day and was his body was recovered the day Aquarius ends. Robinson was abducted on the winter solstice and her body recovered the day after Christmas (a.k.a. Boxing day). Mihelich was abducted the day after the New Year and her body recovered on the day Aquarius commences. Timmy King was abducted the day after the Ides of March (the day that Caesar and Christ were said to have died) and his body was recovered the day after the vernal equinox. There is no reason to believe this is a coincidence since the murders betray a number of other patterns. The holidays, in fact, may have dictated why each victim was held for the length of time they were. All four victims' bodies were recovered within the month in which each vanished. None straddled two months.



Robinson was abducted the latest into the month and kept for the least amount of time. Mihelich was abducted the earliest in the month and kept for the longest time while the two male victims were abducted in the middle of the month. Robinson vanished on December 22, Mihelich’s body was recovered on January 21. Stebbins vanished on February 15 and King disappeared on March 16. So the two female victims share a month-and-a-day relationship as do the two male victims.


It’s too much to be coincidence. I said earlier that this angle may have dictated why the children were held the length of time they were. Or is it coincidence that Kristine Mihelich was abducted the day after New Year's and her body found on the commencement of Aquarius? Then another victim is found at the close of Aquarius. That’s a bit much to chalk up to coincidence.

So I think we have to seriously entertain that the killer was an astrology nut. He was consulting the stars about when to kill, whom to kill, how to kill them and where to place the bodies. This would mean the killer was adept at casting horoscopes. Or was he? He could have been seeing an astrologer adept at casting horoscopes.

What is striking is that just a short walk from where Mihelich vanished is the Mayflower Bookstore and the owner does indeed cast horoscopes and has many clients including some very famous ones. When I asked him how long his store was at that location, he said since 1985—long after the killing spree. But he also said he founded Mayflower in 1971 and that it was originally located on Woodward near 9 Mile (where the Om Café now sits) close to where Stebbins disappeared. There is no other bookstore in this area with the extensive catalog of books and astrology clients that Mayflower has—it’s kind of the 800 lb gorilla in the room. So, I wonder if the killer was a client of Mayflower? It is possible the owner may have cast this individual’s horoscope. It is possible the killer is still a customer or client of Mayflower.

I cast no aspersions on Mayflower itself, it is a very fine establishment offering a catalog of books that can’t be found anywhere else in this area that I know of. Usually, one has to go to California or New York to find such a place. I have never spoken with the owner about OCCK. It’s not the kind of subject one wants to have brought up in one’s own business establishment with customers roaming around and what not. But he has been in business here for 40 years and knows all kinds of people. I would be very interested in getting his take on the killings. I don’t know if the cops ever questioned him because I don’t know if they ever noticed the astrological connections. I cast no aspersions on the owner. I’ve known him for many years and he’s a good guy. But I do wonder if among his clientele going back four decades if one of them might possibly be the one now known as the Babysitter. And could he still be a client?


There seems to be a 3 and 1 pattern concerning certain aspects. For instance, three of the bodies were found in Oakland County but one was found in Wayne. Three bodies were found in pristine condition but one had been shot in the face. Three of the victims were kept less than a week while one was kept for 19 days. Of the months each victim was taken—December, January, February and March—three of them occur after the New Year and one before it.


When I look at the 3 and 1 aspect, it seems to me to be more than a coincidence. I don’t know if the killer was consciously setting one victim off from the others, it could be something done subconsciously so I began searching through Jung, who has done so much work on the subconscious and I’ll quote verbatim what he wrote. Jung recounts various fairytales which he asserts carry a plethora of subconscious symbolism. This is from his book Archetypes and the Collection Unconscious:

“Between the three and the four there exists the primary opposition of male and female, but whereas fourness is a symbol of wholeness, threeness is not. The latter, according to alchemy, denotes polarity, since one triad always presupposes another, just as high presupposes low, lightness darkness, good evil. In terms of energy, polarity means a potential, and wherever potential exists there is the possibility of a current, a flow of events, for the tension of opposites strives for balance….In psychological language we should say that when the unconscious wholeness becomes manifest, i.e. leaves the unconscious and crosses over into the sphere of consciousness, one of the four remain behind, held fast by the horror vacui of the unconscious. There thus arises a triad, which as we know—not from the fairytale but from the history of symbolism—constellates a corresponding triad in opposition to it—in other words, a conflict ensues. Here too we could ask with Socrates, ‘One, two, three—but, my dear Timaeus, of those who yesterday were banqueters and today are banquet-givers, where is the fourth?’ He has remained in the realm of the dark mother, caught by the wolfish greed of the unconscious, which is unwilling to let anything escape from its magic circle save at the cost of a sacrifice.”

I did not ever read this before today and yet we can see the three and one explained psychologically. Three are set free and one remains behind with the “dark mother” which again nags at us with the idea of a female killer. Someone had brought up that the killer seemed to choose locales, streets and roads with nature themes: Oakland, Oakshire, Greenfield, Woodward, Maple, Big Beaver, Gill, Forest Drive and so on. I brought up the possibility that perhaps the killer fancies himself a predator in the wilderness and may be a hunting enthusiast. Here is what Jung writes regarding psychological symbolism:

“The hunter or old magician and the witch correspond to the negative parental images in the magic world of the unconscious. The hunter first appears in the story as a black raven. He has stolen away the princess and holds her prisoner. She describes him as ‘the devil.’ But it is exceedingly odd that he himself is locked up in the one forbidden room of the castle and fixed to the wall with three nails, as though crucified. He is imprisoned, like all jailers, in his own prison, and bound like all who curse….The crucifixion evidently betokens a state of agonizing bondage and suspension, fit punishment for one foolhardy enough to venture like a Prometheus into the orbit of the opposing principle. This was what the raven, who is identical to the hunter, did when he ravished a precious soul from the upper world of light; and so, as a punishment, he is nailed to the wall in that upper world….In our fairytale, the peculiar instrument of the magic spell is the triad of nails. Who it was that made the raven captive is not told in the tale, but it sounds as if a spell had been laid upon him in the triune name.”

I'm not going to comment on this angle any further. I don't want to tell anyone how to think on this. You may discard completely if you wish. But it's somewhat eerie, is it not?

Omori
03-07-2011, 12:12 AM
The conclusion then is that the killer is not a pedophile. The killer took two boys and two girls to represent both unity and balance as well as perfect innocence. S/he then destroys this unity and balance by setting one off from the other three. Justice is represented by a scale or balance so by setting one off and upsetting the balance, justice or unity would never be realized. The killer will only allow it if the world makes the proper sacrifice—whatever that is.

Another 3 and 1 pattern that cannot be denied once one notices it, is that starting in the winter of ’76, the killer took Jill Robison. After the New Year of that same winter, he took Kristine Mihelich. These abductions occurred in December and January. The killer was on a roll and so the next victim should have vanished by February but instead that month was skipped and Tim King vanished in March. Why was February skipped? Because Mark Stebbins had been abducted in February the year before. That month was already taken. Does this sound like a pedophile just trying to get his rocks off? The killer was very mindful of the months he was killing. As I mentioned, Kristine was taken earliest in the month and kept the longest and Jill was taken latest in the month and kept the shortest. What more proof do we need that the killer had an aversion to overlapping into another month? Would a pedophile care about something like that? No. This person was not a pedophile. This person was abducting children as some type of sacrifice. The sodomizing of the two boys may have been ritualistic or could have been done in hopes of making people think a pedophile had done the deed. For some reason, he couldn’t bring him/herself to molest the girls.

Still not convinced? In astrology, there is there are what are known as decans. When a zodiacal constellation such as Libra or Virgo or Cancer rises, the priests of the temples would watch for certain non-zodiacal constellations or asterisms (a smaller grouping of stars within a larger constellation) to appear every 10 days—hence the term “decan.” So each zodiacal constellation is attended by three decan constellations that rise ten days apart.

· Jill Robinson vanished on December 22, that’s the very day Capricorn commences and the first decan of Capricorn rises—Sagitta the arrow (not Sagittarius the archer). He is depicted as in the acting of drawing his bow and Jill was found shot in the face.
· Kristine Mihelich vanished on January 2, that’s the very day the second decan of Capricorn rises—Aquila the eagle. Her body was recovered at the commencement of Aquarius but the first decan of Aquarius—Piscis Australis the Southern Fish—and the third decan of Capricorn—Delphinus the dolphin—are both visible.
· Mark Stebbins’s body was recovered on February 19, which ended Aquarius but which is also listed as the commencement of Pisces and on that very day, the first decan of Pisces rises—an asterism called The Band which binds the two fish of Pisces together.
· Tim King vanished on March 16, during the third decan of Pisces—Andromeda. Andromeda in myth was chained to rock to be sacrificed to a sea monster. That monster was Cetus the whale. Likewise the band that holds the two fish of Pisces was joined to Cetus (making a triad again).
· The killer either saw him/herself as Cetus the monster who devours the sacrifice or as the one who offers the sacrifice to Cetus. The fish of Pisces are represented then as Mark and Tim and hence both were bound. Both were claimed by the killer in the form of sodomizing the boys with an object.
· The symbolism is that fish represent the redeemed multitudes and the goat is traditionally the animal sacrificed for atonement of sins—what is known as the scapegoat. Capricorn is half-fish and half-goat which is shown collapsing and dying in the front goat half but full of vigor in the back fish half. It represents “the goat of the atonement slain for the redeemed.”


http://philologos.org/__eb-tws/images/17sagitta.gif

“This strange goat-fish, dying in its head, but living in its afterpart--falling as an eagle pierced and wounded by the arrow of death, but springing up from the dark waves with the matchless vigour and beauty of the dolphin--sinking under sin's condemnation, but rising again as sin's conqueror--developing new life out of death, and hearlding a new springtime out of December's long drear nights--was framed by no blind chance of man. The story which it tells is the old, old story on which hangs the only availing hope that ever came, or ever can come, to Adam's race. To what it signifies we are for ever shut up as the only saving faith. In that dying Seed of the woman we must see our sin-bearer and the atonement for our guilt, or die ourselves unpardoned and unsanctified. Through His death and bloodshedding we must find our life, or the true life, which alone is life, we never can have.” –Dr. Joseph Seiss, The Gospel in the Stars

Then we look at the names of the victims: Mark named after Mars the god of war, Jill a feminine form of Julius or “son of Jove,” Tim or Timothy or “honoring God” and Kristine which is a form of “Christ.” Jill was the sacrificial goat to atone for the masses and redeem them. She is a child of god but must die and be reborn in order for this to be realized because she has been sullied in this life by an unjust war (Vietnam) represented by Mark. Kristine is Christ the son who is pierced with an arrow and dies for our sins just as Aquila is shown dying after being pierced and then rises as Delphinus the dolphin springing up from the raging sea or matter—this defiled, bloody world—as the risen Christ who conquers sin and redeems the masses. Tim represents Andromeda whose purity is offered to War in order to honor God. He is the sacrificial lamb, a purified form of the scapegoat represented by Jill and so his body is left on Gill(ian) Road in March—named after Mars, the God of War to whom he is offered to honor God and redeem the masses.

Seen in this way, then, Allen may have been legit. The Babysitter may, in fact, have been someone who killed children in Vietnam and sought to redeem American society by offering four innocents to the war—a mission he saw as divine, as one written in the stars. Allen, in fact, means “rock.” Andromeda was chained to a rock when offered to Cetus as a sacrifice. Dr. Bruce Danto, who actually spoke with Allen over the phone, thought the man sounded somewhat Middle Eastern and hence Allen may have been Arabic or Persian. Strangely, in the 4th and 5th centuries, a large Iranian tribe emigrated to Europe called the Alans.

katydid23
03-07-2011, 12:45 AM
I don't know that the killer was into all of that symbolism. If he was, wouldn't he have left
some astological glyphs or some charts or some symbolism?

I have a strong connection to Astrology as I made a living as an astrologer for 25 years. But in this case, I don't know that I see the connection. I see a sick and twisted pedophile who got off on killing his young innocent victims. I do not believe that he/she waited for the next decan of a sign to kidnap his next victim. Decans are very rarely used in modern or contemporary astrology. They are of minor importance in the scheme of things.
As for the symbolic names, how could someone manage to abduct a child of a particular name in a particular order? That would have to mean they scoped out a particular child and watched and stalked them for long enough to find them off alone somewhere. How could that work if they needed to follow that specific decan date as well? I don't know, it just seems way too intricate and complicated. I could be wrong of course.

But I keep going back to the old saying, the simplest explanation is usually the truth.

peeples
03-07-2011, 12:50 AM
Interesting case..
did hoppyfrog ever come back with info after finding the name of that reporter and getting a hold of her. about the pastor and the cabin???

believe09
03-07-2011, 03:05 PM
I am not sure what is going on here, but please remember that TOS requires respectful posting. You dont have to agree with one another, but insults arent well tolerated here. Opinions are always welcome however. Please feel free to hit the alert button when a post bothers you and then sail on....as always, you can set another poster on Ignore via the PM function you have at the top of the page.

Omori
03-07-2011, 08:39 PM
I don't know that the killer was into all of that symbolism. If he was, wouldn't he have left
some astological glyphs or some charts or some symbolism?

Shouldn't Ted Bundy have written taunting letter so the cops? They're all different and on their own trip.


I have a strong connection to Astrology as I made a living as an astrologer for 25 years. But in this case, I don't know that I see the connection.

Am I to convince you? I gave my reasons, if you don't buy them then you don't buy them. Sorry about that.


I see a sick and twisted pedophile who got off on killing his young innocent victims.

You can see anything you want. It's a free country last I checked.


I do not believe that he/she waited for the next decan of a sign to kidnap his next victim. Decans are very rarely used in modern or contemporary astrology. They are of minor importance in the scheme of things.

Ok, so you don't buy it. Fine.


As for the symbolic names, how could someone manage to abduct a child of a particular name in a particular order? That would have to mean they scoped out a particular child and watched and stalked them for long enough to find them off alone somewhere. How could that work if they needed to follow that specific decan date as well?

It's called stalking <modsnip>

I don't know, it just seems way too intricate and complicated. I could be wrong of course.

Any of us could be wrong. ANY of us.


But I keep going back to the old saying, the simplest explanation is usually the truth.

Usually.

believe09
03-10-2011, 12:50 PM
Please continue the discussion here:
"The Babysitter" Oakland County Michigan - Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community