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View Full Version : NY NY - Hell's Kitchen NYC - Female 337UFNY, 15-21, Buried under Concrete Slab - Feb'03



shadowangel
01-27-2006, 09:45 PM
"Midtown Jane Doe"

From the Doe Network---


The victim was discovered on February 10, 2003 in Manhattan,




New York City, New York

She was a victim of homicide by strangulation
Skeletal Remains
The time of death occured sometime after 1988



Vital Statistics






Estimated age: 15 - 21 years old. Several of her teeth and bones had not reached full maturity, suggesting she was between 17 and 19 years old.
Approximate Height and Weight: 5'2"
Distinguishing Characteristics: Light-colored hair. Petite build. She wore a size 32 A bra.
Dentals: Available. She had expensive dental work at one point in her life, but her teeth also had severe decay, suggesting she may have been from a family of means but may have fallen on hard times, perhaps getting hooked on drugs, living on the streets or working as a prostitute.
Clothing/Jewelry: She was wearing a gold-colored ring inscribed with the initials P McG. Other clues include a brassiere and remains of pantyhose and a standard 1966 Bulova watch.
Other: Probably of Irish descent. The victim may also have abused drugs, and been a prostitute - scraps of glittery clothing were also recovered at the scene
The victim's skeletal remains were found inside a cement coffin, hidden behind a boiler in the basement of a rundown building on West 46th Street in Hell's Kitchen. Construction workers using a sledgehammer in the building's basement discovered the remains February 10, 2003. Police say the building was used by prostitutes and that the basement could be reached from several points inside, as well as through a steel trap door in an adjacent parking lot.
The killer had bound her hands and feet with an extension cord and circled it around her neck, then wrapped her body in a patch of rust-colored carpet.
A 1968 coin was found near her body. An International Ladies Garment Workers tag of a type sewn into clothing in 1988 was recovered with the victim.
Some additional info....
The remains of a plastic bag later discovered to have held rat poison was also found near the body. The rat poison was not manufactured before 1979. A plastic toy soldier was also found near the body.

A hair was found on the rug which did not come from the victim, suggesting the killer was a white male.

Police researched every missing persons report the FBI had on file with the initials "P McG" but were able to eliminate all 11 who matched. They then compiled a list of of over 500 women who had been arrested in the US with those initials, but were able to rule out all but five. (I don't know about these remaining five).

The forensic anthropologist who developed the measurements on this girl actually came up with a height range of 4'10" to 5' 4".

Police checked the serial number on the watch, but were not able to develop any clues.

Thoughts..
This area of "Hell's Kitchen" was very rough at the time of this young woman's death. 1988 saw NYC set a new record for homocides, many of them drug-related. Today, the area has been cleaned up significantly. 301 W 46th St now houses small businesses, among them a video store. The basement is used for a large refrigerator storage unit belonging to the restaurant next door.
Workers were clearing the basement in order to build that very unit when "Midtown Jane Doe" was discovered by a worker breaking a concrete slab for removal.

The slab
The slab was roughly 6 feet by 5 feet, and about a foot deep. This is highly significant, I believe...I looked into this, and discovered that in order to build a "coffin' this large, it would require approximately 45 bags of ready-mix concrete weighing 80 pounds each! (Confirmed by my friendly local Lowe's associate). This much concrete would be extremely difficult to pour by hand, and would require a mixing machine or delivery. I have tried to research any construction taking place in the area at the time, but the building permit website is so convoluted it may take a personal visit to obtain any answers.

NYPD would not reveal if the items (the toy soldier, the rat poison bag) were located with the victim or were just on the floor at the time the concrete was poured.

The jewelry
I can find no description of the Bulova watch. The Accutron, the world's first all-electronic wristwatch, was released in 1960 and a large marketing campaign began in 1966 for this very watch. I would be interested in knowing if the watch had a stretch-metal band or leather band. As I recalled my '80s high school history (and confirmed by my favorite fashion consultant) girls would wear men's watches pushed far up on their forearms (you know what I mean if you've seen the Eric Stoltz/Mary Stuart Masterson movie Some Kind of Wonderful).

What is considered the most important clue to this young woman's identity is the ring, variously described as either gold or gold-colored. ( A better photo of the ring can be found on the AMW link below). The ring was found on the pinky of the victim. Consider...The victim was about 5' to 5'2" (an average of the determined height range) and, wearing a size 32A bra, would most likely have been about 100 pounds or so. Therefore, this ring would have been incredibly small for her to have worn it as a pinky ring. It would most likely not have been a man's ring. The letters "P McG" may have been her initials, or may have held some other significance for her, such as a parents' initials. Or, may just have been something she liked. I googled the letters but didn't come up with anything that seemed important.

Police indicate they believe she was of Irish descent. This might seem to confirm the letters being her initials. Is it possible she was visiting from Europe, and thus the lack of a report here in the US?

America's Most Wanted link:
http://www.amw.com/features/feature_story_detail.cfm?id=145&mid=0

Yaya
01-28-2006, 09:29 AM
Shadowangel,

Just thinking... I wonder how rare it is to use Strontium Isotope Analysis in helping to identifying older remains in cold cases. This is something new I have been studying.

Because dentition forms during childhood, the strontium found in tooth enamel will generally reflect where that individual was born and raised. In contrast, bones continue to absorb strontium, and can reveal where that individual spent the last years of his or her life. If the two differ, researchers can suggest that a person spent their childhood in one locale and migrated (or were taken) to another region later in life.

A combination of both methods, DNA & Strontium Isotope Analysis, would narrow the search area for identifying bodies. Once an area of probable residence was concluded then the state could be saturated with information on the missing person.

I am going to research institutions using this method in archeological digs. They may have a database and need more bodies to add to it. If LE and these institutions could hook up on some of the identified bodies it would certainly enhance their database and someday the DNA and SIA databases could work together to help identify bodies more quickly.

Yaya
01-28-2006, 10:41 AM
I will email: Kelly J. Knudson at Arizona State University and Dr. Drew Coleman at University of North Carolina concerning Strontium Isotope Analysis today.

I'll post any replies I receive.

Yaya
01-30-2006, 07:55 PM
Shadowangel, I received responses to both my emails today with this information. I have also posted this information on the Boulder Jane Doe thread.

Response #1
It has the potential to work well. It gets more complicated for recent
remains because so much of our dietary intake doesn't come from local
sources.

Do you have a Strontium Isotope database at The University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill and if so, what regional areas are maintained in the database?
Not as such. We have many analyses, but they belong to the individual investigators who have paid for them. Most are published fairly rapidly, so they could be mined from the literature. The bulk of our work is from ancient European and Middle Eastern individuals. We have only recently been involved in modern forensic cases and those results are confidential.
Do you know of other Strontium Isotope databases being maintained at other Universities?
I do not. However, if I was looking for such a thing, I would begin with Doug Price at Wisconsin.
Are you excepting identified human data sources at this time to add to your database?
We're happy to do analyses.
Do you except private samples for Strontium Isotope Analysis?
Absolutely. We can make recommendations about what to analyze the more we know about the question to be answered.
What is the cost to have a private sample tested?
$75 a sample assuming we do all the work.

Please let me know if you need any additional information.
Response #2

Dear Ms. Smith,
Thanks for your interest in strontium isotope analysis. Unfortunately,
it is not always very helpful for modern populations. This is because
the strontium isotope signature in human bones and tooth enamel comes
from the food you eat. If you eat food from the region where you were
living, you will have the local geologic strontium isotope signature in
your bones and teeth. However, most people now eat foods that were grown
in a wide variety of geologic regions, so their strontium isotope
signatures are a mixture of many different regions and can't be used to
track mobility or movement between different geologic zones.

We don't have a strontium isotope database though we are looking into setting one up at ASU in the next couple of years. Labs charge $200-500 per sample for strontium isotope analysis. The geologic literature in the United States would be the place to look for regional strontium isotope signatures. I
work mostly in South America, so I don't know as much about the
signatures in the United States.

Hope this helps!

Yaya
01-31-2006, 01:40 AM
It seems this analysis would be more helpful for UID found before 1970. But it is something we should keep in mind for the older cases.

Sorry it couldn't be more helpful here.

strach304
01-31-2006, 08:55 AM
Shadowangel, I just wanted to make the suggestion on the ring since I didn't see it posted here or on the AMW site info that the ring is custom engraved with those initials and not only by jewelry stores but dept. stores started doing that some time ago just like mothers rings and what not. Also I think the initials could be for a boyfriend and not hers, just like the style with the watch you pointed out I remember the id bracelets and then rings shortly after having your bf's initials when you were going steady. The ring size also is not given whereas petite women tend to wear small size rings, I'm a size 5 so a seven or so may indicate it wasn't hers. From the AMW info I don't agree with the other variance of the initials because as a woman I wouldn't have it done in that order. Instead of say ex: Patricia McGowen reverse to Patrick for instance.

Jeana (DP)
01-31-2006, 11:14 AM
How can they possibly know she was strangled? :confused:

shadowangel
01-31-2006, 11:38 AM
This may have been an assumption on the part of the investigators, based in part upon the ligature around her neck and possible damage to the cartiliage of the neck. ??Excellent question, actually.

Yaya
01-31-2006, 12:41 PM
She probably had a fractured Hyoid bone. Due to its position, the hyoid bone is not usually easy to fracture in most situations. In cases of suspicious death, however, a fractured hyoid is a strong sign of strangulation.

Paradise
01-31-2006, 02:55 PM
I was just looking at the ring on AMW.com and I'm wondering if her initials could be P.G.Mc instead of P.Mc.G. I know sometimes when they do initials like that on bags and rings they put the last initial in the middle. Just a thought...

Paradise
01-31-2006, 02:59 PM
Can you disregard my last post as a brain fart? I just saw on the AMW site under the picture of the ring that they have P G Mc written under it.

Hollow
04-03-2006, 03:21 PM
This woman is a good match size and date-wise, but I don't know...thought I'd post it anyways.

http://www.charleyproject.org/cases/d/dinwiddie_dail.html

Paradise
04-03-2006, 06:14 PM
She only went missing in 1992, it sounds like LE thinks the UID was found in the 80's. Could be possible though.

Hollow
04-03-2006, 06:19 PM
Dail was also attending school in Georgia for a short time and then she returned to Virginia, I found this in a write-up by her father. I think the second picture on the Charley Project listing looks alot like the Jane Doe, though I don't know why she would have ended up in New York.

I wish I knew if she was seeing anyone, maybe with the initials on that ring.

Hollow
04-03-2006, 06:24 PM
http://www.greenvilleonline.com/news/2003/03/23/200303233381.htm

Masterj
04-04-2006, 11:06 AM
I really don't think it is Dail. As Paradise mentioned, investigators seemed to think the body had been there since the 80s, while Dail disappeared in the early 90s.

OT, but Dail's case is what drew me to this forum. I was looking at colleges in SC right around the time of her disappearance. I saw her face everywhere and her story has haunted me ever since.

Hollow
04-04-2006, 11:10 AM
I really don't think it is Dail. As Paradise mentioned, investigators seemed to think the body had been there since the 80s, while Dail disappeared in the early 90s.

OT, but Dail's case is what drew me to this forum. I was looking at colleges in SC right around the time of her disappearance. I saw her face everywhere and her story has haunted me ever since.

The investigators only said she had died after 1988. It could be her, though I don't know how she would have ended up in New York entombed in cement.

Hollow
04-04-2006, 11:19 AM
The investigators only said she had died after 1988. It could be her, though I don't know how she would have ended up in New York entombed in cement.
..after 1988 according to the clothing labels. The weird thing about this is that toy soldier, I called LE to find out if it was encased in with her or just at the scene and got my head bit off. LOL!!!

Dail is an extraordinarily beautiful woman, she seems to have really been on a good track, her family must be crushed.

Paradise
04-04-2006, 12:44 PM
I found this article on Dail...it's so sad.


The Chronicle Telegram - September 23, 2002
http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c222/Niffa2003/dail1.jpg

Masterj
04-04-2006, 01:07 PM
The investigators only said she had died after 1988. It could be her, though I don't know how she would have ended up in New York entombed in cement.
I would forward Dail's info to LE in charge of the unidentified body then. While I don't think it's her, doesn't mean that it isn't. Better to check it out, I say.

Hollow
04-04-2006, 01:47 PM
If anyone wants to notify LE of a possible match on this case, go right ahead, I have no wish to speak to those particular investigators again. LOL!!! Please post what they say in response.:)

Jeana (DP)
04-04-2006, 03:15 PM
..after 1988 according to the clothing labels. The weird thing about this is that toy soldier, I called LE to find out if it was encased in with her or just at the scene and got my head bit off. LOL!!!




I'm sorry that you had that experience with LE. There are good and bad in every profession. We appreciate you sleuthing this out for us all. (HUGS)

Hollow
04-04-2006, 05:32 PM
Thanks Jeanna :)

Couple things I find unusual about this Jane Doe, this was supposed to be an area (back then) that was used for drug trafficking and prostitution. How in the world did someone get so much cement in there and build this thing, get her body in there....and no one noticed this going on ??? Makes me think it was mob related, and being as they said she looked Irish and the McG on her ring....maybe Irish mob???

Another thing, why the toy soldier, were they saying she was a soldier ? Was whoever put her there a soldier and they were sort of burying themselves with her ??

Hollow
04-07-2006, 11:12 AM
Isn't the band U2 a very political Irish band ?? That's weird Dail went to see them and then I'm trying to make this Irish mob connection. Just thinking out loud.

Paradise
04-07-2006, 03:22 PM
I checked U2's touring schedule and the only time they were in or around NYC in 1988 was on 3/2. They weren't actually playing, they received the Grammy awards for "Album of the Year - The Joshua Tree" and "Best Rock Performance by a Duo or Group - I Still Haven't Found What I'm Looking For."

1/15/1992 for a Rock and Roll Hall Of Fame induction ceremony.

2/25/1992 they received the Grammy award for "Best Rock Group Performance - Achtung Baby" at Radio City Music Hall.

3/9/1992 - Concert in Uniondale, NY (it's about 20 miles from NYC)

3/18/1992 - Concert in East Rutherford, NJ

3/20/1992 - Concert in NYC at Madison Square Garden

Hollow
04-07-2006, 04:07 PM
she attended the concert in Columbia South Carolina, I wonder who the bouncer was that she stayed after to chat with and if they ever looked at him as being involved in her disappearance.

Paradise
04-07-2006, 09:06 PM
I wasn't talking about Dail, sorry I wasn't clear. I thought you were thinking that this uid girl might've been at a U2 concert.

Hollow
04-08-2006, 12:53 AM
I wonder where U2 played the night after playing in Columbia, South Carolina. I wonder if the bouncer worked for the arena or the band.

Paradise
04-09-2006, 09:56 PM
I think most arenas have their own bouncers that they use for special events.

Hollow
04-09-2006, 10:06 PM
I'd like to clarify, I misread the article that I had found online. Apparentely, after the concert, the friends all met at a bar called Jungle Jim's, that is where the bouncer was.

I did e-mail a journalist that is a friend of the Dinwiddie family, perhaps they will look into whether this is Dail or not. I was reading last night about the Lady's Garment Workers Union (this was one of the tags , clothing labels they found in with Jane Doe.) They are headquartered mostly in New York, they do tours for college students in the garment industry and give them free shirts and jackets. They manufacture clothing for other companies too. I still really cannot make any connection to Dail.

I am really interested in looking into the Dinwiddie case, for some reason this one's really got me.

Hollow
04-09-2006, 10:11 PM
This is the concert that Dail attended

http://www.u2tour.de/tour/show696.html

Paradise
04-11-2006, 03:29 PM
They played in Atlanta on 9/25 and in Miami on 10/3.

Hollow
06-12-2006, 11:23 AM
Just wondered, does anyone think that this Jane Doe could be Kathleen Durst, it actually looks very much like her. I've never seen her description posted on any missing sights so I don't know her height and weight. She was from New York, missing in 1982. Her maiden name was McCormack, is it possible the ring initials were McC. Just a thought.

http://www.charleyproject.org/cases/d/durst_kathleen.html

Hollow
06-12-2006, 11:27 AM
I also wonder if the Dursts actually own the building this Jane Doe was found in.

Hollow
06-12-2006, 11:58 AM
You have to understand also about this Jane Doe, the reason why they are pegging the mid-eighties as the time of her death is the rat poison bag. I personally called the Manhatten detectives on this case, they would not confirm if that bag was buried in with her , nor the toy soldier. So I suppose this is possible.

Also I think Durst would have had the means to have this much concrete delivered to this building, especially if his family owns the building, he could have actually ordered that floor closed so he would have time to construct this tomb. I wonder who owns the restaurant that is next door who uses the area where this body was found for refrigeration.

Why is there no description of Kathleen Durst ??

Also when Gilberte Najamy broke into Durst's house, she found a list of things he had been doing that week, in his handwriting, and he had purchased new boots. Maybe because his old boots were covered with concrete???

Angels_Not_Forgotten
06-12-2006, 01:33 PM
hmm, do you know what her middle name was? The ring said P McC, maybe for a middle name?

Hollow
06-13-2006, 12:50 AM
I don't know what Kathy Durst's first or middle name is (Kathleen may be her middle name, ya never know) but I did see that Doe Network added her height since the last time I looked and it says five feet five inches, so I guess this cannot be her unless the "approximate" height of 5'2" was really approximate due to the skeletonized condition of the body.

I thought for sure I had something here due to the location this body was found, I'm still looking into it, just to make sure. I want to know who owned that building in 1982.

Hollow
06-13-2006, 01:21 AM
Oddly enough, I don't know how it was when this body was placed here, I had read that there was a lively bar down in there and that prostitutes hung out down there, but looking up the address where she was found, it was mostly restaurants all around this building, and this map shows West 46th st. (she was found at 301 W. 46th st.) and 300 W. 46th st. was in the center part of W. 46th street which looks to be ( at least now ) a very well-to-do area, but I don't know the area much.

http://maps.google.com/maps?q=414%20West%2046th%20St,%20NY&hl=en

Hollow
06-13-2006, 02:14 AM
This link says she had to have been placed there after 1979.

http://www.nymissing.com/modules/news/article.php?storyid=27

Hollow
06-13-2006, 02:16 AM
This link says she had to have been placed there after 1979.

http://www.nymissing.com/modules/news/article.php?storyid=27
This listing also gives her approximated heighth at 4'10" to 5'4"

Angels_Not_Forgotten
06-13-2006, 09:48 AM
Hmmmm so height wise its a possibility although the appx tends to go tword a shorter female....Wasnt it a construction worker that found her? Could it have been a seedier part of town back then? hmmm....I wonder what her mothers name was as well. Maybe thats what the P stands for, im still stuck on the ring...

Masterj
06-13-2006, 10:14 AM
Hmmmm so height wise its a possibility although the appx tends to go tword a shorter female....Wasnt it a construction worker that found her? Could it have been a seedier part of town back then? hmmm....I wonder what her mothers name was as well. Maybe thats what the P stands for, im still stuck on the ring...
Hell's Kitchen is a MUCH nicer neighborhood now than it was in the 1980's when it was overrun with prostitutes and drug dealers.

Do we know where on 46th Street? I mean, which avenues the address is between? I am guessing between 8th and 9th. Do we know the name of the bar? I am very familiar with this neighborhood the way it is now.

Hollow
06-13-2006, 10:23 AM
She was found at 301 W. 46th st. It can't be Kathy Durst, I found an article last night that stated the height again as between 4'10" and 5'4", however it said the rat poison bag indicated that it was the mid to late eighties. I wish there was some way to confirm that the bag was in there with her.

Hollow
06-13-2006, 12:29 PM
Pardon me, it was the tag from her clothing that finally dated her burial, they said it had to be some time after 1988. So, it definately cannot be Kathy Durst. Sorry about that everybody.

Hollow
06-13-2006, 12:49 PM
New York Post
December 21, 2003

STUMPED BY TOMB MYSTERY; COPS CHASE DECADES OLD CLUES IN PROBE OF GRUESOME "JANE DOE" SLAY

The killer bound the young woman's hands and feet with an extension cord and circled it around her neck. The murderer then wrapped her body in a patch of rust-colored carpet.

Next,the killer carried her down a darkened stairway into the dank basement of a neglected Hell's Kitchen building that was home to squatters, pimps, prostitutes, drug addicts and a popular gay nightclub.

The murderer dropped his burden in a far corner of the basement, next to an aging coal furnace, then mixed enough cement to build a foot-high slab roughly 6 feet wide and 5 feet long.

There, for up to 15 years, the body remained, under the concrete slab, in the basement of 301 W. 46th st, until a construction worker smashed through a section of the tomb with a sledgehammer Febuary 10 and discovered a human skull.

"He flagged down a beat cop, and we got the call" said Gerard Gardiner, a NYPD homicide detective who is now charged with the Jane Doe case.

"At this point we believe she was a young, middle-class woman who probably hopped on a bus to New York full of dreams, but who ended up on the streets" Gardiner said.......

Hollow
06-13-2006, 12:59 PM
more from article....


Police say the building was used by prostitutes and that the basement could be reached from several points inside, as well as through a steel trap door in an adjacent parking lot that was unlocked during THE POST'S visit last week.

An inventory of items recovered at the scene included a dime minted in 1968, a Bulova watch, a gold signet ring imprinted with the initials " PMcG" , a size 32A bra, pantyhose, seven buttons, part of a bag of rat poison, a clothing label and a plastic toy soldier.

Those clues have led the probe of case # 389- a rare one involving the discovery of a nearly full skeleton- through several twists over the last 10 months.

At first Gardiner placed the earliest date of the killing at 1968 because of the dime. A Bulova watch made in 1966 also seemed to lock the time frame.

By April, that date was moved forward after detectives pieced together a bag of Talon-G rat poison, which was not available until 1979. But a tattered Garment Workers Union label not used until December 1987 revised the time frame once again.......

hoping4truth
06-13-2006, 01:07 PM
Just a thought about the ring:

I'm engaged and doing all the wedding planning junk. :)
Anyway, A really popular trend right now is to have monograms in your wedding: Invitations, Cake topper etc;

My point is, is it possible that the P & G are two different names, and the Mc is the last name?

Lets say as an example of a married couple would be: Patty and Gilbert McEllen

Or maybe Patrick and Gloria McEllen

P Mc G

Just another way to look at the intitals on the ring. I know that they do that on towels and stuff, too.

Hollow
06-13-2006, 01:09 PM
more from article...

That year, the city set a record for murder as drug-fueled slayings pushed the number of homicides to an unheard of 1,896.

Gardiner had hoped that the serial number on the watch might identify a buyer, but he struck out there.

But in February, he learned the digits were randomly assigned for insurance purposes and not linked to the watchmakers customers.

A month later the detective moved on to the ring on the victim's pinky.

Gardiner asked the FBI for anyone reported missing in the United States with a birth date after 1958 and the initials "PMcG", the initials inscribed on the ring. He eliminated all 11 names because of their race, age or other factors.

Last April, detectives plowed through a list of 500 women arrested nationwide with the same initials. All but five have been ruled out.

But there's always a chance the ring bears the initials of someone other than its wearer.

Hollow
06-13-2006, 01:14 PM
Hoping, it does actual appear that way to me, as if Mc is written as the last name initials. It also could be something like Patricia Gail McAllen.

Stella
06-14-2006, 12:52 AM
Hollow, you made an excellent point about the initials on the ring. I sometimes wear my grandmother's signet ring with initials different than my own. If the victim's ring is a family heirloom, they may never find out who she is.

Hollow
06-14-2006, 01:58 AM
Besides the ring, there isn't much about this particular Jane Doe that stands out, so you may be right. I did wonder in that article why it says "almost a complete skeleton" as if something was missing.

Hollow
06-14-2006, 02:00 AM
Besides the ring, there isn't much about this particular Jane Doe that stands out, so you may be right. I did wonder in that article why it says "almost a complete skeleton" as if something was missing.
Maybe the guy with the sledgehammer damaged her bones somehow.

annemc2
06-18-2006, 01:02 AM
For those who missed it, there was a segment on AMW tonight (6/17) that had lots of good info, including a sketch of Jane Doe.

http://www.amw.com/features/feature_story_detail.cfm?id=145

Hollow
07-03-2006, 02:15 AM
What about this woman, she's certainly small enough, within the right time frame and area. Her age is definately off, but ya never know.

www.doenetwork.us/cases/1491dfnj.html (http://www.doenetwork.us/cases/1491dfnj.html)

Hollow
07-03-2006, 02:21 AM
I also found an article stating that DePunte was wearing blue jeans, and her sister said she believes she may have been wearing a white blouse, and "probably" had on high heels as she always wore them to make herself appear taller. Her family stated she was a heavy drinker.

docwho3
07-04-2006, 03:34 AM
Doing an online search on the inits I found many results although none may actually have anything to do with the case for all I know: I found that there is
Denise Mincey-Mills B.B.A. '80
Principal, PMCG (Pope Mincey Consulting Group)
Business/Industry: Consulting
http://www6.miami.edu/alumni/umaa/pc/membership.asp


http://www.rentacoder.com/RentACoder/SoftwareBuyers/showBuyerInfo.asp?lngAuthorId=1218289

Through a web search I found that somone uses those initials (actually I found other examples also of people using those inits) and thought it might be interesting so I put a link here.


I also came across the name Patrick McGrail in an online doc file using the inits PMcG, I suppose many names may use those inits:
". . . PMcG stated that general consent had been given in principle that a LIFT type model applicable to Scottish circumstances should be explored further. . . ."
http://www.paymodernisation.scot.nhs.uk/gms/premises/notes/premises_notes_250505.doc

smile22
07-04-2006, 09:08 AM
was her clothing checked out further i know they found a tag which gave some clues as to where it was manufactured or a date or something but did they or were they able to figure out where the clothing was sent to like did only certen retailers got those clothes or were they mass merchandised to a lot of retailers

KJERVIS
07-04-2006, 12:16 PM
was her clothing checked out further i know they found a tag which gave some clues as to where it was manufactured or a date or something but did they or were they able to figure out where the clothing was sent to like did only certen retailers got those clothes or were they mass merchandised to a lot of retailersThe ILGW was a union of female garment workers. These tags were sewn into clothing manufactured in factories where this union was active. It apparently merged with another garmet union in 1995. From my knowledge of unions (which is very little), being part of this union would be a source of pride for the factory. It would make women want to work there knowing they were protected by the union. I did find that ILGW was active in both the US and Canada. Could it be that this young lady was Canadian and this is why we cant seem to find much on her? This could also be a link to her supposed Irish heritage. Lots of Irish immigrants came through Canada. Downside to this theory is that ILGW birthplace was in NYC and thus having this sewn into her clothing was more than likely because of location. Oh well.

My source for ILGW: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Ladies'_Garment_Workers'_Union (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Ladies%27_Garment_Workers%27_Union)
and
http://rmc.library.cornell.edu/EAD/htmldocs/KCL05780.html

edit: fixed hyperlink

smile22
07-04-2006, 04:23 PM
does anyone have the email of the pd who is in charge of her case id like to send over some questions and hopefully get some answers

Richard
08-02-2006, 11:24 AM
Unidentified White Female
The victim was discovered on February 10, 2003 in Manhattan, New York City, New York
She was a victim of homicide by strangulation
Skeletal Remains
The time of death occured sometime after 1988

Vital Statistics
Estimated age: 15 - 21 years old. Several of her teeth and bones had not reached full maturity, suggesting she was between 17 and 19 years old.
Approximate Height and Weight: 5'2"
Distinguishing Characteristics: Light-colored hair, possibly red or reddish. Petite build. She wore a size 32 A bra.

Dentals: Available. She had expensive dental work at one point in her life, but her teeth also had severe decay, suggesting she may have been from a family of means but may have fallen on hard times, perhaps getting hooked on drugs, living on the streets or working as a prostitute.

Clothing/Jewelry: She was wearing a gold-colored signet ring inscribed with the initials P McG. Other clues include a brassiere and remains of pantyhose and a standard 1966 Bulova watch.

Other: Possibly of Irish descent. The victim may also have abused drugs, and been a prostitute - scraps of glittery clothing were also recovered at the scene.

Case History

The victim's skeletal remains had been wrapped in a rug and concealed under a layer of relatively fresh concrete, which itself was hidden behind an old coal-burning furnace in the basement of a rundown, mostly abandoned apartment building on West 46th Street in Hell's Kitchen on Manhattan's West Side.

Construction workers using a sledgehammer in the building's basement discovered the remains February 10, 2003.

Police say the building was used by prostitutes and that the basement could be reached from several points inside, as well as through a steel trap door in an adjacent parking lot.

The killer had bound her hands and feet with an extension cord and circled it around her neck, then wrapped her body in a patch of rust-colored carpet.
A 1968 coin was found near her body. An International Ladies Garment Workers tag of a type sewn into clothing in 1988 was recovered with the victim and a plastic toy soldier that could not be exactly dated.

Investigators
If you have any information about this case please contact:
New York City Police
Midtown North Detective Squad
Detective James Gardner
212-473-2042

You may remain anonymous when submitting information.
Agency Case Number: 389
NCIC Number: U-900004399
Please refer to this number when contacting any agency with information regarding this case.

Source Information:
Newsday
New York Post
America's Most Wanted
Doenetwork.org case file 337UFNY

Richard
08-02-2006, 11:34 AM
A Bone Cold Case
8/13/2004

"Bone Cases"--police say they're the toughest cases to crack. An old murder with few clues. The killer is long gone and the victim's identity lies hidden in cryptic clues.

Police are left with a skeleton and whatever clues they can glean from the crime scene. Investigators don't have the luxury of immediately knowing if the victim had any distinguishing marks such as scars or tattoos. They often don't even know the victim's gender until forensic analysis is done.

Old murders, recently uncovered, that occured years or even decades ago are difficult to solve just by the nature of these circumstances.The New York Police Department took on such a case in February 2003 when a skeleton was found buried in the basement of an apartment building, wrapped in a roll of carpet. Faced with numerous dead-ends, detectives took the only avenue they could. They worked hand-in-hand with forensic scientists at the crime scene to piece together the victim's history. Numerous clues that would often be disregarded by an untrained eye, were brought to light by painstaking scientific research.

Police assume she was a runaway who traveled to New York.
Distinct Clues Could Catch a Killer

A gold-plated ring was found on the victim's right pinky and police say the letters may spell out her initials.

Dental Analysis
From looking at the victim's teeth, forensic scientists determined that she had received good dental care through her teenage years. They assume she lived a middle to upper class lifestyle because a lot of money went into her dental work. They also say she underwent a change in socio-economic status because several of her teeth had started to decay by the time she was killed. From that, police assume she was a runaway who traveled to New York.

The Time of the Crime?
A U.S. dime made in 1969 was found with the body so police knew she wasn't killed before then. Various pieces of plastic were also found and pieced together. Forensics determined it was a plastic bag used to hold a brand of rat poison called Talon. The manufacturers told police that brand wasn't produced until 1979. That still left a window of more than 20 years. Two seals were found with the body, in bad condition but still readable under a microscope. The labels were for the Lady Garment Workers Union. The union told police to look for digits and letters on the labels. From that coding, they were able to positively conclude that the murder couldn't have taken place before December 1987.

The Gold Ring
Police found a gold-plated signet ring on the victim's ring pinky. It had the letters PMCG written on the face. Were those the victim's initials? Detective Gardiner of the NYPD spent weeks on the phone with police agencies across the U.S. He determined there were over 500 missing persons that fit the victim's description with a first name beginning with "P" and a last name beginning with "McG." Det. Gardiner had no luck identifying the victim but he hadn't hit a dead-end yet.Jewelry experts police talked to said the initials could also be read this way: a first name beginning with "P," a middle initial of "G" and a last name beginning with "Mc". That gave Det. Gardiner a whole new set of names.

The Toy Soldier
A small plastic toy soldier was found with the victim. What kind of personal significance did it hold for the victim?

Link:
http://www.amw.com/features/feature_story_detail.cfm?id=145

Masterj
08-03-2006, 01:23 PM
There is already a thread on this in here.

ihadcabinfever
12-03-2006, 02:13 AM
http://www.nymissing.com/modules/news/article.php?storyid=27

Estimated Age : 15 - 21 yrs.
Race: Caucasian
Estimated Height: 4'10" - 5'4"
Estimated Weight: Petite
Hair Color: unknown
Eye Color: unknown
Date of Death: sometime after 1979
Cause of Death: Homicide
Fingerprints: unknown
DNA: unknown

Dentals: She had expensive dental work at one point in her life, but her teeth also had severe decay.

Clothing Description: gold-colored ring inscribed with the initials P McG; brassiere,size 32 A; remains of pantyhose; standard 1966 Bulova watch




http://www.colliersheriff.org/news/missing/detail.asp?key=40
Missing Person - Patricia McGill (Missing Adult)
Missing Since: 5/15/1983 Case # 83-22126
Last Seen: Naples, Florida ( Collier County)
Race: W Sex: F Age at disappearance: 42
Hair: Red/Brown Eyes: Hazel HGT: 506 WGT: 150
Last Address: 11th Street SW
Scars, Marks & Tattoos: Silver ring with an emerald
Occupation: Secretary
Details:

Patricia was last seen on 05/15/1983(age 42) at a Site gas station in the northern part of Collier County on US 41. Her car was located in Golden Gate City where she had rented a room with all of her personal belonging's left behind. No one has seen or heard from her since that time.

Anyone with information on the whereabouts' of Patricia is ask to contact the Collier County Sheriff's Office.

SewingDeb
12-03-2006, 08:30 AM
There is some resemblance but there is a huge age and size discrepancy.

2sisters
12-03-2006, 10:07 AM
I think they are similar but I watched a TV show about the PMcg girl and they said without a doubt her murder tool place between 1967? and 1970 something b/c of a rat ploison found around her body, i am sketchy on it.ETA- this talks about the time period.
"The victim's skeletal remains were found inside a cement coffin, hidden behind a boiler in the basement of a rundown building on West 46th Street in Hell's Kitchen. Construction workers using a sledgehammer in the building's basement discovered the remains February 10, 2003. A 1968 coin was found near her body, but detectives believe she was not killed before 1979 because traces of a rat poison not manufactured before that year also were found at the scene.
Her dental health suggests she may have been from a family of means but may have fallen on hard times, perhaps getting hooked on drugs, living on the streets or working as a prostitute. "

Beyond Belief
12-03-2006, 10:27 AM
None of the possessions sound right for a girl that age. I am wondering if those things belonged to maybe her mother. Its strange to hold on to a watch and ring if your in need. i would think they would have been pawned. I am just thinking maybe they belonged to her mother, who may have passed away leaving her homeless.

Richard
12-03-2006, 10:48 AM
Here is a recent Doenetwork Case File and Link:

--------------------------------
Unidentified White Female

The victim was discovered on February 10, 2003 in Manhattan, New York City, New York
She was a victim of homicide by strangulation
Skeletal Remains
The time of death occured sometime after 1988

Vital Statistics

Estimated age: 15 - 21 years old. Several of her teeth and bones had not reached full maturity, suggesting she was between 17 and 19 years old.
Approximate Height and Weight: 5'2"
Distinguishing Characteristics: Light-colored hair, possibly red or reddish. Petite build. She wore a size 32 A bra.
Dentals: Available. She had expensive dental work at one point in her life, but her teeth also had severe decay, suggesting she may have been from a family of means but may have fallen on hard times, perhaps getting hooked on drugs, living on the streets or working as a prostitute.
Clothing/Jewelry: She was wearing a gold-colored signet ring inscribed with the initials P McG. Other clues include a brassiere and remains of pantyhose and a standard 1966 Bulova watch.
Other: Possibly of Irish descent. The victim may also have abused drugs, and been a prostitute - scraps of glittery clothing were also recovered at the scene.

See link for photo of Signet Ring, Tag in Clothing, and Composite sketch of victim.

Case History
The victim's skeletal remains had been wrapped in a rug and concealed under a layer of relatively fresh concrete, which itself was hidden behind an old coal-burning furnace in the basement of a rundown, mostly abandoned apartment building on West 46th Street in Hell's Kitchen on Manhattan's West Side.

Construction workers using a sledgehammer in the building's basement discovered the remains February 10, 2003.

Police say the building was used by prostitutes and that the basement could be reached from several points inside, as well as through a steel trap door in an adjacent parking lot.

The killer had bound her hands and feet with an extension cord and circled it around her neck, then wrapped her body in a patch of rust-colored carpet.

A 1968 coin was found near her body. An International Ladies Garment Workers tag of a type sewn into clothing in 1988 was recovered with the victim and a plastic toy soldier that could not be exactly dated.

Investigators
If you have any information about this case please contact:
New York City Police
Midtown North Detective Squad
Detective James Gardner
212-473-2042

You may remain anonymous when submitting information.

Agency Case Number: 389
NCIC Number: U-900004399
Please refer to this number when contacting any agency with information regarding this case.

Source Information:
Newsday
New York Post
America's Most Wanted
The Doe Network: Case File 337UFNY


LINK:
http://www.doenetwork.us/cases/337ufny.html

Richard
12-03-2006, 10:58 AM
Here is the Doenetwork file on Patricia. Note that she was reported to be wearing a Silver Ring with an emerald when she disappeared. It is more likely that she was murdered somewhere in Florida, than in New York. Is it possible, however, that she might have had a signet ring that was given at some point to the Hell's Kitchen Jane Doe?

Investigators believe that the Jane Doe was killed some time after 1988 - 5 years after Patricia's disappearance. Patricia would have been over 47 years old at the time of the Jane Doe's death.
-----------------------------------
Patricia McGill
Missing since May 15, 1983 from Naples, Collier County, Florida
Classification: Missing

Vital Statistics
Date Of Birth: June 6, 1941
Age at Time of Disappearance: 42 years old
Height and Weight at Time of Disappearance: 5'6"; 150 lbs.
Distinguishing Characteristics: White female. Red/brown hair; hazel eyes.
Jewelry: Silver ring with an emerald

Circumstances of Disappearance
Patricia was last seen on May 15, 1983 at a Site gas station in the northern part of Collier County on US 41. Her car was located in Golden Gate City where she had rented a room with all of her personal belonging's left behind. No one has seen or heard from her since that time.

Investigators
If you have any information concerning this case, please contact:
Collier County Sheriff's Office 941-793-9300

Agency Case Number: 83-22126

Source Information:
Collier County Sheriff's Office
The Doe Network: Case File 1752DFFL


LINK:
http://www.doenetwork.us/cases/1752dffl.html

outofthedark
12-03-2006, 07:05 PM
Why would Nymissing.com report Jane Doe as having died after 1979, when found evidence clearly states after 1988 because of a piece of product packaging dated 1988+ being found with her remains

ihadcabinfever
12-03-2006, 07:42 PM
Here is the Doenetwork file on Patricia. Note that she was reported to be wearing a Silver Ring with an emerald when she disappeared. It is more likely that she was murdered somewhere in Florida, than in New York. Is it possible, however, that she might have had a signet ring that was given at some point to the Hell's Kitchen Jane Doe?

Investigators believe that the Jane Doe was killed some time after 1988 - 5 years after Patricia's disappearance. Patricia would have been over 47 years old at the time of the Jane Doe's death.
-----------------------------------
Patricia McGill
Missing since May 15, 1983 from Naples, Collier County, Florida
Classification: Missing

Vital Statistics
Date Of Birth: June 6, 1941
Age at Time of Disappearance: 42 years old
Height and Weight at Time of Disappearance: 5'6"; 150 lbs.
Distinguishing Characteristics: White female. Red/brown hair; hazel eyes.
Jewelry: Silver ring with an emerald

Circumstances of Disappearance
Patricia was last seen on May 15, 1983 at a Site gas station in the northern part of Collier County on US 41. Her car was located in Golden Gate City where she had rented a room with all of her personal belonging's left behind. No one has seen or heard from her since that time.

Investigators
If you have any information concerning this case, please contact:
Collier County Sheriff's Office 941-793-9300

Agency Case Number: 83-22126

Source Information:
Collier County Sheriff's Office
The Doe Network: Case File 1752DFFL


LINK:
http://www.doenetwork.us/cases/1752dffl.html

Note that she was reported to be wearing a Silver Ring with an emerald.
This was probably the most expensive piece of jewelry. I wonder if it was her at all at the motel.

I wonder who reported her missing? Weird, last seen at the gas station ? then her car is found where she was staying with all her belongings left behind.
A secretary staying at a motel? hmmm.... Also says her birthday is June an Emarald is May's birthstone.Just thought I'd throw that in there.



Patricia was last seen on 05/15/1983(age 42) at a Site gas station in the northern part of Collier County on US 41. Her car was located in Golden Gate City where she had rented a room with all of her personal belonging's left behind. No one has seen or heard from her since that time

ihadcabinfever
12-03-2006, 07:48 PM
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_people_by_name:_Mcg-Mcz

some more names

McGafney - Co. Cavan
McGargan - Co. Cavan
McGarrahan - Co. Fermanagh
McGarry - Co. Mayo
McGauran - Co. Cavan
McGavan - Cos. Longford & Mayo
McGeoghegan - Co. Westmeath
McGeraghty - Cos. Mayo & Sligo
McGettigan - Co. Donegal
McGibbon - Co. Mayo
McGilbride - Co. Donegal
McGilduff - Co. Galway
McGilduist - Co. Longford
McGilfoye - Co. Tipperary
McGillicuddy - Co. Kerry
McGilligan - Cos. Derry & Longford
McGillikelly - Co. Galway
McGilmartin - Co. Leitrim
McGilmichael - Co. Monaghan
McGilmore - Co. Down
McGilpatrick - Co. Laois
McGilroy - Co. Monaghan
McGinnis - Co. Down
McGinty - Co. Donegal
McGloin - Co. Leitrim
McGolrick - Co. Tyrone
McGonigal - Co. Donegal
McGourty - Co. Leitrim
McGowan - Cos. Donegal, Down & Leitrim
McGrane - Co. Meath
McGreal - Co. Mayo
McGreevy - Co. Antrim
McGuire - Co. Fermanagh

kylie
12-03-2006, 07:53 PM
Both Patricia and the Jane Doe were killed by the same person...first Patricia was killed and her things taken then somehow the killer befriended the Jane Doe and gave her the ring before killing her........what do you think? A serial killer.............

ihadcabinfever
12-03-2006, 08:16 PM
http://64.233.187.104/search?q=cache:CR0k3js7xyUJ:www.amw.com/features/feature_story_detail.cfm%3Fid%3D145+initials+PMcG&hl=en&gl=us&ct=clnk&cd=3

The Gold Ring

Police found a gold-plated signet ring on the victim's ring pinky. It had the letters PMCG written on the face. Were those the victim's initials? Detective Gardiner of the NYPD spent weeks on the phone with police agencies across the U.S.

He determined there were over 500 missing persons that fit the victim's description with a first name beginning with "P" and a last name beginning with "McG." Det. Gardiner had no luck identifying the victim but he hadn't hit a dead-end yet.

Jewelry experts police talked to said the initials could also be read this way: a first name beginning with "P," a middle initial of "G" and a last name beginning with "Mc". That gave Det. Gardiner a whole new set of names.

The Toy Soldier

A small plastic toy soldier was found with the victim. What kind of personal significance did it hold for the victim

My mother had ordered sweaters for Christmas with monogramed initials on them , She had the last name inital in the middle. I still wouldnt wear it for obviuos reasons. :laugh: (FGA) my friend wore it lolol

ihadcabinfever
12-03-2006, 08:24 PM
or the initial could be P first name Mc middle name G last name.

Something like Patricia Mcwhatever

Thats definatley a puzzle.

Beyond Belief
12-03-2006, 08:32 PM
Do they make school rings like that? Could that initial ring be a sorority or club ring of some kind?

kylie
12-03-2006, 08:35 PM
The soldier could have been placed there by the killer....it may have significance for the killer, not the victim

HollywoodBound
12-03-2006, 08:45 PM
It's interesting the unidentified victim has a '66 watch and a '68 coin near her body. There is a bra listed and the remains of pantyhose, and then a tag recovered with the body, it doesn't say what the tag was on, and no other clothing is listed. I find it odd the girl would have such an old watch, and then just happen to have a coin from around the same time. A possibilty is the body has been somewhere near the area it was found in since around '68 and then maybe moved to a different area and concrete poured over. At that time a bra was near the remains, and a toy soldier which also is not something that would appear to belong to this victim. Perhaps these items were present for other reasons when the concrete is poured. All of this would be virtually impossible if the extension cord can be dated to the 80's. Also, I wonder if they can get an approximate date on the toy soldier. I wonder if it's from the 60's?

ihadcabinfever
12-03-2006, 09:26 PM
http://missing-and-unidentified.org/midtown_jane_doe.htm

Much has been discussed and concluded from the victims teeth and those conclusions are very important:
At one point in her life, she had expensive dental work done. A lot of money was spent on her teeth and yet her teeth also had severe decay by the time of her death. It suggests that she was from a middle to upperclass family that had hit on hard times, perhaps she herself fell into some sort of trouble. Because of the change in her teeth, the possibility that she was a runaway who came to New York most certainly cannot be discounted.
The possibility that she was adopted and did not like where she was living cannot be ruled out.

Age is off but pregnancy can weaken teeth

http://www.doenetwork.us/cases/1177dfbel.html

Beyond Belief
12-03-2006, 09:45 PM
Children raised on welfare always had wonderful dental care because it was free. I don't think you can place her economic class by the dental care unless of course she had braces. I don't think that was covered.

ihadcabinfever
12-03-2006, 10:18 PM
The possibility that she was adopted and did not like where she was living cannot be ruled out.


Huh. I just remembered something. I grew up on the NJ side of Greenwood
Lake . I know the NY side in the town of Greenwood Lake had all those kids come over from Ireland in the summer. Heres the link.
http://www.projectchildrenni.com/welcome_to_america.htm

Maybe the girl stayed here in the U.S. I know alot of those teenagers ended up staying one they got here. My sister even dated one .So did my neighbor.
This was 83' 84ish.

http://www.projectchildrenni.com/welcome.htm

Project Children is an American-Northern Ireland partnership dedicated to showing Protestant and Catholic kids that they have nothing to fear from each other and much to gain. The programme started in 1975 with six children from Belfast, three from one community and three from the other. The kids spent that summer in America, getting to know each other in a small New York town. Now Project Children places more than 600 children from Northern Ireland with host families across America each summer. And several years ago we expanded to include university students by offering summer internships on Capitol Hill. A few months later, a new venture with Habitat for Humanity and local trade unions pulled in vocational students and gave them on-the-job experience building homes in America. Project Children also sponsors programmes in Northern Ireland that bring together Protestant and Catholic children and their families. Although we have expanded, our vision remains the same: to help build peace in Northern Ireland through its children and young people.

PROJECT CHILDREN'S FIRST VOLUNTEER
Denis Mulcahy, the founder of Project Children, doesn't use the power of personality or the force of rhetoric to inspire others to join his cause. Denis Mulcahy leads by example. He takes no salary from Project Children and works long hours tending to the big plans and small details of running the organisation. Over the past twenty-five years he has quietly masterminded summer vacations in America for more than 14,000 children in Northern Ireland.
He has given those children-Protestants and Catholics-a much-needed break from the grim politics of their own country and an extraordinary chance to play together. He hasn't done it alone, and he will be the first to tell you. In fact, if you try to praise Denis, he will quickly start praising Project Children host families, area co-ordinators, fund-raising volunteers, and benefactors. Denis considers himself simply one of the many. But Denis is truly the heart and soul of Project Children. He started it in 1975, along with his brother Pat. They both had grown up in County Cork, Ireland, and emigrated to New York, where they joined the New York Police Department. Denis is still with the force; he's a bomb squad detective. Pat retired early because of injury and returned to County Cork.

In 1975, Northern Ireland was a boiling pot of political violence. Armed soldiers, rolling tanks, and surveillance cameras were everywhere, trying to keep the lid on. People were dying and children were growing up scared. Protestant and Catholic families were insulating themselves against each other-fleeing integrated neighbourhoods in search of segregated enclaves. Denis and Pat were heartsick. They decided to do something to help the children. That summer they brought six kids from Northern Ireland-three Protestants and three Catholics-to Greenwood Lake, New York, where they lived. The idea was twofold. Most importantly they wanted to get the kids away from the violence and the paramilitaries who work double time recruiting kids during school breaks. Denis and Pat also wanted to show the Protestant and Catholic kids that they could live together and actually like each other.

Denis Mulcahy with James Ruoff, U.S. Customs, welcoming the children of Northern Ireland at J.F.K. Airport in New York.

Each summer two Aer Lingus jets touch down in the United States packed with over 600 excited kids ready for six weeks of fun in the sun. Six weeks away from the "Troubles" back home.

All these kids that came over through the years loved it here. They had a great time and it is really a great program. Alot of the older kids said it was like heaven. Swimming ,fishing, boating. Such a different world than what they were used to.
Maybe the girl was here and decieded to find her way back to US?
Never found her way out of NYC?

HollywoodBound
12-03-2006, 11:32 PM
http://missing-and-unidentified.org/midtown_jane_doe.htm
The web site linked above makes it seem clear she went missing sometime in the 80's not late 60's to 70's. Wonder if the serial # on the watch could be of any help?
That ring could very likely be a boyfriend's ring she wore.

outofthedark
12-03-2006, 11:41 PM
This web site makes it seem more likely she went missing sometime in the 80's.
That ring could very likely be a boyfriend's ring she wore.
Could be a high school ring too that could have belonged to a family member. Maybe a family member killed her, threw in the items and rolled her up in the carpet. I mostly think an enraged boyfriend, pimp or someone killed her though.

docwho3
12-04-2006, 01:31 AM
I am fairly sure that this case is also on another thread here at websleuths somewhere. I remember doing some research on it. My notes are all on a different computer hard drive but soon as I get that one back up and running I will look at my notes. I only mention it because it might be worth doing some reading in that thread to see what others may have turned up.

Edited to add:

Here is the oldest (I think)
http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=35644&highlight=McG

And this one also was begun later.
http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=41636&highlight=McG

ihadcabinfever
12-04-2006, 04:02 PM
Why would Nymissing.com report Jane Doe as having died after 1979, when found evidence clearly states after 1988 because of a piece of product packaging dated 1988+ being found with her remains


I think that was after the tag found on the clothing was researched and found to be made after 1979. They found a garment number and the item was made later. Is this the same as an inspector code?

outofthedark
12-04-2006, 04:08 PM
I think that was after the tag found on the clothing was researched and found to be made after 1979. They found a garment number and the item was made later. Is this the same as an inspector code?
Now I know a little more about the after 1979 info, I'm not sure about the inspector code though

ihadcabinfever
12-05-2006, 11:37 AM
hidden behind an old coal-burning furnace in the basement of a rundown, mostly abandoned apartment building on West 46th Street in Hell's Kitchen on Manhattan's West Side.

So who mantained the furnace during this time? Who was the building superintendant at the time? Having different entry ways could mean anyone had acess but only the person that was fimiliar with the place would know when they could mix concrete and hide a body without being seen. It's not like that basement was Grand central. Someone needed privacy.

ihadcabinfever
12-05-2006, 02:32 PM
P Mc G
*

Okay. This has been driving me crazy the Mc
*
That puncuation mark under the c , I don't think the possibility that it is her

confirmation name. I have seen alot of Initial rings but I have never seen the dot mark. It's not common. So maybe P first name M middle name c confirmation name and G last name?
I have looked up celtic grammar until my eyes are blurred. If you look at it ,it usually is shown on top of the
*
Mc

like that , not on the bottom. What about that now? :banghead:

ihadcabinfever
12-12-2006, 02:02 AM
http://www.eiic.org/history.htm

In the middle of the 1980's there was a large number of undocumented Irish living in the United States. At that time Irish immigrants were a group that had fallen between the immigration 'cracks', having missed out on the amnesty program of 1986. Because of the Irish immigrants' long history of contributing to their adopted country it was no surprise that by 1987 the Irish community had begun to agitate for changes in immigration law. The fruits of their labor are most visible in the Morrison and Schumer Visa programs, written into the U.S. Immigration Act of 1990, which give balance and diversity to U.S. immigration policy.

One group that was very instrumental in these positive changes was the Irish Immigration Reform Movement (IIRM). The IIRM also recognized the need for a center which could provide day-to-day assistance to recent Irish immigrants, especially since many were undocumented, and in 1988 Emerald Isle Immigration Center (EIIC) was born. In those early days a small hard-working staff and dedicated board and volunteers spent long hours helping people with important matters; bank accounts, driver's licenses, housing, medical insurance, education and protection under the law. The Center helped thousands to apply for visas after 1990 and has since assisted many more thousands to follow through and get green cards.
Since 1990 the Center has broadened the scope of its services to include job-training and placement services. The Center has also recently placed much emphasis on Citizenship and Voter Registration among Irish immigrants. The Center sees empowerment and participation as a vital factor in the well-being of the community it serves. In many ways, helping those who were once 'illegal aliens' to become U.S. citizens is enough reward for building the Center to its current position of leadership in New York's Irish immigrant community.

Today, however, we are seeing some setbacks for the overall well-being of the Irish immigrant community. It is becoming harder and harder to secure green cards. The Diversity Program offers one of the few hopes but the new immigration law passed by Congress last year even removes that chance for many. In the year ahead EIIC will strive to bring the attention of legislators to the plight befalling many immigrants from Ireland.

EIIC has had many highlights over the years. These highlights include the presentation of the Paul O'Dwyer Peace and Justice Award to President Bill Clinton in September 1998, and the memorable visits of Mary McAleese, President of Ireland, to the Woodside facility in June 1998, and President Mary Robinson's visit in May 1995.

In November of 1995 Brian O'Dwyer, as Chair of EIIC's Board of Directors, accompanied President Clinton on his historic trip to Ireland.

Among EIIC's funding sources are the Irish Government, the New York City Department for the Aging, the New York City Council, the New York State Assembly, Queens and Bronx delegations, and the Queens, Bronx, and Brooklyn Borough Presidents. Recently EIIC has secured a large grant from the State of New York to provide comprehensive citizenship services to New York's immigrant population.

Well now this is a large number of people to consider. How do they figure out where to start?

annemc2
12-12-2006, 02:32 AM
Interesting about the Irish connection!

I was curious about the monogramming, too, and tried to look up the Mc asterisk thing. I grew up with a Mc surname and occasionally saw the "c" underlined but never with a little star underneath. I checked out some websites to see examples of monogrammed signet rings but couldn't find any ready examples with Mc.

I did read that "traditionally, the last name initial is the middle letter of the monogram."

N8tiveNYR
01-16-2007, 05:24 PM
hidden behind an old coal-burning furnace in the basement of a rundown, mostly abandoned apartment building on West 46th Street in Hell's Kitchen on Manhattan's West Side.

So who mantained the furnace during this time? Who was the building superintendant at the time? Having different entry ways could mean anyone had acess but only the person that was fimiliar with the place would know when they could mix concrete and hide a body without being seen. It's not like that basement was Grand central. Someone needed privacy.
First, I want to thank whichever mod got me on here. It's been nearly a year of getting disabled before being activated. :banghead: Hooray, I finally made it in !!!:crazy:

Now on to this: I grew up in Hell's Kitchen and this particular case always bugged me. I lived in one of those tenements for about 14 years and the basements are the last place on earth anyone would ever want to go. Still, a superintendent has to go down there for boiler/water issues. I have always wondered who owned the building and who did the maintenance.
I still live in the city albeit on the upper west side now (one express train stop away from the building) and if anyone has any suggestions, I would be more than willing to try and check out info. My husband calls me tenacious (due to my success with my family genealogy) so I think I belong right here on WS. !!!
Glad to meet you all.

Carl
01-16-2007, 07:16 PM
Welcome to Websleuths!! :)

ihadcabinfever
01-18-2007, 01:20 AM
First, I want to thank whichever mod got me on here. It's been nearly a year of getting disabled before being activated. :banghead: Hooray, I finally made it in !!!:crazy:

Now on to this: I grew up in Hell's Kitchen and this particular case always bugged me. I lived in one of those tenements for about 14 years and the basements are the last place on earth anyone would ever want to go. Still, a superintendent has to go down there for boiler/water issues. I have always wondered who owned the building and who did the maintenance.
I still live in the city albeit on the upper west side now (one express train stop away from the building) and if anyone has any suggestions, I would be more than willing to try and check out info. My husband calls me tenacious (due to my success with my family genealogy) so I think I belong right here on WS. !!!
Glad to meet you all.

Oh geez , now thats the last place you should go asking anything by yourself.Don't go asking the matinence man. He will be insulted.
Do you think the ring is hers ? I don't think it is. I think someone put it on her to throw anyone off that came upon her.
Otherwise why leave it? With initials? I think it was left as a message. Like the soldier. Some sort of insider message.

N8tiveNYR
01-18-2007, 12:41 PM
[QUOTE=ihadcabinfever]Oh geez , now thats the last place you should go asking anything by yourself.Don't go asking the matinence man. He will be insulted.

Thanks for assuming I'm stupid and tacky. But hey, you don't know me personally. Anyway, I was thinking more along the lines of going downtown to look at property records, etc. Also, I am close enough to get a photo of the building which I am sure would satisfy a sleuther or two's curiousity. Alas, I must put this on hold for now bc my dad was just diagnosed with cancer and he's my priority.

laini
01-18-2007, 04:38 PM
First, I want to thank whichever mod got me on here. It's been nearly a year of getting disabled before being activated. :banghead: Hooray, I finally made it in !!!:crazy:

Now on to this: I grew up in Hell's Kitchen and this particular case always bugged me. I lived in one of those tenements for about 14 years and the basements are the last place on earth anyone would ever want to go. Still, a superintendent has to go down there for boiler/water issues. I have always wondered who owned the building and who did the maintenance.
I still live in the city albeit on the upper west side now (one express train stop away from the building) and if anyone has any suggestions, I would be more than willing to try and check out info. My husband calls me tenacious (due to my success with my family genealogy) so I think I belong right here on WS. !!!
Glad to meet you all.

Welcome N8tiveNYR! So glad your here! Being where you are, you may be able to dig up some dirt on this case!

laini
01-18-2007, 04:44 PM
Anyway, I was thinking more along the lines of going downtown to look at property records, etc. Also, I am close enough to get a photo of the building which I am sure would satisfy a sleuther or two's curiousity. Alas, I must put this on hold for now bc my dad was just diagnosed with cancer and he's my priority.
Property records/photos would be great! So sorry to hear about your dad. We will be here when you are able to return.

About the ring, my gut tells me it is a McG-Something. My maiden name is McSomething and I know I have seen something with a little line under the little c. I don't think it is anymore than First name P... Last name McG....

ihadcabinfever
01-18-2007, 05:32 PM
[QUOTE=ihadcabinfever]Oh geez , now thats the last place you should go asking anything by yourself.Don't go asking the matinence man. He will be insulted.

Thanks for assuming I'm stupid and tacky. But hey, you don't know me personally. Anyway, I was thinking more along the lines of going downtown to look at property records, etc. Also, I am close enough to get a photo of the building which I am sure would satisfy a sleuther or two's curiousity. Alas, I must put this on hold for now bc my dad was just diagnosed with cancer and he's my priority.

LOL I'm sorry , I didn't mean it like that. I am sorry your Father is sick. Mine is driving me crazy. Speaking of him , I told him about this girl they found there and He barked out "NOW what do you want to go poking around there for?" LOL He worked in the City until the Trade Center was completed and left for work in Pa . There was no more construction going on after that. I don't remember the rest but it was when you had to line up for gas I think.

I know he thinks Hells Kitchen was dangerous..... you know the Business stuff and I had been thinking about some article on CTV about MID TOWN DOE , I have to go back and read again. When the Irish were running down there who was in charge at the time and left for Florida? Someone turned ,I dont know who it was. Mc Grath maybe.
I'll get the link. heres a better one.
http://www.angelfire.com/blog/organizedcrime/westies/duganhit.html
These people were lunatics. So either it could be the neice ,They dont give her name.

here it is Alberta Sachs--Coonan's niece?

N8tiveNYR
01-19-2007, 11:30 AM
I know he thinks Hells Kitchen was dangerous..... you know the Business stuff and I had been thinking about some article on CTV about MID TOWN DOE , I have to go back and read again. When the Irish were running down there who was in charge at the time and left for Florida? Someone turned ,I dont know who it was. Mc Grath maybe.
I'll get the link. heres a better one.
http://www.angelfire.com/blog/organizedcrime/westies/duganhit.html
These people were lunatics. So either it could be the neice ,They dont give her name.

here it is Alberta Sachs--Coonan's niece?
I'm just jumping on real quick to follow up with the above organized crime link... BTW Mickey Featherstone was the one who turned. He is in the witness protection program now. Another little piece is that Tommy Hess was a good friend of my father. When I read the Westie's book in the early '90's and asked my Dad questions, he said, "They killed my good friend, Tommy Hess." I was stunned because I was sheltered from that as a child. And no, my Dad was not a Westie. It was the kind of neighborhood where everyone knew each other (and of each other) through either their church parish or the corner bar. I know some of these guys are still around but they don't have much power anymore. They sit in the bar denying the Westie's ever existed. I have experienced that firsthand and very recently. So, I'm going to stop there. As I said, my Dad is very ill. He needs a liver transplant and I am going to get tested to see if I fit the criteria for a living donor. :( Please keep us in your thoughts. I will be popping on and posting, but I'm not sure when I can get to photograph the building or get any property records.

ihadcabinfever
01-19-2007, 06:01 PM
I'm just jumping on real quick to follow up with the above organized crime link... BTW Mickey Featherstone was the one who turned. He is in the witness protection program now. Another little piece is that Tommy Hess was a good friend of my father. When I read the Westie's book in the early '90's and asked my Dad questions, he said, "They killed my good friend, Tommy Hess." I was stunned because I was sheltered from that as a child. And no, my Dad was not a Westie. It was the kind of neighborhood where everyone knew each other (and of each other) through either their church parish or the corner bar. I know some of these guys are still around but they don't have much power anymore. They sit in the bar denying the Westie's ever existed. I have experienced that firsthand and very recently. So, I'm going to stop there. As I said, my Dad is very ill. He needs a liver transplant and I am going to get tested to see if I fit the criteria for a living donor. :( Please keep us in your thoughts. I will be popping on and posting, but I'm not sure when I can get to photograph the building or get any property records.

I recognized a few names but I am going on an 8 year olds memory. Tommy Collins sounds familiar.I never even heard Westies until I was 17 maybe and I thought they were i Chicago.
All that Irish Heritage there and nobody claims her? It makes me think huh.. its weird ? I did find a website about irish heritage and these people were letting it fly. I'll be back on later . I'll find it.
LOL and would your dad or anyones dad say they were.Thats what they were talking about. I was laughing when this kid came on aand asked if anyone knew the boxer because it might be her grandfather.
they did have good links and decent info.

ihadcabinfever
02-20-2007, 11:23 PM
http://www.doenetwork.org/cases/337ufny.html
Unidentified White Female


The victim was discovered on February 10, 2003 in Manhattan, New York City, New York
She was a victim of homicide by strangulation
Skeletal Remains
The time of death occured sometime after 1988


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Vital Statistics


Estimated age: 15 - 21 years old. Several of her teeth and bones had not reached full maturity, suggesting she was between 17 and 19 years old.
Approximate Height and Weight: 5'2"
Distinguishing Characteristics: Light-colored hair, possibly red or reddish. Petite build. She wore a size 32 A bra.
Dentals: Available. She had expensive dental work at one point in her life, but her teeth also had severe decay, suggesting she may have been from a family of means but may have fallen on hard times, perhaps getting hooked on drugs, living on the streets or working as a prostitute.
Clothing/Jewelry: She was wearing a gold-colored ring inscribed with the initials P McG. Other clues include a brassiere and remains of pantyhose and a standard 1966 Bulova watch.
Other: Possibly of Irish descent. The victim may also have abused drugs, and been a prostitute - scraps of glittery clothing were also recovered at the scene.




http://www.doenetwork.org/cases/254ufny.html

Unidentified White Female

Skeletal remains found on May 13, 1984 at Harriman State Park, Orange County, New York, adjacent to State Route 6, South.
Cause of death is an apparent gunshot.
Estimated date of death: January 1982


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Vital Statistics


Estimated age: 35 - 45 years old.
Approximate Height and Weight: 5'0"-5'4"; 100-140 lbs.
Distinguishing Characteristics: Her hair was naturally gray, but she had dyed it brown. She was of medium build.
Clothing: Gray cotton jersey shorts, aprx. 27" waist and a light-colored bra, aprx. 34" - 36". Also found was a single-pierced earring; a yellow gold necklace; a 14K yellow gold engagement ring size 6 with European cut center diamond of 1.10 carats with 3 smaller diamonds on each side. This ring resized larger. Also found was a 3-stone 14K yellow gold mother's ring with aqua and ruby stones, and third stone missing (March & July remained). This ring marked with "14KT. P.G." ???????
Dental: Extensive, expensive fillings. Full dental and skeletal X-rays are available.

Wonder if they are related?

laini
02-20-2007, 11:33 PM
I'm just jumping on real quick to follow up with the above organized crime link... BTW Mickey Featherstone was the one who turned. He is in the witness protection program now. Another little piece is that Tommy Hess was a good friend of my father. When I read the Westie's book in the early '90's and asked my Dad questions, he said, "They killed my good friend, Tommy Hess." I was stunned because I was sheltered from that as a child. And no, my Dad was not a Westie. It was the kind of neighborhood where everyone knew each other (and of each other) through either their church parish or the corner bar. I know some of these guys are still around but they don't have much power anymore. They sit in the bar denying the Westie's ever existed. I have experienced that firsthand and very recently. So, I'm going to stop there. As I said, my Dad is very ill. He needs a liver transplant and I am going to get tested to see if I fit the criteria for a living donor. :( Please keep us in your thoughts. I will be popping on and posting, but I'm not sure when I can get to photograph the building or get any property records.


Hope you and your father are doing okay.

ihadcabinfever
03-07-2007, 06:19 PM
http://www.theyaremissed.org/ncma/gallery/ncmaprofile_all.php?A200502922S
vs.

http://www.nymissing.org/modules/news/article.php?storyid=27


age is off. profile of face is very good

dhchick04
03-07-2007, 07:28 PM
http://www.theyaremissed.org/ncma/gallery/ncmaprofile_all.php?A200502922S
vs.

http://www.nymissing.org/modules/news/article.php?storyid=27


age is off. profile of face is very good
That is a very good face comparison.

Masterj
03-07-2007, 08:19 PM
Face looks close to me. It certainly can't hurt to submit it.

You've been busy cabinfever! Great job :-)

ihadcabinfever
03-07-2007, 09:03 PM
Yes I have. It's also been 5 degrees outside. :(

I don't even want to let the dogs out.

future criminologist
10-15-2008, 10:59 AM
This one intrigued me, and there are a lot of clues so it seems solvable. I don't know if there's already a thread on it.

does anyone know if she has been identified?

http://www.doenetwork.org/cases/337ufny.html

Tom Friendly
10-15-2008, 12:15 PM
There is currently a thread here about this case:
http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=45075

Tom Friendly
10-15-2008, 12:17 PM
Both Patricia and the Jane Doe were killed by the same person...first Patricia was killed and her things taken then somehow the killer befriended the Jane Doe and gave her the ring before killing her........what do you think? A serial killer.............

Is this post a joke?

gaia227
10-15-2008, 12:54 PM
Is this post a joke?

lol - I thought the same thing TomF.

I had never heard of Manhattan Jane Doe before. I am glad the case was bumped up.

It is interesting she was found in the basement covered by concrete.....the fact that she was entombed in concrete makes me think the person who killed her may have had regular access and license to be in the basement. I am not sure how long it takes to pour concrete but you have to be able to get the supples down there, pour it and let it dry. It seems if you did not belong in that area it would seem a little suspicious lugging dry concrete to the basement.

I know in my NYC apt the basement is always locked.

future criminologist
10-15-2008, 02:04 PM
I wonder why the police think she could be of Irish descent.

also, maybe she wasn't a prostitute, but a nanny looking on a night out in Manhattan? sounds like the Swedish nanny case here in Boston about 10 years ago, when they only found half of her, in a dumpster. :(

I've noticed Doe Network posting more international disappearances. maybe it's time to start looking at U.K. missing persons cases for a hint?

future criminologist
10-15-2008, 02:06 PM
can we also bump this to the UID threads? since she is both a UID and a cold case?

shadowangel
10-15-2008, 03:59 PM
I recall discussing this case a few years ago in an earlier thread. The indications (and not all that strong, I'll admit) that she may have been Irish were that her hair was red (or reddish) and that she had the P McG ring.

The thing about this that got me was the fact that she was wrapped up in a blanket/carpet then encased in concrete. I actually sat down with my friendly home repair box-store salesman and figured out how much concrete that would take..And it wasn't a small amount. This was a public building, not someone "putting a new floor" in their own garage. It had to have been some undertaking, unless she was placed there when the building was built/renovated---Which I highly doubt, as it sounds like this is an old building.
Puzzling, to say the least.

Gray
10-17-2008, 03:58 PM
I found one man in his late 30's that lives in NYC and signed his name as P McG on a blog.

He has some interesting poetry on one of his blogs.

Total speculation, but it's still interesting to me that he's used the moniker "P McG", has poetry which talks about a young girl being hit by a bus, and lives in NYC. Probably just coincidence.

outofthedark
10-17-2008, 06:55 PM
Maybe the P McG ring didn't belong to her, maybe it belonged to her killer or maybe it doesn't belong to either of them and might actually belong to people they knew. Maybe the ring belonged to some complete stranger and it was stolen from them

kylie
10-20-2008, 02:04 AM
Is this post a joke?

No it was not a joke

gaia227
10-20-2008, 12:29 PM
I recall discussing this case a few years ago in an earlier thread. The indications (and not all that strong, I'll admit) that she may have been Irish were that her hair was red (or reddish) and that she had the P McG ring.

The thing about this that got me was the fact that she was wrapped up in a blanket/carpet then encased in concrete. I actually sat down with my friendly home repair box-store salesman and figured out how much concrete that would take..And it wasn't a small amount. This was a public building, not someone "putting a new floor" in their own garage. It had to have been some undertaking, unless she was placed there when the building was built/renovated---Which I highly doubt, as it sounds like this is an old building.
Puzzling, to say the least.

I agree. I said a similar thing in my earlier post. The fact that this was a public building is what makes the poured cement interestting. It leads me to believe the perp had a strong connection with the building, it was not abnormal to see this person around the building and in the basemet which made it easier for him to take the concrete mix into the basement to pour it over the body without raising too much suspicion.

shadowangel
10-20-2008, 01:30 PM
I agree. I said a similar thing in my earlier post. The fact that this was a public building is what makes the poured cement interestting. It leads me to believe the perp had a strong connection with the building, it was not abnormal to see this person around the building and in the basemet which made it easier for him to take the concrete mix into the basement to pour it over the body without raising too much suspicion.

As for what we figured up, the sales guy said no one would mix this amount of concrete by hand, unless they had a long time to do it. More likely, it would be mixed by machine on scene or, even more likely in the city, be delivered by truck and sent down on a chute. That's why I started wondering if there was any construction going on in the area... Like Mack Ray Edwards in California, getting rid of the bodies of the children he murdered at highway construction sites.

MadeaBecBec
03-11-2009, 10:56 PM
This missing female is a possibility;
http://www.doenetwork.org/cases/2765dfco.html
Penny McClees
Missing since February 18, 1985 from Aurora, Colorado
Classification: Endangered Missing

Circumstances of Disappearance
On February 18, 1985 at 8:59 a.m., Aurora Police officers responded to the home of John and Penny McClees in the 2500 block of South Pagosa Court, on a report that Penny McClees was missing.
After an exhaustive investigation, the whereabouts of Penny has yet to be determined.
Over the years, police have developed leads into the disappearance of Penny, but have yet to determine her possible whereabouts. It is suspected that Penny may have met with foul play.

Investigators
If you have any information concerning this case, please contact:
Aurora Police Department
Detective Conner
303-739–6190

I wonder why no age, height, weight, hair color given for McClees? I may have to call LE to find out, hopefully they will elaborate...
Here's Side by Side of JD and McClees

:+:MrTT:+:
03-15-2009, 06:55 PM
P McG.................
........................Pamela/ McGrier
.................................................. ..........or something similar sounding??...........just a hunch, noting for sure or certain..........just the first name i thought of when i read the initials, so i thought i post it just to add it............All MOO....and pure speculation on my part.

zinc
04-02-2010, 03:19 AM
Bump. Here are some current links to information about this woman, listed at the Doe Network as case file 337UFNY.

http://www.doenetwork.org/cases/337ufny.html

http://www.myspace.com/midtownjanedoe

http://www.amw.com/fugitives/case.cfm?id=27944

http://www.amw.com/features/feature_story_detail.cfm?id=145

hmg
04-03-2010, 12:17 AM
Someone mentioned the "Mc" possibly indicating Irish lineage. Hell's Kitchen was known to be the center for activity for the Westies, the Irish mob from 1965-1986: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Westies

Mia
04-03-2010, 09:40 PM
The Hell's Kitchen area of NYC (lately real estate agents in this area have been calling it "Clinton" instead, as I guess they think "Hell's Kitchen" doesn't sound too inviting) was always predominantly Irish. It was overrun with Irish gangs throughout the 19th and early 20th centuries, and the Irish mob operated there. Today, like many ethnic neighborhoods in NYC, especially here in Manhattan, Hell's Kitchen has become gentrified - lots of expensive condos going up and the families that have lived there for generations being pushed out because of rising rents. In the late 80s, however, there was still a significant Irish population. Due to this, and also the P McG ring, I'd be willing to bet our UID was Irish, probably 2nd or 3rd generation, would be my guess.

I doubt P McG is listed on any missing persons databases. It sounds like she was destitute, and may have been a prostitute/addicted to drugs, and estranged from her immediate family. The concrete 'tomb' would seem to indicate that whoever murdered her either owned the building she was murdered/'buried' in, or was close to whoever owned the building, thus allowing them the time and privacy to build the tomb/coffin. Would it be possible to find out who owned the building from, say, 1982-1992?

Speaking of Dail Dinwiddie, I just read about her case for the first time a few weeks ago on a forensic astrology blog. According to the astrologist who writes the blog, the stars 'predicted' that while walking home after leaving the bar, she was stalked and subsequently hit from behind and knocked out by a man, then brought to the man's house in a nearby neighborhood/suburban area where he and his girlfriend/wife kept her captive for quite awhile and forced her to act in pornography. It then said that at some point she became addicted to drugs while being held captive, was eventually set free, and set out to live on the streets and became a prostitute in another city (outside of Virginia) to support her drug habit. This astrologer's theory was that after being held captive for so long and submitted to unspeakable acts and becoming addicted to drugs, Dail didn't/couldn't face her family, thus resulting in her leaving Virginia altogether. But she seemed to truly believe that Dail is still very much alive, or at least she was for quite awhile after her disappearance. Granted, I don't know how much stock I put into this kind of thing, but I thought her theory was interesting in regards to several of you comparing her to our unidentified, who by all accounts appeared destitute and or addicted.

tatertot
05-06-2010, 10:58 PM
I love vintage clothes and have seen that ILGWU logo before.

Here's an ILGWU label from a vintage slip. The other side of this label is printed with the Sears logo, so I assume that some clothing manufacturers printed the ILGWU logo right on the main tag and others used separate tags, one just for the logo. The "75" on my tag might mean the year the garment was made. I have another slip with a "76" on it. Maybe there was an "88" on the clothing tag found with Jane Doe.

http://i171.photobucket.com/albums/u316/Rollerwings/photos003.jpg

Danaya
12-06-2010, 01:01 AM
Is the estimation of height totaly accurate?

CarlK90245
12-06-2010, 01:08 AM
Is the estimation of height totaly accurate?

On skeletal remains, you should add or subtract 3 inches from the height estimate.

carbuff
12-06-2010, 01:52 AM
She looks like Tammy Akers. Akers was 14 when she ran away in 1977, so she would have been about 17 or 18 in 1979 if that earlier date were correct. She was petite and red-headed.

But I assume the garment tag and the soldier must have been rolled up in the carpet with her, which would make the later time pretty definite, unfortunately.

TechWriter797
12-06-2010, 01:59 AM
http://www.doenetwork.org/cases/254ufny.html

Unidentified White Female

Skeletal remains found on May 13, 1984 at Harriman State Park, Orange County, New York, adjacent to State Route 6, South.
Cause of death is an apparent gunshot.
Estimated date of death: January 1982

--------------------------------------------------------------------------

Vital Statistics

Estimated age: 35 - 45 years old.
Approximate Height and Weight: 5'0"-5'4"; 100-140 lbs.
Distinguishing Characteristics: Her hair was naturally gray, but she had dyed it brown. She was of medium build.
Clothing: Gray cotton jersey shorts, aprx. 27" waist and a light-colored bra, aprx. 34" - 36". Also found was a single-pierced earring; a yellow gold necklace; a 14K yellow gold engagement ring size 6 with European cut center diamond of 1.10 carats with 3 smaller diamonds on each side. This ring resized larger. Also found was a 3-stone 14K yellow gold mother's ring with aqua and ruby stones, and third stone missing (March & July remained). This ring marked with "14KT. P.G." ???????

Wonder if they are related?

I think the 14KT PG stands for 14K Plumb Gold.

anyc
01-24-2011, 01:37 AM
As a redhead, AND the bearer of a "Mc" surname, I would just like to point out the fallacy that most redheads are of Irish decent. Scotland actually has the highest percentage (around 40%, I think) of redheads in the world, and just as many, if not more, "Mc" surnames.
Also, I looked up the most common Christian/given names for girls in the 60s that started with "p", and in the top 100:

Pamela
Patricia
Paula
and Peggy
*peggy was a very popular nickname in the 50s and 60s - I know several in close family and friends who were born during that time.

jessr927
05-07-2011, 09:19 AM
Hi everyone - new here - I was reading about this case on the Doe Network site and it's been bothering me... seems like the ring would be a good lead, hard to believe she hasn't been identified yet (runaway from out of state?). The person who put her there has to be connected with the building, like a super, porter, known contractor to the bldg, or property manager/landlord to get that much concrete in without being noticed by the super or residents. Just my thoughts.

Cubby
05-07-2011, 03:22 PM
Welcome to WS jessr927!

:welcome:

jessr927
05-07-2011, 03:34 PM
Thanks, Cubby :)

I just found this link: http://missing-and-unidentified.org/midtown_jane_doe/study.html which has some interesting info such as, the label of her clothing was misidentified and the correct ID adds approx 20 years to the time frame of death.

I also think the ring's initials should be read as P.G. Mc. If I were named Patricia McGill, I think it would be strange to say my initials are P. McG. More likely the G is a middle name. I also don't think it was a man's ring (father, boyfriend, killer) since it was on her pinky. A woman, especially a woman that petite, is almost guaranteed to have thinner fingers than most men; if it were a man's ring it would be on her middle finger or on a chain around her neck.

believe09
05-07-2011, 08:58 PM
I am sure this has been discussed-traditional monogram or initials read first initial, last initial, middle initial, so I agree with jessr and welcome to WS!!

jessr927
05-09-2011, 06:18 AM
I searched & can't find the answer, does anyone know if the rat poison bag was found in the concrete with her, or just at the scene? Would be nice if it was in the concrete as that would narrow down the time frame a lot from 1966 when the watch was made.

Snufamonbobball
05-09-2011, 12:36 PM
I searched & can't find the answer, does anyone know if the rat poison bag was found in the concrete with her, or just at the scene? Would be nice if it was in the concrete as that would narrow down the time frame a lot from 1966 when the watch was made.

I don't know if the information is accurate, but I found a myspace website for Midtown Jane Doe that says the bag was found under the concrete. I'm going to keep looking for more info though.

http://www.myspace.com/midtownjanedoe

jessr927
05-09-2011, 06:16 PM
Thanks, Snufamonbobball. I was at that site earlier and didn't catch that - not used to Myspace layout anymore! As for what the Det. said, no matter if the bag was already there, or placed there, that still would placed her time of death 1979 - 2003 when she was discovered.

Glittery clothes also might just have been the style from disco era, not necessarily pointing towards her being a hooker.

I've been thinking all day about this and I feel her death may have been connected to the Westies. No pimp or dealer can move that much concrete without anyone noticing and wondering why. The entire situation seems planned out. 45+ bags of concrete aren't just in a random person's car if they argue with their gf, snap and kill them. She was probably killed upstairs, they wrapped her in the rug to get her to the basement with no one noticing, then had the concrete poured. The knot that tied her was like a scaffolding knot, it was not a crude knot. It points to someone with construction ties/experience.

SouthWestHiker
05-11-2011, 09:46 AM
I've been thinking all day about this and I feel her death may have been connected to the Westies. No pimp or dealer can move that much concrete without anyone noticing and wondering why. The entire situation seems planned out. 45+ bags of concrete aren't just in a random person's car if they argue with their gf, snap and kill them. She was probably killed upstairs, they wrapped her in the rug to get her to the basement with no one noticing, then had the concrete poured. The knot that tied her was like a scaffolding knot, it was not a crude knot. It points to someone with construction ties/experience.

I am not sure it is connected to the Westies but I agree there is much more than an angry pimp or a bad date here. The disposal was extremely involved and time consuming. Whoever killed her didn't want her found for a while and did alot of work to make sure of that!

SouthWestHiker
05-11-2011, 09:51 AM
Thanks, Cubby :)

I just found this link: http://missing-and-unidentified.org/midtown_jane_doe/study.html which has some interesting info such as, the label of her clothing was misidentified and the correct ID adds approx 20 years to the time frame of death.

I also think the ring's initials should be read as P.G. Mc. If I were named Patricia McGill, I think it would be strange to say my initials are P. McG. More likely the G is a middle name. I also don't think it was a man's ring (father, boyfriend, killer) since it was on her pinky. A woman, especially a woman that petite, is almost guaranteed to have thinner fingers than most men; if it were a man's ring it would be on her middle finger or on a chain around her neck.

That link was great and included in-depth details about the case. The information seem reliable but how can we confirm that?

If it is, then the date of death would be late 60s, early 70s which changes pretty much everything in term of looking for missing persons!

Such an involved disposal with concrete means there was a story behind this, much more than a prostitute IMO.

It's aa very interesting case

Donjeta
08-02-2011, 05:36 PM
Namus link has four ruleouts

Sherill Levett 1900 Alabama
Stacy McCall 1974 Missouri
Kimberly McClasky 1966 Illinois
Suzanne Streeter 1973 Missouri


If Charley Project information is correct they, amazingly enough got her first name, last name, year of birth and state all wrong...

http://www.charleyproject.org/cases/l/levitt_sherrill.html
Not really sure why someone thought she might need to be ruled out, she's way out of the age range.

CarlK90245
08-18-2011, 05:00 PM
Here's an article on Judith O'Donnell, indicating that she is currently being compared to Hell's Kitchen Jane Doe.

http://www.longislandpress.com/2011/08/18/still-looking-for-judy-judith-erin-odonnell/

http://www.longislandpress.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/08/judy_christmas.png

Judith Erin O'Donnell
http://www.charleyproject.org/cases/o/odonnell_judith.html

Judith was known to frequent the Hell's Kitchen area, and her grandmother's name was Phyllis McGrorty, an exact match to the P McG initials on the ring found with Hell's Kitchen Jane Doe's remains.

There are a few problems with this possible match though. Judith is listed as 5'10 - much taller than the 5'2" estimate for the Jane Doe. Also, the garment worker's tag sewn into the clothing indicates that the Jane Doe died sometime after 1988. This would have been at least 7-8 years after Judith was last seen, and Judith would have been at least 26 years old by then. The Jane Doe was estimated to have been a teenager.

Her sister posts here under the name JudysSisterMaureen. Perhaps she might want to comment here with regard to this possible match.

taramarie
08-19-2011, 12:02 AM
Carl, regarding the Judith O'Donnell match, the height is definitely a huge discrepancy, but according the website linked previously (and linked below), the clothing tag was actually misidentified. According to the link, the real company that manufactured her clothing dissolved in 1973, which could push her time of death back tremendously. Check it out and see what you think:

http://missing-and-unidentified.org/midtown_jane_doe/study.html

JudysSisterMaureen
08-19-2011, 10:55 AM
Here's an article on Judith O'Donnell, indicating that she is currently being compared to Hell's Kitchen Jane Doe.

http://www.longislandpress.com/2011/08/18/still-looking-for-judy-judith-erin-odonnell/

http://www.longislandpress.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/08/judy_christmas.png

Judith Erin O'Donnell
http://www.charleyproject.org/cases/o/odonnell_judith.html

Judith was known to frequent the Hell's Kitchen area, and her grandmother's name was Phyllis McGrorty, an exact match to the P McG initials on the ring found with Hell's Kitchen Jane Doe's remains.

There are a few problems with this possible match though. Judith is listed as 5'10 - much taller than the 5'2" estimate for the Jane Doe. Also, the garment worker's tag sewn into the clothing indicates that the Jane Doe died sometime after 1988. This would have been at least 7-8 years after Judith was last seen, and Judith would have been at least 26 years old by then. The Jane Doe was estimated to have been a teenager.

Her sister posts here under the name JudysSisterMaureen. Perhaps she might want to comment here with regard to this possible match.

that ring haunts me. the story haunts me. The other details - great dental work and then rotting teeth - haunt me. that Doe, strangled, wrapped in a rug and buried under concrete - and the location, so close to where she was known to hang out - haunt me. Whether it's her I don't know. the height thing is a HUGE discrepancy, you are right. When I called the precinct, I was shaken down - pretty hard - by the investigator who has been assigned the case. The original detective, who is now retired, his number is erroneously listed. the NYS trooper assigned to Judy's case - has not called me back, and who knows whether she called back the, using much less awful language than i'd rather, jerk, with whom I spoke.

Listen, buddy, I have a missing sister. You have a doe. There are enough similarities that I called you. Stop being an A-hole and help me.

Sorry, the anger and emotions are pretty raw today. thanks for reposting this here. The technology has all changed SO MUCH. who knows the condition of the bones? who knows how they measured? Was height based on femur? Was it based on the height from skull to toes? Cross check the damn dentals and get back to me!!

JudysSisterMaureen
08-19-2011, 11:12 AM
http://youtu.be/2a1KVQtwH04 I don't know if it will help. But the music - haunting - I feel that it well represents her. Whoever hurt her in life can no longer hurt her. I strongly suspect that she met a bad trick along the way, and it could well be that this Doe is her.

Whoever it is - she was someone's daughter. I hate to think that this is how Judy met her fate, but if it is, I will be so relieved to put her to rest appropriately.

JudysSisterMaureen
08-19-2011, 12:09 PM
If anyone wants to notify LE of a possible match on this case, go right ahead, I have no wish to speak to those particular investigators again. LOL!!! Please post what they say in response.:)

Interesting, as I had a similar taste in my mouth-- the person who called me back -- it was at 10:30 at night -- REALLY? You called me back at 10:30 at night - and shook me down ?? WOW ! and I'm trying to help you CLEAR a case?

JudysSisterMaureen
08-19-2011, 12:13 PM
New York Post
December 21, 2003

STUMPED BY TOMB MYSTERY; COPS CHASE DECADES OLD CLUES IN PROBE OF GRUESOME "JANE DOE" SLAY

The killer bound the young woman's hands and feet with an extension cord and circled it around her neck. The murderer then wrapped her body in a patch of rust-colored carpet.

Next,the killer carried her down a darkened stairway into the dank basement of a neglected Hell's Kitchen building that was home to squatters, pimps, prostitutes, drug addicts and a popular gay nightclub.

The murderer dropped his burden in a far corner of the basement, next to an aging coal furnace, then mixed enough cement to build a foot-high slab roughly 6 feet wide and 5 feet long.

There, for up to 15 years, the body remained, under the concrete slab, in the basement of 301 W. 46th st, until a construction worker smashed through a section of the tomb with a sledgehammer Febuary 10 and discovered a human skull.

"He flagged down a beat cop, and we got the call" said Gerard Gardiner, a NYPD homicide detective who is now charged with the Jane Doe case.

"At this point we believe she was a young, middle-class woman who probably hopped on a bus to New York full of dreams, but who ended up on the streets" Gardiner said.......

chills.up.spine.

JudysSisterMaureen
08-19-2011, 12:17 PM
Hollow, you made an excellent point about the initials on the ring. I sometimes wear my grandmother's signet ring with initials different than my own. If the victim's ring is a family heirloom, they may never find out who she is.

My grandmother, whose 50th wedding anniversary my sister hitch-hiked to from NY to MN because she was disallowed to ride with the family in 1979 - her name was Phyllis McGrorty.

If my sister was willing to hitch hike in the late fall, from NY to MN, doesn't take much of a leap to think she would love to wear such a ring if she saw it at a flea market - or maybe my grandmother had this ring and gave it to her (though I doubt that's the case, as I don't recall ever seeing or hearing about it) ... however- Judy stole stuff regularly, and was very attached to family. I could TOTALLY see this being something she would wear.

JudysSisterMaureen
08-19-2011, 05:52 PM
I called back today and got a much different detective -- and let him know my thoughts on the det who had called me back a couple of weeks ago. I hope this goes somewhere. If it it Judy, I hope to give her the burial she deserves. If it is not, I won't stop looking for the Jane that needs her name.

Redwood146
08-20-2011, 01:30 AM
My thoughts regarding the Jane Doe is that whoever killed her would be a suspect straight away if her body was found and identified, makes me wonder the killer knew the woman's family and friends. Maybe even a boyfriend or husband did this.

EveDallas
10-11-2011, 08:30 AM
Hello everyone and I am new here, and I also live in New York and this case has always insterest me, why it is like a puzzle with so many pieces but none will fit. But I always wonder about that garment tag found with the body, did they ever found out the type of clothing it was attracted to ? Or did ever figured out what the scraps of glitterly clothing were? Could it have been a blouse, skirt, dress, sweater ? Did the buttons found with the body belong with the tag?

webrocket
10-11-2011, 04:49 PM
there are many intriguing aspects to the story. from the myspace narrative it is stated that she was found in "relatively fresh concrete". what is relatively fresh concrete? the building is old so it is obviously newer than that. I don't think, however, they are saying it was concrete of just a couple of year's time. just my take on that.

the rat poison - could be symbolic that she 'ratted' on the Westies and that's why she was done in. however, rats have always been a huge problem in NYC so the fact there was rat poison in the basement is no shocker. that it got mixed into the cement is the curiosity.

the toy soldier - probably symbolic as well to mean something along the lines of a foot soldier in a gang like the Westies. not likely something that would have been in the basement normally unlike rat poison.

JudysSisterMaureen
10-13-2011, 06:34 PM
the Dentals did not rule out my sister -- they are now working the DNA. I'm not sure if I should be happy or sad. All I know is that I want resolve. At least, if we have a body, we can work backwards toward how it happened. Lots of theories swirling around.

CarlK90245
10-13-2011, 07:55 PM
the Dentals did not rule out my sister -- they are now working the DNA. I'm not sure if I should be happy or sad. All I know is that I want resolve. At least, if we have a body, we can work backwards toward how it happened. Lots of theories swirling around.

I wouldn't read too much into the fact that they were unable to rule out on dentals. When evaluating dentals, they always allow for the possibility that the missing person might have had more dental work and/or lost additional teeth since the last known dental visit.

"Inconclusive" means that there are no missing or restored teeth on the MP's dental records that are not found on the UID.

If the MP's dental records indicate fillings or missing teeth, and the same teeth on the UID are not missing/restored, then they would say it's a positive rule-out. But if there are fillings or missing teeth found on the UID that aren't on the MP's dental records, they won't say it's a rule-out. They will say it's inconclusive.

Therefore, If your sister had little or no dental work and few or no missing teeth, then I wouldn't read too much into it. There might be plenty of inconsistencies, but they won't call it a rule-out. However, if she had a lot of dental work, the "inconclusive" ruling might be more meaningful.

EveDallas
10-18-2011, 02:02 PM
Could it be that the police might have the identify of MJD but don't know it. If this woman or girl was a prostitute there might be a chance that she was arrested at one point in her stay in and around Hell's Kitchen and she could be in their arrest files somewhere

eileenhawkeye
01-08-2012, 04:57 PM
Here are some missing girls and women I found that fit some of the criteria:

http://www.charleyproject.org/cases/d/dunn_martha.html
Martha Dunn

http://www.charleyproject.org/cases/b/burnette_mary.html
Mary Burnette

http://www.charleyproject.org/cases/k/king_tracy.html
Tracy King

malaika
02-09-2012, 02:35 PM
.... but according the website linked previously (and linked below), the clothing tag was actually misidentified. According to the link, the real company that manufactured her clothing dissolved in 1973, which could push her time of death back tremendously. Check it out and see what you think:

http://missing-and-unidentified.org/midtown_jane_doe/study.html

I wasn't able to open this site, did anyone get a chance to look at it? Did it definitively show that UID could have theoretically been killed any time after 1973? Someone please clarify please? Thx--

malaika
02-09-2012, 03:25 PM
Hey Carl, thanks for the quick reply. I did more searching about these two girls AFTER I posted that initial one [which I subsequently deleted], because it became apparent that 1) Sarah Hajney was well cared for and would likely not have the deteriorating dentition this UID had 2) The suspect was not TOO concerned with covering up his crime, as he left Hajney's blood-filled car in plain sight with the interior light on. 3) Finding one girl's remains so close to the scene probably meant that the killer would be unlikely to carry the other girl's remains to a different county and then encase her in cement.

SO I deleted that Sarah Hajney post---but thank you for digging around on it so quickly!

CarlK90245
02-09-2012, 03:27 PM
Malaika had a comment about Sarah Ann Hajney https://www.findthemissing.org/us/cases/9863/70, which Malaika subsequently deleted. I responded to the message with photos, and a few links to articles, but after realizing that Malaika's comment was deleted, I also deleted the response.

traacker13
08-29-2012, 01:30 PM
I would be curious to know where the rat poisioning and the toy soldier were found in relation to the body. I would also be curious about what your thoughts are about the watch. I think someone mentioned it was from 1966, is that correct?

The reason I mention this is that I found a missing person that I believe is a good match for this Jane Doe but the problem is that she disappeared in 1970.

Denise Sheehy is a possible match in the following ways:

Her surname is probably the most intriguing in possibilities that this could be her in that it is Irish. Just as the police predicted the UID to be.

Her height estimate matches Midtown Jane Does at 5'2"

Her age when she went missing was 16

She is a good proximity match: She dissapeared from Queens County, New York

She was supposedly wearing a Gold ring with the initials DS, and Gold boys school ring

Regarding the watch near the UID, how likely would it be in your opinion that she would be wearing a 22 year old watch vs. wearing a 4 year old watch? It's possible of course, but in all likelihood, I would make the assumption in the favor that the watch the UID was wearing was not nearly that old when she was wearing it. This is in favor of the fact that I believe Denise Sheehy should at least be looked at.

What do you think???

Denise's page:
https://www.findthemissing.org/en/cases/5533/89

ginestra
08-30-2012, 07:46 PM
from:identifyus.org
https://www.findthemissing.org/cases/show/8529
Case Information
Status Missing
First name Priscilla
Middle name Giordano
Last name McKee
Nickname/Alias
Date LKA March 26, 1991 04:00
Date entered 10/28/2010
Age LKA 44 to 44 years old
Age now 65 years old
Race White
Ethnicity
Sex Female
Height (inches) 60.0
Weight (pounds) 110.0
Circumstances
City Virginia Beach
State Virginia
Zip code
County Virginia Beach City
Circumstances After discussion of divorce with her
McKee made statements that she was going to commit suicide. Victim left house driving a 1985 Nissan 2DR 200XS Slate Gray in color at approximately 0130 hours on 3/26/91. Victim's husband recieved call from Chesapeake Bay Bridge Police stating they located victim's vehicle on the first island of the Chesapeake Bay Bridge and was unattended.

Last seen wearing dark blue slacks, dark blue knit sweater with white specks, ankle length navy blue wool coat, medium blue fake fur cap
Footwear Brown Boots
Jewelry


Okay the intials are the same, and also I notice they mentioned glittery clothing, which corresponds with "specked" clothing? Could the age be wrong?

ginestra
08-30-2012, 07:50 PM
a pic of Priscilla

Nixster13
08-31-2012, 01:07 PM
I just read through this post and I have a question. Everyone has been speculating about the ring, the garment tag, the toy soldier and the rat poison. What about the rug? Was it regular carpeting? A throw rug? Any idea when it was manufactured? To whom it was sold to? Just a thought.

JudysSisterMaureen
04-22-2013, 12:33 PM
does anyone know if this Doe was ever entered into NAMUS and what the case number is? I was just searching and couldn't find her there.

CarlK90245
04-22-2013, 12:59 PM
does anyone know if this Doe was ever entered into NAMUS and what the case number is? I was just searching and couldn't find her there.

https://identifyus.org/en/cases/5703

JudysSisterMaureen
04-22-2013, 01:47 PM
https://identifyus.org/en/cases/5703

thank you! (I was on the phone with someone from NamUs trying to find her!)

carbuff
04-22-2013, 09:02 PM
I would be curious to know where the rat poisioning and the toy soldier were found in relation to the body. I would also be curious about what your thoughts are about the watch. I think someone mentioned it was from 1966, is that correct?

The reason I mention this is that I found a missing person that I believe is a good match for this Jane Doe but the problem is that she disappeared in 1970.

Denise Sheehy is a possible match in the following ways:

Her surname is probably the most intriguing in possibilities that this could be her in that it is Irish. Just as the police predicted the UID to be.

Her height estimate matches Midtown Jane Does at 5'2"

Her age when she went missing was 16

She is a good proximity match: She dissapeared from Queens County, New York

She was supposedly wearing a Gold ring with the initials DS, and Gold boys school ring

Regarding the watch near the UID, how likely would it be in your opinion that she would be wearing a 22 year old watch vs. wearing a 4 year old watch? It's possible of course, but in all likelihood, I would make the assumption in the favor that the watch the UID was wearing was not nearly that old when she was wearing it. This is in favor of the fact that I believe Denise Sheehy should at least be looked at.

What do you think???

Denise's page:
https://www.findthemissing.org/en/cases/5533/89

Did you ever follow up on this possibility? It looks quite likely to me based on circumstances and demographics.

It's fairly common for girls to wear watches that belonged to a mother/grandmother/aunt, so it could be quite a bit older. But it could be new, too.

Lostindetroit
04-26-2013, 01:45 PM
In my opinion she was found in a lower level, like a basement or below a building, my point being I don't think the Rat Poison or the Toy Soldier have anything to do with our doe. If you go in my Michigan basement or under my house Kids played with those all the time in the basement, in the dirt. They were probably just left by some kids playing. The rat poison, ITS A BASEMENT! it was left to kill a rodent problem they may have had over the years, I think nothing more than that about those two objects. Not meaning they cannot help date our victim, because they can. If they were buried around the same vicinity at the same time that could help date the UID. I really don't think a possible runaway/vagabond/prostitute in Hells Kitchen carries around a small plastic toy soldier for fun. I dunno just a blurb...

sam spade
04-27-2013, 11:05 PM
I think with the clothing label date being in dispute now, someone should take a look at Tammy Akers. I had logged on to post her and saw a previous person had suggested her. She just looks too much like the doe. Thanks.

EmmaliLucia
04-29-2013, 01:50 PM
Carl, regarding the Judith O'Donnell match, the height is definitely a huge discrepancy, but according the website linked previously (and linked below), the clothing tag was actually misidentified. According to the link, the real company that manufactured her clothing dissolved in 1973, which could push her time of death back tremendously. Check it out and see what you think:

http://missing-and-unidentified.org/midtown_jane_doe/study.html

I can't get that link to work so I'm just going to take what you said as fact.

With that in mind I've found a large group of women that this could possibly be.


http://www.charleyproject.org/images/b/buck_rosemary.jpg
Rosemary Hamilton Buck (http://www.charleyproject.org/cases/b/buck_rosemary.html)
Went missing from Syracuse, New York in 1973.
In range: Age and Height and Hair colour



http://www.charleyproject.org/images/t/tillinghast_sheryl.jpg
Sheryl Ann Tillinghast (http://www.charleyproject.org/cases/t/tillinghast_sheryl.html)
Went Missing from Wassaic, New York in 1973
In range: Age and Height



http://www.charleyproject.org/images/s/sheehy_denise.jpg
Denise Marie Sheehy (http://www.charleyproject.org/cases/s/sheehy_denise.html)
Went Missing from Woodside, New York in 1970
In range: Age and Height



http://www.charleyproject.org/images/l/loomis_charlotte.jpg
Charlotte Jean Loomis (http://www.charleyproject.org/cases/l/loomis_charlotte.html)
Went missing from Eatontown, New Jersey in 1972
In range: Age and Height and hair colour



http://www.charleyproject.org/images/h/hopler_sandra.jpg
Sandra Lee Hopler (http://www.charleyproject.org/cases/h/hopler_sandra.html)
Went missing from La Plume, Pennsylvania in 1973
In range: Age and Hair colour. Height is three inches off at 5'4, while not unheard of, I usually consider it out of range after three inches



http://www.charleyproject.org/images/m/moulton_cathy.jpg
Cathy Marie Moulton (http://www.charleyproject.org/cases/m/moulton_cathy.html)
Went missing from Portland, Maine in 1971
In range: Age and hair colour. 5'4



http://www.charleyproject.org/images/s/schulze_lynne3.jpg
Lynne Katherine Schultz (http://www.charleyproject.org/cases/s/schulze_lynne.html)
Missing from Middlebury, Vermont in 1971
In range: Age and height



http://www.charleyproject.org/images/c/cole_rose2.jpg
Rose Lena Cole (http://www.charleyproject.org/cases/c/cole_rose.html)
Missing from Oakland, California (But is a known hitchhiker/runaway) since 1972-1973
In Range: Age and possibly height



http://www.charleyproject.org/images/g/groenenberg_corinne.jpg
Corinne June Groenenberg (http://www.charleyproject.org/cases/g/groenenberg_corinne.html)
Missing from Modesto, California (Last seen hitchhiking) in 1973
In range: Age, She's 5'6, making her a bit too tall.



http://www.charleyproject.org/images/t/tomlinson_deborah.jpg
Deborah Lee Tomlinson (http://www.charleyproject.org/cases/t/tomlinson_deborah.html)
Missing from Creswell, Oregon in 1973
In range: Age. She's 5'5




Those are all my cases from the 70s that I liked. I looked into late 60s and found a couple but decided not to put them up. I'll come back after school to make a list for the 80s and 90s

jessr927
05-21-2013, 09:56 AM
Denise Sheehy looks like a sensible match for all the reasons listed by Traacker13, also, Denise's stats show she would be petite enough to wear a 32A bra. However there were pantyhose and glittery clothing found with MJD, not matching the clothes Denise wore when she was last seen, and her page says she didn't take any personal belongings with her when she left home.

Lostindetroit
05-22-2013, 09:58 AM
I have been following Cathy Moulton's case and I think you can rule her out as a possible. Of course I can't be sure but I honestly believe the lead on her page about her possibly being found in the woods is a pretty sensible one. I also agree on the on the stats for Denise Sheehy. This case is just so hard to date the UID.

jessr927
05-22-2013, 12:19 PM
I found a similar case to MJD on the Doe Network:

http://doenetwork.org/cases/750ufny.html

Young woman buried in concrete in the basement of a former NYC club around the same time as MJD (MJD's shirt tag based her year of death no earlier than 1988, correct? And the Tribeca Jane Doe's est. year of death says 1984 - 1988).

EmmaliLucia
05-22-2013, 01:36 PM
I have been following Cathy Moulton's case and I think you can rule her out as a possible. Of course I can't be sure but I honestly believe the lead on her page about her possibly being found in the woods is a pretty sensible one. I also agree on the on the stats for Denise Sheehy. This case is just so hard to date the UID.

I don't know, I find it hard to believe that someone found a skeleton in the woods, couldn't retrace his steps, but no one has seen this skeleton in the 30 years since?

Lostindetroit
05-22-2013, 02:35 PM
Yea who knows. I Guess a 16 year old can get around. But I lived in rural Michigan most of my life and I've seen plenty of things in the woods that I would never be able to take you back to. There's a lot of woods in Maine too.

Lex141
07-23-2013, 07:19 PM
Hello,

My name is Alexandra - I've been a member for awhile but am now pregnant on bed rest so am forced to relax, and have found myself here at web sleuths more and more often. New to "posting" so please bear with me :)

I've been drawn to this case for several reasons.

I was a troubled teen who moved to NYC at a young age, and identify with the "runaway" aspect.

I was searchng through 1980s missing cases on the Charley Project and came across this

http://www.charleyproject.org/cases/m/munyon_diana.html

the height, build, hair etc seem accurate. It also notes that she was estranged from her family at a young age, and seemed to "bounce around".

Any thoughts?

sidneyia
07-24-2013, 03:00 PM
Hi all,

I did some searching on the union label found with this Jane Doe. This is not an ILGWU label but a Coat & Suit Industry National Recovery Board label, which was used 1938-1964 (source (http://sammydvintage.com/vintage-style/union-labels/)) This would've come out of a women's business suit or a coat and therefore probably wasn't connected to the scraps of glittery fabric found with the body. I'd like to know how LE came up with the year 1987, since I can't find any mention of this label being used past the mid 60s.

I also know, from my own experience in the vintage business, that the number on a union label does not correlate with the date the item was made. You need the registration number (found on the regular tag, not the union label) to extrapolate this data.

Hope this is helpful.

Hcram
07-25-2013, 01:30 PM
Just a bit of history found about the building: http://vanishingnewyork.blogspot.com/2013/05/301-west-46th.html

http://gotham.fromthesquare.org/2013/04/farewell-to-steve-pauls-the-scene/

Found this a bit interesting: The strange place in Forty-Sixth Street, in the basement, called the Cave of the Fallen Angels.

And NYC Property Records can be searched through ACRIS. Although they are public record not sure I can post here.

Lex141
07-26-2013, 01:44 AM
Wow, this takes it in a whole different direction. I can't believe this was never used in the connection before. Amazing sleuthing

"The Scene" in the late 60's was a rock club, considered to be the original Studi 54, frquented by Andy Warhol and his entourage (edie sedgwick, etc)

Instead of the prostitute/runaway theory, she could be a groupie type, kind of like Penny Lane from Almost Famous

Tatsachen
02-01-2014, 10:20 AM
Looking at her NamUs page, it seems that the earliest time of death the medical examiner's now comfortable using is 1992. https://identifyus.org/en/cases/5703 I imagine this means that they've done some additional forensic work to nail down a time range. It also means yet again looking at a different set of missing persons to match. Of course, it could also be a typo. The NYC entries on NamUs are notoriously bare bones, so there's not much to go on.

JudysSisterMaureen
04-22-2014, 01:48 PM
I hope that this girl gets her identity back soon. The standard DNA sampling did not produce anything, and I haven't heard anything back on the nuclear DNA sampling - my gut is telling me that they may never be able to extract DNA from her. :(

JudysSisterMaureen
04-22-2014, 01:53 PM
more from article...

That year, the city set a record for murder as drug-fueled slayings pushed the number of homicides to an unheard of 1,896.

Gardiner had hoped that the serial number on the watch might identify a buyer, but he struck out there.

But in February, he learned the digits were randomly assigned for insurance purposes and not linked to the watchmakers customers.

A month later the detective moved on to the ring on the victim's pinky.

Gardiner asked the FBI for anyone reported missing in the United States with a birth date after 1958 and the initials "PMcG", the initials inscribed on the ring. He eliminated all 11 names because of their race, age or other factors.

Last April, detectives plowed through a list of 500 women arrested nationwide with the same initials. All but five have been ruled out.

But there's always a chance the ring bears the initials of someone other than its wearer.

My grandmother's name was Phyllis McGrorty.

shadowdancer
04-22-2014, 04:30 PM
Wow, this takes it in a whole different direction. I can't believe this was never used in the connection before. Amazing sleuthing

"The Scene" in the late 60's was a rock club, considered to be the original Studi 54, frquented by Andy Warhol and his entourage (edie sedgwick, etc)

Instead of the prostitute/runaway theory, she could be a groupie type, kind of like Penny Lane from Almost Famous

Haunting echos of Judith here.....

My love to you Maureen, and your family. I hope that they can give you an answer on this one. DNA technology improves all the time. There is always hope, even when we having nothing else.

alllads
04-24-2014, 11:07 AM
I wonder how firm they are on the later-than-1992 date.

emeraldine
05-30-2014, 05:34 PM
I wonder how firm they are on the later-than-1992 date.

Me too. My "gut feeling" has always been that the crime was committed earlier than they said it was, not later...

That said, it would make a lot more sense for it to have happened more recently, because the building(which they just demolished) became increasingly deserted as time went by.

I think tenants were still occupying a couple of the less run-down apartments until a few years ago, when the building was sold and they had to be evicted to allow for the new construction they're now in the process of building a foundation for.

As others have mentioned in several places I've seen this case discussed, this was clearly a professional hit - it took some planning, and it also required either the permission or ignorance of anyone who might have been in charge of the building or its maintenance(extreme ignorance, I'd think, given how involved the burial was, and how much time it probably took).

Because they found rat poison, I wonder if there are any records of high-profile trials between 1992 and 2002 for which a key witness never showed up. I say high-profile because someone probably had to pay a lot of money to make this happen. Tons of work went into ensuring she wasn't going to be found, so I think it's probably a case in which either the criminal or the victim is/was a well-known person(or associated with one).

I think it's weird that people automatically assume that her glittery clothing and pantyhose would make her a prostitute...if anything, I'd assume she had expensive taste, or just liked to go clubbing. She might have gotten into drugs, and it might have messed up her teeth.

SilentSleuth
11-07-2014, 10:10 PM
There's now a NCMEC page for this UID. I am so happy, a lot of NYC cases were added that should've been there a long time ago.

http://www.missingkids.com/poster/NCMU/1107110/1#poster

http://www.missingkids.com/photographs/NCMU1107110c1.jpg