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BlueCrab
04-03-2004, 10:13 AM
During the 1998 interviews Patsy was asked if she knew any of the people whose names were about to be read to her, and if so what did she know about them. Here's the list of names. If there's no comment following the name it means there was no response by Patsy. I have paraphrased most of the responses for the sake of brevity. In some cases the names are phonetically pronounced:

ADULTS

Manfred Thornton

Dale Flint -- "That rings a bell."

Daniel Melifit

Chris Wolf -- "I have heard his name."

Rob Clemens

Brian Gilmore

Edwin Danover

Jack Logan

Otto Riggata

Richard Lichtenhill

Michael Rightson

Ron Bloom

Gary Oliva

Rodney Wilson

Frank Harrell

Isaac Webster

Jeffrey Simpson

Keith Brown

Thomas Silvie

Ray Fitzgerald -- "He is the master at the Cancer Institute at Bethesda."

Michael Helgoth

Donald Bartlett

Gilberto Rubio -- "He made the gingerbread house. He's been in our house."

Bob Wallace -- "He did floral decorations for the house in 1994."

Brian Perry -- "He's the church sexton and custodian. He didn't keep the place clean so I complained about his work. He lived free on church property and had an art studio under the church."

NEIGHBORHOOD CHILDREN

Luke Vermeil -- "We called him Big Luke (we called Luke Fernie Little Luke). He was goodlooking and soft-spoken. JonBenet had a crush on him and would get flushed when he was around. Luke played with Burke and JonBenet, but he was older so I sort of kept an eyeball there."

Wes Gibbons -- "He was about 2 years older than Burke and he and some other boys would congregate in the house after school to play video games and such."

Evan Colby -- "He was about one year older than Burke. He spent a lot of time and made himself at home in our house, and helped himself to things in the refrigerator."

Kai Colby -- "He was about three years older than Burke. The Colby boys spent a lot of time at our house."

EDITED: Joey Stanton -- "He was about Burke's age. He used to come over and play."

EDITED: Fleet White -- "He was about Burke's age and they lived two doors up the street. They moved out prior to December of 1996."

Several of the names, of course (like Wolf, Oliva, and Helgoth), we now know a lot about, but most of them are obscure to us. Why the cops listed these names to inquire about isn't publicly known, but if anyone has any additional tidbits of info about any of them it might make an interesting discussion.

JMO

EDITED to add Joey Stanton and Fleet White to the list.

Nehemiah
04-03-2004, 02:42 PM
Interesting thread, BC.

Is Toth's "Flippy Esso" alias one of the names you listed?

IMO

BlueCrab
04-03-2004, 03:19 PM
Interesting thread, BC.

Is Toth's "Flippy Esso" alias one of the names you listed?

IMO

Nehemiah,

I've never heard of Toth's "Flippy Esso". I guess I missed it, if you're joking. Can you give us a little more info? I'm slow.

JMO

sissi
04-03-2004, 05:40 PM
When Mike Mcelroy was interviewed he was asked if he knew
Kim Mckloskey
Jason Mueller
Robin Hale
and another that I will remember ..
His comment was..they show no interest in following up on these people ..but this is your heads up..in his "heads up " letter.
Just what was the purpose of the BPD to "throw" around names ?
IMO

Ivy
04-03-2004, 06:16 PM
BC, "Flippy Esso" is the nickname Toth gave a man who once did some painting in the Ramseys' basement. Toth thinks he might be the "intruder."

Post 85 on page 4 of the "Question re Ransom Note" thread by poco.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ivy
The painter... Spoofy Popo? Snarky Bimbam? Darn, what was his WS nickname? Toth, what did you name him to protect his identity? Anyway, twilight, I don't know if the painter's palm print was checked, but apparently it doesn't matter if Melinda's was a match to the basement door palm print.

Toth's response: I named him "Flippy Esso" which is a moniker I hung on him because a psychiatric social worker described him as having "flipped out" soon after the murder and he was known as a Sex Offender, which is where the SO (esso) came from. Everyone knows his initials, many know his first name, everyone knows how many letters are in his surname but he is to be referred to as Flippy Esso. Even suspected creeps may have turned their lives around in the interim and do not deserve to be dragged through the mud needlessly.

by the way, the palm print has not been matched to ANY person: male, female, young, old, tall, short, fat or thin.

IMO (The IMO is Ivy's, not Toth's, but I guess that goes without saying.)

sissi
04-03-2004, 07:05 PM
Toth is right about the palm print,there were several and one has not been matched to anyone,but a little known swipe with odd placement was one reason behind the late tracing of Jonbenet's hand.
We have,to my knowledge no other information concerning this swipe,only conjecture that it would be at a level indicating she was alive ,alert and being carried ,if indeed it was her hand.
The hair ,the print and the shoe print have NOT been matched to a Ramsey.
The list of people is disturbing,not the lists above ,but the list of "whacos" involved in the life of Jonbenet. I hope all of you have read Singular's book,not that he has it right,but within all of the books there is likely a hint of what really happened.
Beckner said "this isn't how it looks",Simon says,"I know what happened but have no insider knowledge"?,Priscilla tells Patsy," I know more"...
What was going on in Boulder?
Gaffer's tape ! maybe this is the clue?
IMO

Shylock
04-03-2004, 11:50 PM
Toth is right about the palm print,there were several and one has not been matched to anyone
Toth right???...NEVER!

A palm print on the door leading to that same wine cellar, long unidentified, is that of Melinda Ramsey, JonBenet's adult half-sister. She was in Georgia at the time of the murder.
L. Lin Wood, the attorney representing the Ramseys, who now live in Atlanta, doesn't debate the palm print findings.
http://www.rockymountainnews.com/drmn/state/article/0,1299,DRMN_21_1342847,00.html

sissi
04-04-2004, 12:23 AM
IMO this story was misleading,yet not totally false. If there were four prints on that door,and one was identified as Melinda's a reporter would have the right to report it as a headline,"print on door belongs to Melinda Ramsey,however he would not have to reveal that there was at least one unidentified print that remains a mystery.

He does have his sources..doesn't he.......His first "story" caused a nation to suspect an innocent family.

'Snow at Ramsey House Lacked Footprints' by Charlie Brennan, Rocky Mountain News, March 11, 1997, 'Police who went to JonBenet Ramsey's home the morning she was reported missing found no footprints in the snow surrounding the house, sources said Monday.
IMO

Shylock
04-04-2004, 06:24 AM
His first "story" caused a nation to suspect an innocent family.

Since that "innocent" family remains the only suspects in the crime, I would say that reporter was pretty damn clairvoyant.

BlueCrab
04-04-2004, 09:12 AM
'Snow at Ramsey House Lacked Footprints' by Charlie Brennan, Rocky Mountain News, March 11, 1997, 'Police who went to JonBenet Ramsey's home the morning she was reported missing found no footprints in the snow surrounding the house, sources said Monday.
IMO

The police report (Sgt. Reichenbach) and reporter Charlie Brennan were correct.

There WAS snow surrounding the house, and there were NO footprints in the snow. But that's a tricky statement. It was a dusting of snow that fell early that morning and was on top of patchy crusty snow that had been on the ground for days. Even though the temperature was about 10 degrees, the dusting apparently began to melt in places even before the sun came up because of the warmth in the ground.

By daylight the dusting was gone and only the crusty patches of melting snow remained. Depending on what time the dusting began to melt, a fifth person in the house that night could have escaped and not have left any footprints by stepping only on the melted areas and avoiding areas still covered by snow. Reichenbach's statement said "There was a very light dusting of snow and frost on the exposed grass in the yard". The wording leaves it unclear whether the dusting still covered all of the yard or whether some had already melted by 6:00 A.M. when he had arrived. In either event, Reichenbach said he saw no footprints in the snow.

JMO

Ivy
04-04-2004, 12:21 PM
BlueCrab, a while back you posted that tire tracks that might have been from a bicycle were found in snow in the Ramseys' front yard. Anything new on that, as far as you know?

imo

Shylock
04-04-2004, 02:25 PM
NEIGHBORHOOD CHILDREN

I wonder where LE would have gotten a list of kid's names that they wouldn't have known who they were. Or did they know who these kids were and just want to see how Patsy responded to them bringing their names up?

Spade
04-04-2004, 03:48 PM
Shylock-The list of names came from the April 1997 BPD interviews.

Ivy- The bicycle track reference came from John Ramsey's 1998 interview with Lou Smit. Smit showed Ramsey a picture taken by the BPD early in the morning of of 12/26/96. I have never seen any other reference to the bike tracks.

BlueCrab
04-05-2004, 09:53 AM
BlueCrab, a while back you posted that tire tracks that might have been from a bicycle were found in snow in the Ramseys' front yard. Anything new on that, as far as you know?


Nothing new that I know about. There definitely were bicycle tracks in the snow across the front lawn. Both John and Patsy attribute the tracks to the likelihood of Burke riding his bike there on Christmas Day. Patsy said JonBenet rode her new bike only on the back patio.

PATSY (reviewing crime scene photos): "This is the yard, the front yard. I see tracks here in the snow."

TOM HANEY: "Do you know what would have caused that?"

PATSY: "I don't know, unless Burke rode his bicycle out there."

In one version of my theory about a fifth person in the house that night, I theorized that the perp escaped by bicycle, leaving tracks across the front lawn. Although possible, I don't think Burke would have ridden his bike in the snow. Also, Patsy had gotten a new bike for Christmas (as had John and JonBenet, but not Burke) and it may have been stolen the night of the murder. It's hard to determine for sure, but here's how the questioning went:

LOU SMIT: "You know, I've looked at a lot of pictures in regards to this particular case and I can't remember seeing any bikes. What happened to the bikes?"

JOHN RAMSEY: "Well, they were in the garage, I guess. JonBenet rode her bike for a moment outside before we went to the White's; just around the patio. I'm sure that went back in the garage. Patsy's bike, I don't know, it could have gone in the garage. I don't remember."

LOU SMIT: Have you seen it since, Patsy's bike?"

JOHN RAMSEY: "Yeah, we have it."

LOU SMIT: "(inaudible) took it?"

JOHN RAMSEY: "No. We gave JonBenet's bike away. Patsy's bike we haven't (inaudible)."

JMO

BlueCrab
04-05-2004, 10:25 AM
Okay, WHO is Richard? Tom Haney was showing pictures of black shirts to Patsy:

PATSY: "And this was Rich's shirt. (inaudible) shirt. Richard's shirt."

TOM HANEY: "Okay. And would you have known which one John would have worn that night?"

PATSY: "No. These are, you know, (inaudible) black."

TOM HANEY: "Sure."


There was a Richard Lichtenhill (sp?) on the list the cops used to question Patsy to find out if she recognized any of the names and to comment on the person if she did recognize a name. When it came to Richard Lichtenhill's name Patsy said "No". So who is Richard? And why did Patsy so easily recognize a picture of a black shirt in a photograph as belonging to Richard?

The list of names were asked of Patsy on day one of the 1998 interviews. The comment about Richard's black shirt was made by Patsy on day three of the 1998 interviews.

Was this another slip of the tongue by Patsy? Who is Richard, and was his name intended to be kept incognito? Is he Richard Lichtenhill?

JMO

Jayelles
04-05-2004, 02:25 PM
That is bizarre. Well researched BC.

why_nutt
04-05-2004, 03:12 PM
I wonder whether some of these names are slightly-misheard phonetic spellings. I find no record of a Lichtenhill as a name anywhere at all in the country, but there was a Richard Lichtenheld who had an address in Denver in 1996 and can be found nowadays working as a real estate agent. There are other Lichtenhelds to be found in 1996 in Colorado. With Patsy's love for houseshopping and Mike Bynum's job as a real-estate attorney, Richard Lichtenheld could credibly be the person mentioned and also be someone Patsy would have come into contact with at some point.

BlueCrab
04-05-2004, 03:27 PM
I wonder whether some of these names are slightly-misheard phonetic spellings. I find no record of a Lichtenhill as a name anywhere at all in the country, but there was a Richard Lichtenheld who had an address in Denver in 1996 and can be found nowadays working as a real estate agent. There are other Lichtenhelds to be found in 1996 in Colorado. With Patsy's love for houseshopping and Mike Bynum's job as a real-estate attorney, Richard Lichtenheld could credibly be the person mentioned and also be someone Patsy would have come into contact with at some point.


Thank you why_nut. Excellent follow-up. Richard Lichtenheld sounds like a very strong possibility as being "Richard".

Now, I wonder why Patsy was able to readily recognize Richard's black shirt from a photograph as belonging to him?

JMO

Nehemiah
04-05-2004, 03:42 PM
http://websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1943

Toth's "Flippy Esso"'s initials are apparently "DK".

IMO

why_nutt
04-05-2004, 04:47 PM
There definitely were bicycle tracks in the snow across the front lawn. Both John and Patsy attribute the tracks to the likelihood of Burke riding his bike there on Christmas Day. Patsy said JonBenet rode her new bike only on the back patio.

I believe you can see bike tracks in the snow in the footage of JonBenet's body being brought out of the house. There seem to be such tracks in this shot, but they do not have parallel sets of footprints inbetween where a person walking behind a gurney would have made prints, so the gurney would tend to be eliminated as a source.

http://s92053900.onlinehome.us/snowtracks.jpg

Toltec
04-05-2004, 05:58 PM
Those tracks seem too close for tire tracks...they look more like tracks from a gurney.

Why would Lou Smit question John in regards to bicycles? The police took both still and video pictures of the entire Ramsey home. What if Patsy's bike was missing? Burkes? Johns? JonBenets?

The only person mentioned as having rode their bike is JonBenet. It was a new bike so she most likely anxious to try it out.

BlueCrab
04-05-2004, 07:00 PM
Why would Lou Smit question John in regards to bicycles?

Both John and Patsy were questioned about their bikes and the bike tracks in the snow across the front lawn. They said the tracks were probably from Burke. My guess is the cops were interested in whether or not a person could have exited the house in the middle of the night and escaped by bicycle.

John and Patsy have both stated that JonBenet didn't ride her bike in the snow in the front yard, and had stayed on the patio in the back of the house. So the tracks could have been made by either Burke or a non-family member.

JMO

BlueCrab
04-07-2004, 07:29 AM
Richard Bjelkovig is a possibility for Patsy's "That's Richard's shirt" comment. Bjelkovig was the Ramsey's co-pilot. Mike Archuleta was the Ramseys pilot.

JMO

Nehemiah
04-07-2004, 08:33 AM
BC, where in the NE book are the names listed? I was looking for them last night, to no avail. Thanks.

IMO

BlueCrab
04-07-2004, 09:21 AM
BC, where in the NE book are the names listed? I was looking for them last night, to no avail. Thanks.

IMO


They may not be in there. The NE book has incomplete info on some subjects, particularly stuff involving Burke.

JMO

Toth
04-07-2004, 01:26 PM
Nehemiah,

I've never heard of Toth's "Flippy Esso". I guess I missed it, if you're joking. Can you give us a little more info? I'm slow.

JMO

Flippy: because a psychiatric social worker described him as having "flipped out" shortly after the murder.

Esso: because "SO" is also the abbreviation for Sexual Offender.

Flippy Esso is supposed to have worn, unknown to the Ramseys, an electronic ankle bracelet that would prove he was at home at nights while he was spending his days painting the Ramsey basement for one of the subcontractors during a remodel job of the Ramsey home.

Ivy
04-07-2004, 02:03 PM
Has Flippy's DNA been compared to the "mystery" DNA in the database? If not, why not?

imo

Nehemiah
04-07-2004, 03:36 PM
Has Flippy's DNA been compared to the "mystery" DNA in the database? If not, why not?

imo

I'd like to know that, also, Ivy. Toth, you have said before that lots was going on in this "investigation". Can you update us on any of these things?

IMO

Toth
04-07-2004, 05:57 PM
No updates presently available.
As for Flippy Esso, Some know his full name, everyone knows his initials, Most know his first name and everyone knows the number of characters in his last name: so using that information you can find out that there is no official indication that his dna was taken or tested in reference to the JonBenet Ramsey murder. Whether it was actually done but not recorded, I do not know.
Those who live near Boulder can check public records easily, but as far as I am concerned his name is Flippy Esso and there is no need to subject him to a media barrage if he has turned his life around. If he hasn't, still no need to harass him.

Ivy
04-08-2004, 10:37 PM
Flippy sounds like an excellent candidate for DNA testing in the JonBenet case, so I'd like to know if a sample of his DNA has been taken and compared to the sample in the database. If it hasn't been, the re-investigation should be publically exposed for what it is...a sham.

imo

Nehemiah
04-09-2004, 09:11 AM
Exactly, Ivy. It's been more than a year and people are still throwing around the BPD's name as if they are responsible at this point for the investigation. We heard promises that the new investigation was going to do all these things....yet, have they? Is there any way to find out?

IMO

BlueCrab
04-09-2004, 09:36 AM
Exactly, Ivy. It's been more than a year and people are still throwing around the BPD's name as if they are responsible at this point for the investigation. We heard promises that the new investigation was going to do all these things....yet, have they? Is there any way to find out?

IMO


Mary Keenan hasn't done squat with the investigation because, IMO, they already know who killed JonBenet. They've known it since the Ramsey GJ disbanded in October of 1999. The Ramseys and certain others should agree to let the truth come out, allow forgivenesses to occur from all around, and bring the case to an amicable close.

JMO

Toth
04-09-2004, 11:14 AM
Actually, renewed activity involving a person previously reported to the Ramsey investigators and via those investigators to the BPD has been engaged in by the DA-Keenan team. The DA's investigator re-opened a file on one particular suspect within the last two weeks. No further info available at this time though.

Jayelles
04-09-2004, 11:27 AM
Actually, renewed activity involving a person previously reported to the Ramsey investigators and via those investigators to the BPD has been engaged in by the DA-Keenan team. The DA's investigator re-opened a file on one particular suspect within the last two weeks. No further info available at this time though.

Did Lou Smit share this with Summer when they lunched together? He's skating on very thin ice there. Summer was clear that Keenan and ******* wouldn't answer her questions about the Ramsey case. She didn't say the same of Smit.

Toth
04-09-2004, 02:54 PM
Did Lou Smit share this with Summer when they lunched together? He's skating on very thin ice there. Summer was clear that Keenan and ******* wouldn't answer her questions about the Ramsey case. She didn't say the same of Smit.
NO.
First of all, Lou Smit is a "one-way information pipeline": information about an investigation flows TO him from the various internet posters and never to them.

My source on this is indirect, but the story seems to be that the individual had been a long way down on the list but has recently been "promoted" a few slots due to some information that had been given to the BPD but was not accorded the value that it should have been.

Nehemiah
04-09-2004, 02:58 PM
NO.
First of all, Lou Smit is a "one-way information pipeline": information about an investigation flows TO him from the various internet posters and never to them.

My source on this is indirect, but the story seems to be that the individual had been a long way down on the list but has recently been "promoted" a few slots due to some information that had been given to the BPD but was not accorded the value that it should have been.

And I would guess this to be the infamous "Bootman"?

IMO

Jayelles
04-09-2004, 03:01 PM
NO.
First of all, Lou Smit is a "one-way information pipeline": information about an investigation flows TO him from the various internet posters and never to them.



That is not true. We know for a fact that he shared information with *******. She more than hinted as such on many occasions.

Nehemiah
04-09-2004, 03:04 PM
That is not true. We know for a fact that he shared information with *******. She more than hinted as such on many occasions.

Surely ******* wouldn't embellish.

Toth
04-09-2004, 03:04 PM
And I would guess this to be the infamous "Bootman"?
No, Bootman a/k/a Helgoth is dead.

Nehemiah
04-09-2004, 03:06 PM
No, Bootman a/k/a Helgoth is dead.

Yes, I'm aware of that fact.

IMO

Jayelles
04-09-2004, 03:07 PM
Surely ******* wouldn't embellish.

Well I suppose it's a posibility!

Toth
04-09-2004, 03:08 PM
Flippy sounds like an excellent candidate for DNA testing in the JonBenet case, so I'd like to know if a sample of his DNA has been taken and compared to the sample in the database. If it hasn't been, the re-investigation should be publically exposed for what it is...a sham.
I've no idea if his dna has been sampled or tested. There is even some question as to whether he had been convicted of an offense or was merely admitted to bail and restricted to his home at nights while awaiting trial. I am not in Colorado and can not go view the court records. Posters who live in or near Boulder do not seem to have contributed to the Flippy Esso thread.
Please note: That thread was an attempt to place all the information about Flippy Esso in one place, it was not then and is not now to be taken as an indication that I hold a belief that he was the intruder who killed JonBenet Ramsey. He should have been a suspect, but I don't think he was ever considered to be one.

Nehemiah
04-09-2004, 03:10 PM
Well I suppose it's a posibility!
:clap:

IMO

Nehemiah
04-09-2004, 03:13 PM
I've no idea if his dna has been sampled or tested. There is even some question as to whether he had been convicted of an offense or was merely admitted to bail and restricted to his home at nights while awaiting trial. I am not in Colorado and can not go view the court records. Posters who live in or near Boulder do not seem to have contributed to the Flippy Esso thread.
Please note: That thread was an attempt to place all the information about Flippy Esso in one place, it was not then and is not now to be taken as an indication that I hold a belief that he was the intruder who killed JonBenet Ramsey. He should have been a suspect, but I don't think he was ever considered to be one.

So, can you give us a hint of who this "possible" suspect is?

IMO

BlueCrab
04-10-2004, 01:29 AM
So, can you give us a hint of who this "possible" suspect is?

IMO

Nehemiah,

From the 1998 interviews:

LOU SMIT: "When was the painting done?"

JOHN RAMSEY: "Oh, it was finished just before that Boulder Home Tour, the Historic Home Tour, which I think was in '94. And the painting went on for years."

LOU SMIT: "And who was the painter?"

JOHN RAMSEY: "Jay Pedopiece."

So is Jay Pedopiece Toth's "Flippy Esso"?

JM

Nehemiah
04-10-2004, 02:25 PM
Those weren't the initials floating around a couple of months ago....but it sure sounds like it could be the guy.

Toth, perhaps you are talking about Pachaly?

IMO

Toth
04-10-2004, 04:07 PM
Those weren't the initials floating around a couple of months ago....but it sure sounds like it could be the guy.
Toth, perhaps you are talking about Pachaly?No. Not Pachaly! And if you look at the Flippy Esso thread you will see what his intiials are and what his first name is.
He may or may not still be a creep, but as far as I am concerned his name is Flippy Esso.
He was not the only painter and it was a co-worker who initially reported him as having worn an ankle bracelet.


Please note: my purpose in starting that thread was just to collect all the information about him in one place and to have any forum members who live in Boulder go get the official records and post them in the thread. I did not then and do not now consider Flippy Esso to be the intruder who killed JonBenet Ramsey.

Nehemiah
04-10-2004, 05:40 PM
Back to the original topic of the thread. And to answer my own question, no, Flippy Esso's real initials do not appear in the list posted by BlueCrab. Apparently Flippy's initials are DK.

IMO

BlueCrab
04-10-2004, 07:03 PM
Back to the original topic of the thread. And to answer my own question, no, Flippy Esso's real initials do not appear in the list posted by BlueCrab. Apparently Flippy's initials are DK.

IMO


There was a Bob Wallace who did handyman type of work for the Ramseys around 1994 to 1996.

LOU SMIT: "Did he have a friend that would come with him occasionally?

JOHN RAMSEY: (inaudible).

LOU SMIT: "And I've never been able to locate that friend's name."

JOHN RAMSEY: "I think he was the guy that did the gingerbread house."

LOU SMIT: "But it seemed to me like he was -- "

JOHN RAMSEY: "Well, they were both gay."

So, were one of these guys Toth's "Flippy Esso"?

JMO

K777angel
04-11-2004, 11:47 AM
So you think now it was some 'handyman'?
Gee, maybe Dorothy Allison was right! :eek:
LOL!!

BlueCrab
04-11-2004, 01:36 PM
And if you look at the Flippy Esso thread you will see what his intiials are and what his first name is.


Please stop talking cryptograhically and in circles. What the hell is his name and where is the "Flippy Esso" thread?

JMO

Ivy
04-11-2004, 01:56 PM
Quit picking on my sweetie Toth, BC. He can't help it. ;)

A link to Toth's Flippy Esso thread ("Flippy Esso: what do we know?") is given in Nehemiah's Post #19 on Page 1 of this thread.

imo

BlueCrab
04-11-2004, 04:35 PM
Quit picking on my sweetie Toth, BC. He can't help it. ;)

A link to Toth's Flippy Esso thread ("Flippy Esso: what do we know?") is given in Nehemiah's Post #19 on Page 1 of this thread.

imo


Gerald Elkins is the only name I get out of that link.

And what's this business calling Toth your "sweetie"? I thought we had a discreet understanding. (Just no honor among we beer can collectors I guess.)

JMO

Toth
04-11-2004, 04:44 PM
So, were one of these guys Toth's "Flippy Esso"?
No. Neither was.

BlueCrab
04-12-2004, 09:09 AM
No. Neither was.

Then Flippy Esso is Gerald Elkins. Correct?

JMO

why_nutt
04-12-2004, 09:40 AM
Then Flippy Esso is Gerald Elkins. Correct?

JMO

This is who Toth wants us to pretend is "Flippy Esso." The public record being what it is, we are obviously free to discuss whatever names appear in it, as they are presented in that record and not only as Toth prefers.

5 THE WITNESS: Well, I started to
6 talk about Dennis K****, which interested me
7 because this is a note from a guy in Boulder
8 who lived near K**** who apparently painted
9 our basement in either '95 or 1996. He's a
10 fairly dysfunctional fellow. I don't know if
11 you know his name or not.
12 Q. (By Chief Beckner) When you say
13 dysfunctional, what do you mean?
14 A. Well, I can give you copies of
15 these things, but he was wearing an ankle
16 monitor when he was painting our basement,
17 apparently. I don't know how this was
18 known, but obviously he was supposed to be
19 on a restricted duty.
20 MR. TRUJILLO: Mr. Ramsey, are
21 you speaking of Mr. K**** as the person who
22 painted your basement?
23 THE WITNESS: Yes, Dennis K****.

...

2 Q. (By Ms. Harmer) Mr. Ramsey, this
3 Dennis K**** that you brought up, the
4 painter, have your investigators contacted him
5 or done any follow-up that you are aware of?
6 A. I don't know of.
7 MR. GRAY: I beg your pardon?
8 MR. WOOD: Dennis K****, any
9 follow-up on K**** yet?
10 MR. GRAY: I don't know a K****.
11 MR. WOOD: The painter.
12 MR. GRAY: Uh-uh (negative).
13 MR. WOOD: Give that to Ollie.
14 MR. GRAY: There are a couple of
15 others we followed up on, but not him.

Shylock
04-12-2004, 10:15 AM
This is who Toth wants us to pretend is "Flippy Esso." The public record being what it is, we are obviously free to discuss whatever names appear in it, as they are presented in that record and not only as Toth prefers.
And where does it state that this guy is a "sex offender"?

BlueCrab
04-12-2004, 11:30 AM
And where does it state that this guy is a "sex offender"?


And what is his full name?

It's interesting that John Ramsey knew his name but Ollie Gray apparently hadn't heard of him.

JMO

Toth
04-12-2004, 11:31 AM
And where does it state that this guy is a "sex offender"? The posters who live in or near Boulder had their opportunities during the initial days of the Flippy Esso thread to trek down to the courthouse and provide clear, explicit, factual material on what he was accused of and what he was convicted of. Such posters chose not to do that.

Toth
04-12-2004, 11:38 AM
This is who Toth wants us to pretend is "Flippy Esso." The public record being what it is, we are obviously free to discuss whatever names appear in it, as they are presented in that record and not only as Toth prefers. I've only said that I will refer to him as "Flippy Esso" and have asked others to do so for internal consistency and to avoid difficulties in exposing even dysfunctional creeps to publicity when they may be trying to turn their lives around.

I really don't know why there is all this much emphasis on his true identity, most posters know who Flippy Esso really is or atleast have sufficient information to find out fairly easily. The transcript excerpt, when posted on the Forum of Record, had asterisks inserted by the Forum Administrator.

BlueCrab
04-12-2004, 11:59 AM
I've only said that I will refer to him as "Flippy Esso" and have asked others to do so for internal consistency and to avoid difficulties in exposing even dysfunctional creeps to publicity when they may be trying to turn their lives around.

I really don't know why there is all this much emphasis on his true identity, most posters know who Flippy Esso really is or atleast have sufficient information to find out fairly easily. The transcript excerpt, when posted on the Forum of Record, had asterisks inserted by the Forum Administrator.


I don't know who he is, and I don't see why dozens of other posters should have to plow through almost endless blind alley links to find out who he is when someone on this forum already knows.

JMO

Britt
04-12-2004, 12:06 PM
:waitasec: Doesn't anyone but me wonder why the Ramseys had a dysfunctional criminal with an ankle monitor painting their home in the first place?

why_nutt
04-12-2004, 12:06 PM
I've only said that I will refer to him as "Flippy Esso" and have asked others to do so for internal consistency and to avoid difficulties in exposing even dysfunctional creeps to publicity when they may be trying to turn their lives around.

I really don't know why there is all this much emphasis on his true identity, most posters know who Flippy Esso really is or atleast have sufficient information to find out fairly easily. The transcript excerpt, when posted on the Forum of Record, had asterisks inserted by the Forum Administrator.

The dichotomy you present is that, on the one hand, you want to violate the man's privacy by posting all that is known about him, things which, when assembled in one place, will lead to being able to identify him, and on the other hand you want to deemphasize his true identity because he may have turned his life around. You cannot have it both ways. Either you want to talk about him, or you do not. Which is it?

Shylock
04-12-2004, 01:13 PM
Such posters chose not to do that.
So what is this, a NON-information thread?
I guess we are to assume that this guy is a "sex offender" because nobody went to the courthouse to look him up...sounds like swamp logic.

Shylock
04-12-2004, 01:18 PM
It's interesting that John Ramsey knew his name but Ollie Gray apparently hadn't heard of him.
Gray's response is classic! - You can just hear him thinking, "wait a minute, my job was to keep your arse out of jail, not investigate people."

Britt
04-12-2004, 02:24 PM
Gray's response is classic! - You can just hear him thinking, "wait a minute, my job was to keep your arse out of jail, not investigate people."
lol... kinda like investigator Ellis Armistead, who quit in June 2000:

"By that time, the case was being run out of Atlanta," Armistead said, referring to the Ramseys' current lawyer, L. Lin Wood. "The attorney there was telling the public that their investigators had 'startling new revelations,' and I knew that wasn't true.

"I felt it was misleading, and that's just not the way I would choose to conduct an investigation."

http://www.rockymountainnews.com/drmn/local/article/0,1299,DRMN_15_912274,00.html

Ivy
04-12-2004, 02:24 PM
I went to http://www.criminalcheck.com/sxowebsite/CriminalCheck.jsp and checked all of Boulder's zip codes to see if DK a.k.a. Flippy Esso is a registered sex offender in Boulder, but he isn't listed. Where did he commit his crime? We don't know he's a sex offender, do we, or that he assaulted children?

imo

Britt
04-12-2004, 02:31 PM
So what is this, a NON-information thread?
Actually, it's a RED HERRING thread.

I guess we are to assume that this guy is a "sex offender" because nobody went to the courthouse to look him up...sounds like swamp logic.
Not to mention Classic Ramsey Strategy: Hey, lookie over there! Staging 101.

Nehemiah
04-12-2004, 04:04 PM
The posters who live in or near Boulder had their opportunities during the initial days of the Flippy Esso thread to trek down to the courthouse and provide clear, explicit, factual material on what he was accused of and what he was convicted of. Such posters chose not to do that.

So those of us who live no where near Boulder are going to be punished for what they chose not to do? IOW, you have the info but aren't going to to share it for that reason? This is turning out much like the Flippy Esso thread that is archived.

IMO

Toth
04-12-2004, 08:42 PM
I'm not punishing anyone. Long ago, I posted about Flippy Esso and others posted the DK initials and the first name and spend alot of time obsessing about his identity when all they had to do was adopt the moniker "Flippy Esso" to discuss the case and rely on the few Colorado area posters to go to the courthouse and post the full information.

Remember, this started with a co-worker's accusation and the private detectives followed up on that. My understanding is that there was merely an accusation of activity with a girl who was technically under age but not a young child and that the ankle monitoring was for him to be admitted to bail pending resolution of the charges. I don't know if there ever was a conviction for this or not.

At the time of the painting, the Ramseys did not know the man was wearing an ankle bracelet.

My understanding is that Lin Wood questioned John Ramsey on his knowledge of the man and the ankle bracelet and that during that questioning Lin Wood asked specifically about the named individual which is probably why John Ramsey was familiar with the name.

This was a lead that was not turned up by the BPD at all. As were many: such as Thomas Aquinas.