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ShouldBWorking
08-10-2008, 06:15 PM
We have a case in Ohio (30 miles from my house) where there was a conviction without a body, anyone know others would like to hope there is a chance if Caylee isn't found alive that Casey will pay.

Facts (http://www.findcarrieculberson.com/quickfacts.html)

Justice For Vince (http://www.justiceforvincent.com/)

Web Sleuth (http://websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=6572)

JBean
08-10-2008, 06:27 PM
Good thread, I have been thinking about this.

I am just not sure she could be convicted. My fear is that if she should be acquitted and then in the future they find the child, she can't be tried again.

At this point, I find this to be a tough call. But we do not have all the facts either.

SusieClue
08-10-2008, 06:29 PM
I think I heard one lawyer on the news say - there is no doubt that she would be convicted as is...it is the appeal that we have to worry about...

ShouldBWorking
08-10-2008, 06:47 PM
I think I heard one lawyer on the news say - there is no doubt that she would be convicted as is...it is the appeal that we have to worry about...

do you have a link for this would love to read that article my fear is she will walk at this point with a few years

Chilly Willy
08-10-2008, 06:50 PM
I think I heard one lawyer on the news say - there is no doubt that she would be convicted as is...it is the appeal that we have to worry about...

But convicted of what? If the "sources" are correct, LE is leaning toward accidental death as a possibility. It's possible that Casey wouldn't even do jail time for that.

ShouldBWorking
08-10-2008, 06:52 PM
But convicted of what? If the "sources" are correct, LE is leaning toward accidental death as a possibility. It's possible that Casey wouldn't even do jail time for that.


I thought someone here said just for the current charges she could be sentenced to 6 years. Am I wrong?

SusieClue
08-10-2008, 07:01 PM
do you have a link for this would love to read that article my fear is she will walk at this point with a few years

HMMM...I saw it on Fox, so I will look for a link for a transcript...may take awhile!

Chilly Willy
08-10-2008, 07:07 PM
I thought someone here said just for the current charges she could be sentenced to 6 years. Am I wrong?

Could is the key word - we'd have to know what the minimum sentence is, and then there's also the possibility of a plea to a lesser charge that might simply result in probation.

ETA: Often the sentences for various charges run concurrently too, for instance if she got 3 years for charge A and three years for charge B, she would still only serve 3 years, or less with good behavior.

krimekat
08-10-2008, 07:13 PM
google murder convictions without body and there are many examples of cases being sought

ShouldBWorking
08-10-2008, 07:20 PM
Florida case (http://www.sptimes.com/2002/02/24/Hernando/No_body_makes_murder_.shtml) with another child

luvbeaches
08-10-2008, 11:38 PM
Richard Grissom is now serving his time in a Kansas Prison for the murders of three women (their bodies have never been found). Paul Morrison was the prosecutor.

http://www2.ljworld.com/news/2005/jan/09/serial_killers_make/

LinasK
08-11-2008, 08:24 PM
Hans Reiser was just convicted of murder of his wife Nina, without the body, then he gave it up upon sentencing!:behindbar:behindbar:behindbar

In Hans's case there was blood on the banister, also he cut the seat out of his car, they found books on murder in his car, and his son witnessed him carrying out a big, heavy bag.

coltsgal
08-11-2008, 08:30 PM
Didn't she say "They've already said they're going to pin this on me if they dont find Caylee" ???

IMO, if Caylee was safe somewhere, she would give it up, otherwise she knows she's facing a murder trial. Since she hasn't said where Caylee is...well, that only leaves us to assume the latter.

deejaye
08-11-2008, 08:34 PM
Helle Crafts, the woodchipper murder comes to mind. Although I guess technically they found (forgive the crassness) a few bits of her.

There's another one that I think was convicted after the FBI did research on a blood stain found at the scene. After they couldn't get DNA, they experiemented to see how much blood it would've taken to get that big of a stain and once it was determined that there was more blood comprising that stain than a human could lose and survive, they had their "body", in a manner of speaking.

impatientredhead
08-11-2008, 08:40 PM
Helle Crafts, the woodchipper murder comes to mind. Although I guess technically they found (forgive the crassness) a few bits of her.

There's another one that I think was convicted after the FBI did research on a blood stain found at the scene. After they couldn't get DNA, they experiemented to see how much blood it would've taken to get that big of a stain and once it was determined that there was more blood comprising that stain than a human could lose and survive, they had their "body", in a manner of speaking.

I have spent a ton of time trying to find the answer to whether they can determine if the stain came from dead body, it appears that the answer is they can get DNA but they can't say it came from a body. The only cases I could find were three like you mention, they found so much blood the person couldn't be alive. It doesn't sound like this stain is that big.

The other cases I found that didn't have a body had other incriminating evidence, like witnesses etc...

The air test that they were talking about this morning is newer technology and hasn't been used/challenged in court yet. Hopefully the evidence they haven't shared is really good, or my research skills suck and you can determine if a stain came from a body.

deejaye
08-11-2008, 08:49 PM
I have spent a ton of time trying to find the answer to whether they can determine if the stain came from dead body, it appears that the answer is they can get DNA but they can't say it came from a body. The only cases I could find were three like you mention, they found so much blood the person couldn't be alive. It doesn't sound like this stain is that big.

The other cases I found that didn't have a body had other incriminating evidence, like witnesses etc...

The air test that they were talking about this morning is newer technology and hasn't been used/challenged in court yet. Hopefully the evidence they haven't shared is really good, or my research skills suck and you can determine if a stain came from a body.


I did find some information on the sniffer that might be interesting...of course I can't find the link again. From what I know, it can be "taught" to look for any odor. Kind of like, you tell it what you're looking for and then it looks for a smell that matches. I'm pretty sure it was developed by Arpad Vass and that it has been used in court for other odors. You may be correct, however, that it has not been tested in court for decomp.

GatorMom
08-12-2008, 06:45 AM
Thomas Campano is serving life (his dp was overturned on appeal) for the murder of Anne Marie Fahey. Her body was never found. And he is much smarter than this twit sitting in the Orange County Jail and his attorneys were much better than this Jose Whateverhisnameis.

I have no doubt that Casey Anthony would be convicted w/o a body. I do believe LE has more than they are saying (I always believe that). I am starting to think this theory of an accidental death is just their way of lulling Casey into a false sense of security so she will admit to what happened *because there is no way that woman is innocent* of killing her child. No way.

Bruce's_Mom
08-13-2008, 10:56 AM
My concern is that without the body, with out the cause of death, with out a weapon, without a motive other than that she wanted to party, etc the circumstantial chain will not be strong enough on appeal.

Does anyone know if FL has a homicide by abuse or depraved indifference murder statute? Here in WA a person can be fould guilty of "Homicide by abuse,"which is something more than manslaughter but less than man1 or 2, if "under circumstances manifesting an extreme indifference to human life, the person causes the death of a child or person under sixteen years of age." Such a statute may provide a more safe charging option.

I am worried in this case that the family has behaved in such a way that many wrenches have been thrown into the investigation, that we do not even know about, that could rise to the level of constitutional problems. I am worried that all the media coverage has tainted any possible jury verdict, I am worried about the reliability of the body farm testing and whether or not it will stand up to daubert and be admissible. I just am plain worried.

Bruce's_Mom
08-13-2008, 11:01 AM
I have spent a ton of time trying to find the answer to whether they can determine if the stain came from dead body, it appears that the answer is they can get DNA but they can't say it came from a body. The only cases I could find were three like you mention, they found so much blood the person couldn't be alive. It doesn't sound like this stain is that big.


There are fluids which may be in the stain unique to human decomposition. Upon putrafecation fluids with such lovely names as putrazine and cadaverine may be excreted. These could not come from a live body. It would really depend on the level of decomposition that occured in the car.

LinasK
08-13-2008, 03:27 PM
My concern is that without the body, with out the cause of death, with out a weapon, without a motive other than that she wanted to party, etc the circumstantial chain will not be strong enough on appeal.


Hans Reiser was convicted without a body or a weapon. Scott Peterson was convicted without the cause of death or a weapon. Wanting to party and a lifestyle free of the person they murdered is motive enough- once again I direct you to Scott Peterson.

Chilly Willy
08-13-2008, 03:51 PM
Hans Reiser was convicted without a body or a weapon. Scott Peterson was convicted without the cause of death or a weapon. Wanting to party and a lifestyle free of the person they murdered is motive enough- once again I direct you to Scott Peterson.

There were bodies in the Scott Peterson case as well as strong evidence of premeditation. In this case, without a body, they can't prove for certain that Caylee is dead or that her mother murdered her. They can believe it, just like most of us believe it, but can they prove it in a court of law? If they do charge Casey, what will they charge her with? Accidental death? There's no proof of an accident. Murder 1? No proof of premeditation. Murder 2? No proof of murder at all. It's not going to be an easy case for the prosecutors unless those DNA tests came back showing that a deceased Caylee was definitely in the back of Casey's car.

QuickAttack
08-13-2008, 04:21 PM
There were bodies in the Scott Peterson case as well as strong evidence of premeditation. In this case, without a body, they can't prove for certain that Caylee is dead or that her mother murdered her. They can believe it, just like most of us believe it, but can they prove it in a court of law? If they do charge Casey, what will they charge her with? Accidental death? There's no proof of an accident. Murder 1? No proof of premeditation. Murder 2? No proof of murder at all. It's not going to be an easy case for the prosecutors unless those DNA tests came back showing that a deceased Caylee was definitely in the back of Casey's car.

Since we're not privy to the info that LE has in their hands right now, I'd say that we can do nothing but speculate on what happened and the charges that will follow.

Where you say there's no proof--there actually may be. It's just that we don't know about it yet.

I don't think that this will be an easy case at all for the prosecutors.

Chilly Willy
08-13-2008, 04:27 PM
Since we're not privy to the info that LE has in their hands right now, I'd say that we can do nothing but speculate on what happened and the charges that will follow.

Where you say there's no proof--there actually may be. It's just that we don't know about it yet.

I don't think that this will be an easy case at all for the prosecutors.

True, there may very well be evidence that we don't know about but it must not be overwhelming since no charges have been filed yet.

LinasK
08-13-2008, 04:58 PM
True, there may very well be evidence that we don't know about but it must not be overwhelming since no charges have been filed yet.

I'd think the stains and the hair? IIRC that were found in the car/trunk are evidence. And you have the cadaver dog hits...

LI_Mom
08-13-2008, 08:05 PM
IMO, if the forensic tests come back saying Caylee's hair was in the trunk PLUS there was a DEAD BODY in the trunk PLUS the cadaver dogs hit on TWO spots PLUS you have Casey out lying & partying like she's on some happy vacation.... it might be very hard for the defense to convince people that Caylee might still be alive.

Then you have Lee telling Casey that EVERYTHING she has told him has been a lie....

Put the GPs on the witness stand for the defense & let them start talking about pizza & dangerous kidnappers & "Mother of the Year Casey" & she will probably be pretty easy to convict without a body.

Frankly, I wonder if one of Casey's friends has already given LE some good info that makes them believe Caylee's body won't ever be found.... why else is there hardly any searching for her remains?

I think her friends have been cooperating w/ LE from the beginning..... they're probably disgusted with her for dragging them & the whole crowd into the spotlight.

txsvicki
08-13-2008, 09:00 PM
There's a Lubbock,Texas case, Scott Dunn. His body has never been found but his girlfriend and a male friend of hers were charged with murder. They said in Texas there has to be body, so Dunn's dad eventually went to the Vidoq society. They went in and found a large blood stain under a rigged piece of carpeting. It was proven to the DA that the blood was biological, part of the body, and too much loss to sustain life. If the Dad hadn't gotten others involved the murderers would probably still be free.

panthera
08-13-2008, 09:25 PM
There's a Lubbock,Texas case, Scott Dunn. His body has never been found but his girlfriend and a male friend of hers were charged with murder. They said in Texas there has to be body, so Dunn's dad eventually went to the Vidoq society. They went in and found a large blood stain under a rigged piece of carpeting. It was proven to the DA that the blood was biological, part of the body, and too much loss to sustain life. If the Dad hadn't gotten others involved the murderers would probably still be free.
The Dunn case sounds very interesting! There's another one in California where the ex-husband is set to stand trial for murder with special circumstances (financial gain) even though the body hasn't been found. Her name is Debbie Hawk and she went missing 2 yrs. ago. Her van was found with blood in it and there's also blood in her house.

http://www.cbs47.tv/news/local/story.aspx?content_id=e520b488-3782-4f5b-91d3-e189cec35c79

headndownstream
08-13-2008, 09:30 PM
We have a case in Ohio (30 miles from my house) where there was a conviction without a body, anyone know others would like to hope there is a chance if Caylee isn't found alive that Casey will pay.

Facts (http://www.findcarrieculberson.com/quickfacts.html)

Justice For Vince (http://www.justiceforvincent.com/)

Web Sleuth (http://websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=6572)

Hi, I live in Ohio and wonder if it's the same case I remember? Near Tusc. Co.? A long time ago. I believe one of the first of it's kind. "I remember my husband saying you can't convict without a body!" But they did.

ShouldBWorking
08-13-2008, 09:35 PM
Hi, I live in Ohio and wonder if it's the same case I remember? Near Tusc. Co.? A long time ago. I believe one of the first of it's kind. "I remember my husband saying you can't convict without a body!" But they did.

not sure it's the same, Carrie was from Blanchester and her mom has fought a good fight to get the conviction, they never found her or her car, lots of rumors, crazy rumors

SeriouslySearching
08-13-2008, 09:45 PM
There is a website which lists cases of trials without bodies. I will have to try to find it again. There are many, many cases which are prosecuted without and won.

JBean
08-27-2008, 10:04 PM
IMO, if this evidence is confirmed, then there is more than enough evidence to convict without a body.

LinasK
08-27-2008, 10:10 PM
There were bodies in the Scott Peterson case as well as strong evidence of premeditation. In this case, without a body, they can't prove for certain that Caylee is dead or that her mother murdered her. They can believe it, just like most of us believe it, but can they prove it in a court of law? If they do charge Casey, what will they charge her with? Accidental death? There's no proof of an accident. Murder 1? No proof of premeditation. Murder 2? No proof of murder at all. It's not going to be an easy case for the prosecutors unless those DNA tests came back showing that a deceased Caylee was definitely in the back of Casey's car.Ummm, yeah they can. They now have proof of a body decomposition in the trunk of her car and evidence of Caylee's hair in it. Accidental deaths are charged as some form of manslaughter. Involuntary manslaughter??? Prosecutors who read here, help me out!:truce:

JBean
08-27-2008, 10:12 PM
Ummm, yeah they can. They now have proof of a body decomposition in the trunk of her car and evidence of Caylee's hair in it. Accidental deaths are charged as some form of manslaughter. Involuntary manslaughter??? Prosecutors who read here, help me out!:truce:
that was a post before today's reports just FYI.

maskedwoman
08-27-2008, 10:22 PM
But convicted of what? If the "sources" are correct, LE is leaning toward accidental death as a possibility. It's possible that Casey wouldn't even do jail time for that.

I think it's a poker play. "Tell us it was an accident and where the body is and we won't hold those statements against you." But, maybe they already have a lot of evidence they think points toward something deliberate. They could still charge her for murder if they have other evidence without breaking their deal with Baez.

okok
08-27-2008, 10:24 PM
http://tbn0.google.com/images?q=tbn:TOHkL4COK-wCrM:http://blogs.kansascity.com/crime_scene/images/2007/11/13/alligator.jpg

ShouldBWorking
08-27-2008, 10:42 PM
http://tbn0.google.com/images?q=tbn:TOHkL4COK-wCrM:http://blogs.kansascity.com/crime_scene/images/2007/11/13/alligator.jpg

:mad: not very tasteful, this is a child we are talking about-

fran
08-27-2008, 10:49 PM
Perry March:
http://www.wsmv.com/news/9648572/detail.html
Prosecutors Seek Conviction Without Body, DNA Evidence


http://www.koreatimes.co.kr/www/news/nation/2008/08/117_29068.html
Murder Conviction Given Without Victim's Body


Even in England
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/2562195.stm
Thursday, 19 December, 2002, 11:31 GMT
Proving murder without a body


http://www.sptimes.com/2002/02/24/Hernando/No_body_makes_murder_.shtml
No body makes murder tough sell


http://newsok.com/article/3154296/1193109366
Murder conviction still possible without body

>>>>snip>>>>>>
was mistaken on this point, as many others have been. The law does not require a corpse but rather a corpus delicti, or "the body of evidence that establishes the crime has taken place.”


http://www.highbeam.com/doc/1G1-63809220.html
MURDER CONVICTION WITHOUT BODY? IT HAPPENED HERE AFTER WIFE VANISHED


This was just this April in California.
http://blog.wired.com/27bstroke6/2008/04/reiser-juror-de.html
Juror: Hans Reiser Planned the Murder, 'Thought It Out'


http://www.sptimes.com/2002/02/24/Hernando/No_body_makes_murder_.shtml
No body makes murder tough sell

okok
08-27-2008, 10:59 PM
:mad: not very tasteful, this is a child we are talking about-


No joke...I know it is a child and guess what?

Tell that to the mother of the missing child...not me. :furious:

SleuthyGal
08-27-2008, 11:05 PM
I think they can reasonably infer that Caylee is dead based on the decomp fluids + DNA + decomp smell/air and other analysis of what was in the trunk, plus eyewitness testimony about the smell in the car.

The big question I think is what can they charge her with: involuntary manslaughter, or manslaughter, or one of the murder charges (3 or 2). Murder 1 will be challenging but maybe not impossible.

EvaInCA
09-05-2008, 01:07 PM
I'm wondering about this child neglect charge she is facing. She is charged with neglect (among other things) and say they DON'T find Caylee's body (before she goes to trial). Can anybody tell me if say she goes to trial and they find her guilty, she gets some jail time and THEN they find Caylee. It would be hard pressed for someone to prove HOW she died and when, let alone it was Casey. But hypothetically speaking let's say they find Caylee's body and she died of something like blunt force trauma.

Casey can't be charged with anything or can she? Double Jeopardy or no?

What if as of today Casey invoked her right to a speedy trial. (I mean, it COULD happen, especially if she KNOWS the possibility of finding Caylee's body is pretty remote) She can cop to the child neglect, and the other charges (because they are relatively minor charges compared to murder) plead guilty and take a sentence?

I was reading up on the US Constitution and I hit the part about a person's right to a speedy trial that started me thinking about how it applies to Casey.

US Supreme Court Center > US Constitution > 6th Amendment > Right to a Speedy and Public Trial (http://supreme.justia.com/constitution/amendment-06/02-speedy-trial.html)
The reason I'm asking is my cousin was charged with Assault with a Deadly weapon 3rd degree in Los Angeles. (He got into it with a bouncer at a club out in the parking lot and picked up a rope divider pole and knocked the bouncer out.)
He was arrested and bonded out, on his court date the bouncer and him were in court, and my cousin's attorney said he would plead guilty if the bouncer guy would agree no charges would come up later saying what my cousin did caused any future problems. Bouncer agrees. He plead guilty to the charge, got 3 months and a 1500 dollar fine. He did a month and 1/2 and he was done.

The bouncer guy started having seizures 18 months after this, and I know this because he was going out with a girl my cousin used to date. She told my cousin the bouncer said it was because he got hit with a pole by my cousin. My cousin told him, "what are you going to do, SUE ME?"

It couldn't happen. My cousin's attorney told him that. Now that was 6 years ago. Can Casey and JB do something to this effect here with these charges??

Thanks

ScreenName
09-05-2008, 01:10 PM
Good question....I'm not sure of the answer...sorry :(

impatientredhead
09-05-2008, 01:13 PM
According to previously released articles Caylee being missing is the "event", they have currently charged her with neglect relevant to that, if they go all the way to trial and have not charged her with anything else they cannot go back and add additional charges related to the same event.

Ginny
09-05-2008, 01:20 PM
What I thought double jeopardy was being made to stand trial for the same crime twice. For example, beating a murder charge then new evidence is found that links you directly to that murder. They can't bring you up on charges again.

I honestly don't know how it would unfold with this case. The neglect charge is not the same as what the murder charge would be. I mean she's being charged with neglect for not reporting her missing for 31 days. Correct? The fact still stands that she never reported Caylee missing. Caylee's murder is a totally different crime. IMO

As always, I could be completely wrong and I think with a case like this, it isn't as cut and dry as we would want it to be.

Ginny
09-05-2008, 01:21 PM
According to previously released articles Caylee being missing is the "event", they have currently charged her with neglect relevant to that, if they go all the way to trial and have not charged her with anything else they cannot go back and add additional charges related to the same event.

Thanks for the clarification :)

Spangle
09-05-2008, 01:22 PM
If she is charged and go to trail because of the child negl. THEN they find the body, they can not go back and charge her with murder. Because that was the outcome of the child negl.

That was what was said weeks ago when she was first charged.

BAsed upon that, IMHO...
If Caylee is dead, it's in the best interest of the family, if the body isn't found until at least after the triall starts. So Casey is never charged with her murder.

jpaull
09-05-2008, 01:27 PM
According to previously released articles Caylee being missing is the "event", they have currently charged her with neglect relevant to that, if they go all the way to trial and have not charged her with anything else they cannot go back and add additional charges related to the same event.

I would think that is true except that for a murder charge, the "event" would be Caylee's death, not just her going missing.

Regardless, this assumes that she gets her trial and is convicted before enough evidence is gathered to warrant a murder charge. I don't think that will happen. As soon as the prosecutors have their evidence for a murder charge, they would likely upgrade the original charges ASAP.

kbay5
09-05-2008, 01:29 PM
If she is charged and go to trail because of the child negl. THEN they find the body, they can not go back and charge her with murder. Because that was the outcome of the child negl.

That was what was said weeks ago when she was first charged.

BAsed upon that, IMHO...
If Caylee is dead, it's in the best interest of the family, if the body isn't found until at least after the triall starts. So Casey is never charged with her murder.

I don't think they necessarily have to have a body to charge her with murder as long as they have evidence of a death and other evidence and this I am sure they would do before letting her walk on it.

MiraclesHappen
09-05-2008, 01:43 PM
I'm wondering about this child neglect charge she is facing. She is charged with neglect (among other things) and say they DON'T find Caylee's body (before she goes to trial). Can anybody tell me if say she goes to trial and they find her guilty, she gets some jail time and THEN they find Caylee. It would be hard pressed for someone to prove HOW she died and when, let alone it was Casey. But hypothetically speaking let's say they find Caylee's body and she died of something like blunt force trauma.

Casey can't be charged with anything or can she? Double Jeopardy or no?

What if as of today Casey invoked her right to a speedy trial. (I mean, it COULD happen, especially if she KNOWS the possibility of finding Caylee's body is pretty remote) She can cop to the child neglect, and the other charges (because they are relatively minor charges compared to murder) plead guilty and take a sentence?

I was reading up on the US Constitution and I hit the part about a person's right to a speedy trial that started me thinking about how it applies to Casey.

US Supreme Court Center > US Constitution > 6th Amendment > Right to a Speedy and Public Trial (http://supreme.justia.com/constitution/amendment-06/02-speedy-trial.html)
The reason I'm asking is my cousin was charged with Assault with a Deadly weapon 3rd degree in Los Angeles. (He got into it with a bouncer at a club out in the parking lot and picked up a rope divider pole and knocked the bouncer out.)
He was arrested and bonded out, on his court date the bouncer and him were in court, and my cousin's attorney said he would plead guilty if the bouncer guy would agree no charges would come up later saying what my cousin did caused any future problems. Bouncer agrees. He plead guilty to the charge, got 3 months and a 1500 dollar fine. He did a month and 1/2 and he was done.

The bouncer guy started having seizures 18 months after this, and I know this because he was going out with a girl my cousin used to date. She told my cousin the bouncer said it was because he got hit with a pole by my cousin. My cousin told him, "what are you going to do, SUE ME?"

It couldn't happen. My cousin's attorney told him that. Now that was 6 years ago. Can Casey and JB do something to this effect here with these charges??

Thanks



It would not be double jeopardy. Double Jeopardy is being charged and tried twice for the same crime on the same set of facts. The "set of facts" part is important because you can steal 3 cars and be charged with the car theft 3 times. You would need to steal a fourth car to generate a fourth charge of car theft. You cannot be charged and tried for the same crime on the same facts over and over. That is DJ. Now , if they happened to find a body in one of those 4 car trunks, while you were doing time for the car theft of one of the 4 cars, (having been found guilty after trial) and the ensuing investigation showed you to be responsible for the death of that body, you would then be charged with that murder, although you had already had a trial involving the theft of that car. All the evidence from the car theft trial would probably be relevant and useful at the murder trial. It would not be DJ to use it as the charge is expanded, different and using facts and evidence not involved at the first trial..to prove a new and different charge.

Just an opinion from Newbie-Ville.

MiraclesHappen
09-05-2008, 01:51 PM
If she is charged and go to trail because of the child negl. THEN they find the body, they can not go back and charge her with murder. Because that was the outcome of the child negl.

That was what was said weeks ago when she was first charged.

BAsed upon that, IMHO...
If Caylee is dead, it's in the best interest of the family, if the body isn't found until at least after the triall starts. So Casey is never charged with her murder.

Hi,

That argument was mentioned by Atty JB earlier and it is different from double jeopardy. Because the murder would involve new facts, new evidence, new charges, it is thus doubtful that argument would fly in Florida Courts.

It is more to prevent a scenario where a defendant is charged with say...larceny of a motor vehicle , and has a trial. Then to try to charge the same defendant, on the same incident, with say, malicious damage to the vehicle (popping the ignition during theft) , oh say 3 months after the trial is over...that shouldn't fly. It is not really double jeopardy as it's a different crime; but it is a crime arising out of the same facts and same evidence used in the larceny.

Just an opinion from Newbie-Ville

lillygator
09-05-2008, 01:54 PM
If she is charged and go to trail because of the child negl. THEN they find the body, they can not go back and charge her with murder. Because that was the outcome of the child negl.

That was what was said weeks ago when she was first charged.

BAsed upon that, IMHO...
If Caylee is dead, it's in the best interest of the family, if the body isn't found until at least after the triall starts. So Casey is never charged with her murder.

wow - I had no clue how that works...so she can be convicted of the neglect charges and then later if Caylee is found dead, she can't be tried for that?

impatientredhead
09-05-2008, 01:55 PM
It would not be double jeopardy. Double Jeopardy is being charged and tried twice for the same crime on the same set of facts. The "set of facts" part is important because you can steal 3 cars and be charged with the car theft 3 times. You would need to steal a fourth car to generate a fourth charge of car theft. You cannot be charged and tried for the same crime on the same facts over and over. That is DJ. Now , if they happened to find a body in one of those 4 car trunks, while you were doing time for the car theft of one of the 4 cars, (having been found guilty after trial) and the ensuing investigation showed you to be responsible for the death of that body, you would then be charged with that murder, although you had already had a trial involving the theft of that car. All the evidence from the car theft trial would probably be relevant and useful at the murder trial. It would not be DJ to use it as the charge is expanded, different and using facts and evidence not involved at the first trial..to prove a new and different charge.

Just an opinion from Newbie-Ville.

Correct, it is not double jeopardy. It is a Florida state statute that says you cannot go back and charge someone with additional charges related to the same criminal event. It would be one of the major risks of charging someone too early, or using a lesser charge to hold them. I hadn't heard of it before, it was reported under "little known Florida statute maybe the loophole Baez is counting on". I doubt it will happen but if it does it will have been a major error to charge her with neglect. I don't think they thought she would continue with this story and would say it was an accident (prior to the chloroform searches and lab results).

http://www.wftv.com/news/17193405/detail.html?rss=orlc&psp=news (3rd paragraph)

LOOPHOLE COULD ALLOW CASEY TO BEAT SYSTEM

A loophole could allow Caylee Anthony's mother to beat the system. She's still only facing charges of child neglect and giving false statements.

If her attorney asks for a speedy trial, they could be the only charges she ever faces. Florida law prohibits a person from being tried on more serious charges at a later date if the person stands trial for something that's related.

"If you lose a kid and that results in a child's death, that's one and the same case, because those are manslaughter charges," said board-certified trial attorney Richard Hornsby.


If Casey was found guilty of child neglect, she would only serve up to five years in prison versus a maximum of life for murder. Still, detectives have never said that Caylee Anthony is dead or that Casey is under investigation for murder or manslaughter.

catherineb
09-05-2008, 02:37 PM
HOLD on, I don't think they can get her on child neglect. Her story is that Caylee has been kidnapped....so how can they get her on neglect if there is no child to interview or check the welfare of? Plus, all the statements indicated that she was a good mom.

So, I think they can only get her on the obstruction of justice and fraud charges at this point. I don't know how much longer they are gonna wait until they file murder charges, but I understand that having a body would be a slam dunk, and they are taking their chances without a body and a jury member not being 100% convinced.

Spangle
09-05-2008, 02:57 PM
HOLD on, I don't think they can get her on child neglect. Her story is that Caylee has been kidnapped....so how can they get her on neglect if there is no child to interview or check the welfare of? Plus, all the statements indicated that she was a good mom.

So, I think they can only get her on the obstruction of justice and fraud charges at this point. I don't know how much longer they are gonna wait until they file murder charges, but I understand that having a body would be a slam dunk, and they are taking their chances without a body and a jury member not being 100% convinced.

IMHO.....For failing to report the kidnapping, where the LE could help find her.

It's kinda like failing to get medical help for someone in need.

TexasLil
09-05-2008, 03:02 PM
IMO neglect is not calling 911 for 31 days after the child went missing.

TexasLil
09-05-2008, 03:13 PM
I'm wondering if this can be used against her in any way...

"She kept saying, 'Get me out of here. I'll take you to my baby. I'll tell you what happened,'" Padilla said.

Indianagirl
09-05-2008, 03:14 PM
I honestly don't see how she could not be convicted of the child neglect charge...IMO that part of this case is open and shut.

catherineb
09-05-2008, 04:09 PM
I honestly don't see how she could not be convicted of the child neglect charge...IMO that part of this case is open and shut.


I don't think so. Definition of Neglect in FL is this: "NEGLECT: Any act or omission where a child is deprived of, or allowed to be deprived of, necessary supervision, food, clothing, shelter, or medical treatment, or a child is permitted to live in an environment when such deprivation or environment causes the child's physical, mental, or emotional health to be significantly impaired or to be in danger of being significantly impaired. " http://www.dcf.state.fl.us/abuse/definitions.shtml

I understand what you mean, but by the law itself, Caylee has to be PRESENT to determine if the following things are evident. Since she is missing and can't be evaluated for her mental, emotional, and physical health, it doesn't cut it. It is neglectful to not report her as missing, but I don't think it meets the FL Statute of neglect legally. I don't know if there are any laws that it make a crime to not report a missing person....but that isn't the same legally as DCF's version of abuse and neglect.

amethyst221
09-05-2008, 04:20 PM
If you notice, though, that article talks about child neglect resulting in Caylee's death. That isn't necessarily required or charged at this time. I agree that losing or "mismanaging" or misplacing your child and failing to report it for 30 days, for no credible reason, must be neglect or abandonment, even if she may still be alive. Murder would be a different crime not subject to double jeopardy claims.

I think the state is using the time it has to see if they can find a body, to shore up murder charges, and also to gather as much other evidence as possible. At some point before the neglect charge goes to trial, they will add the most serious other charges they can. As time goes by, IF Casey isn't charged with murder, she might get to like staying out on bond and might not be so anxious to go to trail on charges that could put her in prison for years. She can always waive her right to speedy trial. All the strategizing hasn't even really begun!

oceanblueeyes
09-05-2008, 05:03 PM
I don't think so. Definition of Neglect in FL is this: "NEGLECT: Any act or omission where a child is deprived of, or allowed to be deprived of, necessary supervision, food, clothing, shelter, or medical treatment, or a child is permitted to live in an environment when such deprivation or environment causes the child's physical, mental, or emotional health to be significantly impaired or to be in danger of being significantly impaired. " http://www.dcf.state.fl.us/abuse/definitions.shtml

I understand what you mean, but by the law itself, Caylee has to be PRESENT to determine if the following things are evident. Since she is missing and can't be evaluated for her mental, emotional, and physical health, it doesn't cut it. It is neglectful to not report her as missing, but I don't think it meets the FL Statute of neglect legally. I don't know if there are any laws that it make a crime to not report a missing person....but that isn't the same legally as DCF's version of abuse and neglect.

I do believe if she is charged with the death of Caylee, most likely the charge of neglect will be set aside. The obstruction charge will remain in force imo.

However, it is obvious to me that she is guilty of neglect. This is confirmed by her own story. First, she is the sole custodian of this child so Caylee's welfare is her paramount total responsibility. Casey knows that Caylee has been kidnapped and has no way of knowing if she is or if she is not in grave danger or worse, yet as a neglectful custodian she stands idle and doesn't ever lift a finger to even report it to police. Gross neglect imo. Even if her babble was true.....she would have failed by neglecting to meet her responsibilities to see to it that her child was free from all risks of possible harm and neglect. Actually it was as if Casey had abandoned Caylee and her needs from minute one. I think when Casey had Caylee a whole lot of neglect was happening to her. Mommy wanted to party hardy...Caylee was her obstacle.

I don't know if it would be DJ. I do know I have read about defendants who were charged with "attempted murder" and convicted and then the victim later died and they charge them with "murder". Same evidence used in both trials except the MEs report on the death of the victim instead of the surviving injuries they had when the defendant was convicted of attempted murder back at that time.



JMO tho.

EvaInCA
09-05-2008, 05:05 PM
Correct, it is not double jeopardy. It is a Florida state statute that says you cannot go back and charge someone with additional charges related to the same criminal event. It would be one of the major risks of charging someone too early, or using a lesser charge to hold them. I hadn't heard of it before, it was reported under "little known Florida statute maybe the loophole Baez is counting on". I doubt it will happen but if it does it will have been a major error to charge her with neglect. I don't think they thought she would continue with this story and would say it was an accident (prior to the chloroform searches and lab results).

http://www.wftv.com/news/17193405/detail.html?rss=orlc&psp=news (3rd paragraph)

LOOPHOLE COULD ALLOW CASEY TO BEAT SYSTEM

A loophole could allow Caylee Anthony's mother to beat the system. She's still only facing charges of child neglect and giving false statements.

If her attorney asks for a speedy trial, they could be the only charges she ever faces. Florida law prohibits a person from being tried on more serious charges at a later date if the person stands trial for something that's related.

"If you lose a kid and that results in a child's death, that's one and the same case, because those are manslaughter charges," said board-certified trial attorney Richard Hornsby.


If Casey was found guilty of child neglect, she would only serve up to five years in prison versus a maximum of life for murder. Still, detectives have never said that Caylee Anthony is dead or that Casey is under investigation for murder or manslaughter.

THAT is what I was trying to ask and thank you Red for helping me clarify it. Okay so seeing as how this little loophole is a possibility and Baez knows it, I guess the pressure is on the prosecution? I'm asking because somewhere in the little dark place in my gut that tells me I better get ready because she might get off easy on this. I pray it doesn't happen. But the way things are going some days it's hard to feel like justice will be served. But we'll see.

Thanks again for clearing that up for me. Appreciate it

SeriouslySearching
09-09-2008, 09:39 PM
Thought this thread was worth bumping up again.

TrailDog
09-09-2008, 09:58 PM
While the conviction of Murder is possible without a body, I feel it's improbable under the current court system (the 9th circuit court, here in Orl). The state must prove "corpus delecti" in murder cases. This means "body of the crime". In a Murder case the state has to establish 3 things to prove corpus delecti. These three things are as follows:
1. the fact of death (this is easily done by forensics)
2. the identity of the victim (again, can be done by forensics)
3. the "criminal agency" of another (meaning a felonious act)

Now, the first two are fairly easy for the state to prove. The third, however, is a lot more challenging. Obviously there is a lot of circumstantial evidence pointing to suspicious activity by KC. This does not however, rise to any criminal act committed by her pointing to the death of her child. There is obviously evidence that only the investigators know about though so I don't know.

Don't get me wrong, I think she most definitely did it and is guilty, I just would be surprised if the state charged her without a body. I can not think of a single case in the 9th circuit where the state has upheld and tried a murder charge without one... which sucks.

passin_through
09-09-2008, 10:22 PM
I didn't see this one listed, it's a good one someone else at WS had listed before.
http://www.charleyproject.org/cases/t/tucker_logan.html
It's pretty sad but interesting if you read the story.

edit to add, just noticed this case got a thread all it's own. :) sorry 'bout that

77NancyDrew
09-09-2008, 10:26 PM
HMMM...I saw it on Fox, so I will look for a link for a transcript...may take awhile!

I think it was lawyer thAt is usually on Gerldo that said that.

SeriouslySearching
09-09-2008, 10:31 PM
We don't know everything that LE and the FBI have at this point. I think they could proceed, but would prefer not to without Caylee's body. If they can connect CA to the DNA and Decomp in the trunk...they have a case. The only way she could have gotten it on her or her things is to have come into direct contact...proving she did move the body. In order for her to move the body, she would have had to know the body existed prior. I think they can build this case backwards with forensics and with witness statements (lies and truth alike).

dalli'smom
09-09-2008, 10:50 PM
there was a very well known case here in georgia with shannon melendi!!her body wasn't found until after he was convicted and finally confessed!!here is a link with info. about it:

http://abcnews.go.com/US/LegalCenter/Story?id=2201120&page=1

faefrost
09-09-2008, 10:58 PM
Most cases wothout a body have the hurdle of proving that the subject is dead beyong a reasonable doubt. By all indications this does not apply here.

This will not be a case without a body. LE already has enough physical evidence to prove that a death occured. The hair samples showing the death ring, and matched back to Caylee, along with the evidence of decomposition and DNA in the trunk. That is more then enough to be considered a "body".

What they need the full body for is to have any proof of mechanism of death, and thereby motive. casey will be facing a homicide charge with a confirmed and provable death. The only question is how steep of a murder charge can the prosecutors bring.

c'monalready
09-09-2008, 11:01 PM
Thomas Campano is serving life (his dp was overturned on appeal) for the murder of Anne Marie Fahey. Her body was never found. And he is much smarter than this twit sitting in the Orange County Jail and his attorneys were much better than this Jose Whateverhisnameis.

I have no doubt that Casey Anthony would be convicted w/o a body. I do believe LE has more than they are saying (I always believe that). I am starting to think this theory of an accidental death is just their way of lulling Casey into a false sense of security so she will admit to what happened *because there is no way that woman is innocent* of killing her child. No way.

I thought the same thing, that LE was just putting that out there (accident) to see if she'd bite.

capoly
09-09-2008, 11:13 PM
KYNANDE KALEHJE BENNETT

Vartasha McCollough-White, 30, is serving a 20-year sentence after she was convicted in 2006 of homicide by child abuse in the death of her child, whose body has not been found.

Nore
09-09-2008, 11:17 PM
I'd think the stains and the hair? IIRC that were found in the car/trunk are evidence. And you have the cadaver dog hits...
--------------
Me too Linask,they should have no problem identifying hair,DNA, as coming from Caylee if it did.Her DNA would be all over her room no matter how hard they would try to hide it.My Dr. said they certainly can tell if DNA,hair etc.is from a dead body or a live one.I sometimes wonder if LE.is trying to give Casey enough rope to slip up,become too sure of herself.I do believe she misses her boyfriends and will become "hairy" because of it.LOL..An old saying ~ "give em' enough rope and they will hang themselves".Anyone know if their house has a basement or just crawl space? I wonder.I forget did they take the cadaver dogs inside or just in the yard? Oh so many questions we have,wish we could have a go at her! IMO

princess
09-09-2008, 11:29 PM
Rilya Wilson

I can not find the conclusion to the case..one of you more savy people here might be able to.


This is a woman who they charged with kidnapping without any evidence that she took the child anywhere and now they've charged her with the murder of a child they have not located," Tannebaum said.
http://www.wesh.com/news/4292896/detail.html


http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2007-10-08-293444213_x.htm


http://www.wesh.com/news/3790195/detail.html

MiraclesHappen
09-09-2008, 11:41 PM
Could is the key word - we'd have to know what the minimum sentence is, and then there's also the possibility of a plea to a lesser charge that might simply result in probation.

ETA: Often the sentences for various charges run concurrently too, for instance if she got 3 years for charge A and three years for charge B, she would still only serve 3 years, or less with good behavior.


As far as the 6 years, I'm pretty sure that was before the additional charges involving the uttering, larceny, and that set of circumstances.

Keep in mind, she has yet to be charged for bilking the stroke victim grandparent.

I can't imagine why the prosecution would plea bargain those cases down, at this juncture.

I vote for time on and after. Who on Appellate earth would reverse a judge for not giving Casey concurrent sentences if that situation arose?

JulieAnne
09-10-2008, 12:37 AM
I think they will get a murder charge without the body. Like someone said, the odds of a random person just happening to have carried a dead body around in their trunk are REALLY small. Then tie in the odds of an (innocent) mother waiting a month to report her missing child missing. O.k., you have got to be at some odds so obscure that they don't register on the scale.

Now factor in the mathematical odds of an innocent mother unknowingly carrying around a dead body in her trunk during the same period of time that she just happens not to have notified law enforcement FOR A MONTH that her child is missing and then this innocent mother opts to lie about everything and the KITCHEN SINK. Then this innocent woman is found to have lied, cheated and stolen from family and friends INCLUDING a very elderly grandparent,

O.k., now what would the odds be ...

Finding someone guilty is just getting beyond "reasonable doubt". She may not have had her day in court yet - but her only hope is that Caylee comes sauntering in that court room with a big ole happy smile - cuz she passed "reasonable doubt" up the day the labs came back :(

suspicious mind
09-10-2008, 12:43 AM
forensics don't lie. Casey is goin down. O happy day!

dewshoney
09-10-2008, 11:50 AM
There is a case in Blanchester, OH where a first degree murder conviction was obtained against Vincent Doan for the murder of his girlfriend Carrie Culberson. There was no body that was ever found. No murder weapon, no cause of death...but the prosecutors were able to prove the case based on all of the circumstantial evidence in the case despite the fact that several witnesses came forward claiming to have seen Carrie driving her car weeks after her disappearance. In my opinion, even though his guilt was pretty obvious, the prosecutor was able to pull off a conviction with even less evidence in the Vincent Doan case than the police in Orlando have against Casey already...I think they could safely proceed at this point without fear of acquittal OR overturn on appeal. Lock her up and throw away the key....:behindbar...Or just give me a half an hour alone in a room with her...:crazy:

thelmadawg
09-14-2008, 10:27 AM
I'm wondering if some of our legal eagles can provide input on what LE strategy might be?

We know they probably have more information that's not released.

But, do they have enough to build a case without poor Caylee?

Would they prosecute KC on exisiting charges, and wait for additional info to materialize?

And what information (by deduction) do we think they might have we don't know about?

jbar
09-14-2008, 10:44 AM
I am not a lawyer, a paralegal nor do I have any sort of legal background.

However, I am a reader :)

I read on the WESH site, I believe, a direct quote from LE that said that we will NOT see any homicide charges until they can prove probable cause.

I believe they have enough evidence to prove Caylee is dead, and that there was human decomp in the back of Casey's car. They might even have the evidence that proves it was CAYLEE'S decomp in the back of Casey's car - however... and this is a BIG HOWEVER, they do not, right now, have probable cause to put Casey (or anyone else right now) in posession of that car at the same time of the decomp, nor do they have any evidence to prove that Casey (or anyone else right now) has had anything to do with Caylee's death.

I do believe that there was someone else involved, and that person and Caylee's body hold the key to potential and future charges.

Until then, and this is just my speculation, this case very much runs the risk of going cold... and she will just have to be tried on current charges.

ETA : They will not have any problem convicting on current charges and yes, she will serve some sort of time. JMO

crimesolver4U
09-14-2008, 11:00 AM
Even if they found Caylees body it would be difficult to determine cause of death. There are probably skeletal remains. It is also difficult to show homocide in the case of child deaths because most are not killed by gunshot wound or stabbing where it is easier to demonstrate.
They have enough to show that Caylee is dead. The problem they have is that they probably believe that it was intentional first degree murder, but they are concerned that there is no way to demonstrate that, and that a judge may give a jury instruction in a murder case to convict her of manslaughter if they cant degree. That would be intentional negligent manslaughter which is a lesser charge. They will bring a murder case and try to prove circumstantial evidence shows it was intentional, ie. no remorse after, not wanting to have a child, ect, but there is always a chance it will be manslaughter. I imagine they are adding all these other charges so that if she gets only manslaughter she will be in jail a long time.
They are hoping for a body for the small chance it might indicate what happened to her

magnolia
09-14-2008, 11:14 AM
I am not a lawyer, a paralegal nor do I have any sort of legal background.

*Snipped*

I believe they have enough evidence to prove Caylee is dead, and that there was human decomp in the back of Casey's car. They might even have the evidence that proves it was CAYLEE'S decomp in the back of Casey's car - however... and this is a BIG HOWEVER, they do not, right now, have probable cause to put Casey (or anyone else right now) in posession of that car at the same time of the decomp, nor do they have any evidence to prove that Casey (or anyone else right now) has had anything to do with Caylee's death.

I do believe that there was someone else involved, and that person and Caylee's body hold the key to potential and future charges.

Until then, and this is just my speculation, this case very much runs the risk of going cold... and she will just have to be tried on current charges.

*Snipped*



I'n not an Attorney either, but, I think you're right on about this.:D

However, don't know if I believe that someone else was involved in the death of Caylee. I lean more towards thoughts that someone helped her with the cover-up.

I also think some of her friends have more info. that would be of interest to LE.

If Casey confided in anyone about what actually happened, I strongly believe it would be her brother, Lee.

Lee knows what happened. IMO!!

jbar
09-14-2008, 11:16 AM
However, don't know if I believe that someone else was involved in the death of Caylee. I lean more towards thoughts that someone helped her with the cover-up.


Yes, I was vague about my implication that someone else was involved. I don't know if I believe that anyone else was involved with the death, but I do believe there was someone else involved with either moving the body, covering things up, and/or some other action, after the fact.

magnolia
09-14-2008, 11:25 AM
Yes, I was vague about my implication that someone else was involved. I don't know if I believe that anyone else was involved with the death, but I do believe there was someone else involved with either moving the body, covering things up, and/or some other action, after the fact.

Casey didn't carry the burden alone for the 30-day period before Caylee was reported missing.

She went crying to someone. I believe that someone was Lee.

IMO!!

jbar
09-14-2008, 11:28 AM
I would agree with you - but Lee is such an obvious choice, and his comings and goings would be easily thought suspicous or verified. His girlfriend, their parents, did he have a job during this period? To me, I am thinking that the person that helped has slid off into the darkness, right now and/or is hiding.

thelmadawg
09-14-2008, 11:47 AM
Some great responses.

IF KC was convicted of negligent manslaughter, together with the other felonies, etc., what sort of time would she serve?

What evidence do you think LE might have that we don't know about?

Personally, I don't think anyone aided her in this. She's a loner other than using others to either get something in return or to boost her own ego. I think the family has probably come to the realization, Lee, in particular, that she is culpable in some way, but cannot for legal reasons, or because of self-denial, make that public or evident. Lee, for one, is probably protecting the family and their home as much as anything right now. AS for the grandparents, they seem to have a confrontational history that is still coming into play. CA, in particular, during the initial hearing testimoney stuck me as playing the martyr, and was already confrontational and evasive about KC. Very interesting family dynamics!

jbar
09-14-2008, 11:51 AM
She's a loner other than using others to either get something in return or to boost her own ego. I think the family has probably come to the realization, Lee, in particular, that she is culpable in some way, but cannot for legal reasons, or because of self-denial, make that public or evident. Lee, for one, is probably protecting the family and their home as much as anything right now

Great points.

As a narcassist, perhaps she felt like she could handle this all by herself, and better than anyone else could - so you are right, there is the potential she didn't involve anyone. Hmmm... something for me to think about, appreciate it.

karenmamo
09-14-2008, 12:27 PM
I'n not an Attorney either, but, I think you're right on about this.:D

However, don't know if I believe that someone else was involved in the death of Caylee. I lean more towards thoughts that someone helped her with the cover-up.

I also think some of her friends have more info. that would be of interest to LE.

If Casey confided in anyone about what actually happened, I strongly believe it would be her brother, Lee.

Lee knows what happened. IMO!!

In agreement: Lee is KEY :clap: :clap: :clap:

magnolia
09-14-2008, 12:42 PM
*Snipped*

Personally, I don't think anyone aided her in this. She's a loner other than using others to either get something in return or to boost her own ego. I think the family has probably come to the realization, Lee, in particular, that she is culpable in some way, but cannot for legal reasons, or because of self-denial, make that public or evident. Lee, for one, is probably protecting the family and their home as much as anything right now. AS for the grandparents, they seem to have a confrontational history that is still coming into play. CA, in particular, during the initial hearing testimoney stuck me as playing the martyr, and was already confrontational and evasive about KC. Very interesting family dynamics!


Great points.

As a narcassist, perhaps she felt like she could handle this all by herself, and better than anyone else could - so you are right, there is the potential she didn't involve anyone. Hmmm... something for me to think about, appreciate it.

I agree! Great points! You may be right that she didn't involve anyone else.

But then again, what a big burden for someone as young and immature as Casey to carry alone.

marlap
09-14-2008, 12:43 PM
I think they can reasonably infer that Caylee is dead based on the decomp fluids + DNA + decomp smell/air and other analysis of what was in the trunk, plus eyewitness testimony about the smell in the car.

The big question I think is what can they charge her with: involuntary manslaughter, or manslaughter, or one of the murder charges (3 or 2). Murder 1 will be challenging but maybe not impossible.

This is how I feel, too.

I think they already have scientific evidence that Caylee's dead body was in the car.

I think murder 1 charges are not out of the question, especially depending on exactly when Casey did those Internet cholorform searches.

I think she will at the very least be charged with manslaughter.

Because of all the check fraud charges and the jail time she may get from all that, I can see LE waiting as long as they need to to charge her with manslaughter or murder 1. She's not going anywhere any time soon, as they say.

I'm hoping the police have plenty of evidence we haven't heard about that would help them charge her with murder 1.

There may even be someone who helped Casey get rid of Caylee's body (Rest in peace sweet angel!) and they are looking for that person...

I would be very surprised if she were not eventually charged with some level of responsibilty for Caylee's death.

librarian_mama
09-14-2008, 12:44 PM
But convicted of what? If the "sources" are correct, LE is leaning toward accidental death as a possibility. It's possible that Casey wouldn't even do jail time for that.

Accidental death by Chloroform? Casey searched Chloroform on that laptop...I also think if it was accidental, Casey wouldn't be keeping silent this long. JMO


I am starting to think that Casey probably did have some help with the disposal of Caylee--there seem to be (tiny) bits of truth thrown in her lies--in the LE interveiw, she keeps saying repeatedly "I have no clue where Caylee is"--perhaps whoever helped her makes this statement true...she doesn't know the exact spot. JMO.

magnolia
09-14-2008, 12:53 PM
My concern is that without the body, with out the cause of death, with out a weapon, without a motive other than that she wanted to party, etc the circumstantial chain will not be strong enough on appeal.

*Snipped*

I am worried in this case that the family has behaved in such a way that many wrenches have been thrown into the investigation, that we do not even know about, that could rise to the level of constitutional problems. I am worried that all the media coverage has tainted any possible jury verdict, I am worried about the reliability of the body farm testing and whether or not it will stand up to daubert and be admissible. I just am plain worried.

I am concerned where this case is headed for the same reasons.

magnolia
09-14-2008, 12:56 PM
IMO, if this evidence is confirmed, then there is more than enough evidence to convict without a body.

It the evidence is such that it can be confirmed.... I agree!

Charge Them All
09-14-2008, 01:05 PM
LE is confident that she will spend time behind bars for the fraud charges, so they have plenty of time to charge her with murder. They will charge her with or without the body. If they can find Caylee that will just be icing on the cake, so to speak. She is not walking free without a body, maybe a lesser charge, but she will pay for what she has done. Then she will pay for all eternity with the lord. There is no escape for KC.

thelmadawg
09-14-2008, 01:07 PM
IF KC is convicted of, say, negligent manslaughter (assuming for the moment they can't prove murder) together with the other felony and check charges, how much time could (would) she get?

Hope this hasn't been answered already, and I just haven't seen it. I guess most of us who, by now, think this lady is guilty as sin (IMHO) are hoping she won't get away with a pat on the wrist, so to speak!

jbar
09-14-2008, 01:09 PM
But then again, what a big burden for someone as young and immature as Casey to carry alone.


Yes, we, as mentally healthy and stable individuals would assume this to be the case. Who knows though, as a sociopath and narcassist.

MiraclesHappen
09-14-2008, 01:22 PM
Does anyone know if FL has a homicide by abuse or depraved indifference murder statute? Here in WA a person can be fould guilty of "Homicide by abuse,"which is something more than manslaughter but less than man1 or 2, if "under circumstances manifesting an extreme indifference to human life, the person causes the death of a child or person under sixteen years of age." Such a statute may provide a more safe charging option.




I don't know if this has been answered yet as I 'm just reading this thread.

Yes Florida does have that situation covered by statute.

There are 2 types of 1st degree murder in FL, which carry life in prison or the death penalty.

The first type is with premeditation.

The reckless aggravated child abuse leading to death, would fall into the second category (during the commision of certain crimes--there is a death)

Sorry if this is already answered...still reading thread.

Balthazar
09-14-2008, 03:28 PM
Logan Tucker Case: 6 year old disappears, body never found, mother convicted of murder. Told a big pack of lies - many of them just plain ridiculous.

http://www.woodwardnews.net/siteSearch/apstorysection/local_story_056013420.html
http://bubbaworld.com/2007/08/31/katherine-rutan-pollard-trial/


She got rid of him because with him around she couldn't do what she wanted to do.

Sentenced to life without parole.

dcorrigano
09-14-2008, 03:42 PM
They convict all day long without a body, even death penalty cases. In the case of Scott Peterson, they had the body but no "hard" evidence and really nothing mre than circumstantial evidence.(not saying he didnt do it) If all the LE statements are true and with just the evidence leaked, I think they could win this without accident and turn it into a death penalty case. Motive, revenge on the parents. Opportunity, took off for days. and all the pictures of her partying. Which is why it doesnt make sense they havent charged her yet.

one_hooah_wife
09-14-2008, 04:08 PM
I found this a while back but didn't really know where to put it ... I see that this is the perfect spot for it.

Here is a site that has a list of all the "no body" murder trials and outcomes and insight from the author a successful prosecutor of many "no body" murder convictions.

Snipped from site:
http://www.nobodymurdercases.com/index.html

Quote from Tad DiBiase the No Body Guy
"For over 12 years I was an Assistant United States Attorney in the District of Columbia and I prosecuted homicide cases for most of those years. In January of 2006, I prosecuted the second "no body" murder case tried in D.C. and have been interested in "no body" cases ever since.

On this site I track "no body" murder cases, trials and investigations. My table of "No body" Murder Trials lists nearly 300 "no body" murder trials in the United States. I also have consulted, for free, with law enforcement agencies throughout the United States and Canada. If you know of a "no body" case, investigation, or trial, contact me and I'd be happy to add it to my table or blog about it.

All the best,
Thomas A. (Tad) DiBiase, 'No Body' Guy"

Baznme
09-14-2008, 04:18 PM
I found this a while back but didn't really know where to put it ... I see that this is the perfect spot for it.

Here is a site that has a list of all the "no body" murder trials and outcomes and insight from the author a successful prosecutor of many "no body" murder convictions.

Snipped from site:
http://www.nobodymurdercases.com/index.html

For over 12 years I was an Assistant United States Attorney in the District of Columbia and I prosecuted homicide cases for most of those years. In January of 2006, I prosecuted the second "no body" murder case tried in D.C. and have been interested in "no body" cases ever since.

On this site I track "no body" murder cases, trials and investigations. My table of "No body" Murder Trials lists nearly 300 "no body" murder trials in the United States. I also have consulted, for free, with law enforcement agencies throughout the United States and Canada. If you know of a "no body" case, investigation, or trial, contact me and I'd be happy to add it to my table or blog about it.

All the best,

Thomas A. (Tad) DiBiase, "No Body" Guy


Given your experience with these types of cases, what do you think will go down for KC at the point we are at with no body?

magnolia
09-14-2008, 04:18 PM
They convict all day long without a body, even death penalty cases. In the case of Scott Peterson, they had the body but no "hard" evidence and really nothing mre than circumstantial evidence.(not saying he didnt do it) If all the LE statements are true and with just the evidence leaked, I think they could win this without accident and turn it into a death penalty case. Motive, revenge on the parents. Opportunity, took off for days. and all the pictures of her partying. Which is why it doesnt make sense they havent charged her yet.

DA's have different standards. Some DA's are willing to take a chance. Others are more cautious, and won't take on a case unless they feel fairly confident about the outcome.

If my memory serves me correctly, several of the SP jurors stated, that without the body they would have voted to acquit.

one_hooah_wife
09-14-2008, 04:21 PM
Given your experience with these types of cases, what do you think will go down for KC at the point we are at with no body?

I don't have experience with homicide cases ... so I really can't say ... but the part that I snipped was a quote from the website of Tad DiBiase ... you can find lots of info there on his Blog and he also welcomes email. Sorry for the confusion!

Pamela

Baznme
09-14-2008, 04:24 PM
I don't have experience with homicide cases ... so I really can't say ... but the part that I snipped was a quote from the website of Tad DiBiase ... you can find lots of info there on his Blog and he also welcomes email. Sorry for the confusion!

Pamela

OK....thanks for the site. It looks very interesting but, what is your thought on where this case may go based on what we know up to this point? Conviction or no?

one_hooah_wife
09-14-2008, 04:30 PM
OK....thanks for the site. It looks very interesting but, what is your thought on where this case may go based on what we know up to this point? Conviction or no?

I think that there is a very good chance of a conviction based on the evidence as we know it to be. However, I see a lot of weaknesses that the defense would exploit to be granted a new trial on appeal. I think obviously, the more forensic evidence the better. I really believe that the DA is trying to back Casey into a corner so that she will have to take a plea bargain and skip the uncertainty of a trial.

Brini
09-14-2008, 04:30 PM
I have spent a ton of time trying to find the answer to whether they can determine if the stain came from dead body, it appears that the answer is they can get DNA but they can't say it came from a body. The only cases I could find were three like you mention, they found so much blood the person couldn't be alive. It doesn't sound like this stain is that big.

The other cases I found that didn't have a body had other incriminating evidence, like witnesses etc...

The air test that they were talking about this morning is newer technology and hasn't been used/challenged in court yet. Hopefully the evidence they haven't shared is really good, or my research skills suck and you can determine if a stain came from a body.

There's a death band on the hair.

And, the cops have said they have more forensic evidence than they have revealed.

My guess is that they will definately get a conviction. I'm not sue they can prove intent, though.

Brini
09-14-2008, 04:32 PM
I think that there is a very good chance of a conviction based on the evidence as we know it to be. However, I see a lot of weaknesses that the defense would exploit to be granted a new trial on appeal. I think obviously, the more forensic evidence the better. I really believe that the DA is trying to back Casey into a corner so that she will have to take a plea bargain and skip the uncertainty of a trial.

They might also offer, at some point, to take the death penalty off the table. Or, offer something less than life w/o parole.

Baznme
09-14-2008, 04:33 PM
If she is convicted of the charges before her now and serving her sentence, can she be charged with the murder charge at a later date if they find Caylee?

Brini
09-14-2008, 04:33 PM
OK....thanks for the site. It looks very interesting but, what is your thought on where this case may go based on what we know up to this point? Conviction or no?

Well, KC had a dead body in the car. And, the hair came from Cindy's mom, Ciindy, Casey, or Caylee, and one of them is dead (death band). You do the math.

Brini
09-14-2008, 04:36 PM
Casey didn't carry the burden alone for the 30-day period before Caylee was reported missing.

She went crying to someone. I believe that someone was Lee.

IMO!!

I think Lee was told right after the 911 calls.

Baznme
09-14-2008, 04:39 PM
Well, KC had a dead body in the car. And, the hair came from Cindy's mom, Ciindy, Casey, or Caylee, and one of them is dead (death band). You do the math.


Brini, I totally agree with you. There's no disputing what they found in the trunk of that car. This woman knows what happened to that child and that's what is so infuriating about this case. She's in the comfort of her own home and doesn't seem to have any trouble sleeping at night while the rest of the world is trying to find that little girl. I just have a fear that if they don't have enough hard evidence to convince a jury there's no room for "reasonable doubt", she may walk. That would be the epitomy of injustice for Caylee.

Baznme
09-14-2008, 04:43 PM
I think Lee was told right after the 911 calls.

I strongly doubt that and I'll explain why I say that. On the jailhouse call with her brother, I think the first one. She's rambling through her lies and he says to her, "we're going to find out". He was insistent on that. He said he wasn't going to go round and round with her especially seeing what their mother (Cindy) has been going through.

reefshadow
09-14-2008, 05:01 PM
If she is convicted of the charges before her now and serving her sentence, can she be charged with the murder charge at a later date if they find Caylee?

Not sure if your question has been answered yet, but yes. There is NO statute of limitations for murder. They have all the time in the world providing they can prove that it was murder.

It is very frustrating waiting on this case, but the delay is only pulling the noose tighter.

Baznme
09-14-2008, 05:02 PM
Not sure if your question has been answered yet, but yes. There is NO statute of limitations for murder. They have all the time in the world providing they can prove that it was murder.

It is very frustrating waiting on this case, but the delay is only pulling the noose tighter.

I hope you are sooooo right.

Tuba
09-14-2008, 05:12 PM
Yes, Baznme, she can be convicted of her economic crimes, as they are being termed in the media, and be sentenced and in prison be charged in the homicide of her daughter and again brought to trial. I like AlligatorMom's idea that the supposed death is being talked about as an accident only as a strategem against Casey's stone wall. So far it hasn't worked. Nothing has. But the vice is tightening every day. btw, "economic crimes" is not apt. Sounds like she overcharged on her credit card. The crimes alleged are all forms of thievery but why generalize? String them out there: larceny, grand theft, forgery, fraud, criminal conversion, uttering false instruments. Gives everybody pause to think about her acts, every time they are enumerated. Let Jose Baez do the mitigating.

Tuba
09-14-2008, 05:32 PM
If you were alone with Casey today, what would you say to her or ask her to induce her to spill? The shrink on Nancy Grace identified Casey as Contact Dependent, meaning captivated by her engagement of the moment with another person or persons. If you are contact dependent, you lack a larger perspective; you can't see the forest for the tree you're with. These people are very poor planners. Maybe this trait could be used to advantage in getting a glimpse of the truth.

Chilly Willy
09-14-2008, 05:36 PM
Does anyone have a link to an official version of what, exactly, has been released about the evidence that was tested from the trunk?

songline
09-14-2008, 05:43 PM
I'd think the stains and the hair? IIRC that were found in the car/trunk are evidence. And you have the cadaver dog hits...

I am not sure that is enough...They still have to connect Casey to it somehow.
She can say she kept hair brushes in the trunk too (the liar).

I think if they could have they would have charged her already.
I think it is best to have an air tight case.
I only hope it does not take much longer.
I also hope that poor baby get a respectable burial. :(

songline
09-14-2008, 05:48 PM
Yes, Baznme, she can be convicted of her economic crimes, as they are being termed in the media, and be sentenced and in prison be charged in the homicide of her daughter and again brought to trial. I like AlligatorMom's idea that the supposed death is being talked about as an accident only as a strategem against Casey's stone wall. So far it hasn't worked. Nothing has. But the vice is tightening every day. btw, "economic crimes" is not apt. Sounds like she overcharged on her credit card. The crimes alleged are all forms of thievery but why generalize? String them out there: larceny, grand theft, forgery, fraud, criminal conversion, uttering false instruments. Gives everybody pause to think about her acts, every time they are enumerated. Let Jose Baez do the mitigating.

I do think that is a great start...
They should put her in jail and charge her for all her despicable stealing, conniving, manipulating.
and while she is sitting in jail they can continue on getting the murder case air tight.

I wonder if her parents or Amy would press charges; Maybe George paid Amy back.
Maybe nobody is pressing charges.

marlap
09-14-2008, 06:28 PM
Not sure if your question has been answered yet, but yes. There is NO statute of limitations for murder. They have all the time in the world providing they can prove that it was murder.

It is very frustrating waiting on this case, but the delay is only pulling the noose tighter.

The tighter LE can make the noose the better.

I don't mind waiting.

Brini
09-14-2008, 06:32 PM
I strongly doubt that and I'll explain why I say that. On the jailhouse call with her brother, I think the first one. She's rambling through her lies and he says to her, "we're going to find out". He was insistent on that. He said he wasn't going to go round and round with her especially seeing what their mother (Cindy) has been going through.

Oh! Great point! There was a bit of a warning tone in his voice, too, wasn't there?

Brini
09-14-2008, 06:33 PM
Not sure if your question has been answered yet, but yes. There is NO statute of limitations for murder. They have all the time in the world providing they can prove that it was murder.

It is very frustrating waiting on this case, but the delay is only pulling the noose tighter.

Yesw. I try to remember that, when I want to fly to FL and start throttling people.

Brini
09-14-2008, 06:39 PM
Brini, I totally agree with you. There's no disputing what they found in the trunk of that car. This woman knows what happened to that child and that's what is so infuriating about this case. She's in the comfort of her own home and doesn't seem to have any trouble sleeping at night while the rest of the world is trying to find that little girl. I just have a fear that if they don't have enough hard evidence to convince a jury there's no room for "reasonable doubt", she may walk. That would be the epitomy of injustice for Caylee.

Well, most crimes are prosecuted on circumstantial evidence. The evidence here is: Who had custody of Caylee? In whose car was the forensic evidence found? Who has been refusing to cooperate with LE? BIM! BAM! BOOM!

If KC was smarter, she'd look up and see the guillotine blade hanging over her head. Sadly for here, she has more ego than brains.

Kalie61
09-14-2008, 09:26 PM
With most of the cases that do not have a body, there is usually a strong case against the defendent, through investigation. In the case mentioned there is a viloent past and threats made against the victim. There is history of it.

Thats how they get convictions in case with out a body. I don't see that with KC. You can prove she is a liar, and you can prove she was a neglectful mother. That's all you can prove. No weapon, no body, no motive, no intent, no history of abuse, no crime scene, nothing that say without a doubt the child is dead.

I hope they have more, but what they have released so far isn't enough, nor should it be enough. There always has to be a high standard to prove that someone committed murder. In most cases with out a body, and the defendent has been convicted that standard was met. It hasn't even come close to being met here.

pizmex
09-14-2008, 09:51 PM
Accidental death by Chloroform? Casey searched Chloroform on that laptop...I also think if it was accidental, Casey wouldn't be keeping silent this long. JMO

Casey might have powerful incentives to remain silent even if Caylee died from chloroform exposure under hypothetically accidental circumstances.

The reason is that not all accidents are considered equal under the law, and that Casey would be subject to criminal responsibility for some accidents.

For example, if Casey exposed Caylee to a fatal and lethal amount of chloroform, mistakenly yet sincerely believing that Caylee would merely fall asleep for a few hours, Casey would be subject to a harsh prison sentence (life in prison but no death penalty because of the lack of premeditation, intent and understanding of her actions). Casey would be deemed criminally responsible because under this hypothetical set of facts, Casey intentionally exposed Caylee to the chloroform even though she never intended to kill the child. Here, Casey might argue that the death itself was accidental and unintended. But Caylee's exposure to the chloroform was deliberate and intended. Casey's conduct would be deemed reckless, or indifferent or some such classification.

On the other hand, if Casey and Caylee were walking in the park innocently and minding their own business, and a stranger spilled a lethal amount of chloroform on Caylee ... well this would be one example of the type of accident for which Casey would not be held criminally responsible.

Starr58
09-18-2008, 07:36 PM
THAT is what I was trying to ask and thank you Red for helping me clarify it. Okay so seeing as how this little loophole is a possibility and Baez knows it, I guess the pressure is on the prosecution? I'm asking because somewhere in the little dark place in my gut that tells me I better get ready because she might get off easy on this. I pray it doesn't happen. But the way things are going some days it's hard to feel like justice will be served. But we'll see.

Thanks again for clearing that up for me. Appreciate it

Okay so i am confused:bang:

If Casey is not charged with murder prior to being convicted on the child neglect charge, assuming she is convicted, she CAN or CANNOT be charged with Caylee's murder after conviction???:waitasec:

Maui4me
09-18-2008, 07:38 PM
me too Starr, I have heard it both ways.... but mostly I have heard that she must be charged with murder prior to the child neglect being tried. I have not seen a definitive answer to this question.

nobull
09-18-2008, 10:43 PM
Trust me, Casey does not want to go to jail on any charges, especially if she will be mainstreamed into the rest of the jail/prison population. And that would be the Corrections Dept's decision, not Casey's and not her atty's.

Remember what inmates think of alleged baby killers? She wouldn't last in there a week.

suspicious mind
09-19-2008, 12:09 AM
But convicted of what? If the "sources" are correct, LE is leaning toward accidental death as a possibility. It's possible that Casey wouldn't even do jail time for that.

I think that was the point of offering her "lmited immunity". W/o a body or a confession, they cannot prove it was accidental. They will have to go for murder. They have enough , IMO to go for it.

California Dreamer
09-19-2008, 12:15 AM
Another conviction without a body is Christy Wilson in California, who was last seen with Mario Garcia, and who it appears she met the same evening at the Thunder Valley Casino and left the casino with. The surveillance tape didn't show past the entrance to the casino, but her car was found left in the parking lot. Crime scene investigators found Christie’s hair and miniscule amounts of her DNA in several places in Garcia’s car. There was nothing to indicate she died (i.e., a death band on the hair). Defense strategies included trying to prove that she was troubled (suggesting suicide), and also that she had prior domestic disputes with her boyfriend, who was at home, and tried to shift the blame to him.

From http://www.findchristiewilson.com/News.asp:
"Without a body or a murder weapon, prosecutor Garen Horst, along with some 700-odd pieces of evidence, convinced a jury of Garcia's guilt. He's serving a 59-year-to life sentence for the murder."

crimesolver4U
09-19-2008, 12:36 AM
It is very possible that they will go for murder one but she will get convicted of intentional negligent manslaughter since they will likely not be able to show intent to murder. Even if they find a body they will likely not be able to show cause of death or how it was committed as so much time has passed and all the tissue is likely gone. Also with children it is difficult to prove murder as most children are killed by someone they know and it is through strangulation or smothering

one_hooah_wife
10-08-2008, 09:18 PM
The last thread on this was closed ... but it seems like it might be relevant to discuss and be informed. There is really great information on this site in particular.

http://www.nobodymurdercases.com/index.html

Snipped


"For over 12 years I was an Assistant United States Attorney in the District of Columbia and I prosecuted homicide cases for most of those years. In January of 2006, I prosecuted the second "no body" murder case tried in D.C. and have been interested in "no body" cases ever since.
On this site I track "no body" murder cases, trials and investigations. My table of "No body" Murder Trials lists nearly 300 "no body" murder trials in the United States. I also have consulted, for free, with law enforcement agencies throughout the United States and Canada. If you know of a "no body" case, investigation, or trial, contact me and I'd be happy to add it to my table or blog about it.
All the best,
Thomas A. (Tad) DiBiase, "No Body" Guy"

one_hooah_wife
10-08-2008, 09:32 PM
Thanks Mods ... I thought that this thread said "closed" when I searched it.

LinasK
10-21-2008, 12:36 AM
Man convicted of murdering couple thrown off yacht

By AMY TAXIN – 59 minutes ago
SANTA ANA, Calif. (AP) — A man was convicted Monday of murdering three people, including a couple who were tied to an anchor and thrown off their yacht off the California coast.
An Orange County jury found Skylar Deleon, 29, guilty of three counts of first-degree murder and special circumstances for financial gain and multiple victims.
<snip>
Tom and Jackie Hawks were thrown from their yacht in 2004 during a cruise to show the vessel to Deleon, whom they believed was a prospective buyer.
Deleon was also found guilty of murdering Jon Jarvi, of Anaheim, in 2003. Prosecutors had said Deleon met Jarvi in a work furlough program while serving jail time for burglary, and killed him in Mexico after Jarvi gave him $50,000.
Prosecutors said Deleon feigned interest in buying the boat and took a test cruise where he and two other men overpowered the Hawkses, forced the couple to sign over ownership of the boat, tied them to the anchor and dumped them into the Pacific Ocean.
The Hawkses' bodies were never found.
more at link:http://ap.google.com/article/ALeqM5hJ8iiUuW3dwnrWgQmZ2DvGS-WdbAD93UKT4G0

Pixie_Dust
10-21-2008, 12:47 AM
doesnt the defense have to disclose all there discovery as well? It sure will be telling to see what documents they have to prove she is inocent, it seems to me that the only thing they have is what LE has given to them that they will try and pick apart, but as it has been said they have dotted there i's and crossed there t's. Now i would like to now if casey still has this note of direction she was to follow for 30 days... but im sure a hand writting analys will have a hayday with it. they having nothing in black and white just her story that has been proven is nothing but lies. and the 31 days will seal her fate.. the death penalty.

nancy botwin
10-21-2008, 12:51 AM
Man convicted of murdering couple thrown off yacht

By AMY TAXIN – 59 minutes ago
SANTA ANA, Calif. (AP) — A man was convicted Monday of murdering three people, including a couple who were tied to an anchor and thrown off their yacht off the California coast.
An Orange County jury found Skylar Deleon, 29, guilty of three counts of first-degree murder and special circumstances for financial gain and multiple victims.
<snip>
Tom and Jackie Hawks were thrown from their yacht in 2004 during a cruise to show the vessel to Deleon, whom they believed was a prospective buyer.
Deleon was also found guilty of murdering Jon Jarvi, of Anaheim, in 2003. Prosecutors had said Deleon met Jarvi in a work furlough program while serving jail time for burglary, and killed him in Mexico after Jarvi gave him $50,000.
Prosecutors said Deleon feigned interest in buying the boat and took a test cruise where he and two other men overpowered the Hawkses, forced the couple to sign over ownership of the boat, tied them to the anchor and dumped them into the Pacific Ocean.
The Hawkses' bodies were never found.
more at link:http://ap.google.com/article/ALeqM5hJ8iiUuW3dwnrWgQmZ2DvGS-WdbAD93UKT4G0

omg I read about that case a while ago-- the murderer was a POWER RANGER.

faefrost
10-21-2008, 12:51 AM
Ok here is one important thing that alot of people seem to miss about this case. there is one HUGE diference between this case and many of the others that were brought without a body. While Caylee's body has not been located, the materials found in the trunk are enough to constitute human remains. Hence they can prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that Caylee is dead, and that a very dead Caylee was transported in that vehicle. That is a huge jump in evidence from simply not having a body.

Besides the obvious desire to put the poor litle girl to rest, the other major reason for finding the body at this point would be to try and determine a firm mechanism of death. But the actual burden of proving a death has occured is pretty much past at this point. based on TB's slip up the other day even the defense realizes this.

Angel Who Cares
10-21-2008, 04:29 AM
I posted this yesterday in the media links-sticky threads yesterday. Seeing it is the subject of this thread I will post it here for those who are interested in the subject!

1987 Case Proves Conviction Without Body Possible-Search For Caylee News Story
Lake Mary, FL:

http://cfnews13.com/MediaPlayer2/MediaPlayer.htm?video=CASEYFIRSTAPPEAROS_101520081 255&cat=Local&title=Court%20Day%20For%20Casey

Brini
10-21-2008, 12:23 PM
We have a case in Ohio (30 miles from my house) where there was a conviction without a body, anyone know others would like to hope there is a chance if Caylee isn't found alive that Casey will pay.

Facts (http://www.findcarrieculberson.com/quickfacts.html)

Justice For Vince (http://www.justiceforvincent.com/)

Web Sleuth (http://websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=6572)

There was a special on ID re: this, a few days ago.

One case off the top of my head. I don't remember where it was.

Beautiful little girl. No daddy. Mom trolled local bars for boyfriends. One of those ladies who MUST "have a man."

One guy really impressed Mom by writing his phone # on a $50 bill.

Predictably, Mom and the guy got together. The little girl vanished. Her body was never found, but he went to death row, IIRC.

Brini
10-21-2008, 12:25 PM
Ok here is one important thing that alot of people seem to miss about this case. there is one HUGE diference between this case and many of the others that were brought without a body. While Caylee's body has not been located, the materials found in the trunk are enough to constitute human remains. Hence they can prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that Caylee is dead, and that a very dead Caylee was transported in that vehicle. That is a huge jump in evidence from simply not having a body.

Besides the obvious desire to put the poor litle girl to rest, the other major reason for finding the body at this point would be to try and determine a firm mechanism of death. But the actual burden of proving a death has occured is pretty much past at this point. based on TB's slip up the other day even the defense realizes this.

..which is prolly why LP said that "enough of Caylee was found" to prosecute.

Brini
10-21-2008, 12:28 PM
It is very possible that they will go for murder one but she will get convicted of intentional negligent manslaughter since they will likely not be able to show intent to murder. Even if they find a body they will likely not be able to show cause of death or how it was committed as so much time has passed and all the tissue is likely gone. Also with children it is difficult to prove murder as most children are killed by someone they know and it is through strangulation or smothering

My guess is that they can prove intent.

But, even if they can't, they likely have enough charges to keep her in jail until she is older, and maybe less dangerous.

Brini
10-21-2008, 12:30 PM
I strongly doubt that and I'll explain why I say that. On the jailhouse call with her brother, I think the first one. She's rambling through her lies and he says to her, "we're going to find out". He was insistent on that. He said he wasn't going to go round and round with her especially seeing what their mother (Cindy) has been going through.

Excellent point! Thanks!

kpalma715
10-21-2008, 12:42 PM
Hi,

I found this article, it kind of reminds me of Caylee Anthony case, in some ways. I hope its ok, if I copy and paste it here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Azaria_Chamberlain_disappearance

It was just showing how the evidence was in the car, the mother had no emotions, no body was ever found.

Chemaster
10-22-2008, 06:36 PM
I may be wrong but the jury may be less sentimental to CA's cause without the body.

There has been other Mom's / Dad's guilty of murdering their children and getting less then 5 years in prison. However, the thought of a child's body left to the elements may push the jury to 'make a statement'!

dreamerlin
10-22-2008, 06:45 PM
I think there may be a lighter sentence if cause of death cannot be established. It would seem the more horrific the details the more weight that would carry.

2goldfish
10-22-2008, 07:06 PM
I may be wrong but the jury may be less sentimental to CA's cause without the body.

There has been other Mom's / Dad's guilty of murdering their children and getting less then 5 years in prison. However, the thought of a child's body left to the elements may push the jury to 'make a statement'!

you know, what I think will hang her (so to speak) is the absolute and complete lack of care/sadness, etc...during the 31 days, and since. very hard to sympathize with someone who sure has no sympathy for anyone else.

feddup
10-22-2008, 07:14 PM
Another conviction without a body is Christy Wilson in California, who was last seen with Mario Garcia, and who it appears she met the same evening at the Thunder Valley Casino and left the casino with. The surveillance tape didn't show past the entrance to the casino, but her car was found left in the parking lot. Crime scene investigators found Christie’s hair and miniscule amounts of her DNA in several places in Garcia’s car. There was nothing to indicate she died (i.e., a death band on the hair). Defense strategies included trying to prove that she was troubled (suggesting suicide), and also that she had prior domestic disputes with her boyfriend, who was at home, and tried to shift the blame to him.

From http://www.findchristiewilson.com/News.asp:
"Without a body or a murder weapon, prosecutor Garen Horst, along with some 700-odd pieces of evidence, convinced a jury of Garcia's guilt. He's serving a 59-year-to life sentence for the murder."

I saw the show abou that case on 48 Hours Mysteries.....
Like in KC;s, they used video to show where he has been, etc. The last time she was ever seen was when she walked out of the Casino with him and it was on the video.
wow, I sure hope KC doesnt get off easy because they cant find Caylees body. The story about the little girl in FL and no body found is kind of worrying.
Hopefully they will find Caylees body but it sure seems like she had the advantage waiting 30 days. She got a 30 day running start:(

mommaearth
11-11-2008, 12:53 PM
I appologize if there has been another tread about this subject.

I am so disapointed that they did not find Caylee this weekend or in previous searches. I thought that this would be the piece of the puzzle needed to put Casey away forever for sentence her to death.

I will not give up hope she will be found before trial but, I am trying to move past it in case she isn't found and think about Casey's chances of being convicted of first degree murder without a body. IMO I would just as soon see her rot in jail for the rest of her life than be sentenced to death.

Here are some cases I found just curious to hear everyones thoughts.

http://dianedimond.net/no-body-no-trial-no-way/
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,438661,00.html
http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/local/179898_navyside29x.html

Clock's Tickin
11-11-2008, 01:01 PM
A case in my town tried and convicted a man of killing his ex-wife with no forensics! The only witness was a drunk with a photographic memory who saw the man and a friend putting a heavy plastic bag into the trunk of a car at a hotel. The bag "moved" and the man called security-who did not even respond! Once they convicted guy #1, guy #2 took LE to the body for a reduced sentence. Had the drunk not remembered a partial plate # and been able to point out guy #2 in a line-up-LE would have nothing. No forensics----jury had no reasonable doubt---go figure!

Elphaba
11-11-2008, 01:07 PM
Well, the former kid actor that was found guilty of killing that couple in California was handed the death penalty... so conviction and getting the DP without a body IS possible:


http://www.postchronicle.com/news/original/article_212184728.shtml

Irish_Eyes
11-11-2008, 02:53 PM
Without a body, the prosecution is going to have to break it down for the jury something like this maybe:

1) Caylee was not quite three when she disappeared. She obviously didn't run away. She has no capacity to care for herself.

2) She was last seen with her mother, KC (per GA statement) on June 16. No credible sighting has been reported since, despite massive publicity and search efforts.

3) Mother did not report child missing, and once reported, Mother wasted precious time and resources diverting LE from efforts to find child. It's reasonable to ask jury to believe mother does not want child found.

4) Motive - LE will try to show that KC blamed her "mistake" daughter as the source of her frustrations in life. KC felt CA used Caylee to control her, and Caylee was generally "in the way" of what KC wanted to do in life.

5) Motive - LE will try to show that no one else had sufficient motive to kill Caylee.

6) Means - KC searched chloroform - chloroform was found in KC trunk in abnormal levels - conditions in trunk are consistent with a decompositional event. Essentially, somebody with knowledge of chloroform and access to KC trunk transported a decomposing human individual. Chloroform and trunk are the means, IMHO.

7) Opportunity - Someone had access to chloroform, Caylee, and the trunk of KC's car between June 16 and June 30 when car is towed. KC notes smell in text to amy on June 24, so likely this window of time is even smaller. How many people had access to KC car in that time frame? Using cell pings and EZ pass records from KC and others, how precisely can LE pinpoint who was driving the car in this time? Who else had keys to the car?

8) LE will submit to the jury that it is beyond reasonable doubt, because the other alternative that somebody other than KC transported a deceased human other than Caylee in the trunk of that car during the exact period of time that KC daughter went missing and is still unaccounted for is not "reasonable".

rosepetal1065
11-11-2008, 03:29 PM
All of these are really good examples. I think there's a good chance of her going down for this. Although I want her to "fry", I'll take life or damn near life.
I feel bad when I think of Caylee, dying at the hands of her own mom. Little ones are so vulnerable, and they need us so much. How could anyone be so heartless. What a POS.

panthera
11-11-2008, 06:10 PM
Without a body, the prosecution is going to have to break it down for the jury something like this maybe:

1) Caylee was not quite three when she disappeared. She obviously didn't run away. She has no capacity to care for herself.

2) She was last seen with her mother, KC (per GA statement) on June 16. No credible sighting has been reported since, despite massive publicity and search efforts.

3) Mother did not report child missing, and once reported, Mother wasted precious time and resources diverting LE from efforts to find child. It's reasonable to ask jury to believe mother does not want child found.

4) Motive - LE will try to show that KC blamed her "mistake" daughter as the source of her frustrations in life. KC felt CA used Caylee to control her, and Caylee was generally "in the way" of what KC wanted to do in life.

5) Motive - LE will try to show that no one else had sufficient motive to kill Caylee.

6) Means - KC searched chloroform - chloroform was found in KC trunk in abnormal levels - conditions in trunk are consistent with a decompositional event. Essentially, somebody with knowledge of chloroform and access to KC trunk transported a decomposing human individual. Chloroform and trunk are the means, IMHO.

7) Opportunity - Someone had access to chloroform, Caylee, and the trunk of KC's car between June 16 and June 30 when car is towed. KC notes smell in text to amy on June 24, so likely this window of time is even smaller. How many people had access to KC car in that time frame? Using cell pings and EZ pass records from KC and others, how precisely can LE pinpoint who was driving the car in this time? Who else had keys to the car?

8) LE will submit to the jury that it is beyond reasonable doubt, because the other alternative that somebody other than KC transported a deceased human other than Caylee in the trunk of that car during the exact period of time that KC daughter went missing and is still unaccounted for is not "reasonable".
Excellent post! :clap: I also think they will introduce Casey's activities during the period of time from when Caylee was last seen to the time she was arrested. There is no evidence of her searching for Caylee, but instead photos of her partying at Fusion, living at TL's and setting up house with him, getting a "good life" tattoo, spending Amy's money at various stores and cashing a check at the bank, etc. And of course the numerous lies she told people about Caylee being with the nanny at the beach and other places, with no concern from Casey where Caylee was. MOO

DotsEyes
11-11-2008, 07:39 PM
I think I can answer some of these questions and I base my responses on the information that is available to us via forensics and interviews. The State can prove the following six things:

1. KC admitted that Caylee had been missing for 31 days. She did not report the child missing, kidnapped, injured. The testimony of friends and family corroborate that Caylee was no where to be found during those 31 days. Failing to report a kidnapping or mention that the child was missing is neglect.

2. A dead human was in the A's backyard, as discovered by the dogs. (and perhaps some forensic tests that we do not have yet).

3. A dead human was in KC's car trunk, as proven by the forensics sniffer tests. Caylee's hair was also in the trunk, at least one of her hairs displayed the 'death band". The death band tells us Caylee is dead. It is therefore more probable than not (a legal term) that the decomp evidence is from Caylee and not from some other person.

4. When interviewed by LE, she showed no real concern for her missing baby and insisted that the child was kidnapped by an imaginary Zanny. This shows deception as she most certainly drove the car with the decomp smell in it, she admitted the stench to at least one person.

5. During the time between June 15th and July 15th, she avoided anyone who would question the whereabouts of her child and told no one that her child was missing, kidnapped, etc. She used other people's cars and eventually abandonned her vehicle for 3 days at Amscot. She knew that the car smelled and admitted that she cleaned it which tells us she was in the trunk, with the smell.

6. Someone removed the body from the trunk.

Now, there is no body. It can not be proven that KC killed Caylee, whether by accident or intent. All that can be proven is that Caylee is dead and was likely in the trunk of the car that her mother used during the time in question. That is it.

However, IF and I say IF, there is sufficient chloroform evidence that tells us the chloroform cannot be explained as coming from any place other than an outside source, it can reasonably be deduced that the person with the sole use of the car put the chloroform in the car. (it is unreasonable to think that someone else entered the car to pour chlorofom into the trunk).

Chloroform is deadly and screams intent. This means if the chloroform can not be reasonably explained, that someone intentionally put the chloroform in the trunk. IF KC did Google chloroform and how to make it at home, then it can reasonably be deduced that she was interested in the effects of the chemical. The presence of chloroform in the trunk after the Google search can reasonably be assumed that she learned how to make it or how to use it. The chloroform is not found any where else, just the trunk which contained Caylee's body. It is reasonable to deduce that the death of Caylee and the presence of chloroform are linked. There is no innocent explanation for chloroform - even if she is too stupid to think that it is deadly.

Without the chloroform, I do not believe that the State can prove the requisite intent in order to proceed with a capital case. It is my opinion that the chloroform is the essential element to prove murder, rather than accident.

Even if her body is found, there may not be any evidence of murder.

The State's case is not a slam dunk - at least as far as I can see.

passionflower
11-11-2008, 08:06 PM
Think of the wood chip murder, no body, husband went to jail murder 1 anyway......
of course hasking confessed and LE found pieces in city dump of Lori. IMO,
there IS enough to put KC away!!! and the theft charges!!! to back it up........years gone!!! She will be an old hag by the time she gets out, I pray, IMO

LinasK
11-11-2008, 08:57 PM
Without the chloroform, I do not believe that the State can prove the requisite intent in order to proceed with a capital case. It is my opinion that the chloroform is the essential element to prove murder, rather than accident.

Even if her body is found, there may not be any evidence of murder.

The State's case is not a slam dunk - at least as far as I can see.

Obviously a 2.5 year old, with no known major health problems didn't die of natural causes!:doh: The chloroform searches and looking up missing children's websites months in advance scream premeditation. Her child was a nuisance to her, which is why she described her as "the little snothead", and my "offspring" to others. Those were not spoken as terms of endearment! Caylee did not die of drowning or heat exhaustion. The state has the proof it needs to show Casey killed her with chloroform and it wasn't accidental!

jandkmom
11-11-2008, 09:03 PM
I think I can answer some of these questions and I base my responses on the information that is available to us via forensics and interviews. The State can prove the following six things:

1. KC admitted that Caylee had been missing for 31 days. She did not report the child missing, kidnapped, injured. The testimony of friends and family corroborate that Caylee was no where to be found during those 31 days. Failing to report a kidnapping or mention that the child was missing is neglect.

2. A dead human was in the A's backyard, as discovered by the dogs. (and perhaps some forensic tests that we do not have yet).

3. A dead human was in KC's car trunk, as proven by the forensics sniffer tests. Caylee's hair was also in the trunk, at least one of her hairs displayed the 'death band". The death band tells us Caylee is dead. It is therefore more probable than not (a legal term) that the decomp evidence is from Caylee and not from some other person.

4. When interviewed by LE, she showed no real concern for her missing baby and insisted that the child was kidnapped by an imaginary Zanny. This shows deception as she most certainly drove the car with the decomp smell in it, she admitted the stench to at least one person.

5. During the time between June 15th and July 15th, she avoided anyone who would question the whereabouts of her child and told no one that her child was missing, kidnapped, etc. She used other people's cars and eventually abandonned her vehicle for 3 days at Amscot. She knew that the car smelled and admitted that she cleaned it which tells us she was in the trunk, with the smell.

6. Someone removed the body from the trunk.

Now, there is no body. It can not be proven that KC killed Caylee, whether by accident or intent. All that can be proven is that Caylee is dead and was likely in the trunk of the car that her mother used during the time in question. That is it.

However, IF and I say IF, there is sufficient chloroform evidence that tells us the chloroform cannot be explained as coming from any place other than an outside source, it can reasonably be deduced that the person with the sole use of the car put the chloroform in the car. (it is unreasonable to think that someone else entered the car to pour chlorofom into the trunk).

Chloroform is deadly and screams intent. This means if the chloroform can not be reasonably explained, that someone intentionally put the chloroform in the trunk. IF KC did Google chloroform and how to make it at home, then it can reasonably be deduced that she was interested in the effects of the chemical. The presence of chloroform in the trunk after the Google search can reasonably be assumed that she learned how to make it or how to use it. The chloroform is not found any where else, just the trunk which contained Caylee's body. It is reasonable to deduce that the death of Caylee and the presence of chloroform are linked. There is no innocent explanation for chloroform - even if she is too stupid to think that it is deadly.

Without the chloroform, I do not believe that the State can prove the requisite intent in order to proceed with a capital case. It is my opinion that the chloroform is the essential element to prove murder, rather than accident.

Even if her body is found, there may not be any evidence of murder.

The State's case is not a slam dunk - at least as far as I can see.

Excellent post. I don't agree that she can't be convicted of murder though. Since she never admitted to anyone, that we know of, of an accident when LE has given her plenty of opportunities to, even during her questioning offering up that excuse. She has repeatedly lied to everyone, partying while her child was dead and possibly still in her trunk, seems to show a very shallow and uncaring person. If they can prove that Caylee has died, I think a jury can be convinced that she was murdered instead of an accident.

gitana1
11-11-2008, 10:19 PM
There is a case going on right now, her in California. A 3 year old girl went missing in the late 60's, I think in 1969. Her mother lied for all these years about the child's whereabouts, telling the bio-dad that the child was living with her boyfriend's mother and later, that she was in high school in Canada, IIRC. The mom and her boyfriend moved to Illinois soon after the child disappeared. The father never gave up trying to find out what happened and launched a private investigation in 2004. It led LE to open the case. The little girl had two older brothers. One, age 6 at the time, remembered the last night she was seen. The girl came in the brother's room and said, "Hide me. Hide me." Then, the mother came in and took the child out. The brother never saw his baby sister again. Due to LE's investigation, the ex-boyfriend was interviwed. He confessed that the mother was alone with the child in the room and that he helped her bury the baby in a canyon later on. He said he did not know what happened to the child. The mother never spoke. She is now on trial. The ex was charged but died in jail. The defense is now trying to say that the ex did it and that the mom was afraid of him and afriad to find out what happened to her child. But, again, in all these years, she has never spoken.
http://www.latimes.com/news/local/orange/la-me-prentice11-2008nov11,0,4936054.story
The body of the baby was never found. I remember an article when this case first broke awhile back. The ex actually took investigators to the area where he helped bury the baby but they could find nothing. I think the mother will be convicted.

Irish_Eyes
11-12-2008, 02:56 AM
\
3. A dead human was in KC's car trunk, as proven by the forensics sniffer tests. Caylee's hair was also in the trunk, at least one of her hairs displayed the 'death band". The death band tells us Caylee is dead. It is therefore more probable than not (a legal term) that the decomp evidence is from Caylee and not from some other person.

...

However, IF and I say IF, there is sufficient chloroform evidence that tells us the chloroform cannot be explained as coming from any place other than an outside source, it can reasonably be deduced that the person with the sole use of the car put the chloroform in the car. (it is unreasonable to think that someone else entered the car to pour chlorofom into the trunk).

...

The State's case is not a slam dunk - at least as far as I can see.


I agree. In fact, I posted something similar earlier. Great minds think alike :)
And you're right it's not a slam dunk. I think the prosecutors will need to lead the jurors very carefully through the body farm evidence, which is pretty dry and technical. However, I think a talented prosecutor might be able to sway a jury, and again, chloroform and access to that trunk are the keys.

Also, For as mad as we get at KC about all her partying and callousness, it just might help her get convicted. For most jurors, I imagine just the fact that KC never reports Caylee missing to the police, and never even tells her family or close friends is going to carry a lot of weight. Some jurors however might say "Well, maybe it was an accident and she was too afraid/ashamed/upset to talk about it..." But then let the prosecutor bust out the Fusion pics, the Lake Vaj pics, the "come out and party with me on Friday!" texts, and I think the jury will see that this was not a frantic mother desperately searching for her child, consumed by the need to find her and bring her home safely.

Anyone read Sharon Rocha's account of her days when Laci was missing? KC better hope none of the jurors did, because that is the account of a grieving mother. KC's behavior resembles Paris Hilton more than Sharon Rocha.


Wonder what JB's defense will be? If he goes with accident, KC would have to take the stand, no? (You think JB's worried about suborning perjory?)
Or will he go with something like "KC's ill, but she didn't do it. She didn't report it or act normally after the disappearance because of her illness, not because she's guilty". Will it still be the one-armed man - oh wait, wrong patsy - I mean ZFG???

TURBOTHINK
11-12-2008, 03:30 AM
Ok here is one important thing that alot of people seem to miss about this case. there is one HUGE diference between this case and many of the others that were brought without a body. While Caylee's body has not been located, the materials found in the trunk are enough to constitute human remains. Hence they can prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that Caylee is dead, and that a very dead Caylee was transported in that vehicle. That is a huge jump in evidence from simply not having a body.

Besides the obvious desire to put the poor litle girl to rest, the other major reason for finding the body at this point would be to try and determine a firm mechanism of death. But the actual burden of proving a death has occured is pretty much past at this point. based on TB's slip up the other day even the defense realizes this.

It is similar to the guy who put a 5 year old in the trunk of his car and then to be eaten by alligators. It took the jury 3 days to convict him.

MaedchenX
11-12-2008, 03:42 AM
I have not read through the entire thread so I do not know whether it has been mentioned before, but I found the following case at the Doe Network site.

snipped:
(File 2663DFPA) Katelyn Selena Rivera-Helton

"Katelyn was last known to be in the company of her father, Robert N. Rivera. He has since been taken into custody but will not reveal the whereabouts of Katelyn.

Rivera ran off with the little girl from the babysitter's Conchester Avenue home about 11 a.m. on August 10, 1999, after assaulting her mother in the parking lot of a nearby convenience store.
Except for a pacifier, Rivera took nothing with them.

Rivera called Helton 15 to 20 times that day, saying he and Katelyn were visiting parks and eating at McDonald's, and that they might go to Brandywine Zoo. Helton spoke at least once by phone with Katelyn that afternoon.

Rivera was last seen with Katelyn at a gas station at Route 1 and 100 in Chester County. Police later reported that Katelyn was fine, standing in the back seat and looking out the window.

Rivera was next seen about 10 p.m., when he arrived alone at a friend's trailer along the Elk River, five miles south of Elkton. Rivera's Maryland hosts asked him to leave the next morning because of the odd way he was acting. When he left the community located about 40 miles from Helton's Upper Chichester residence, they noticed a shovel missing from the property. It was recovered August 23 at a construction site along Route 40 in Elkton, Maryland. After learning about the shovel, police searched for Katelyn's body in dense woods near the trailer and along the river. Police searched the site and dredged a pond, but found nothing.

A dirty yellow sock and a laceless rhinestone-studded sneaker her mother positively identified as Katelyn's were recovered by investigators along busy Route 202 in Delaware.
Rivera was alone about 2 p.m. on August 11, when he turned up at the home of Helton's parents, and surrendered to police.

Rivera first told authorities he gave the baby away to a couple at Longwood Gardens. He has since backed off from that claim after investigators couldn't find any of corroborating evidence.

Rivera, who is part Puerto Rican, had previously threatened to take Katelyn to Puerto Rico. Rivera was unemployed and his driver's license was suspended.

Robert Norman Rivera was convicted in 2002 of murdering Katelyn. He was sentenced to life without parole"

There are so many aspects of this tragic case which are eerily similar to Casey's lies and what likely happened to Caylee, I can only hope that the outcome will also be the same in a court of law.

LetJusticePrevail
11-12-2008, 03:58 AM
Irish Eyes, I am going to hang on every letter of every word you said in your post. I hope you are right. I hope the prosecution has some behind the scenes gems we've not seen - I told my bf, who's a lawyer, that I hate him the other night cause he said there are so many loopholes. I hope justice will be served for Caylee!




I agree. In fact, I posted something similar earlier. Great minds think alike :)
And you're right it's not a slam dunk. I think the prosecutors will need to lead the jurors very carefully through the body farm evidence, which is pretty dry and technical. However, I think a talented prosecutor might be able to sway a jury, and again, chloroform and access to that trunk are the keys.

Also, For as mad as we get at KC about all her partying and callousness, it just might help her get convicted. For most jurors, I imagine just the fact that KC never reports Caylee missing to the police, and never even tells her family or close friends is going to carry a lot of weight. Some jurors however might say "Well, maybe it was an accident and she was too afraid/ashamed/upset to talk about it..." But then let the prosecutor bust out the Fusion pics, the Lake Vaj pics, the "come out and party with me on Friday!" texts, and I think the jury will see that this was not a frantic mother desperately searching for her child, consumed by the need to find her and bring her home safely.

Anyone read Sharon Rocha's account of her days when Laci was missing? KC better hope none of the jurors did, because that is the account of a grieving mother. KC's behavior resembles Paris Hilton more than Sharon Rocha.


Wonder what JB's defense will be? If he goes with accident, KC would have to take the stand, no? (You think JB's worried about suborning perjory?)
Or will he go with something like "KC's ill, but she didn't do it. She didn't report it or act normally after the disappearance because of her illness, not because she's guilty". Will it still be the one-armed man - oh wait, wrong patsy - I mean ZFG???

sandcastles4me
11-12-2008, 05:12 PM
Here is a case I watched about on TruTv yesterday. Ashley Lashay Jones went missing in 1996 from her home in Memphis, Tennessee. Her Aunt was charged in her murder when Ashleys blood found in the Aunt's car trunk. The body of Ashley has never been found. The Aunt was convicted and charged for 2nd degree murder and other charges and is serving a 35 year sentence.
Google Ashley LaShay Jones to read more on the case

s_finch
11-17-2008, 12:03 PM
MODS please feel free to delete this if there is already a thread or discussion on this.

Just in case CA isn't ever found, what precedent cases are there for trials where the victim's body wasn't ever recovered, including cases in which the prosecution won AND lost---so we can examine the evidence that worked successfully in the won convictions. Of course "burden of evidence" and "beyond a reasonable doubt" are vague terms and every DA, judge and jury is different, but let's compare all these cases to what we know LE has in CA's case.

impatientredhead
11-17-2008, 12:07 PM
MODS please feel free to delete this if there is already a thread or discussion on this.

Just in case CA isn't ever found, what precedent cases are there for trials where the victim's body wasn't ever recovered, including cases in which the prosecution won AND lost---so we can examine the evidence that worked successfully in the won convictions. Of course "burden of evidence" and "beyond a reasonable doubt" are vague terms and every DA, judge and jury is different, but let's compare all these cases to what we know LE has in CA's case.

http://www.nobodymurdercases.com/no_body.pdf

Coley
11-17-2008, 12:28 PM
I don't want this to be discouraging but here is an article written about this very thing a couple of weeks ago.
http://dianedimond.net/no-body-no-trial-no-way/

shotzie
11-17-2008, 12:50 PM
I just watched two different segments the other nite.
"Forensic science" and "Body of evidence" both of those the person's were convicted..

I have all the faith in the system and the Jury to read the writing on the walls. This case should go to Trial..Listening to all this Defense attorney's you would think it won't happen:boohoo:..I will bet it will ..

I didn't open The Diane Diamond article I saw enough of her BS during another trial.:furious:

I think LE has so much evidence that hasn't been released that we hopefully will be shocked..PLZ
LE :blowkiss:

TexasLil
11-17-2008, 12:58 PM
This case is very interesting.

http://www.nampn.org/cases/alsjones.html

weasel
11-17-2008, 01:02 PM
http://www.findcarrieculberson.com/

Carrie Culberson came up missing from our area in 1996. Her body has never been found. Vincent Doan is serving life in prison and his brother was just recently released for tampering with evidence.

shotzie
11-17-2008, 01:05 PM
I just went to Dogpile.com and typed in murder convictions without a body and I found 4 right off the bat..can't figure links but here are the names:
Scharf
Homberg
Merriman
Han Reiser.

There are probably more, but this shows it can be done and with Casey with the evidence in the trunk, I think the Jury will convict.
Forensic and DNA are a great tool today.

Please make Casey pay for this horrendous Crime.:furious:

RIP Caylee

TexasLil
11-17-2008, 01:17 PM
Here is another interesting case where the mother claimed her daughter was kidnapped...

http://www.crimeandjustice.us/forums/index.php?showtopic=6532&st=20

Coley
11-17-2008, 01:21 PM
Here is another interesting case where the mother claimed her daughter was kidnapped...

http://www.crimeandjustice.us/forums/index.php?showtopic=6532&st=20

I feel like I'm in the twilight zone. How weird is it that these 2 cases are just alike?

TexasLil
11-17-2008, 01:26 PM
I feel like I'm in the twilight zone. How weird is it that these 2 cases are just alike?

There are a lot of similarities. The one thing different is this mother actually reported her daughter missing. She begged and pleaded for the kidnapper to return her daughter. She cried over and over and even took the stand in her own defense. We have seen nothing to this affect from Casey or Cindy and George for that matter.

frenchvixen
11-17-2008, 01:45 PM
"Although it’s unknown if there was any particular piece of evidence or testimony that persuaded the jury to reach its verdict, some courtroom observers felt a call McCollough-White’s father, Richard McCollough, made to Conway police the day before Kynande vanished may have tipped the scale towards the state.

A tape of the call was played in court and Mr. McCollough is heard saying he feared Kynande was being abused. He said his daughter would not let him in her apartment, so he was unable to check on Kynande himself."

I hope this is what is the nail in Casey's coffin. Cindy's first 911 phone call and her own father's interview with with the police. I think the jury will see that as very damning that her own parents think that she's a murderer.

Coley
11-17-2008, 01:48 PM
There are a lot of similarities. The one thing different is this mother actually reported her daughter missing. She begged and pleaded for the kidnapper to return her daughter. She cried over and over and even took the stand in her own defense. We have seen nothing to this affect from Casey or Cindy and George for that matter.


True. True.

frenchvixen
11-17-2008, 01:49 PM
Here is another interesting case where the mother claimed her daughter was kidnapped...

http://www.crimeandjustice.us/forums/index.php?showtopic=6532&st=20

I think the state has more evidence against KC than this person. It infuriates me that she only received 20 years though. It wasn't mentioned how old she was but I'm guessing she was in her 20's. She will be out by the time she's 40. It breaks my heart that her father believes her and asked for leniency. This is very similar to KC's cruelty towards her parents. I really think that they believe that Caylee will return and KC is enjoying every bit of torturing her parents.

JMCDAD
11-17-2008, 01:58 PM
I have seen many cases recently on various crime networks that there have been convictions without a body.
Each time I think of this case and Caylee and it gives me hope that the jury will convict KC.

TexasLil
11-17-2008, 02:07 PM
I have seen many cases recently on various crime networks that there have been convictions without a body.
Each time I think of this case and Caylee and it gives me hope that the jury will convict KC.

I am gaining much encouragement by reading about these cases. In many of them cadaver dog hits were some of the strongest evidence. I too believe the 911 call from Cindy will be one of the many "nails in the coffin". IMO

Jolynna
11-17-2008, 02:14 PM
Dr. Bierenbaum was convicted of murdering his wife although the wife's remains were never found.

Dr. Bierenbaum contended that his wife ran away with another man. Or if his wife is no longer living Dr. Bierenbaum's defense said she may have been killed in an accident or by suicide or some other way.


There was NO decomposition in the Dr.'s trunk or any forensic evidence. BUT Dr. Bierenbaum was CONVICTED of murder...

http://topics.nytimes.com/top/reference/timestopics/people/k/gail_katzbierenbaum/index.html

TexasLil
11-17-2008, 02:25 PM
Dr. Bierenbaum was convicted of murdering his wife although the wife's remains were never found.

Dr. Bierenbaum contended that his wife ran away with another man. Or if his wife is no longer living Dr. Bierenbaum's defense said she may have been killed in an accident or by suicide or some other way.


There was NO decomposition in the Dr.'s trunk or any forensic evidence. BUT the Dr. Bierenbaum was CONVICTED of murder...

http://topics.nytimes.com/top/reference/timestopics/people/k/gail_katzbierenbaum/index.html

This is a good case to note where the prosecution didn't even have evidence to prove the victim was dead. I also think this contributes to why the Dr. only received a 20-year sentence. I really enjoyed reading this part... Hopefully with all the evidence LE has on Casey it won't come down to a play such as this on on the defense... nevertheless this one was interesting:

In his closing argument, the lawyer told the jurors that if they had any reasonable doubt they had to acquit the defendant. What if the victim was still ''wandering around,'' he asked aloud.

Then, he cried out, ''Oh my god, there she is!'' The jurors, as one, turned to the courtroom door. Of course, no one was there.

A slam-dunk, or so it would seem. Instead, the jury deliberated for 20 minutes and voted to convict. The forewoman praised the lawyer's tactic, except for one small oversight: The lone person who did not look up to the courtroom door was none other than his client.

JMCDAD
11-17-2008, 02:44 PM
I am gaining much encouragement by reading about these cases. In many of them cadaver dog hits were some of the strongest evidence. I too believe the 911 call from Cindy will be one of the many "nails in the coffin". IMO

agreed
I also think all of the circumstantial evidence, one on top of the other
there is alot of it and it paints the picture of guilt IMO

KellioPSL
11-17-2008, 03:07 PM
One of the dr Baden cases had a woman that was murdered and all that was found was a breast implant, and apparently they have a unique number on them, they contacted her plastic surgeon and that is how they proved she was no longer alive. The husband was convicted.

fifteen89
06-15-2011, 06:53 PM
Thought I'd bump this thread for JB to read before he starts his case tomorrow.

passionflower
06-15-2011, 07:01 PM
http://www.nobodymurdercases.com/tips.pdf

good read