Trial Discussion Thread #7 weekend thread

[delilah]

According to his affidavit, OP was sleeping on the LEFT side of the bed, with his gun on the floor nearby.

I can't find anything in his affidavit that indicates which side he was sleeping. Have I missed it?

OP's plakkies were on the left hand side of the bed as you look at it. RS' bag was also on this side. Ex girlfriend said he always slept on RHS, pres as you look at the bed.

Whichever side he slept, he had to walk past the bed from the balcony to get to the bathroom. Surely it's inconceivable that he wouldn't have noticed or checked if RS was in bed?

If he feels so vulnerable without his prosthetics on, why go into a potentially dangerous situation without them? Why not stop and put them on first?

If he's so paranoid about security, it makes no sense that he left a window unsecured overnight.

And what about the damn dogs below the bathroom window???

 

[delilah]

I want him to be innocent. I think there are many people who want him to be innocent, even if they think he's guilty. I agree with you in that I am willing to give OP the benefit of the doubt (innocent until proven guilty and all) and so far there has been no evidence that suggests premeditation or suggests that he knew he was shooting at Reeva.

I also do not think he could have constructed a story or staged a scene or covered up evidence in the short time he had.

He didn't need to construct a detailed story that night. All he did was to say that he thought he'd heard an intruder. Not a difficult story to come up with in the circumstances.

I don't think he staged the crime scene.

 

[wishIknewmore]

Rensberg did refer to Stander as Oscar's friend during his testimony on Friday.Was it not the duty of Stander the Security Chief, and his lawyer daughter to inform Oscar that first he had to inform the police?

Think we are trying to make different points. My point it about the timing listed.

Regarding your point, I do think it would be Stander's responsibility to either ask if police were called or for Stander to do it. I can see OP"s though process of being to call local security and then expect them to call for backup. This is assuming there wasn't a different direction they were going …as in coverup.

 

[james83]

Anyone who thinks Oscar is innocent please ask yourself why he phoned Johan Stander before an ambulance and see if you can come up with a good answer, it's impossible.

 

[wishIknewmore]

I have trouble believing OP's story. I do believe he has the right to fair trial. Therefore, I've combined OP's affidavit with our most recent timeline. Let's see how it matches up and if it makes sense. His statements are bolded, italicized, and in quotes. I didn't add most of his times because I thought others might have more information. Do what you will with it.


http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worl...o-tragedy.html


COMBINED TIMELINE WITH OP'S AFFIDAVIT :



February 14, 2013


“On the 13th of February 2013 Reeva would have gone out with her friends and I with my friends. Reeva then called me and asked that we rather spend the evening at home. I agreed and we were content to have a quiet dinner together at home.”



6 p.m.- Reeva entered the complex alone in her Mini Cooper.
Pistorius entered the complex shortly thereafter. He was on his phone.

10:00 pm "22h00 on 13 February 2013 we were in our bedroom. She was doing her yoga exercises and I was in bed watching television. My prosthetic legs were off. We were deeply in love and I could not be happier. I know she felt the same way. She had given me a present for Valentine's Day but asked me only to open it the next day.”


Time? “After Reeva finished her yoga exercises she got into bed and we both fell asleep.”


1:56 a.m.- Merwe heard what sounded like a woman's voice on one side of an argument, she heard it on and off for about an hour

Estelle van der Merwe:
Quote:
“I woke up the morning at 1:56am to sounds of someone talking loudly and fighting,’’ she told the court. “It lasted about an hour.’’
http://www.news.com.au/world/africa/...-1226845099657

2:20 a.m.- Baba stated in court that at 2.20 am everything seemed normal during a security check

TIME? 3:10’ish???? “During the early morning hours of 14 February 2013, I woke up, went onto the balcony to bring the fan in and closed the sliding doors, the blinds and the curtains. I heard a noise in the bathroom and realised that someone was in the bathroom.
I felt a sense of terror rushing over me. There are no burglar bars across the bathroom window and I knew that contractors who worked at my house had left the ladders outside. Although I did not have my prosthetic legs on I have mobility on my stumps.
I believed that someone had entered my house. I was too scared to switch a light on.
I grabbed my 9mm pistol from underneath my bed. “

3:00a.m- Burger woken by screams:

Quote:
Michell Burger, a lecturer at the University of Pretoria who lived 170m away on a neighbouring estate to Pistorius, said she was woken at 3am "from a woman's terrible screams".
She said the woman "yelled for help" and then she heard a man screaming for help three times, before shots were fired.
She said that there was a gap between the first shot and the next three, describing it as "bang (pause), bang bang bang."
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worl...-by-shots.html

TIME? “On my way to the bathroom I screamed words to the effect for him/them to get out of my house and for Reeva to phone the police. It was pitch dark in the bedroom and I thought Reeva was in bed.”

NOTE: OP’s 1st set of screams to intruder and Reeva.”

3:00a.m- Burger woken by screams:

Quote:
Michell Burger, a lecturer at the University of Pretoria who lived 170m away on a neighbouring estate to Pistorius, said she was woken at 3am "from a woman's terrible screams".
She said the woman "yelled for help" and then she heard a man screaming for help three times, before shots were fired.
She said that there was a gap between the first shot and the next three, describing it as "bang (pause), bang bang bang."
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worl...-by-shots.html



“I noticed that the bathroom window was open. I realised that the intruder/s was/were in the toilet because the toilet door was closed and I did not see anyone in the bathroom. I heard movement inside the toilet. The toilet is inside the bathroom and has a separate door.
It filled me with horror and fear of an intruder or intruders being inside the toilet. I thought he or they must have entered throug the unprotected window. As I did not have my prosthetic legs on and felt extremely vulnerable, I knew I had to protect Reeva and myself. I believed that when the intruder/s came out of the toilet we would be in grave danger. I felt trapped as my bedroom door was locked and I have limited mobility on my stumps. “

TIME? (3:15???) “I fired shots at the toilet door and shouted to Reeva to phone the police. She did not respond and I moved backwards out of the bathroom, keeping my eyes on the bathroom entrance. Everything was pitch dark in the bedroom and I was still too scared to switch on a light. Reeva was not responding.”

NOTE: OP shouted to Reeva for 2nd time to call the police.

*3:00 - 3:15 a.m. -Stipp was woken up by 3 "shots" and got up and went to balcony to see where it was coming from

TIME? “When I reached the bed, I realised that Reeva was not in bed. That is when it dawned on me that it could have been Reeva who was in the toilet. I returned to the bathroom calling her name. I tried to open the toilet door but it was locked."

Note : Calling Reeva’s name (perhaps shouting?)

3:15:51 a.m.- Dr Stipp made a call at 3:15:51 am and spoke with Baba for 16 seconds. Stipp reported the shots and asked security to come and see where the shots were coming from. (time verified by phone records reviewed during Stipp's testimony)

TIME? \” I rushed back into the bedroom and opened the sliding door exiting onto the balcony and screamed for help. “

Note: OP screaming for help for 3rd time.

*3:15 - 3:16 a.m. - Stipp reports he heard a woman "screaming or yelling" 2 or 3 times

*Burger and Johnson awoke to the sounds of loud screams they identified as coming from a female

*3:15- 3:16 a.m. - Burger and Johnson report they heard yelling "help, help, help" yelled by a male and a female

TIME? “I put on my prosthetic legs, ran back to the bathroom and tried to kick the toilet door open. I think I must then have turned on the lights. “


3:16 a.m.- - Johnson calls security

Quote:
According to Roux, the call Johnson made at 3:16 am on Valentines Day last year to a security company was followed three minutes later by Pistorius's call to his complex's chairperson, Johan Stander.
http://www.sabc.co.za/news/f1/79d469...utiny-20140306


TIME/: “I went back into the bedroom and grabbed my cricket bat to bash open the toilet door. A panel or panels broke off and I found the key on the floor and unlocked and opened the door. Reeva was slumped over but alive.”


*3:17 a.m. – Stipp heard "2 or 3" additional "shots"

*3:17 a.m. Burger and Johnson heard "3 or 4" sounds they believe to be gunshots

NOTE: This would be the bat shots according to Roux.

*After 3:17 a.m. - Merwe heard "loud crying" that she initially thought was a woman, but her husband identified the voice as Oscar Pistorius

NOTE: This would be OP crying out because he shot his "baba".

TIME? “I battled to get her out of the toilet and pulled her into the bathroom.”

TIME? “I phoned Johan Stander ("Stander") who was involved in the administration of the estate and asked him to phone the ambulance. “


3:19 a.m. - Oscar calls Stander:

Quote:
According to Roux, the call Johnson made at 3:16 am on Valentines Day last year to a security company was followed three minutes later by Pistorius's call to his complex's chairperson, Johan Stander.
http://www.sabc.co.za/news/f1/79d469...utiny-20140306’

TIME: “I phoned Netcare and asked for help. “


*3:20 a.m. - Oscar calls Netcare and reports that they advised him to take Reeva to the hospital and not wait for the ambulance

TIME? “I went downstairs to open the front door.”



3:21:33 AM - Oscar calls security mobile phone, Baba answers; call lasts 9 seconds, only crying is heard (evidenced by phone records reviewed in court)

3:22:05 AM - Baba called Oscar who said "I'm Ok" or "Security, everything is fine" (there is a discrepancy between Baba's initial written report and his court testimony) - time of the phone call is evidenced by phone records reviewed in court


TIME? “I returned to the bathroom and picked Reeva up as I had been told not to wait for the paramedics, but to take her to hospital. I carried her downstairs in order to take her to the hospital. ”

TIME? “On my way down Stander arrived. A doctor who lives in the complex also arrived. Downstairs, I tried to render the assistance to Reeva that I could, but she died in my arms.”


3:24 -3:26 a.m. Baba arrives at Stander's house and by 3:26, Baba, Stipp and Stander are all present at Oscar's house (Baba claims he called Oscar at 3:24 outside Oscar's house, but the phone records reviewed in court indicate differently)

Quote:
Baba sent a buggy to Dr Stipp's house, and by then Dr Stipp was standing on the balcony. At that stage Dr Stipp pointed directly at Mr Pistorius's house. Pistorius's house was directly visible from Dr Stipp's house and Baba says the lights in Mr Pistorius's house were on so he immediately drove there.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worl...-happened.html

Quote:
Stipp arrived and said Pistorius had his fingers in Steenkamp's mouth in an attempt to revive her breathing but it soon became clear that she was "mortally" wounded.
http://www.sabc.co.za/news/f1/439cce...-body-20140306

3:27 a.m. - Stipp's phone dialed security but no connection is made (According to Roux, while reviewing the phone records in court with Stipp) [My theory - this was an accidental dial when Stander took Stipp's phone, maybe he accidentally hit "redial" before he called the ambulance]

*3:28 a.m. - Both Stander and Stipp are at Oscar's house; Stander calls ambulance from Stipp's phone

3:42 a.m.- Ambulance arrives; Col Van Resberg arrived shortly after

4:15 a.m.- Botha arrives

Other sources:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worl...-happened.html

http://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/new...-1226845099657

I'd really like Minor 4th's input on this. i think we owe it to any accused to consider if it could possibly happen the way OP stated in his affidavit.

 

[Really?]

Thank you wishiknewmore for the outline listed above.

What I gather from the outline is that :

OP referred to his "stumps" 3 times in his affidavit?

The first reference " I have mobility"

2nd....."I have limited mobility"

progressing further to state he is "extremely vulnerable"

3 times a mention of his dissability......."thou does protest toooooo much........." something like that



as for actual times people heard things....if not an actual phone call......who really knows what time it is.....we are talking3:17......3:16 seconds,...moot

I am suspicious of the REAL reason OP had his fingers shoved down Reeva's throat.........no...not to "revive her"

now moo me out.......He heard people approaching. Reeva was still breathing.....fear and panic strike OP to her possibly naming him..........so....silence her....sick, right?

 

[minor4th]

Anyone who thinks Oscar is innocent please ask yourself why he phoned Johan Stander before an ambulance and see if you can come up with a good answer, it's impossible.

His phone call to Stander at 3:19, he asked Stander to call ambulance. Probably had Stander on speed dial so this was the quickest way to get help. He called Netcare at 3:20.

I'm not saying Oscar is innocent though, but your suggestion does not indicate that he is guilty.

 

[Interested Bystander]

This is one of the reasons I wondered if there was a divide in the police force over how aggressively to pursue OP at the early stages. Although I believe I read that the murder charges had been reinstated earlier in February even before the incident - but the prosecution only learned of this fact during the bail hearing.

ETA: I just found this article:



http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/feb/21/oscar-pistorius-hilton-botha-attempted-murder

All I can say is yes, BUT. You allude to corruption within the police force and I agree. This case was dropped and then suddenly reinstated on 4th February (suspicious about the accuracy of that date - corruption interceding again?) but made public at the beginning of the bail hearing - Timing? The date for his trial was fixed for May 2013, then delayed until August 2013 and yet has still not taken place. I imagine it will fall off the list, if it has not already done so.

 

[Interested Bystander]

He didn't need to construct a detailed story that night. All he did was to say that he thought he'd heard an intruder. Not a difficult story to come up with in the circumstances.

I don't think he staged the crime scene.

I agree; he had several days before he had to come up with his final version and even then he changed it.

 

[minor4th]

All I can say is yes, BUT. You allude to corruption within the police force and I agree. This case was dropped and then suddenly reinstated on 4th February (suspicious about the accuracy of that date - corruption interceding again?) but made public at the beginning of the bail hearing - Timing? The date for his trial was fixed for May 2013, then delayed until August 2013 and yet has still not taken place. I imagine it will fall off the list, if it has not already done so.

I agree that the reinstatement on Feb 4 (if that is accurate) may have had something to do with internal politics or even some kind of corruption - although it apparently has nothing to do with the OP matter (unless the date is fabricated, which is also possible_

 

[minor4th]

I agree; he had several days before he had to come up with his final version and even then he changed it.

Well, he had one day. The bail hearing was on the 15th, but it remains that he did not have to come up with the story on the spot like I had originally thought.

 

[wishIknewmore]

Thank you wishiknewmore for the outline listed above.

What I gather from the outline is that :

OP referred to his "stumps" 3 times in his affidavit?

The first reference " I have mobility"

2nd....."I have limited mobility"

progressing further to state he is "extremely vulnerable"

3 times a mention of his dissability......."thou does protest toooooo much........." something like that



as for actual times people heard things....if not an actual phone call......who really knows what time it is.....we are talking3:17......3:16 seconds,...moot

I am suspicious of the REAL reason OP had his fingers shoved down Reeva's throat.........no...not to revive her"

now moo me out.......He heard people approaching. Reeva was still breathing.....fear and panic struck...so....silence her....

I personally think that he shot her in a fit of rage and then once he realized what he did, he wanted it all to "go away." It's possible it was to silence her but its also possible he was hoping she would be OK at that point. He realized what he did. We've all done something out anger (hopefully not this severe) only to be brought back into consciousness of "I so didn't meant that. Please let everything be OK."

 

[Interested Bystander]

Thank you wishiknewmore for the outline listed above.

What I gather from the outline is that :

OP referred to his "stumps" 3 times in his affidavit?

The first reference " I have mobility"

2nd....."I have limited mobility"

progressing further to state he is "extremely vulnerable"

3 times a mention of his dissability......."thou does protest toooooo much........." something like that



as for actual times people heard things....if not an actual phone call......who really knows what time it is.....we are talking3:17......3:16 seconds,...moot

I am suspicious of the REAL reason OP had his fingers shoved down Reeva's throat.........no...not to "revive her"

now moo me out.......He heard people approaching. Reeva was still breathing.....fear and panic strike OP to her possibly naming him..........so....silence her....sick, right?

He also said he RUSHED back to the bedroom - that was before he put his prosthetics on.

"That is when it dawned on me that it could have been Reeva who was in the toilet. I returned to the bathroom calling her name. I tried to open the toilet door but it was locked. I rushed back into the bedroom and opened the sliding door exiting onto the balcony and screamed for help. I put on my prosthetic legs, ran back to the bathroom and tried to kick the toilet door open. I think I must then have turned on the lights

 

[james83]

His phone call to Stander at 3:19, he asked Stander to call ambulance. Probably had Stander on speed dial so this was the quickest way to get help. He called Netcare at 3:20.

I'm not saying Oscar is innocent though, but your suggestion does not indicate that he is guilty.

Of course it doesn't but it's just another part of his story that doesn't add up.
That Speed dial thing doesn't ring true at all.
Anyone on this planet who accidentally shot there partner and found them
"Slumped over but alive" would call for medical assistance without delay and without hesitation.

 

[steveml]

He didn't need to construct a detailed story that night. All he did was to say that he thought he'd heard an intruder. Not a difficult story to come up with in the circumstances.

I don't think he staged the crime scene.

I'm struggling to believe that OP could have repeatedly shot the bathroom door without having the slightest inkling that RS could be in there. Plenty more evidence and witnesses to get through yet, though my initial suspicions are that this is a moment of madness during a row, with a fabricated 'intruder' story being created by OP.

That said, I still need to see something more credible to suggest a row, as it's hard to recreate a convincing scenario until we have a piece of evidence which clearly suggests this. Our current theories regarding ex-boyfriends or Valentine's presents are too speculative to carry any weight in court.

 

[Val1]

The other question that comes to mind for me, is if the holster was on the left side of the bed and the ammo was on the right side, just how can OP explain that he didn't notice that RS was not in the bed, no matter which side it was, before he went and shot up the toilet room? Unless he had actually just told her(referring to his statement as presented above that he had spoken to her just before going to get the fans) to go lock herself in there and call the police because he'd "heard a noise"....

*Just adding the link where OP states he'd spoken with RS shortly before the shooting. It's at 4.1 of the plea.*

http://www.scribd.com/doc/210458767/Oscar-Pistorius-plea

 

[delilah]

Got a problem with Burger's testimony.

She said she heard a woman screaming, then a man shouting for help three times, then gun shots.

If OP intended to kill RS, why is he shouting for help before he shoots her? This supports his account, which is that he shouted for help after firing the shots. So did Burger really hear the cricket bat, not the gun shots?

However, OP's story rests on there being no screams from RS at any point. So we're then back to the idea that Burger heard OP screaming, not RS.

None of this makes any sense to me.

 

[wishIknewmore]

Bribes?

Bribes from whom to whom? Explain a little more what you're thinking, if you don't mind.

It's been mentioned that there is known corruption in the SA government. You yourself mentioned it was all the way to the top in a previous post. I'm not familiar with SA govnt so this is pure speculation on my part.

Think about it...You have a known celebrity who has lots of money. He kills someone. Police arrive, many who are huge fans of the accused. He is a national hero. Some cops its wouldn't matter. Yet chances are in a corrupt force that one of them agree to foul the investigation a little bit here and there so that OP has a chance to get off? The lack of procedure in regards to securing a crime scene just mystifies me. I know little of court proceedings but enough to not handle the gun without gloves or walk through the scene touching stuff, moving things around, and without protective clothing. Either these officers are truly incompetent or somebody was bought off to taint the evidence. They KNOW this case will attract the media attentions so you would think people would do their best. Yes, theres always a few incompetent people in the mix but so many loose ends? Surely this can't be. In a corrupt govtnt, why wouldn't somebody be paid off (by a watch perhaps) to mishandle the crime scene and evidence?

 

[LemonMousse]

Hi everyone. I've been following your fascinating discussions for a while now, and I hope it's OK for me to join in.

I don't have anything of earth-shattering originality to share, most of the things that have occurred to me have been raised by you guys, but here's a few of my thoughts.

I don't believe OP. I was willing to give him the benefit of the doubt after the BH and before the trial, but the more evidence that comes to light, the more convinced I am of his guilt.

1) According to him he'd just spoken to Reeva when he heard the "intruder" so he knew she was awake. In order for him to do what he did....creep down a dark corridor clutching his gun....he would have to be in genuine and real fear for his life, so this is one of the scariest moments he has ever faced. His heart would have been pounding, his mouth dry, his hands shaking - and yet he says absolutely nothing to his wide awake girlfriend. No whispered contact to reassure himself he wasn't alone - no instruction to her to hide herself, no shushing to make sure she doesn't give the game away by saying loudly, "Oi, where are you going with that gun, Oscar?". He's not worried that she'll follow him. Nope. None of that. Defies all logic.

2) He screams at her twice to call the police - before and after the shooting. So he considers them the appropriate people to call at times of crisis. So does he call them when he realises the extent of the crisis? No. He calls the estate manager. This indicates that his panic is chiefly about the trouble he's in rather than help for Reeva. If this had been a total accident, I think he still would have worried about that, but it would have come second and he'd have been mostly concerned about getting help for her. I think this reveals his guilt more than anything else.

3) Why does not seeing Reeva in bed immediately lead to the conclusion that it was her he shot? He'd just blasted out the toilet door - did he expect her to be meekly sitting in bed? She'd have hidden or tried to run away, but Oscar doesn't check this out he just sees she's not in bed and it "dawns" on him. She WOULDN'T have been sitting in bed through all that - so why did he think she would be?

4) Fight or flight is a biological, instinctive reaction to danger - there's little thought involved and no one chooses which one to go with. It's a split second thing where your compelled into the action that is most likely to save your life. Flight is always the first instinct - people in true danger run if they possibly can, without stopping to consider the matter. Oscar's escape was a few feet to his left via the bedroom door. He and Reeva could have been through it in moments. OK, the door was locked but unless the key was inaccessible (and why would it be?) it would have been an extra moment to unlock it.

Oscar CHOSE to go into the bathroom. Only cornered people or angry people do this. Oscar was not cornered...so he chose his course of action. Panic did not propel him down that corridor, anger did.

Sorry - for a first post this is going on a bit. Nearly there.......!

Lastly - the bat sounds. Hmmmmm. I think this is a big, big red herring because I am not convinced that Dr Stipp was close enough to hear a bat smack a door. This is the kind of sound that only people in the same house or possibly very near neighbours might hear, but I don't think anyone at a distance would - and if they did, it would be very faint.

Gun shots are loud because of the amount of energy they produce, which is also what makes them so deadly. OP wielding a cricket bat could not produce even a fraction of the energy a gun could, so the sounds would not be anything like equal in sound. I've seen that YT video, btw, and I would really like to know what a physicist thinks about that. But I, personally, don't buy it.

So, I'm wondering if all the bangs that people heard were actually gunshots and, while the door bashing took place, no one heard that.

Pure supposition on my part, but maybe there were more shots than just the four through the door. Maybe OP was standing by the open bathroom window, arguing with Reeva through the door. Maybe he tells her to come out or he'll shoot the lock off (after a few bashes with the bat), and shoots a couple through the window to show he's serious. Her screams intensify, but she doesn't come out. So he tells her to get away from the door because he's going to shoot off the lock, and does. But she hadn't moved so got hit.

I don't think he planned to kill her, but I am certain he knew she was behind the door. His version makes absolutely no sense,and as Judge Judy often says, if something doesn't make sense, it's usually not true!

Sorry.....I shall shut up now. Thanks for reading my rambles (if you have!)

 

[Interested Bystander]

Well, he had one day. The bail hearing was on the 15th, but it remains that he did not have to come up with the story on the spot like I had originally thought.

Sorry, the bail hearing was on 19th not 15th February 2013; he had 5 days to get it together, though given it had to be typed up, maybe he produced it late on 18th. He did actually sign it on 19th February at 7.30 am.