Sounds

[Rumpole]

if it seems clear that the gun shots were around 3.08 to 3.14... how does that tie in with Oscar ringing Johan Standar at 3.20am??

that's a hell of a long time to faff around , don't you think?? he had time for a smoke and an aspirin . hells bells, he would have had time to mop the floor.

or his call to netcare?? 3.21am? ( that call hasn't been testified to as yet... no one can find the record of it. ) . Roux says he used another phone.

no one has testified they heard the cricket bat at all. (gentle reminder)

He had a lot of stuff to be getting on with after the shots....

Screaming (like a woman), shouting, going back to bedroom, putting his legs on, going back to bathroom, kicking toilet door, maybe another trip to bedroom to get bat?, bashing door... more shouting and screaming, dragging body from toilet and trying first aid or whatever, then maybe phoning, carrying body down stairs.

People have testified to two sets of noises. Burger <modsnip>testified to the cricket bat noises at 3:17 as did Stipp.

 

[Trooper]

He had a lot of stuff to be getting on with after the shots....

Screaming (like a woman), shouting, going back to bedroom, putting his legs on, going back to bathroom, kicking toilet door, maybe another trip to bedroom to get bat?, bashing door... more shouting and screaming, dragging body from toilet and trying first aid or whatever, then maybe phoning, carrying body down stairs.

People have testified to two sets of noises. Burger (with cheese) testified to the cricket bat noises at 3:17 as did Stipp.

BBM.. this part.----> People have testified to two sets of noises is correct... they did hear two SORTS of noises.. not two SETS of noises.. they heard screaming, and gunshots..

this part ---> Burger <modsnip> testified to the cricket bat noises at 3:17 as did Stipp is incorrect... no one has testified to hearing cricket bat noises.. attempts were made to get these witnesses to consider the possibility but it came to naught.. they didn't, they said firmly they didn't, and that's it..

 

[Trooper]

I'd very much doubt if the sound of even a sixer by Pietersen <modsnip> or Warner or Chris Gayle would travel that far.. but gunshot would. And there would be no mistaking one sound for the other.

 

[Rumpole]

BBM.. this part.----> People have testified to two sets of noises is correct... they did hear two SORTS of noises.. not two SETS of noises.. they heard screaming, and gunshots..

this part ---> Burger <modsnip> testified to the cricket bat noises at 3:17 as did Stipp is incorrect... no one has testified to hearing cricket bat noises.. attempts were made to get these witnesses to consider the possibility but it came to naught.. they didn't, they said firmly they didn't, and that's it..

My bad. :doh:

Instead of "two sets of noises" I should have typed "two sets of "loud bangs" so that it was clear to everyone reading.
There were many types of noises if you want to be pedantic.
BOTH sets of "bangs" sounded exactly like like gunshots to a man with firearms experience (Stipp). There were only 4 shots fired and so one set of "bangs" is almost certainly cricket bat strikes on toilet door (which sound like gunshots when heard some distance away after reverberating inside the bathroom, the house, and out across some distance to Stipp (and the burgers) ... unless some third possibility is suggested for a set of bangs that sound exactly like gunshots? We KNOW there were bat strikes on door... to go looking for a third explanation for bangs that sound like gunshots would suggest an an attempt to deny reality. We all have to modify our opinions to suit facts as they come to light. That is the normal mental process to reconcile and eliminate Cognitive Dissonance. To cling to opinions and deny facts is delusion.

 

[Trooper]

My bad. :doh:

Instead of "two sets of noises" I should have typed "two sets of "loud bangs" so that it was clear to everyone reading.
There were many types of noises if you want to be pedantic.
BOTH sets of "bangs" sounded exactly like like gunshots to a man with firearms experience (Stipp). There were only 4 shots fired and so one set of "bangs" is almost certainly cricket bat strikes on toilet door (which sound like gunshots when heard some distance away after reverberating inside the bathroom, the house, and out across some distance to Stipp (and the burgers) ... unless some third possibility is suggested for a set of bangs that sound exactly like gunshots? We KNOW there were bat strikes on door... to go looking for a third explanation for bangs that sound like gunshots would suggest an an attempt to deny reality. We all have to modify our opinions to suit facts as they come to light. To cling to opinions and deny facts is delusion.

oh absolutely.. this clinging to opinions and denying facts stuff is so silly..

BOTH sets of "bangs" sounded exactly like like gunshots to a man with firearms experience (Stipp). Stipp firmly rejected this hypothesis..

both sets of bangs.. but they are not similar sets of bangs.. one is gunshot.. 4 sounds..

the other set is cricket bat.. 2 sounds..

therefore.. 6 sounds in all. I know I have that addition correct, I asked my dog to check it..

to follow the theory of everyone mistaking the sounds , one for the other.. cricket bat for gunshot..

2 cricket bat bangs.. ok. then what?? they only heard cricket bat sounds and no gunshot?? hardly feasible..

they hear 2 cricket bat sounds, and 2 gunshot sounds, and they mistake these 2 different sounds for the one sound, cricket bat.= 4 sounds.. unlikely.

but say they do.. what happened to the remaining 2 gunshots?? no one hears them?? there was a much longer pause between the gunshots and the cricket bat sounds.. than between the firing of the gun shots. .. as you yourself state, he ran hither and yon, bunging on the legs, bathroom to bedroom.. first aid, etc..

what stipp and burger and Johnson heard was screaming, arguing, gunshot.....bang ( hip shot ) scream... pause ( bangbangbang) head shot, misfire, armshot )

then.. he gallops back with the cricket bat.. 2 bangs.. no one hears this, they are on the phone, they are frantically dialing security. ( oddly, the only one who rang the police that night was Stipp) .. they don't hear the cricket bat sounds, because that sound is a dull thunk, wood on wood, and maybe someone next door, or two houses would hear those dull thunks.. .. no further..

the sound of gunfire in an enclosed space will always trump the sound of a cricket bat in the same environment.. wielded by the same person. or even a mob of world class batsmen hitting a cricket bat on a door at the same time. . it just doesn't have that reverberating compressed power that a gun and bullets have..

 

[Trooper]

Occams Razor is truly needed with this theory of mistaking cricket bat sounds for gunshot..

*calling Occam!!. come to the reception desk , please * ..

 

[katydid23]

It seems that Christo Menelaou confirms noises earlier (3:08).
http://drum.co.za/celebs/hes-heartbroken/

It remains to be seen if that is introduced as testimony (evidence)

It seems clear to me that the gun shots were at around 3:08 to 3:14 and that the noises Burger(s) heard at 3:17 were the same "second set" of noises that Stipp heard... cricket bat on door.


The State has conceded that cricket bat came AFTER shots. They have to because all the evidence shows that.
With clear evidence of two sets of noises, the second set must be the cricket bat noises.

But even given ALL of the above, it does not mean that he didn't know it was Reeva that he was shooting at. All of this may be true, and he still can be GUILTY of murder.

 

[Rumpole]

It's easy to get confused.

The burgers heard anywhere from 2 to 5 bangs if you follow the "evolution" of their testimony. At 3:17. This was the second set of bangs as heard by Stipp and so logically it was the cricket bat noises that came after the gunshots.

 

[Zinn]

oh absolutely.. this clinging to opinions and denying facts stuff is so silly..

BOTH sets of "bangs" sounded exactly like like gunshots to a man with firearms experience (Stipp). Stipp firmly rejected this hypothesis..

both sets of bangs.. but they are not similar sets of bangs.. one is gunshot.. 4 sounds..

the other set is cricket bat.. 2 sounds..

therefore.. 6 sounds in all. I know I have that addition correct, I asked my dog to check it..

to follow the theory of everyone mistaking the sounds , one for the other.. cricket bat for gunshot..

2 cricket bat bangs.. ok. then what?? they only heard cricket bat sounds and no gunshot?? hardly feasible..

they hear 2 cricket bat sounds, and 2 gunshot sounds, and they mistake these 2 different sounds for the one sound, cricket bat.= 4 sounds.. unlikely.

but say they do.. what happened to the remaining 2 gunshots?? no one hears them?? there was a much longer pause between the gunshots and the cricket bat sounds.. than between the firing of the gun shots. .. as you yourself state, he ran hither and yon, bunging on the legs, bathroom to bedroom.. first aid, etc..

what stipp and burger and Johnson heard was screaming, arguing, gunshot.....bang ( hip shot ) scream... pause ( bangbangbang) head shot, misfire, armshot )

then.. he gallops back with the cricket bat.. 2 bangs.. no one hears this, they are on the phone, they are frantically dialing security. ( oddly, the only one who rang the police that night was Stipp) .. they don't hear the cricket bat sounds, because that sound is a dull thunk, wood on wood, and maybe someone next door, or two houses would hear those dull thunks.. .. no further..

the sound of gunfire in an enclosed space will always trump the sound of a cricket bat in the same environment.. wielded by the same person. or even a mob of world class batsmen hitting a cricket bat on a door at the same time. . it just doesn't have that reverberating compressed power that a gun and bullets have..

BBM.

I listened to Stipp's testimony very carefully because I found it fascinating.

I recall Stipp said he first attempted to call Silverwoods security (no answer) and then something he referred to as "10111" (no ring, just a strange tone), before finally getting through to Silverwoods security on the second attempt. Perhaps 10111 is a police number, I don't know, but he didn't get through. He did speak to Baba who (according to Baba's testimony) later called police as directed by Stander.

According to Stipp, a while after leaving OP's house, at 4:17am, he received a call from Stander informing him to expect a call from OP's lawyer. Stipp said he assumed Stander would've directed police to him for a statement, but he was surprised to find he was not contacted by police that day at all. The following day (2/15?), Stipp went to the security manager to ask for the number of whoever was managing the police investigation so he could inform them he'd been on the scene and give them a statement. Police then went to Stipp's office to take a statement.

 

[Rumpole]

The notion that the volley of 4 shots was "bang.... Bang,bang,bang" comes from Burgers testimony only, and that has evolved from initially hearing less than 4 shots?
Given that in all likelihood she is describing the timing of cricket bat blows, we don't actually have any evidence about the timing and spacing of the shots other than "3 bangs" in succession from Stipp.. no mention of pauses.

 

[kittychi]

It's not an assumption - it is the only logical inference that can be drawn from the evidence.

Oscar was screaming after the gunshots, according to his bail affidavit and his plea statement. Unless it is somehow proven conclusively that it wasn't Oscar screaming then his version is all we have. What would have been good evidence for the State is if they had someone who was familiar with Reeva's voice and had heard her scream and could definitively testify that it was Reeva screaming after the first shots that Stipp heard around 3:10 a.m. - but that would seem to be an impossibility since Reeva would have been completely incapacitated after the shots.

To my knowledge there is no way to prove who was screaming or if there even was screaming at all. Is a witness statement proof? Of course if someone was familiar with Reeva's voice they could make that statement, but it still wouldn't be "proven."

The judge will have to take the witness statements and her perception of their credibility in totality.

I would think that statements referring to a woman's "blood curdling" screams from more than one person would be enough to go on, but then I'm not the judge!

 

[steveml]

Nice post, thanks! Nel did mention that the bat hitting the door could have been to scare Reeva before OP escalated things and went for his gun. Since there are only 2-3 rather minor marks on the door caused by the bat strikes I agree with Nel. The damage to the prosthesis is likely from kicking the tub plate after the shooting IMO. Finally, the decibel levels of firing a handgun are so high that IMO OP would have entered the bathroom, had whatever exchange with Reeva, targeted her by the sound if her voice and fired the first round aiming for a shot to the center mass but he was low and hit her hip. He would have been, for a short moment, not able to hear so he moved closer to the door to listen and with her now screaming in pain he targeted her voice and fired the remaining three rounds in quick succession. IMO during that 1-1.5 seconds of firing he heard nothing, he was deafened by the sounds of his own gunshots and probably had trouble hearing for sometime after that as well.

Just my opinions folks.

I feel that Roux won't be pursuing the cricket bat noise much further. It was a real long stretch to suggest that gunshots and a cricket bat on wood could sound similar. I've had the benefit of hearing gunfire and demolishing a wardrobe with a lump-hammer (not my usual past-time I must add), and the reverberation from a gunshot would travel much further. It's also a totally different sound. I don't believe anybody would confuse the two if both were heard without a short time frame.

 

[weeeva]

I don't know - there was some screaming like a woman and yelling for help in there, opening blinds and sliding doors, trying to kick down door, retrieving cricket bat and whatnot - we'll have to see what Oscar says in his testimony. Based on his court behavior, I could also imagine him running around in a state of frenzy and panic and doing nothing constructive for some period of time before he collected himself enough to break into the toilet.

Yes I can imagine someone, anyone in that situation running around in a frenzy. I can also imagine a man screaming and wailing in a high pitched tone. The description weeping and wailing springs to mind. It is not just women who react like this when faced with such horrific circumstances.
However I don't feel as sorry for OP as I did earlier, I have seen him in a different light, but I am still giving him the benefit of the doubt up to this point. Still trying to keep an open mind.

 

[james83]

Yes I can imagine someone, anyone in that situation running around in a frenzy. I can also imagine a man screaming and wailing in a high pitched tone. The description weeping and wailing springs to mind. It is not just women who react like this when faced with such horrific circumstances.
However I don't feel as sorry for OP as I did earlier, I have seen him in a different light, but I am still giving him the benefit of the doubt up to this point. Still trying to keep an open mind.

I disagree about the running around in a frenzy, that is not a normal reaction at all, you would be doing anything to get that door open, he didn't know for sure if Reeva was in the toilet at that stage, she could have been hiding or gone downstairs, the only thing he should have logically been shouting before he knows for sure it was her in there was her name over and over, put yourself in the position he claims he was in, shot an intruder through a door then can't account for your partner, i guarantee anyone in the scenario would have been yelling there partner's name over and over whilst getting the door open.

 

[LemonMousse]

I'm jumping the gun a bit here, I know, because we haven't heard the defence's case properly yet, but I think Roux has given us some clues.

Re: screaming. OP's defence seems to be that he didn't hear Reeva scream because she didn't. This implies that he's told Roux that there were no screams to hear.

But, if his story is true, I think it's at least possible that the gunshot sounds were so deafening he couldn't hear anything over the top of them - put that together with his heightened sense of panic and fear which could distort his ability to hear etc, then it's not inconceivable that he didn't hear her scream.

But Roux (so far) hasn't suggested this as a possibility, even though it's the most likely explanation if OP is truly innocent - far more likely than that she got shot through the hip and raised not a squeak. As Saayman said, screams in these situations are an automatic reflex, not a choice. It's certainly reasonable to assume that a scream is likely, IMO.

So, we have evidence from the pathologist that a scream was likely, plus evidence from three separate people that they heard screaming that they have no doubt was female. Occam's Razar, as Trooper mentioned earlier, indicates that the most probable explanation is that Reeva screamed.

I also think that the bat sounds are a red herring. We seem to be assuming that any sounds that were heard that don't fit with the precise timings of the shots MUST have been bat sounds. Why? The fact that the bat was used twice is only relevant if it can be demonstrated that this sound was loud enough to be heard at Dr Stipp's house - and I'm not convinced by that.

Dr Stipp heard two sets of bangs, both of which sounded like gunfire to him. Maybe they were both gunfire. How do we know that the only shots fired were the ones that went through the door? I can imagine an enraged person firing a couple out of an open window (he has form for this, right?)

Dr Stipp's testimony is only problematic is you assume that some of the sounds he heard were from the bat. I think this is a mistaken assumption because if OP can smack a door so hard it's as loud as a gunshot, he'd have to be Superman. No human can produce the same amount of energy as a gun.

Just my opinion.

 

[nastasya]

I'm not sure the question of lying is correct here. You have to look at every piece of evidence and test it. The suggestion of the two corresponding voices was rather vaguely put across in the witness testimony. Nobody is suggesting that a witness is lying, however it can be suggested that what somebody thought they heard a long time ago can be influenced once you become aware of more information prior to the case.

Four witnesses testified hearing a combination of arguing between a man and a woman, a woman screaming, two distinct voices, then gunshots, followed by silence.

All witnesses were adamant that it was a woman's voice. All were awakened in the middle of the night. There was nothing vague about their testimony.

Remember, if Reeva spoke or screamed prior to the shots, OP is lying about everything.

 

[nastasya]

I feel that Roux won't be pursuing the cricket bat noise much further. It was a real long stretch to suggest that gunshots and a cricket bat on wood could sound similar. I've had the benefit of hearing gunfire and demolishing a wardrobe with a lump-hammer (not my usual past-time I must add), and the reverberation from a gunshot would travel much further. It's also a totally different sound. I don't believe anybody would confuse the two if both were heard without a short time frame.

This is exactly why OP's story is NOT reasonable.

The cricket bat hitting the door MUST be what the witnesses heard.

Witnesses all heard screaming then gunshots. OP's story is that he screamed BECAUSE he realized he killed Reeva. He would have had no reason to scream before gunshots.

Therefore, for OP's defense to win he must convince the judge that the witnesses heard the cricket bat.

 

[LemonMousse]

Roux did some kind of scream test in the middle of the night to see if neighbour's could hear it, right? (They did).

Why didn't he do a cricket bat test to see a) if that could be heard at the Stipp house and b) if it could reasonably be mistaken for gunfire? This would be mega evidence if he could demonstrate this.

My guess is that he did - but the answer was no to both questions. So it was quietly shelved.

No matter how much I think about this, I fail to see how OP could have whacked the door with such power he broke the sound barrier....which he would have to do if his smacks managed to be as loud as gunfire.

 

[soozieqtips]

If Roux is so adamant that the shots people heard were from the cricket bat, then why hasn't he replicated this scenario? If it can be proved without a shadow of a doubt that the sound couldn't possibly have travelled to Dr Stipp or to any of the other witnesses, then that's his theory down the toilet. He's gone on about the bat so much I don't see why he just doesn't prove, once and for all, just how far the sound could have travelled. Of course, I don't mean replicate the scenario like the youtube video of a guy demonstrating in the open air in the middle of the day!! But if Roux is trying to discredit all the witnesses hearing ability, then why not put an end to all the speculation and at least try to recreate the scene that night?

 

[soozieqtips]

Roux did some kind of scream test in the middle of the night to see if neighbour's could hear it, right? (They did).

Why didn't he do a cricket bat test to see a) if that could be heard at the Stipp house and b) if it could reasonably be mistaken for gunfire? This would be mega evidence if he could demonstrate this.

My guess is that he did - but the answer was no to both questions. So it was quietly shelved.

No matter how much I think about this, I fail to see how OP could have whacked the door with such power he broke the sound barrier....which he would have to do if his smacks managed to be as loud as gunfire.

Oops, I just posted something similar without refreshing the page. I wonder if Nel thought to do a test on how far the bat sound could have travelled?