Sounds

[steveml]

This is exactly why OP's story is NOT reasonable.

The cricket bat hitting the door MUST be what the witnesses heard.

Witnesses all heard screaming then gunshots. OP's story is that he screamed BECAUSE he realized he killed Reeva. He would have had no reason to scream before gunshots.

Therefore, for OP's defense to win he must convince the judge that the witnesses heard the cricket bat.

It could be as simple as that, but unlikely. Nel certainly won't have all his eggs in the ear-witness basket. He'll be aware that it could take a lot more than that to stop Roux implying reasonable doubt, and both of them have been in the game a long time.

 

[steveml]

If Roux is so adamant that the shots people heard were from the cricket bat, then why hasn't he replicated this scenario? If it can be proved without a shadow of a doubt that the sound couldn't possibly have travelled to Dr Stipp or to any of the other witnesses, then that's his theory down the toilet. He's gone on about the bat so much I don't see why he just doesn't prove, once and for all, just how far the sound could have travelled. Of course, I don't mean replicate the scenario like the youtube video of a guy demonstrating in the open air in the middle of the day!! But if Roux is trying to discredit all the witnesses hearing ability, then why not put an end to all the speculation and at least try to recreate the scene that night?

Good point. And it's probably for exactly the same reason that he's unlikely to produce a recording to prove OP can scream like a girl.

 

[Rumpole]

Serious questions for those who are convinced (as is the State) that the gun shots were at 3:17

1. What caused the 3 loud bangs at around 3:10 that Stipp was convinced were gun shots?

2: If OP shot at 3:17+, while he was on his stumps, how did he manage to do all that he had to do in a minute or so, in time to be making phone calls at 3:19?

He had to have gone back and forth from bathroom to bedroom at least once, put on his legs, kicked, bashed and wrenched open toilet door, dragged Reeva's body to bathroom and attempt to assist there, shouted and screamed (from balcony)

3. What happened to the cricket bat and kicking and door wrenching noises? Several people were very alert to the situation after 3:17. They reported no more banging noises.


I saw "Occam's Razor" invoked a few posts back........

It would seem to me that good old Occam would say the noises at 3:10 were gunshots, and the noises at 3:17 were cricket bat.

 

[LemonMousse]

Serious questions for those who are convinced (as is the State) that the gun shots were at 3:17

1. What caused the 3 loud bangs at around 3:10 that Stipp was convinced were gun shots?

2: If OP shot at 3:17+, while he was on his stumps, how did he manage to do all that he had to do in a minute or so, in time to be making phone calls at 3:19?

He had to have gone back and forth from bathroom to bedroom at least once, put on his legs, kicked, bashed and wrenched open toilet door, dragged Reeva's body to bathroom and attempt to assist there, shouted and screamed (from balcony)

3. What happened to the cricket bat and kicking and door wrenching noises? Several people were very alert to the situation after 3:17. They reported no more banging noises.


I saw "Occam's Razor" invoked a few posts back........

It would seem to me that good old Occam would say the noises at 3:10 were gunshots, and the noises at 3:17 were cricket bat.

No, I don't think Occam would say that, to be honest. Where exactly is the evidence that a bat against a door is loud enough to be heard at the Stipp house? This is an assumption, and it seems to me a rather tenuous one that breaks the laws of physics. Occam would not approve of factoring in an unproven hypothesis.

1) Maybe gunshots? We know he correctly identified one set - and we don't know that there weren't others fired. And you know, it's perfectly fine to say "I don't know" when something is unexplained. Shoveling in an explanation so that we have something is illogical. An explanation is only an explanation when evidence is presented that it's likely to be true.

But bottom line....I've no idea. I wasn't there.

2) We haven't heard the evidence of phone call times yet, have we?

3) Maybe they weren't loud enough for anyone to hear.

 

[Rumpole]

Occams Razor = keep it simple.

TWO events that would have caused banging noises. (gun and bat)

TWO sets of bang noises heard.

Bat came after shots.

Occam's Razor = Shots at 3:10 and then cricket bat at 3:17.

A hypothesis with bat too quiet to be heard, and a THIRD set of noises of unknown origin happening around the same time, would be first slice with Occam's razor.

The State concedes that OP's gun fired just 4 shots... so presumably the hypothetical other shots were from a different gun, shooter, location nearby? I think Occam would slice through that.

 

[Val1]

Does anyone remember which gun it was that had the silencer on it?

The reason I ask is if it wasn't the airgun and it can be proven that it had been fired then perhaps those were the earlier sounds that woke everyone up.

Also, perhaps was why RS may have taken refuge in the toilet room with two cell phones threatening to call her mom or whoever, then the door being hit with the bat(the bat noises according to OP's team came after OP claimed to have brought in the fans, closed the door, curtains etc., imo to prevent anyone from hearing their argument after previous complaints at his address) and then the final 4 gun shots to shut her up and stop her from calling/texting anyone, followed by utter silence when he realized just what he'd done?

 

[LemonMousse]

Occams Razor = keep it simple.

TWO events that would have caused banging noises. (gun and bat)

TWO sets of bang noises heard.

Bat came after shots.

Occam's Razor = Shots at 3:10 and then cricket bat at 3:17.

A hypothesis with bat too quiet to be heard, and a THIRD set of noises of unknown origin happening around the same time, would be first slice with Occam's razor.

The State concedes that OP's gun fired just 4 shots... so presumably the hypothetical other shots were from a different gun, shooter, location nearby? I think Occam would slice through that.

Occam's Razar is more than just keep it simple - it also requires the least possible number of assumptions. Assumptions are tenuous because they are not supported by evidence.

It doesn't matter what banging actually went on....what matters is whether it could be heard at the Stipp's house. If it couldn't then the bat bang theory dies a death. We don't know. And it is NOT a reasonable assumption to make given that human beings smacking two bits of wood together cannot possibly be as loud as a gunshot!

And , sorry, but Occam would point out to you very quickly that if we don't know then we don't know. You cannot simply assert something as fact without evidence.

When it can be demonstrated that OP is so powerful he can smack a door hard enough that it produces sound equivalent to a gunshot (which breaks the sound barrier and could potentially damage hearing permanently) then I will accept that it could have been bat sounds.

Violating the laws of physics to make a theory fit hardly complies with Occam's Razar.

It sounded like gunshots to the ears of a man who correctly identified them again a few minutes later. They could have been gunshots. Or a car backfiring. Or neighbours putting up shelves at 3am. None of these are very likely, but a lot more likely than OP turning into Superman.

I think we have to wait to see if Roux has done some kind of test and convinces us that they really could have been bat sounds. At the moment I think he's set up a false dichotomy.

(I have always spelled it Razar, by the way. I think both are correct...just didn't want it to look like I can't spell).

 

[Rumpole]

1. We KNOW for certain of two events that would produce loud bangs. Bat and Gun.

Other "possible" sources such as car back fire, neighbors doing DYI at 3:00AM, a second gun volley, or some "unspecified,unknown and unknowable other" are pure speculation. (Adding complication to a SIMPLE situation) (An Occam smacking offense)

2. We KNOW for a fact that Stipp heard TWO sets of bangs (3:10 and 3:17)

3. We KNOW the shots came before the cricket bat


Applying Occams Razor - Most likely solution:

The shots were at 3:10 they were followed by the bat on door at 3:17.



NOTE:
No Laws of Physics were even tickled, let alone broken, in reaching this logical and almost certainly true conclusion.

Imagining some "never to be known" 3rd set of bangs, as well as coincidentally ALL alert witnesses failing to hear the cricket bat bangs,does not make sense, and as Judge Judy would say "If it doesn't make sense, it's not true"

 

[LemonMousse]

Occam's Razar does not mean what you think it does, I'm afraid. It does not allow you to assume something simply because doing so will give you the simplest possible explanation.

Yes, I know OP produced two sets of bangs. This is not the issue. The issue is whether they were loud enough to reach the ears of Dr Stipp some distance away.

You are assuming they must of been because, hey, two sets of bangs happened and Dr Stipp heard two.

That is illogical and without justification given that it seems extremely unlikely due to those pesky laws of physics that a human being can produce sounds of the same intensity & power as a gun can.

If that's unlikely - and I think it is - then it becomes unlikely that that's what Dr Stipp heard.

You seem wiling to ignore known physics simply because you get a simple explanation that way. I can assure you that absolutely no application of Occam's Razar fits with that - it's completely the opposite of the what the principle stands for.

Please don't feel compelled to repeat yourself. I am disagreeing with you, and I've explained why. It's not that I'm too thick to understand what you're saying, you know.

 

[Rumpole]

There are no laws of physics broken?

A cricket bat on door clearly makes a loud bang.

The whole point of the "Occams Razor" approach, is to cut away speculation and overworking of the facts to fit a desired conclusion. I use the term "Occams Razor" because it was evoked by a previous poster.
I could just have said ithe simplest explanation for the two sets of bangs heard by Stipp are the two sets of bangs KNOWN to have been produced by OP. Unless there is evidence of other bangs that stands. The times are known for the two sets that Stipp heard and so that can be applied to the times of the bangs that OP made.

We KNOW the sequence of the two sets of bangs. Gunshots came before bat bangs.

 

[Val1]

There are no laws of physics broken?

A cricket bat on door clearly makes a loud bang.

The whole point of the "Occams Razor" approach, is to cut away speculation and overworking of the facts to fit a desired conclusion. I use the term "Occams Razor" because it was evoked by a previous poster.
I could just have said ithe simplest explanation for the two sets of bangs heard by Stipp are the two sets of bangs KNOWN to have been produced by OP. Unless there is evidence of other bangs that stands. The times are known for the two sets that Stipp heard and so that can be applied to the times of the bangs that OP made.

We KNOW the sequence of the two sets of bangs. Gunshots came before bat bangs.

The problem with your argument in this context is simply that you're basing your whole premise on only OP's version of events. Iow's if he had omitted to mention that he had also fired off his airgun or was slamming doors or breaking windows you seem to think they could not apply, even if there is evidence that they did.

 

[Rumpole]

The problem with your argument in this context is simply that you're basing your whole premise on only OP's version of events. Iow's if he had omitted to mention that he had also fired off his airgun or was slamming doors or breaking windows you seem to think they could not apply, even if there is evidence that they did.

And that is just the sort of thing that Occam's Razor suggests you cut away to get to an explanation based on what we KNOW and not "any old thing" people can dream up.
I am NOT considering OP's version at all for this bit of discussion?
I am going by what the State witnesses and Nel have presented. I did not know any of this stuff before State witnesses testified. That is where I am getting it from.

The States own witnesses have testified to just 4 shots fired. There is Zero evidence of breaking windows, slamming doors, firing air guns etc... not even unsubstantiated speculation by the State that any of that happened.
The States own expert is adamant that the shots came first and cricket bat strikes were after that. The States own witness heard TWO sets of loud bangs at 3:10 and 3:17.
If you put together what the State witnesses say. OP fired 4 shots at 3:10 and bashed the door 3+ times with a cricket bat at 3:17.

 

[Val1]

And that is just the sort of thing that Occam's Razor suggests you cut away to get to an explanation based on what we KNOW and not "any old thing" people can dream up.
I am NOT considering OP's version at all for this bit of discussion?
I am going by what the State witnesses and Nel have presented. I did not know any of this stuff before State witnesses testified. That is where I am getting it from.

The States own witnesses have testified to just 4 shots fired. There is Zero evidence of breaking windows, slamming doors, firing air guns etc... not even unsubstantiated speculation by the State that any of that happened.
The States own expert is adamant that the shots came first and cricket bat strikes were after that. The States own witness heard TWO sets of loud bangs at 3:10 and 3:17.
If you put together what the State witnesses say. OP fired 4 shots at 3:10 and bashed the door 3+ times with a cricket bat at 3:17.

I disagree, imo you have again and again mis-stated witness' testimony in favour of OP's version of events and have chosen to disregard the evidence that has been admitted in the form of crime scene photographs showing other evidence of violence in OP's home. Broken window, bullet hole or air gun pellet hole through his bedroom door, broken corner of bedroom door where the floor lock is, blood splatter where there has as yet been no explanation as to who it belonged to or why it was there. No explanation as yet has been given for all of these as yet, but the photographic evidence of them has been entered as evidence.

 

[Rumpole]

Other than showing photos the State has NOT mentiooned many of the things that YOU have picked up on.

You ASSUME hole in bedroom door is a bullet hole?... yet all we know is a hole... it seems not even inspected by the ballistics guy... not mentioned in his testimony.
You ASSUME spots near bed and on duvet were blood? No evidence presented to say that. Again expert on blood spatter did not inspect or did not include.
It is not ME ignoring evidence.. the State are not presenting those things as evidence related to the shooting.

 

[Harmony 2]

Prosecutors at Oscar Pistorius' murder trial have presented a "golden thread" of evidence suggesting Reeva Steenkamp screamed before she died, leaving the double-amputee athlete with "serious questions" to answer and his defense likely hinging on his own testimony, a legal expert in South Africa said.

http://news.msn.com/world/expert-screaming-gives-pistorius-major-problem

 

[TorisMom003]

The notion that the volley of 4 shots was "bang.... Bang,bang,bang" comes from Burgers testimony only, and that has evolved from initially hearing less than 4 shots?
Given that in all likelihood she is describing the timing of cricket bat blows, we don't actually have any evidence about the timing and spacing of the shots other than "3 bangs" in succession from Stipp.. no mention of pauses.

This is incorrect since we have the ballistics expert that said that a pause had to have come after the first shot. The first shot was to Reeva's hip. The other two shots that hit her had to have come after she was done from the first hip shot. This testimony backs up Burger's testimony as to what she heard, bang...........bangbangbang.

 

[beach]

:bump:

 

[sleuth-d-]

no one.. not one person, has testified or made a statement or alluded or hinted or plain downright stated they heard a cricket bat. .

Logically, the only person who heard a cricket bat was Oscar. logically, we can assume he heard it, because he was swinging it at the door. Logically, we can assume he did this from the evidence of the bat marks on the door, and the door gouges on the bat. 2 marks = 2 bat whacks.

logically. we can take it on board that Oscar heard 2 cricket bat sounds.

but no one else heard them. not surprising at all.

agreed.
even op [who knows that for his version to match all the witness reports needs to have hit the door 4 times with the cricket bat] has not - to my knowledge - said he hit the door 4 times with said cricket bat.
he has not said he swung thus... bat>>short pause>>bat;bat;bat.

 

[sleuth-d-]

Does anyone remember which gun it was that had the silencer on it?

The reason I ask is if it wasn't the airgun and it can be proven that it had been fired then perhaps those were the earlier sounds that woke everyone up.

Also, perhaps was why RS may have taken refuge in the toilet room with two cell phones threatening to call her mom or whoever, then the door being hit with the bat(the bat noises according to OP's team came after OP claimed to have brought in the fans, closed the door, curtains etc., imo to prevent anyone from hearing their argument after previous complaints at his address) and then the final 4 gun shots to shut her up and stop her from calling/texting anyone, followed by utter silence when he realized just what he'd done?

i find it hard to believe that rs was in the toilet screaming. and crying out for help... but also had her phone and didn't call anyone. the period between ms burger waking [just after 3, to screams] and the gunshots [3:17] is too long.

 

[asanque]

Serious questions for those who are convinced (as is the State) that the gun shots were at 3:17

1. What caused the 3 loud bangs at around 3:10 that Stipp was convinced were gun shots?

2: If OP shot at 3:17+, while he was on his stumps, how did he manage to do all that he had to do in a minute or so, in time to be making phone calls at 3:19?

He had to have gone back and forth from bathroom to bedroom at least once, put on his legs, kicked, bashed and wrenched open toilet door, dragged Reeva's body to bathroom and attempt to assist there, shouted and screamed (from balcony)

3. What happened to the cricket bat and kicking and door wrenching noises? Several people were very alert to the situation after 3:17. They reported no more banging noises.


I saw "Occam's Razor" invoked a few posts back........

It would seem to me that good old Occam would say the noises at 3:10 were gunshots, and the noises at 3:17 were cricket bat.

I've answered all of these questions numerous times before.

And Occam's Razor is being incorrectly applied by you.

Remember that all the emergency calls to security took place at approximately 3:16 straight after the gunshots.

Out of all the witnesses, only the Stipps heard the initial loud bangs. These initial loud bangs could have been door slams or a cricket bat hitting the toilet door. Given these sounds weren't heard by the other witnesses but the gunshots were heard by all 5, it makes logical sense for these initial loud bangs to be something other than gunshots (otherwise the other 3 witnesses would have heard these as well).

As for point 2, he wasn't on his stumps but was on his prosthetics. This is backed up by OP's testimony where he was 'running' and 'jumping' all over the place.

As for point 3, a door being wrenched open is nowhere near as loud as screaming or gunshots.

In any event, using your own theory, the 'initial loud sounds' heard by the Stipps was just after 3. This makes no sense according to OP's own testimony of events after the shooting.