Trial Discussion Thread #14 - 14.03.28, Day 16

[Interested Bystander]

When asked by Roux, Dr. Stipp testified that "it didn't appear to be open".

But Stipp also stated that he could see the left 1/3 of the window from top to bottom, indicating to me (based on the design of the window, as well as the frosted glass) that the window was open.

Crime scene photos show the bathroom window open.

I don't think Reeva opened that window when she fled into the bathroom & then into the toilet room.

IMO, that window had been open all night, which is the reason why the ear-witnesses were able to hear Reeva's terrified screaming and the subsequent sounds of the gunshots.

Ahh, that is not how I interpreted what he said. I thought he inferred that he could see the left window from top to bottom and that it was closed. I will have to go and check so that I have it clear in my mind. So many things to remember, especially as I haven't made any notes.

 

[minor4th]

The witness testimony is that the first set of bangs happened at about 3 o'clock. Many Attribute that first set of bangs as Oscar hitting objects in his own bathroom to threaten Reeva. The WC door was locked and she was not going to come out. The arguing and screaming and yelling continue until 3:17 when OP decides to shoot at her, he hit her in the hip and she screamed in agony and pain at that moment and OP realized that he had shot her but not killed her so he move to his right to better aim at the direction of her voice and he deliberately fired three more shots at her, killing her.

Gunshots before cricket bat

 

[minor4th]

In going with the witnesses' testimony that you listed above, why would you discount their testimonies about the screaming they heard?

Oscar claimed to have screamed words twice. No testimony has come close to saying they heard words screamed. A neighbor heard arguing and could not tell the language, but that was well before the screaming.

IMO Here is where Oscar tripped up: he should have said he thought it was a female intruder!

:wink:

I believe they heard screams.

 

[Viper]

Gunshots before cricket bat

Nope. Cricket bat before gunshots, to the bathtub plate and to the door to threaten Reeva. Batman was not referring to a "mark" on the door he was referring to a "tear" on the door, where OP tore a piece of panel off, that tear went through a bullet hole.

It would be nice if one of us took the initiative to watch that portion of his testimony again, it wasn't that long and isn't that hard to find. :smile:

 

[minor4th]

Nope. Cricket bat before gunshots, to the bathtub plate and to the door to threaten Reeva. Batman was not referring to a "mark" on the door he was referring to a "tear" on the door, where OP tore a piece of panel off, that tear went through a bullet hole.

It would be nice if one of us took the initiative to watch that portion of his testimony again, it wasn't that long and isn't that hard to find. :smile:

State's forensic experts said gunshots before cricket bat.

 

[Cherwell]

When asked by Roux, Dr. Stipp testified that "it didn't appear to be open".

But Stipp also stated that he could see the left 1/3 of the window from top to bottom, indicating to me (based on the design of the window, as well as the frosted glass) that the window was open.

Regardless of whether it was open or closed .... I thought Dr Stipp meant that he had a clear view of that part of the window. From the photos I've seen, there seems to be some shrubbery reaching up to the rest of the window, which might obscure it from some angles.

 

[minor4th]

Nope. Cricket bat before gunshots, to the bathtub plate and to the door to threaten Reeva. Batman was not referring to a "mark" on the door he was referring to a "tear" on the door, where OP tore a piece of panel off, that tear went through a bullet hole.

It would be nice if one of us took the initiative to watch that portion of his testimony again, it wasn't that long and isn't that hard to find. :smile:

I have taken the initiative to watch his testimony again and in fact I posted the video links and transcribed that portion.

 

[Viper]

If you missed it, Nel asked Batman whether or not the two superficial marks left on the door by the two cricket bat strikes were consistant with OP threatening Reeva, Batnan replied "yes."

The bat was never used to "beat down" the door, it was used after the murder to pry the long slender piece of panel loose so that OP then ripped and pushed it through on to the WC floor; he then continued to tear off two much larger pieces using his hands. Look at the images of the door, all of the top panels are gone, ripped out, and yet when the door is reconstructed only two small superficial marks from the bat are discovered.

 

[steveml]

One of OP's legal team was asked by one of the reporters (possibly Alex Crawford but not sure) why OP was taking the stand. The answer was "We have to". Sounds as though they don't feel they can win the case without him taking the stand unless one of you clever people can think of some other reason. I am all ears.

It's very likely that Judge Masipa will place a great deal of weight on the case by determination of OP's state of mind before and during the shooting.
This is very difficult to ascertain merely from a statement, therefore she would really expect him to take the stand.

Defense would be giving themselves such a huge disadvantage without OP on the stand, so yes...in that respect they have to.

 

[Cherwell]

Also, if Mrs. Stipp was already awake for a bit before the first set of bangs, and Oscar really was chasing Reeva all over the house, why did she only start hearing screaming after the bangs? Wouldn't
she have woken up to the sound of a woman screaming already? Before the bangs, she heard nothing.

It's possible. If that was the case she should have said that in her statement and in court. She decided to tell the court it was being 'fluish' that woke her up, which in turn made her look at the alarm clock for the exact time. Sorry, inexact time, as the clock is always wrong by a few minutes. Then, she heard the 3 shots. Her husband also only heard 3 bangs.

How can we accept her credibility when she keeps having memory relapses at critical points?

Didn't Mrs Stipp say that she was awake because she was coughing? I can certainly relate to that. When I've had cold viruses, the coughing part usually kicks in worst at night.

If she was afflicted by one of those deep, racking coughs, I can easily believe that while actually having a coughing fit, she might not hear sounds from outside.

 

[minor4th]

If you missed it, Nel asked Batman whether or not the two superficial marks left on the door by the two cricket bat strikes were consistant with OP threatening Reeva, Batnan replied "yes."

The bat was never used to "beat down" the door, it was used after the murder to pry the long slender piece of panel loose so that OP then ripped and pushed it through on to the WC floor; he then continued to tear off two much larger pieces using his hands. Look at the images of the door, all of the top panels are gone, ripped out, and yet when the door is reconstructed only two small superficial marks from the bat are discovered.

Have another look - here it is laid out nice and neatly with video references and a transcription. As you'll see in the linked post you and I have had this exact same dialogue in the past. There was no mention of the cricket bat being used to scare Reeva

Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community - View Single Post - Trial Discussion Thread #10 - 14.03.19-21, Days 13-15

 

[steveml]

lol there's nothing anybody can say to offend or upset me.

How stupid would it be to choose to be upset over something some strangers on an internet forum typed about me half way around the world?

We're all intelligent. Let's just choose to be happy no matter what other people type.

I never understood how or why some people sit around waiting for others to say something to be offended by. Why plan ahead to be upset??? lol

It's sorted N,

This was about a joke that was misunderstood (not mine by the way :wink and it was cleared up at the time.

I know what you mean though :smile:

 

[Cherwell]

At the Bail Hearing, IIRC OP claimed that he was keeping that ammunition for his father.

My God, he was planning to shoot his father as well?

[/joking]

 

[Viper]

Gunshots before cricket bat

Have another look - here it is laid out nice and neatly with video references and a transcription. As you'll see in the linked post you and I have had this exact same dialogue in the past. There was no mention of the cricket bat being used to scare Reeva

Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community - View Single Post - Trial Discussion Thread #10 - 14.03.19-21, Days 13-15

Thank you for the link!!!

Quoting your link:
"Vermeulen: I guess if we say other reasons, it might ...

Nel: Let us speculate, you're asked to speculate - could it have been to scare someone? Is it possible?

Vermeulen: If we speculate, it's possible.. (chuckle). We also cannot prove that that mark was caused during the unfortunate incident.

Scare is the word that was used. But frankly that is even more horrific than threaten. Anyway I hope this issue is now settled!!!

 

[Gbtaketwo]

My point was, and still is, that many who are convinced that OP is guilty are still looking for more evidence because the state's case is simply not compelling enough to explain premeditated murder.

There may be some truth in that but on the other hand you can have a box full of jigsaw puzzle pieces that do not reveal the picture until you put it together .
I personally would not like to make a prediction of pre meditation on the strength of his case before I have heard Nel's closing arguments which should help tie things together for a dummy like me.
I am not sure what differences there are between SA law and UK law .
Do I remember rightly that at the bail hearing Nel stated that even if he did not intend to kill Reeva on the basis that he thought it was an intruder he would still be guilty of pre meditated murder ? Or maybe I read it when I was just too tired .

 

[kittychi]

The number of fans growing from one to two is a minor detail, in my opinion. And it depends on the wording of the statement that has led people to believe it was only one first time. A more than minor inconsistency would be adding details like I brought the fans in, had a smoke, etc. I still fail to see how adding a fan would help him.

And we've already established that Oscar maintains they went to bed at 10. The short convo he had with Reeva is presumed to have happened in bed after he'd woken up and shortly before bringing the fans in.

BBM: Do you mean that we have established they went to bed at 10:00 according to OP, right? Not that it has been established any other way.

...just wanting to clarify your statement so I can keep following along

Thank you

 

[Cherwell]

There may be some truth in that but on the other hand you can have a box full of jigsaw puzzle pieces that do not reveal the picture until you put it together .
I personally would not like to make a prediction of pre meditation on the strength of his case before I have heard Nel's closing arguments which should help tie things together for a dummy like me.
I am not sure what differences there are between SA law and UK law.

I agree (not that you're a dummy, lol)

One difference is that we haven't heard an opening argument from the prosecution. We normally get told the prosecution's version of events right from the start, but not this time.

 

[sorrell skye]

Regardless of whether it was open or closed .... I thought Dr Stipp meant that he had a clear view of that part of the window. From the photos I've seen, there seems to be some shrubbery reaching up to the rest of the window, which might obscure it from some angles.

Yes - I agree - there is some shrubbery that partially obscured the view of the lower portion of the 2 windowpanes on the right.

http://juror13lw.wordpress.com/

Another interesting part of Dr. Stipp's testimony is that he saw a pale figure moving from right to left in the bathroom. IDK if he would have been able to discern that from the distance of his balcony if the window had been closed (since all the panes are frosted).

This, along with the crime scene photos that show the bathroom window open, as well as the ear-witnesses hearing the crime in progress, leads me to believe that the bathroom window had been open all night prior to OP allegedly hearing it "sliding open".

Here is an exterior crime scene pic of the bathroom window:

http://juror13lw.wordpress.com/

Thank You to Lisasalinger for your most excellent blog & screencaps of photos!

 

[curiousjo]

The doctor said that the he could see a pale skinned person moving left to right. Wonder if that was when OP pulling R out of loo? Also said glass tinted.

 

[sorrell skye]

Very insightful post, as usual.

I wanted to add that the photos show the WC window open as well. Mrs. Stipp said that the screams seemed to be coming closer to her at one point. I suspect that Reeva had opened that small WC window to cry for help, making her cries seem louder and clearer to Mrs. Stipp, who perceived that change as the screaming person moving closer to her.

Viper - I've scrutinized this photo of the toilet room window (the small window to the left), and I can't tell if it's open or closed. I remember Roux claiming it was closed, and Nel didn't object, so I'm thinking it was closed. What do you think?

http://juror13lw.wordpress.com/