Trial Discussion Thread #14 - 14.03.28, Day 16

[Gbtaketwo]

I agree (not that you're a dummy, lol)

One difference is that we haven't heard an opening argument from the prosecution. We normally get told the prosecution's version of events right from the start, but not this time.

Thanks I do feel out of my depth here at times
Do you think that is because OP has made a statement confirming he did indeed shoot Reeva ?
Is the defence case that it was self defence because he thought it was an intruder or accidental because he didn't mean to shoot Reeva or both ?

 

[Really?]

What should she have told the court if she doesn't know what woke her?? As for waking and looking at the clock I do it all the time... JMO

BBM:

That is the first thing I do....... I look and squint at the clock.......every time.

 

[Gbtaketwo]

Yes - I agree - there is some shrubbery that partially obscured the view of the lower portion of the 2 windowpanes on the right.

http://juror13lw.wordpress.com/

Another interesting part of Dr. Stipp's testimony is that he saw a pale figure moving from right to left in the bathroom. IDK if he would have been able to discern that from the distance of his balcony if the window had been closed (since all the panes are frosted).

This, along with the crime scene photos that show the bathroom window open, as well as the ear-witnesses hearing the crime in progress, leads me to believe that the bathroom window had been open all night prior to OP allegedly hearing it "sliding open".

Here is an exterior crime scene pic of the bathroom window:

http://juror13lw.wordpress.com/

Thank You to Lisasalinger for your most excellent blog & screencaps of photos!

I think the view for the other balcony was clearer ?
One thing is for sure they would have definitely be able to tell whether there was a light on .
This was in their statements immediately after the event so I would be inclined to accept that as an honest observation .

 

[fox1lady]

My husband watched a BBC news interview this morning with someone legal in South Africa Who said that Nel had done a good job so far .
For those of you in South Africa would you agree with this statement ?
I didn't see it myself but no doubt it will be broadcast again .

Apparently he has nowhere near played his hand as yet. Very interested to see how he does when he starts cross examining the witnesses.... is it right that he's one of the top prosecution lawyers?

 

[Gbtaketwo]

Apparently he has nowhere near played his hand as yet. Very interested to see how he does when he starts cross examining the witnesses.... is it right that he's one of the top prosecution lawyers?

As far as I am aware from other posters on WS and press reports .
And yes we have a long way to go in this trial .
I fully expect a robust challenge of Defence witnesses by Nel and strongly worded closing arguments from both sides

 

[Viper]

Viper - I've scrutinized this photo of the toilet room window (the small window to the left), and I can't tell if it's open or closed. I remember Roux claiming it was closed, and Nel didn't object, so I'm thinking it was closed. What do you think?

http://juror13lw.wordpress.com/

I can't tell if it is open or closed by that image. My memory is of another image, it was taken from a height above the house looking down on it and it seemed to me that the window was open. I will look for it later and if it is obviously open I will post it.

Regarding whatever Roux said, Nel had, in my opinion, very few objections to Roux's antics. So I am not sure if that one means anything.

I'm not much help on this, sorry! :smile:

 

[fox1lady]

My point was, and still is, that many who are convinced that OP is guilty are still looking for more evidence because the state's case is simply not compelling enough to explain premeditated murder.

Not that I know much but I would have thought that the fact that Oscar passed a test knowing that if he shot through a locked door 4 times knowing that there was someone behind it (there must have been screams) could be perceived as him wanting to kill that person. Is that then not premeditate murder?

 

[wishIknewmore]

who has the bigger motive to lie?? Oscar??? or mrs VD merwe, mrs burger, mr Johnson mrs stipp and dr stipp?


who is on trial for their life?? Oscar or the ear witnesses??

who gains from a lie?? Oscar or the witnesses??


Qui prodest?

Unfortunately I think that there's probably inaccuracy by all parties. We've all played the telephone game and it proves that many people don't always hear correctly whether its due to poor hearing or poor listening skills. Some have poor memory and either forget parts or just can't properly communicate what happened. Then you always have someone who may intentionally mess things up for their own personal gain. Therefore, we probably have some miscommunication which explains some of the parts don't fit. You still have to look at consensus and of course, motive.

OP had the motive to outright lie.

 

[james83]

Really, you never get up in the middle of the night feeling hotter or colder than you did earlier and get up to turn the AC on or crank the heat? I honestly do not find that bizarre. Let's see, one of them stirs in bed, wakes the other, they realize they're cold, Oscar gets up to get fans, Reeva goes to the bathroom and crack the window. Seriously, of all the things that could be bizarre about this, I just don't think this is one of them. It's not odd at all.

So Reeva opened the window at 3am because she was cold?.

 

[sorrell skye]

I've stated these opinions in previous threads, but I'll repeat them again, at the risk of sounding like a scratched record.

My opinion of Vermeulen: I found him to be the least credible of the State's forensic witnesses. He admittedly wasn't tool mark certified (which, IMO, casts doubt on his entire testimony). He didn't come across (to me) as a confident witness. He testified that OP was on his stumps when he struck the toilet door with the cricket bat, which is antithetical to the State's case, as Nel has asserted that OP was wearing his prosthetics at that time.

I also discount the portion of Dr. Saayman's testimony when he stated that Reeva ate at around 1:00 a.m. In other cases I've followed, stomach contents have never been used as a scientific method to determine TOD for the precise reason that many factors affect digestion & stomach emptying. Even though it's known in this case when Reeva died, the stomach contents don't offer any reliable information, IMO.

Having said that, the finders of fact in this case (Judge Masipa and the 2 assessors) can accept part, all, or none of any witness's testimony. They are not required to reject a witness's entire testimony if they discount a portion of it.

I like the fact that Judge Masipa is required to explain her reasons for her verdict, as opposed to a jury trial where the verdict is simply delivered with no explanation as to why the verdict was reached.

 

[east2west]

Bit in bold: He didn't "let" her get to the toilet, she made her way there as he was trying to break through the bedroom doors.

Bit that is underlined: But he did reenact the scene from the shining, only difference is he used a gun, not a knife.

Just Wow. If this is a plausible theory, it boggles my mind how an evening with your recently new girlfriend could go off the rails after only a few hours and suddenly screeches to halt at a bathroom stall; ending in bloodshed.

Sent from my SCH-I605 using Tapatalk

 

[MeeBee]

BBM: Do you mean that we have established they went to bed at 10:00 according to OP, right? Not that it has been established any other way.

...just wanting to clarify your statement so I can keep following along

Thank you

Yes, miss kitty, my post said we've established that OP still maintains they went to bed at 10, not that they actually did.

 

[MeeBee]

So Reeva opened the window at 3am because she was cold?.

Or warm. Depends on what the weather was that night. Still don't find it that crazy. Me and my husband, especially get up at night all the time to do nothing but open windows, adjust the AC, turn off the ceiling fans, etc. Don't really know. Maybe OP was bringing the fans in because it was warm and they wanted the fans blowing on them.

 

[james83]

Think i am ready to put down my theory as to what i believe happened please note this is my opinion only.

I believe they were arguing and i believe the route of the argument was jealousy, i don't think it's disputable from those messages we saw a few days back that either Oscar is a jealous and insecure person or at least was a jealous and insecure person during his relationship with Reeva.
I believe the cause of his jealousy this time was Reeva's meeting with her ex Warren Lahoud, i know there is a text in which Oscar appears to give her the o.k to meet him, what i read from this is at some point Reeva made it clear that he had to change his jealous way's, i think this was him really fighting those jealous urge's, but from personal experience with a jealous person, the monster always seems to rear it's ugly head.
You see those messages and you can imagine how Reeva having coffee with an ex must have chipped away at him and eventually the urge to question overpowered him.
I believe they argued about it and she wanted to leave, he got to that point she mentioned a few weeks before in the whatsapp message where he "scares her", she locked herself in the toilet, he went wild outside with the cricket bat on his stumps the whole time, and at some point here the first set of sounds(only noted by the stipps) were heard(possibly the wall tiles or metal panel) she's screams for help, he mocks her cries for help(as heard by Charl Johnson Burger "the man seemed to be embarrassed about shouting for help"), i don't personally believe that at the point where he first picked the gun up he intended to use it, i believe it was originally intended to be a scare tactic, but during the argument whilst she was locked in the toilet she said something that totally tipped him over the edge and before he knew it he'd fired 4 shots.
Next i believe there is a small back to reality period where it dawns on Oscar what he's just done, he probably called her name a few times and was in total shock, i believe eventually the first thing he does is Call Stander in a total panic, i don't believe Oscar told Stander to call an ambulance i believe it was the other way round, hence Oscar then calls netcare(3:20:05), call ends at (3:21:11) they tell him to bring her in and of course this is the stage that Oscar realise's he better get that door open and only now does he put on his prosthesis,shout for help on the balcony(heard by stipp) and get his cricket bat, he gets the door down just in time to drag her out and carry her down the stairs where the Stander's and Baba have just arrived(3.25), the rest we all know.

 

[MeeBee]

lol there's nothing anybody can say to offend or upset me.

How stupid would it be to choose to be upset over something some strangers on an internet forum typed about me half way around the world?

We're all intelligent. Let's just choose to be happy no matter what other people type.

I never understood how or why some people sit around waiting for others to say something to be offended by. Why plan ahead to be upset??? lol

Oh, pfffff!

:nevermind:

 

[sorrell skye]

My point was, and still is, that many who are convinced that OP is guilty are still looking for more evidence because the state's case is simply not compelling enough to explain premeditated murder.

I totally understand your point. I think it's a valid one, which was why I addressed it.

My point was and still is: there never was a smoking gun and there never will be a smoking gun with regard to the State's CIC, and I was simply reminding folks of that fact.

IMO, expecting a smoking gun, after Mr. Nel stated that the case and evidence is largely circumstantial, is not an expectation that can be solely attributed to whomever is supposedly "convinced" of OP's guilt. I think the same argument can be made for whomever is on the fence, as well as for anyone who presumes him to be innocent of the charges.

The State is not required to overcome the burden of unreasonable doubt or to prove their case beyond a shadow of a doubt.

 

[MeeBee]

In going with the witnesses' testimony that you listed above, why would you discount their testimonies about the screaming they heard?

Oscar claimed to have screamed words twice. No testimony has come close to saying they heard words screamed. A neighbor heard arguing and could not tell the language, but that was well before the screaming.

IMO Here is where Oscar tripped up: he should have said he thought it was a female intruder!

:wink:

A couple witnesses heard a man yelling help. Mrs. Burger speculated that it was the man mocking the woman.

 

[Viper]

Regarding whether or not Reeva knew that OP was going to shoot her, I said earlier that I believed that she did not. I was wrong. Here is why, she was not standing in front of the door, she was standing to the far left of the door. OP did not just shoot in a perpendicular line at the door, OP shot at a angle and he still hit her without seeing her. If you look at the ballistics photo showing the trajectory rods inserted in the door you will see the first shot, it is the yellow rod, and then you will notice that OP move to his right to reacquire his aim at Reeva as she had fallen and the source of her screams was now lower. The three final shots are marked in the same beige rods.

http://juror13lw.files.wordpress.com/2014/03/door-with-markers1.jpg

So I do believe she knew that he had his gun and that he told her he was going to kill her.

 

[james83]

Or warm. Depends on what the weather was that night. Still don't find it that crazy. Me and my husband, especially get up at night all the time to do nothing but open windows, adjust the AC, turn off the ceiling fans, etc. Don't really know. Maybe OP was bringing the fans in because it was warm and they wanted the fans blowing on them.

Happy to agree to disagree.

 

[MeeBee]

Didn't Mrs Stipp say that she was awake because she was coughing? I can certainly relate to that. When I've had cold viruses, the coughing part usually kicks in worst at night.

If she was afflicted by one of those deep, racking coughs, I can easily believe that while actually having a coughing fit, she might not hear sounds from outside.

Yes she did I can believe that, too. It's certainly convenient that she woke up just moments before the shooting. But hey, maybe she really did.