Trial Discussion Thread #26 - 14.04.15, Day 23

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Rumpole said:
Thanks. I do remember that exchange it was a critical moment. Well worth watching again.

Nicely played by Roux, getting Nel to state categorically that shooting was at 3:17. That they were the ONLY shots.
THAT is what I keep arguing makes a NONSENSE of the States case, given the times we know of events that must have occurred after the shooting, and the available time after 3:17. It goes way beyond the "Nel Test" Not only does it "not make sense" it is physically IMPOSSIBLE.

Nel: "Two sets of noises, shots at 3:17"

Judge clarifies ALL shots were at 3:17. Nel agrees.

The whole exchange is well worth watching NOW after all that we have heard. Nel is clearly talking nonsense?


I have always maintained that Stipps would have made a great STAR witness for the defense, if State had not already called him.
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the dr called security at 3:15 after hearing bangs. did he only hear one set of 'bangs' ?
 
It seems to me that when people listen to the Two (only) couples who comprise the total evidence the State have in regards screams, people focus on "woman's screams" in a blinkered fashion and do not follow the State ear witness testimony as a whole. Take out the "woman" that both couples are mistaken about (IMO) and their testimony supports OP's version..... PERFECTLY.

The State proved OP's version in trying to put their case. They proved very little about their own version. (such as it is)
 
Rumpole said:
Thanks. I do remember that exchange it was a critical moment. Well worth watching again.

Nicely played by Roux, getting Nel to state categorically that shooting was at 3:17. That they were the ONLY shots.
THAT is what I keep arguing makes a NONSENSE of the States case, given the times we know of events that must have occurred after the shooting, and the available time after 3:17. It goes way beyond the "Nel Test" Not only does it "not make sense" it is physically IMPOSSIBLE.

Nel: "Two sets of noises, shots at 3:17"

Judge clarifies ALL shots were at 3:17. Nel agrees.

The whole exchange is well worth watching NOW after all that we have heard. Nel is clearly talking nonsense?


I have always maintained that Stipps would have made a great STAR witness for the defense, if State had not already called him.
Click to expand...

What timeline do you have that shows it is physically impossible for the shots to be at 3:17?


Aside from the first three witnesses who said the shots were at 3am, and after that silence? We are kind of stuck between a rock and a hard place with these witnesses.
 
sleuth-d- said:
the dr called security at 3:15 after hearing bangs. did he only hear one set of 'bangs' ?
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He phoned after hearing first bangs (and screams) and it was after he was on the phone that he heard second set of bangs. Nel confirms those bangs were at 3:17.

Phone records also confirm that the ONLY bangs the Burger(s) heard were at 3:17.

The time of those bangs is not in dispute.. it was a little after 3:17
 
Madeleine74 said:
One 'fast' car ride would have me bolting to get away from this guy once and for all. That's a big no-no to me, unless I'm choosing to be on a racetrack with a professional driver. Someone who drives far beyond the speed limit (and I'm talking over 20mph over) with passengers in their car is not someone who thinks about the safety and comfort of others. The first time would indeed be the very last time.

Too bad RS didn't understand his lack of empathy before it was too late. And fortunate for his prior GF (Samantha) that she got dumped and away from him. Very fortunate for her.
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Agree. Fast car ride incident happened to me. I insisted that the car be stopped so my friend & I could get out. I felt safer walking home alone that night than I did in that car. No future contact with the driver....

JMO
 
Madeleine74 said:
That's really it. I think Jilly captured the essence of this case.

4 shots, with a pause in between. Not 1 shot, which could be an accident. 4 shots.

He knew. He had to know. He was intentionally killing someone. He claims he did intend to kill anyone. That is false.

Add to that the screams heard by more than 1 person, the changing of OP's story, his inconsistencies and to me it adds up to more than culpable homicide.

I have a feeling Milady will agree.
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BIB. Indeed! One shot is in this case potentially culpable homicide. But four shots show intent to kill and premeditation. OP is history.
 
Rumpole said:
He phoned after hearing first bangs (and screams) and it was after he was on the phone that he heard second set of bangs. Nel confirms those bangs were at 3:17.

Phone records also confirm that the ONLY bangs the Burger(s) heard were at 3:17.

The time of those bangs is not in dispute.. it was a little after 3:17
Click to expand...

Is it possible he shot her once at 3am followed by three blows with the bat on the door, and then shot her three more times fifteen minutes later?

Doc couldn't tell the difference between gunshots and the bat on the door.
 
Rumpole said:
Thanks. I do remember that exchange it was a critical moment. Well worth watching again.

Nicely played by Roux, getting Nel to state categorically that shooting was at 3:17. That they were the ONLY shots.
THAT is what I keep arguing makes a NONSENSE of the States case, given the times we know of events that must have occurred after the shooting, and the available time after 3:17. It goes way beyond the "Nel Test" Not only does it "not make sense" it is physically IMPOSSIBLE.

Nel: "Two sets of noises, shots at 3:17"

Judge clarifies ALL shots were at 3:17. Nel agrees.

The whole exchange is well worth watching NOW after all that we have heard. Nel is clearly talking nonsense?


I have always maintained that Stipps would have made a great STAR witness for the defense, if State had not already called him.
Click to expand...

Notice how it is just flat out ignored by the Oscar-is-guilty crowd? There's no way the State can get around this.
 
molly333 said:
What timeline do you have that shows it is physically impossible for the shots to be at 3:17?


Aside from the first three witnesses who said the shots were at 3am, and after that silence? We are kind of stuck between a rock and a hard place with these witnesses.
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All of the forensic experts have said the gunshots must have been before the cricket bat hit the door. Both sides agree that the gunshots happened all at once and were not separated by minutes.
 
Viper said:
I don't understand why you are still arguing this. Would you really prefer that OP killed Reeva at 3:00 rather than 3:17? He called for help at 3:19. What did OP do for 19 minutes?

BIB Is the use of "must have" inserted there is to explain that the statement is actually personal opinion and not really a fact, correct? I ask because the statement is not a fact.
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No, that's incorrect. The State's forensic expert and the defense forensic expert explained that the gunshots must have happened before the cricket bat hitting the door. They explained this by reference to cracks through the bullet hole and through the panels that were torn out.

Nel is not disputing this.
 
But Oscar is guilty. That is not in dispute. What is in dispute is exactly what he's guilty of. I don't care if the 4 shots were together in sequence or separated by minutes.

4 shots.

No excuses for 4. 1 shot could be an "accident." 4 shots is intentional. 4 shots into a tiny little loo where he knew a human being who was not attacking him was locked, is not an accident.

The gun did not shoot itself.

There were indeed screams and I do not think all the screams were Oscar's.

4 shots. More than culpable homicide.
 
Karmady said:
How is it possible that the prosecutor does not appreciate that this is fatal to his case? jmo
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Nel is not dumb, so lets assume he knows all too well that his case is fatally flawed.

It makes his aggressive, bullying, badgering of OP hard to justify. That is why I see Nel as no "Juan Martinez"...
 
Karmady said:
How is it possible that the prosecutor does not appreciate that this is fatal to his case? jmo
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OH, I think he does appreciate that it's fatal to his case. That's why he was so urgent about not allowing Roux to say it to the witness.
 
Madeleine74 said:
But Oscar is guilty. That is not in dispute. What is in dispute is exactly what he's guilty of. I don't care if the 4 shots were together in sequence or separated by minutes.

4 shots.

No excuses for 4. 1 shot could be an "accident." 4 shots is intentional. 4 shots into a tiny little loo where he knew a human being who was not attacking him was locked, is not an accident.

The gun did not shoot itself.

There were indeed screams and I do not think all the screams were Oscar's.

4 shots. More than culpable homicide.
Click to expand...

Not if he believed he was shooting at an armed intruder
 
Viper said:
BIB. Indeed! One shot is in this case potentially culpable homicide. But four shots show intent to kill and premeditation. OP is history.
Click to expand...

Exactly. He also just happens to stop shooting after the shot to her head. Coincidence? No way.

JMO
 
nastasya said:
You're wrong on two points.

First, both experts said that the only thing that could be determined was the wood was ripped from the door after the shots. Both experts said it would be impossible to know whether the bat hit the door before or after the shots. By the way, that's simply common sense.

Second, watch the video your posted. At precisely 28:38, Roux refers to the shots.

He says, "Not the first shots. The REAL shots."

Roux is confusing the defense version like OP did. Roux himself says the first shots were NOT the "real" shots.

If they claim that Reeva was shot earlier, then there is no arterial blood spurting from her body 17 minutes later. There's no way to explain how OP could shoot her and wait 19 minutes to call anybody. There's no way she was slumped over, but still alive, 17 minutes after taking a bullet through her brain. There is no large pool of blood on the flood from arterial bleeding for 17 minutes.

It doesn't matter who heard shots or cricket bats. What matters is the biology. Reeva wasn't bleeding out for 17 minutes, or even 10 minutes, in the bathroom.
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There was never any arterial blood in the hallway. Who said there was arterial blood? The pathologist said she died instantly [maybe one or two breaths] after head wound.



"First, both experts said that the only thing that could be determined was the wood was ripped from the door after the shots. Both experts said it would be impossible to know whether the bat hit the door before or after the shots. "

So, they cannot tell whether the bat hit the door before or after the shots.

Is it possible he ripped out some part of the door before the shots so he could look inside?
 
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