Malaysia Flight MH17 shot down in Ukraine. 298 aboard. 7/17/2014 - #1

[Steely Dan]

[h=1]Malaysia Airlines MH17: Russia says Tony Abbott's comments blaming separatists are 'unacceptable', Julie Bishop criticises Moscow for lack of talks[/h]
http://www.abc.net.au/news/2014-07-19/russia-says-abbott-comments-mh17-downing-unacceptable/5608852

Here we go .. they have a point about not assigning blame without evidence.

There's evidence. http://www.cnn.com/2014/07/18/politics/top-officials-slam-russia-and-putin/index.html?iref=allsearch


...President Barack Obama said Friday that Russian President Vladimir Putin has the "most control" over the situation in eastern Ukraine as intelligence indicates that rebels most likely shot down Flight 17 from an area they control with a surface-to-air missile....

 

[Steely Dan]

Yep that's what I think will happen, except I think they'll be condemned to death.

I think that's too obvious for Putin. I think he'll imprison them for about a year and then they'll quietly go back to their old jobs, just not on the front. JMO

 

[jslk]

So, I mentioned yesterday I live near a military air base in the UK with a large population of US service people. There were US military planes flying overhead every few minutes yesterday early on, which represented a significant increase in that type of activity. It's gone a bit quieter now.


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[jslk]

Team of UK air accident investigators headed to the scene http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-28381777

However another article acknowledges, as above, that "a team of international observers say pro-Russian rebels in Ukraine have limited their access to the wreckage of a Malaysia Airlines plane" http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-283814

I think we've got a a situation now where there are people on the ground ready and waiting to recover bodies but there's a stand off on the ground. Someone needs to take charge of the situation, and fast. But that means resolving the whole Ukraine question, inn a way.


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[Steely Dan]

Team of UK air accident investigators headed to the scene http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-28381777

However another article acknowledges, as above, that "a team of international observers say pro-Russian rebels in Ukraine have limited their access to the wreckage of a Malaysia Airlines plane" http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-283814

I think we've got a a situation now where there are people on the ground ready and waiting to recover bodies but there's a stand off on the ground. Someone needs to take charge of the situation, and fast. But that means resolving the whole Ukraine question, inn a way.


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I have seen nothing to back this up. It's only a guess. They might be trying to bargain site access for a: "It was an unfortunate accident by rebels who believed they were under attack by the Ukrainian air force, and that's what caused the problem. We now close this case." I don't think they'll get far with that. They can't hold out much longer.

 

[BayouBelle_LA]

Militants Thwart Efforts to Investigate MH17 Crash Site

The chairman for the Organization for Security and Cooperation in Europe (OSCE), a security and rights group, told Reuters that the organization's monitors were not given adequate access to the crash site of Malaysian Airline's flight MH17.

"They did not have the kind of access that they expected. They did not have the freedom of movement that they need to do their job," Thomas Greminger said. He told CNN that the group was "only allowed access to about a 200-meter strip" and heavily armed militants sent them away after about 75 minutes.

ETA Link - http://www.thewire.com/global/2014/...fforts-to-investigate-mh17-crash-site/374698/

 

[Steely Dan]

After reading this article: http://www.cnn.com/2014/07/18/politics/top-officials-slam-russia-and-putin/index.html?iref=allsearch

It seems to me that both sides are willing to put aside petty politics and work together on this problem. That alone should tell people how worried we've become about Putin.

 

[newone]

So, I mentioned yesterday I live near a military air base in the UK with a large population of US service people. There were US military planes flying overhead every few minutes yesterday early on, which represented a significant increase in that type of activity. It's gone a bit quieter now.


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here's hoping that they were flying low and taking lots and lots of hi res photos.......in lieu of on the ground cleanup it's a sure way to gather some evidence JMO

 

[Steely Dan]

here's hoping that they were flying low and taking lots and lots of hi res photos.......in lieu of on the ground cleanup it's a sure way to gather some evidence JMO

I think they may have been deployed closer to the Russian border. At least I hope so. Just a few more planes. Nothing to make Putin act hostile, but just enough to send a message that we have plans for you if you try anything.

 

[HoolyDooly]

You know what .. watching our politicians act all tough with Putin is an embarrassment .. I don't think I can read any more reports of Aussies puffing up their chests over this one. As per usual it seems that we're just going to follow along like good little puppy dogs into whatever conflict arises from this, I hope we don't engage with Russia, because let me tell you if we open that can of worms the Chinese could get involved and Australia will become a suburb of Beijing.

I am thinking ....criminal act...murder - mass murder/mass manslaughter, more-so than anything else. Discraceful lost for words.....

 

[newone]

I think they may have been deployed closer to the Russian border. At least I hope so. Just a few more planes. Nothing to make Putin act hostile, but just enough to send a message that we have plans for you if you try anything.

personally...I would hope that they zoomed the same path of the MH17 very very speedily and took lots and lots of photos -- do you really think that anyone would have had the gonies to knock the planes out of the sky at this point?

 

[zwiebel]

Video at link. This situation is an utter disgrace. The poor families.

'Grabove, Ukraine (CNN) -- Debris from Malaysia Airlines Flight 17 lay splayed for miles across silent rural fields in eastern Ukraine on Saturday. Two days after the jet crashed, some bodies remained strapped in seat belts -- wearing inflight headphones.
Conspicuously missing at the crash site near Torez were international forensic workers needed to secure and sort the wreckage, and a recovery crew to identify and remove with dignity the bodies of the 298 people who were on board MH17.'

http://edition.cnn.com/2014/07/19/w...sia-airlines-scene-story/index.html?hpt=hp_t1

 

[gngr~snap]

Geez, I just don't know. If I was a rescuer would I risk it to go there? It's so tense. I would be very afraid.
That said, it's too late already. Too hot, too wet and when these goons decide it is out of their control, they will call for help and leave the premises or, just vacate. At any rate it is going to get so much worse. Helpers should have been sent a day ago and arriving NOW.

All posts are MOO.

 

[newone]

Video at link. This situation is an utter disgrace. The poor families.

'Grabove, Ukraine (CNN) -- Debris from Malaysia Airlines Flight 17 lay splayed for miles across silent rural fields in eastern Ukraine on Saturday. Two days after the jet crashed, some bodies remained strapped in seat belts -- wearing inflight headphones.
Conspicuously missing at the crash site near Torez were international forensic workers needed to secure and sort the wreckage, and a recovery crew to identify and remove with dignity the bodies of the 298 people who were on board MH17.'

http://edition.cnn.com/2014/07/19/w...sia-airlines-scene-story/index.html?hpt=hp_t1

good report that shows a great deal of sensitivity towards the families and victims. Reporter did say that Ukraine did have people on the ground (understaffed) that were attempting to do the right thing.

 

[bessie]

Video at link. This situation is an utter disgrace. The poor families.

'Grabove, Ukraine (CNN) -- Debris from Malaysia Airlines Flight 17 lay splayed for miles across silent rural fields in eastern Ukraine on Saturday. Two days after the jet crashed, some bodies remained strapped in seat belts -- wearing inflight headphones.
Conspicuously missing at the crash site near Torez were international forensic workers needed to secure and sort the wreckage, and a recovery crew to identify and remove with dignity the bodies of the 298 people who were on board MH17.'

http://edition.cnn.com/2014/07/19/w...sia-airlines-scene-story/index.html?hpt=hp_t1

A compound tragedy -- one that defiles all things human and decent.

May the good Lord bless the souls of the lost, and the wounded spirits of their loved ones.



:moo: :moo: :moo: :moo:

 

[zwiebel]

The Guardian has a reporter at the scene now.

'For miles around, you can see them, strips of white cotton attached to wooden stakes in the fields of eastern Ukraine. Each stake marks a victim from flight MH17, or at least a body part. There are a lot of stakes.'

'It was not just the human passengers that died. An unlikely menagerie of dead pets lay strewn across the scene in the grass, bright blue and yellow macaws, a cockatoo, a random giant St Bernard dog curled peacefully where he fell.'

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/jul/18/ukraine-plane-crash-site-mh17

 

[Wolf Dreamer]

Randomly firing in a peaceful & law abiding society may be considered a criminal act under
certain circumstances ... for instance, among a population as opposed to alone in the woods.

But war torn areas seem to have different rules because people
get killed in them & soldiers are not arrested & imprisoned for it.

Not true. That's why there is the International Criminal Court. I used to know someone who was working on war crimes committed in the former Yugoslavia. It's just not easy for these thing s to happen while the conflict is ongoing.

Of course this is different to someone firing randomly in a town. This is a country that is trying to retain it's independence in the face of rebels backed by one of the most powerful nations in the world. This wasn't random firing, this was someone firing at what they believed was an enemy aircraft.

None of the few facts I've seen so far suggest a commercial jet was deliberately targeted. Who is to blame? The people who fired? The accountants that run airlines for continuing to overfly a war zone? The international air industry for not putting a comprehensive ban in place? Right now noone is even sure who is really responsible. It's much too early in the process.

 

[zwiebel]

Imagine being a bird shut in a cage and falling to your death, unable to fly. Sad. And the St Bernard.

 

[newone]

Not true. That's why there is the International Criminal Court. I used to know someone who was working on war crimes committed in the former Yugoslavia. It's just not easy for these thing s to happen while the conflict is ongoing.

Of course this is different to someone firing randomly in a town. This is a country that is trying to retain it's independence in the face of rebels backed by one of the most powerful nations in the world. This wasn't random firing, this was someone firing at what they believed was an enemy aircraft.

None of the few facts I've seen so far suggest a commercial jet was deliberately targeted. Who is to blame? The people who fired? The accountants that run airlines for continuing to overfly a war zone? The international air industry for not putting a comprehensive ban in place? Right now noone is even sure who is really responsible. It's much too early in the process.

bbm

Thank you is not enough!

 

[zwiebel]

'Barack Obama threatened to "increase the costs" to Russia if Moscow fails to de-escalate the situation in Ukraine, as US and other western officials said there was mounting evidence that a missile fired by Russia-backed separatists downed the Malaysia Airlines jet which crashed in eastern Ukraine on Thursday.'

BBM (He's talking about Saturday).
"We will keep coming back tomorrow and the next day and the next day," said OSCE spokesman Michael Bociurkiw. "Tomorrow will be a crunch day. There are a lot of experts from the Netherlands and Malaysia gathering in Kiev as well as relatives.'

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/jul/18/mh17-crash-pro-russia-rebels-block-access-ukraine