Family wants to keep life support for girl brain dead after tonsil surgery #9

[K_Z]

Law student, what I see is that NW has already received the "remedy" intended by the NJ law. She has achieved admission to a hospital, a tertiary care center, to a specialized PICU environment, with ongoing care for her brain dead daughter. As I read it, there is no other "remedy" promised or implied in the NJ, nor any suggestion that there is somehow discrimination or prejudice towards families who either accept, delay, or refuse, withdrawal of support. And no promise or assertion of rights to state administered financial support.

If NW chooses to challenge the death certificate issued by CA, it seems logical she would have to challenge that in CA.

To apply for NJ benefits, it seems she would have to, as you say, not seek to revoke the CA death certificate, but seek some kind of "alive" legal determination. The only thing I'm aware of to determine living status of a person is a birth certificate. One of our kids is adopted internationally, and I have other experience with adoption, and with proper legal documentation, state agencies will issue a new birth certificate to a living person. Our internationally adopted child has a state BC that identifies her country of birth.

So it seems to me that if NW wants to have the documents to apply for state and other benefits for Jahi, she needs a state birth certificate re-issued, as well as a new social security number (or a re-activation of the previous one). So NW would need both a STATE challenge, as well as a FEDERAL challenge. Thoughts on this?

 

[pukasonqo2]

This is my first encounter with this story. It strikes me as SO no one else's business. The amount of money spent for Jahi's care or publicity or whatever other nonsense is negligible against the backdrop of how people and their governments spend their money, so even *that* bit of imagined personal impact on the rest of us is nonsense. This is a situation that should fade from public consciousness, I'm sure we have plenty of other pressing personal and societal issues to gnash our teeth over. The outrage against the family's behavior is beyond 'our business' and makes me wonder about some folks's priorities. What *we* opine about any aspect of this is a delusion.



All a person can do is reflect upon what they themselves, confronted similarly, would plan to do if confronted with their worst nightmare, and do the family a favor, stop paying attention to them no matter how they demand it.



I'm a nurse and the child's body is not decomposing (for God's sake!) and I've been with countless family who sat with their unresponsive loved one doing their nails and caring for their skin, combing every inch of their body because that is all they have left. It is tender and beautiful, the care I've witnessed being taken. The disgusting remarks I've read (glossing over the links etc) do not reassure me at all, it's as though people revel in spewing their negative, hateful opinions over a tragedy they've arrogantly made THEIR personal business. Gross and shameful.

there is a big difference between a family caring for an unresponsive family member (medical induced coma, coma, brain injury) to what is happening with this child. she is, to all accounts, brain dead with no chance of recovery, as a nurse you would know that once the diagnosis of being brain dead has been made that is it, there is no turning back, no waking up

nobody has a problem with the family caring for her, is the media circus most people are opposed to, the denial of the diagnosis of this young girl being brain dead, the endless press releases saying that she is moving, responding to voice and the shadow they have cast over the professionalism of the doctors and nurses caring for her in hospital

in an ideal world maybe we would have facilities were people who are diagnosed as being brain dead will be kept with a ventilator, which will also bring is own set of controversy which i won't go into

personally i think that the main problem is that, you have a family unwilling to understand that jahi is no more, accepting that life is unfair, making peace and allow the drama to stop




lupus est homini *advertiser censored*, non *advertiser censored*, non quom qualis sit novit

 

[Nore]

Maybe you haven't ever explicitly said anything insulting/negative about Jahi's mother, but others have. Many posts (here and elsewhere) are beyond cynical. They are bashing in nature. Utilizing the brain goes both ways. You can have a brain and compassion at the same time. Using smiley emojis and one liners when referring to how "horrible" this family is, to ME, is uncalled for
and disrespectful. It's like some take pleasure in it or act as if its a game.
This is not a game. In any way.

The fact that some have come here daily since December just to bash. Not add anything to the conversation at all is very telling.

I've followed this story from day one. I know the facts. But I find it hard to read here sometimes.

I think using the word cynicism is actually very kind. It's not the critical thinking that is cynical, it's the bashing. Surely we can all see the difference. Some posts here make me cringe.

JMO
Not to stir the pot but to just let everyone know, those who have compassion for this family do have a brain.

----------- I agree with you. This whole thing would probably slide by if they didnt expect the general public to pay for it! That is a lot to expect from total strangers. I have tried to help people in need and also defenseless animals, my love of dogs. When my son was dying we didnt expect strangers to pay for him. We cared for him ourselves. I think that is my biggest complaint. There are many precious children living who need help. I am in favor of that. I think you would be too.:seeya::crying::beagle::baby::baby: My message was posted to the wrong person..

 

[Nore]

there is a big difference between a family caring for an unresponsive family member (medical induced coma, coma, brain injury) to what is happening with this child. she is, to all accounts, brain dead with no chance of recovery, as a nurse you would know that once the diagnosis of being brain dead has been made that is it, there is no turning back, no waking up

nobody has a problem with the family caring for her, is the media circus most people are opposed to, the denial of the diagnosis of this young girl being brain dead, the endless press releases saying that she is moving, responding to voice and the shadow they have cast over the professionalism of the doctors and nurses caring for her in hospital

in an ideal world maybe we would have facilities were people who are diagnosed as being brain dead will be kept with a ventilator, which will also bring is own set of controversy which i won't go into

personally i think that the main problem is that, you have a family unwilling to understand that jahi is no more, accepting that life is unfair, making peace and allow the drama to stop




lupus est homini *advertiser censored*, non *advertiser censored*, non quom qualis sit novit

-----------------
-----------
Hi I agree with you. This whole thing would probably slide by if they didnt expect the general public to pay for it! That is a lot to expect from total strangers. I have tried to help people in need and also defenseless animals, my love of dogs. When my son was dying we didnt expect strangers to pay for him. We cared for him ourselves. I think that is my biggest complaint. There are many precious children living who need help. I am in favor of that. I think you would be too.
:seeya:

 

[Linda7NJ]

IMO there is a line that everyone has drawn for themselves.

There are huge numbers of people whose line doesn't exist any near my own. We are taught tolerance and are expected to respect other people's beliefs.

My own belief: dead is dead. That's it. Game over. Done. Final. For brain death, see above.

Billions of other people believe they will go to heaven, be rewarded with virgins, live in a palace, fly with angels, be with god,or be reincarnated and return, or countless other ways to be immortal.

Just lump Jahi's mother somewhere in the bottom grouping as her beliefs are no more magical thinking than the rest. IMO

I sincerely hope my post isn't misconstrued as being offensive. It's not meant to be.

I'm basing it solely on evidence or lack of,







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[Nore]

Hi Nore. I'm sorry I overlooked your question earlier today.

To the best of my knowledge, the answer is no. I checked Alan Shewmon's articles again, and a couple of other references for brain dead individuals who received prolonged somatic support (months to years). No clubbing noted. In my experience, I have seen clubbing in adolescents with cystic fibrosis, as well as complex congenital cardiac defects. Clubbing is a result of chronic (years) low partial pressure of oxygen state. It has nothing to do with decomposition. However, shriveling, dehydration of tissues, and retraction of nail bed plumpness in younger and recently dead people can make the nails appear to have "grown" after death. Old wives tale.

Here are some images of clubbing, and a brief explanation of the phenomena.

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nail_clubbing

Search "clubbing of the fingers" and select images for some good pics.

---------------
K_Z, thank you so much for answering my question. I cannot look at the photos. I am too emotional. My dear son's fingers clubbed after he had the basilar artery stroke. I know only too well what they look like. He had splints for his hands. He was a quad with functioning cortex, wide open. When he passed we cared for him properly, I died inside.:loveyou:

 

[Linda7NJ]

---------------

K_Z, thank you so much for answering my question. I cannot look at the photos. I am too emotional. My dear son's fingers clubbed after he had the basilar artery stroke. I know only too well what they look like. He had splints for his hands. He was a quad with functioning cortex, wide open. When he passed we cared for him properly, I died inside.:loveyou:

((((((((Hugs, huge...hugs))))))))


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[wendiesan]

Oh, Nore, you humble me with your compassion and your strength.
You say that when your beloved son passed, you died inside.
To me, you are like a phoenix. You have may have died in the fire of the emotions and pain as your world collapsed and reconstructed itself around you, but you have risen from those ashes.
Your insights are invaluable, and much appreciated.
Thank you for sharing so much of yourself in these threads.
(((NORE)))

 

[seattlechiquita]

Nore ((((((hugs))))) and love to you, beautiful being.

 

[Tssiemer]

I've had trouble working out the law here, but NJ wouldn't be "overruling" California's "right" to issue anything. California issues a death certificate, and that's that. If for some reason it later turned out to have been wrongly issued under CA law, that would be litigated in the CA courts. What NJ does doesn't matter because it doesn't affect what CA did. If there was some way to create a certificate of life and NJ issued one, there could start to be a conflict, but only where interstate issues or federal issues were involved, in which case I'm guessing federal law would control. All CA's certificate does is put people on notice that a death has been declared. Most people will read that and just accept it, so entities in CA wouldn't be giving her benefits or allowing her to litigate. Other states don't have to go by it, but they probably would consider her dead for obvious reasons, and would use the CA certificate as evidence as of that if Jahi's parents tried to get her treated as alive in that state.



The issue here is that NJ hospitalized her. If they moved her into NJ and then requested disability, my guess would be that NJ would see CA's death certificate and deny the request, and use it as evidence in a court battle, and likely win. And if the hospital had been unwilling to accept her ,they would probably have said the same thing.



However, if the hospital is agreeing currently to provide care, whether they consider her brain dead or have some other diagnosis, that leads to the issue of possible removal from life support in the future. In NJ, it would be a lot more difficult for a NJ doctor to make that call himself because of the law. The hospital could go to court with the CA certificate and argue she is dead, but their doctors are not allowed to declare it based on neurological criteria over religious objections.



However, and I don't think the statute considered this possibility - she obviously will experience continuing physical issues from her brain-dead state. If they diagnose brain death based not solely on neuro criteria, but on that criteria, would there be a different result? Could that be a basis for recognizing death, in combination with neuro criteria? That may allow them to remove life support.







Right - I don't think people grasp she is not biologically dead. Brain dead. I mean, she has absolutely no prospect for any recovery and her body is barely capable of functioning such that artificial means are needed. I'm not disputing the seriousness of the situation. But she's not just going to decompose because she isn't dead - her heart and breathing are ongoing. The brain tissue decomposes, just like when you are alive but part of your body decomposes from gangrene, frostbite, tooth decay, etc. But everything else will technically function. The machines don't do as good a job as a functional body in terms of circulating blood, though, so then you get more decomposition at extremities and areas blood isn't reaching. Plus the issue of lack of nourishment is going to cause some wasting away. It's definitely not pretty. But it's not the decomposition some people seem to imagine - it would be a million times more disturbing if this was the equivalent of someone living with a corpse because they couldn't let go. If that's what they were willing to do, there would be no need for the life support - that keeps her from actually being dead and not just according to NJ law.











I do agree with this - obviously everyone here is engaging in some sort of obscure gossip. That's what Websleuths is for! I think this situation very much needs public debate, and I know the family is putting it out there, but people who are saying they wish this evil family would go away because they are so sickened seem to be engaging in masochism. I find it sickening as well, but I also find it interesting, and that's why I read about it. I think the family should quit it with the press attention and have no problem discussing how the social media stuff is seriously pushing it, but it seems silly to express outrage on having to be exposed to this stuff.



I also think the uncle sounds like someone who has highly questionable motives, and it's fine to go after him. But to lump the whole family in with him seems unfair. I think we all know that sometimes you have a relative who causes problems and wants to take advantage of a situation and get attention, and maybe they are too stressed with everything else to get into it.

No I understand the difference. It's just she's still going to decompose a little bit. While she still has oxygen and a faintly beating heart she won't decompose completely but it's still there.


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[dr dona]

I'm sorry to say this--because I'm a very compassionate person--but I find it very disturbing to seek public funding to keep this child--who is brain dead- alive. I am a Pediatrician--I fight every day to have Medicaid pay for the appropriate treatment for living children. Some insurance companies won't pay for open heart surgery on a child unless it is done at a certain hospital---in Iowa the access to treatment at the University of Iowa is often limited by whatever insurance the family has. The very best cardiothoracic surgeons are the U---at least for very complicated cardiac defects.. I find it crazy to use limited tax dollars to prolong life in brain dead children and adults. I myself have a written DNR if my EEG is flat or if I can't breathe on my own and have no chance of recovery. I don't want to waste $$$. I also respect life enough to allow nature to take its course. We have become so sophisticated medically that we can keep people alive when the brain is gone. I feel that our souls--who we are as people--resides in our brain. I couldn't and wouldn't keep myself or my children alive in this state.
IMHO

 

[Tssiemer]

So wait. How often do you "let nature take it's course"?


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[lawstudent]

Law student, what I see is that NW has already received the "remedy" intended by the NJ law. She has achieved admission to a hospital, a tertiary care center, to a specialized PICU environment, with ongoing care for her brain dead daughter. As I read it, there is no other "remedy" promised or implied in the NJ, nor any suggestion that there is somehow discrimination or prejudice towards families who either accept, delay, or refuse, withdrawal of support. And no promise or assertion of rights to state administered financial support.

The remedy is an injunction against a physician declaring death. I can't see how a NJ hospital would be forced to accept her. They aren't required to accept patients and it's not like she was in a condition to be snuck in through the ER without anyone being told what was wrong. I mean I suppose it is possible they showed up there with her an ambulance, and hospitals can't deny lifesaving care. Do we know the circumstances of her transfer? If there was an agreement in advance, though, I don't see how they would be required to accept her under this law at all.

To apply for NJ benefits, it seems she would have to, as you say, not seek to revoke the CA death certificate, but seek some kind of "alive" legal determination. The only thing I'm aware of to determine living status of a person is a birth certificate. One of our kids is adopted internationally, and I have other experience with adoption, and with proper legal documentation, state agencies will issue a new birth certificate to a living person. Our internationally adopted child has a state BC that identifies her country of birth.

I don't think she would have to seek anything upfront - she would apply, NJ would check the database, see she had been declared dead, and reject benefits. She could then explain the circumstances and litigate, and the CA certificate would just be evidence of her death. All the statute does is prevent declaration of death by a NJ physician. I assume it would be considered adequate evidence to deny benefits, because the benefits agency wouldn't be declaring anyone dead. Relying on public records is enough. Litigating benefits eligibility wouldn't give the judge the power to declare life or death, I think - just whether or not the state has shown it has reason to deny them. They could fight NJ's reliance on documents from other states arguing injury through denial of benefits based on that reliance, but that's obviously done all the time, so I don't think that would go anywhere. If they want the death certificate 'canceled', which is the closest thing to a certificate of life I guess, they have to go to CA. I don't think a new birth certificate issuance will have any effect on a death certificate. Thinking of cases where someone has been 'resurrected' - aka resurfaced after being wrongfully declared dead due to administrative error or disappearance, they don't get to have a new SSN or anything. Even if everyone acknowledges they are alive, they are still basically screwed, because they can't change it and birth certificates don't mean anything in that case. So it will continually get flagged in databases. Usually someone at the agency will realize the mistake and reconsider their determination, but you have to talk to each agency individually to convince them of what happened. There's no way to just clear your name and start over. I could be wrong, but that would be my guess. It happens so rarely that there probably is not a lot of law.

http://foxnewsinsider.com/2014/06/19/veteran-wrongly-declared-dead-va-goes-record-about-strange-ordeal

I think in a case like this, the state agency worker recognized and corrected the error at the local VA, but the SSA database will still have him as dead, because they don't coordinate.

Some more:

http://money.cnn.com/2011/08/17/pf/social_security_deaths_mistakes/

As you can see, it's not a legal determination - it's just the agency correcting their database. If you call them and say well she's not really dead because brain death isn't death, I doubt they'd bother to correct it. It's hard to challenge admin decisions like that. You can't challenge how they define death because they aren't - they are relying on how someone else defined it, which they would be entitled to do it seems, since they aren't doctors.

 

[Quester]

- It's déjà vu all over again:

Brain-dead baby focus of mother's court fight
http://www.courier-journal.com/stor...aby-issac-lopez-maintained-machines/12804233/

 

[sallye818]

http://www.wdrb.com/story/26085398/...move-brain-dead-2-month-old-from-life-support

This baby was removed from artificial life support today and passed away naturally. Rest in peace in Heaven with the angels. So sad for the mom, but thank God this was not allowed to turn into the Jahi McMath drama.

 

[al66pine]

- It's déjà vu all over again:

Brain-dead baby focus of mother's court fight
http://www.courier-journal.com/stor...aby-issac-lopez-maintained-machines/12804233/

Quester Thanks for the link.
Dad is charged w injury to 2 m/o baby boy, who was declared brain-dead in Louisville KY Kosair Children's Hospital.
Mom's atty argues to ct that Mom is the one entitled to decide about when to cease further care.

"Lopez at first told police he found the boy on the sofa, shaking with his eyes rolled back in his head, according to the arrest report, and he didn't know what happened to him. But then he told police that he hit the child's head on the wall as they left the home, then said he also banged the child's head against the bathtub while bathing him five days before he arrived at the hospital, the arrest report says.He said the baby began crying incessantly, stopped eating and grew lethargic, police said. Lopez said he attempted to take the boy to doctors, but "abandoned efforts because the facilities asked too many questions or they were too far away" from their home on Minors Lane in southern Jefferson County.
"He and the child's mother eventually took the child to Kosair."

".... In addition to the ventilator and feeding tube, he is injected with adrenaline to keep his heart and his blood vessels functioning. He gets hormone infusions to replace those from dying glands. His thyroid, his electrolytes, nearly all natural bodily functions, must now be produced or regulated by medicine and machines."
[per baby's doctor's testimony in ct.]

"But Issac's case is further confused by the criminal aspect: His father, Juan Alejandro Lopez Rosales, is in jail, charged with first-degree criminal abuse. Louisville Metro Police intend to charge him with murder once a death certificate is issued for the baby."
[Coroner said death cert will show DoD as July 2, a few days after baby was admitted to hosp.]. BBM

Is Mom's insistence on continued care, a way to delay or prevent further charges against husband-dad?
Poor little thing, RIP Isaac. Sad, sad, sad story.

Just saying 'continuing care' for the brain-dead can be spurred by different reasons.
To avoid highjacking this thread, I'm starting a thread w Isaac's story in Focus/Spotlight on Children. Thx again, Quester.

 

[wendiesan]

Pie Jesu, Domine, dona eis requiem.
Pie Jesu, Domine, dona eis requiem, sempiternam.

 

[Nore]

Thank you Sallye, this is exactly why I am so against them trying to "bring back" Jahi. They are giving false hope to
people who lose loved ones.I am thankful the mother had sense to take away the life support. I lost a newborn girl many years ago. The thought of her going from my warmth to a grave was unbearable. BUT it had to be done. Yes it hurts but now she plays with the Angels..:loveyou:

 

[K_Z]

Wow-- quite interesting that a donation site for Jahi is still active. I expected it would have been locked, or taken down by now. What is even more interesting is that most of the recent donations (within the last month) are done with a minimal amount, probably so the person donating can have the chance to post comments. There are links to a lot of screen grabs of pics and comments the family has posted on various sites. Oh my. SMH.

The family doesn't appear to be scrubbing these donation comments very frequently, as they do on their FB page.

 

[MyBelle]

Thank you Sallye, this is exactly why I am so against them trying to "bring back" Jahi. They are giving false hope to
people who lose loved ones.I am thankful the mother had sense to take away the life support. I lost a newborn girl many years ago. The thought of her going from my warmth to a grave was unbearable. BUT it had to be done. Yes it hurts but now she plays with the Angels..:loveyou:

Are they giving false hope? Is it impossible that the tests 8-months ago that determined brain death maybe weren't accurate? If she's in a hospital ICU being run by the Catholic church, I think there is a good possibility those tests weren't accurate. Her attorney has said he'd like her to be re-tested.

Dolan said he would now like a re-test........“They said definitively that this young girl’s body will shut down,” Dolan said. “That her organs will fail. That her brain will liquefy and come out of her nose. They told that to the public to justify taking Jahi off life support. That has just not happened. “
http://sanfrancisco.cbslocal.com/20...nd-brain-dead-life-support-christopher-dolan/


JMO