MO - Grief & protests follow shooting of teen Michael Brown #15

[K_Z]

<mod snip>

This was hashed out a bit back. The second MB struck OW it was/is legal. Why bring up slavery anyway?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fleeing_felon_rule

Under U.S. law the fleeing felon rule was limited in 1985 to non-lethal force in most cases by Tennessee v. Garner, 471 U.S. 1. The justices held that deadly force "may not be used unless necessary to prevent the escape and the officer has probable cause to believe that the suspect poses a significant threat of death or serious bodily harm to the officer or others."[2]

<mod snip> An act may be legal, but still not be right or moral. If Missouri gives law enforcement the unrestricted right to shoot at a fleeing felon or even a suspected felon, that law should also be changed.

A more reasonable standard is to restrict the use of lethal force to situations where the suspect poses an immediate threat of death or severe injury.

So will this case be decided upon what the law should be or what the law is?

Once Brown has disengaged from Wilson and started to flee, he no longer poses an immediate threat to officer Wilson. If Brown was armed and shooting back at Wilson, the threat would stll exist.

It doesn't matter, take your problems to the Supremes, they made their decision, it's in my siggie

I think this is going to be a complete non issue very quickly, as the Chief of Police has been stating from the very first press conference that OW was assaulted, and had to be treated in the ER for facial wounds, and that a struggle inside OW's vehicle caused his gun to be discharged.

There is so much direct evidence that MB was shot while approaching OW, and we only have a small amount of what exists. This isn't going to be a big debate about a "fleeing felon", IMO. And I think the interpretation that MB was surrendering is complete baloney manufactured after the fact by racist instigators, and will never hold up under scrutiny. And IMO, the GJ is highly likely to see it that way, too, with a "no true bill".

But the sustained attempts to muddy the waters have been pretty effective in the court of public opinion, IMO!

Because we have MB simultaneously fleeing, multiple reports he was shot in the back, but direct evidence he was NOT shot in the back, facing OW, steadily walking toward OW, bum rushing OW, taking a tiny step toward OW, and collapsing toward OW, all at the same time, with his "movable arms" in just all sorts of confusing positions.

Wouldn't it be very helpful if there is a super secret recording from a security camera that hasn't been leaked yet? I bet OW really wishes he had had one of those new body cameras. JMO.

 

[K_Z]

I was shocked to find out this is now the case. It was not for most of my brothers career in the NYPD. You had to show they were an immediate danger to the commmunity. Because shooting a hail storm of bullets into a densely populated area endangers the public. So, it was a decison you'd have to weigh heavily for public safety issues. It's distressing to think that matters less these days.

Well, I happen to think MB clearly meets the definition of an "immediate danger" to the community. He had just robbed and assaulted 10 min before, then assaulted a LEO inside his patrol vehicle, and struggled over the LEO's gun. That's pretty much an "immediate danger" to me, if I were a jury member.

And OW didn't shoot a "hailstorm of bullets." Somewhere between 6-10 shots, measured and aimed as best as he was able in his head/ face injured situation. And did not empty his weapon. I think he showed remarkable restraint throughout the entire encounter.

Oh-- and letting a violent suspect have a second chance at taking your gun wouldn't be a wise move for the officer, or the bystanders in the immediate area.

 

[CHERIE.T]

MB slimed himself. jmo

agreed

 

[Footwarrior]

Well, I happen to think MB clearly meets the definition of an "immediate danger" to the community. He had just robbed and assaulted 10 min before, then assaulted a LEO inside his patrol vehicle, and struggled over the LEO's gun. That's pretty much an "immediate danger" to me, if I were a jury member.

And OW didn't shoot a "hailstorm of bullets." Somewhere between 6-10 shots, measured and aimed as best as he was able in his head/ face injured situation. And did not empty his weapon. I think he showed remarkable restraint throughout the entire encounter.

Oh-- and letting a violent suspect have a second chance at taking your gun wouldn't be a wise move for the officer, or the bystanders in the immediate area.

The investigators found 12 shell casings at the scene, all matching the type used in Officer Wilson's firearm. Clear evidence that he fired 12 times.

 

[K_Z]

The investigators found 12 shell casings at the scene, all matching the type used in Officer Wilson's firearm. Clear evidence that he fired 12 times.

OK. I don't recall reading that, but I will defer to your memory (is there a conclusive link for that?).

Apparently it took 12 shots to stop the threat. That doesn't change a thing for me. It's not like he kept reloading and shooting once he was down.

Remember, there were "eye witnesses" of OW "standing over" MB's body, continuing to fire. IIRC, DJ was one of the witnesses that made that claim.

 

[tlcya]

In the recording, a quick series of shots can be heard, followed by a pause and then another quick succession of shots.


Forensic audio expert Paul Ginsberg analyzed the recording and said he detected at least 10 gunshots -- a cluster of six, followed by four.

http://readersupportednews.org/news...ichael-brown-shooting-has-reportedly-surfaced

Am googling furiously looking for an article stating that 12 shell casings were found at the scene but coming up empty. Care to share a link Footwarrior, not finding it on my own? Thanks in advance.

 

[CHERIE.T]

He said 3 officers appeared? :waitasec: And then one officer shot MB? :waitasec:

What?

There went his credibility.

 

[Footwarrior]

In the recording, a quick series of shots can be heard, followed by a pause and then another quick succession of shots.


Forensic audio expert Paul Ginsberg analyzed the recording and said he detected at least 10 gunshots -- a cluster of six, followed by four.

http://readersupportednews.org/news...ichael-brown-shooting-has-reportedly-surfaced

Am googling furiously looking for an article stating that 12 shell casings were found at the scene but coming up empty. Care to share a link Footwarrior, not finding it on my own? Thanks in advance.

It was mentioned here:

Twelve shell casings&#8212;all from police weapons&#8212;were recovered at the scene.

http://stlouis.cbslocal.com/2014/08/26/report-alleged-new-audio-of-michael-brown-shooting/

If this is accurate, the remaining two shots were taken before or after the time period captured by the audio recording.

 

[Truthy]

The worker states at the end of his interview with Fox that he didn't think the shooting was justified and would love to hear an explanation of how it could be, so yes, he did state his opinion at the end.

http://fox2now.com/2014/08/12/witnes...rown-was-shot/

Ans not thinking it is justified personally has no bearing on the law, so no worries there.
FWIW, the laws about this have changed, so a lot of people would feel it unjustified under the old rules, and also if they were unaware of the full circumstances. Not morally agreeing with, or even knowing the current laws has no bearing on whether the person is a credible witness. Not sure I understand why people are so eager to dismiss the vast majority of witnesses? MOO.

 

[Truthy]

Well, I happen to think MB clearly meets the definition of an "immediate danger" to the community. He had just robbed and assaulted 10 min before, then assaulted a LEO inside his patrol vehicle, and struggled over the LEO's gun. That's pretty much an "immediate danger" to me, if I were a jury member.

And OW didn't shoot a "hailstorm of bullets." Somewhere between 6-10 shots, measured and aimed as best as he was able in his head/ face injured situation. And did not empty his weapon. I think he showed remarkable restraint throughout the entire encounter.

Oh-- and letting a violent suspect have a second chance at taking your gun wouldn't be a wise move for the officer, or the bystanders in the immediate area.

Twelve shots- so maybe 6 misses. Loads of ground floor apartments around, they are lucky he did not hit a bystander as well at that rate.
IMHO, that shows a reckless disregard for the community he was supposed to be protecting. MB was stopped for shoplifitng, not for hurting anyone.
It all hinges on what happened in tha car, and we will all know better after forensics and hopefully more witness statements come in. Till then, I reserve judgement. And not dismiss witnesses becuase they do not suit my narrative.
MOO.

 

[Sonya610]

Forensic audio expert Paul Ginsberg analyzed the recording and said he detected at least 10 gunshots -- a cluster of six, followed by four.

Don't forget the shot in the car, that wasn't on the audio but was at the scene, so that is at least 11.

 

[tlcya]

It was mentioned here:



http://stlouis.cbslocal.com/2014/08/26/report-alleged-new-audio-of-michael-brown-shooting/

If this is accurate, the remaining two shots were taken before or after the time period captured by the audio recording.

twelve casings all from police weapons (plural)? unusual wording. Not clear that all were from one police weapon, that of ODW. Wonder why they opted to word it that way. I can only assume that they either did not all come from ODW's weapon or that had yet to be established at the time of publication.

 

[Linda7NJ]

Twelve shots- so maybe 6 misses. Loads of ground floor apartments around, they are lucky he did not hit a bystander as well at that rate.
IMHO, that shows a reckless disregard for the community he was supposed to be protecting. MB was stopped for shoplifitng, not for hurting anyone.
It all hinges on what happened in tha car, and we will all know better after forensics and hopefully more witness statements come in. Till then, I reserve judgement. And not dismiss witnesses becuase they do not suit my narrative.
MOO.

Link that dispatch categorized the incident with the shopkeeper as "shoplifting" please






Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Footwarrior]

twelve casings all from police weapons (plural)? unusual wording. Not clear that all were from one police weapon, that of ODW. Wonder why they opted to word it that way. I can only assume that they either did not all come from ODW's weapon or that had yet to be established at the time of publication.

You are trying to read too much into a word choice. Police weapons use a certain type of cartridge. The ones found at the scene were all consistent with police weapons. It is a good assumption that they all came from Wilson's firearm, because he is the only person that is known to have discharged his weapon.

It might be interesting to look over the available photos and see if we can spot the cartridges.

 

[popsicle]

You are trying to read too much into a word choice. Police weapons use a certain type of cartridge. The ones found at the scene were all consistent with police weapons. It is a good assumption that they all came from Wilson's firearm, because he is the only person that is known to have discharged his weapon.

It might be interesting to look over the available photos and see if we can spot the cartridges.

Let us know what you find.

eta I don't mean that in a snarky way just that we have looked at every pic we can find trying to see as much detail as possible. One thing I have noticed is a lack of evidence markers like one usually sees. jmo

 

[CoolJ]

Ans not thinking it is justified personally has no bearing on the law, so no worries there.
FWIW, the laws about this have changed, so a lot of people would feel it unjustified under the old rules, and also if they were unaware of the full circumstances. Not morally agreeing with, or even knowing the current laws has no bearing on whether the person is a credible witness. Not sure I understand why people are so eager to dismiss the vast majority of witnesses? MOO.

BBM

This is something that confuses me as well. We have numerous witnesses to this incident. Almost all of which have stated that MB was shot while running away. Yet, those in support of FPD version of events (even though there are no witnesses to this side of the story) immediately pick apart each of the witnesses statements without fail. Why is it so hard for people to believe MB was shot while his back was towards OW? I don't get it.

 

[Oceans]

Ya know...I keep thinking about MBs religious ramblings. I am religious and I get the belief in a power greater than ourselves and in spirituality, etc... But I think there is a fine line between being a person of faith and going to church, praying, preaching the word of God, etc... However, I also believe there is a fine line between acting as a person of faith and acting like a delusional person in an altered-state, as is quite apparent from what the worker stated. We have quotes about MBs talking about seeing angels in the sky at 1:30 in the morning, him talking about having a sense of impending doom or "bad vibes" and apparently partaking in a "rambling" conversation with someone who cussed. We know that MB doesn't have a problem with cussing and even with violent words, based on his lyrics.

So what was going on inside of MBs head that day? We have no indications that what was going on inside of OWs head that day had anything to do with being on drugs, prior instances of racist behavior, etc... I would imagine that the parents from the sick child call will probably describe him as calm, perhaps friendly and I might guess from a commended LEO with a perfectly clean record, likely supportive, comforting and understanding.

But with MB, we have lots of information to support a theory that MB was not "in his right mind" that day. He talked about "bad vibes" and rambled about religion and counseled someone he didn't know about being "chill." Then he went and stole cigars and roughed up the much smaller store owner. Then he didn't listen to OW and apparently assaulted him. We now know he at the bare minimum had pot in his system.

So the totality of these circumstances still leads me to lean much more toward one of the parties not acting "right" and the other party acting pretty much like any other LEO would act given the situation at hand at that moment.

I would even take it further, that MB's strange behavior went one for a longer period of time, weeks, many months, maybe even years, IMO.

I'm wondering if MB suffered from depressions for quite some time? Possibly even suicide thoughts? Some of his lyrics or his instagram messages are quite chilling. Or his post of FB just days before he died and the talk about Jesus:

'If I leave this earth today, at least you'll know I care about others more than my damn self'

Friends said the post was 'typical' of Michael Brown

Picture 6: God fearing: Pastor Charles Ewing, left, is Michael's uncle. He said that his nephew (pictured as a baby with his mother, right) had recently 'received Jesus' to the delight of his grandmother.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...en-days-shot-cop-sparking-St-Louis-riots.html

From his Instagram (link is not allowed to post):



REAL= getting killed for being something in life
FAKE= movie star with make up
12:06 AM - 17 Jul 2013

Very chilling, IMO, it that soundcloud. IMO, MB looks so depressed in this picture, his eyes are so empty and lifeless, IMO. I'm not sure if I understood the text right, is he really talking about "body bag"?

Body Baq Big'Mike Ft. Two Cupz

LE is also asking what lead up to this incident?

IMO, Dorian Johnson has the answer. He was hanging out with MB for days, IIRC, and would be able to tell in which mood MB was, what he was talking about, what his mindset was.

This might be even the reason why DJ is in federal custody?

And the events on that day when MB died. IMO, he was very provocative in the store like he did not care when he was caught stealing those cigars, he was also very provocative walking in the middle of the street with the stolen items, he was very provocative interacting with ODW, pushing and punching him. And when he kept coming back at ODW, he just kept coming as if he was "on something". MB was on marijuana but did he as well have a death wish? The person who was only heard on the audio could not believe why MB kept coming at the officer! Even after a number of shots had been fired. He just kept running!

Those are just my thoughts and my opinion.

 

[Elley Mae]

You are trying to read too much into a word choice. Police weapons use a certain type of cartridge. The ones found at the scene were all consistent with police weapons. It is a good assumption that they all came from Wilson's firearm, because he is the only person that is known to have discharged his weapon.

It might be interesting to look over the available photos and see if we can spot the cartridges.

bbm, what does this mean?

 

[katydid23]

Wow, fits the basics of what the majority of witnesses have said so far. Shot toward his back at first. No bum rush.

The bum rush already happened, at the very start of the incident. The bum rush happened when, imo, MB shoved OW back into the vehiicle and began punching him in the face. Then they grappled over the gun, and MB's fate was sealed.

Because of that initial 'bum rush', OW had the legal right to use lethal force to stop the escaping suspect, imo.

And the shot at the back was NOT the first shot. The first shot went off in the vehicle when they struggled over the gun.

 

[Elley Mae]

Did I read/see that there was gun fire in the area just after this happened before LE was finished with the area.