ID - DeOrr Kunz Jr, 2, Timber Creek Campground, 10 July 2015 - #4

[shellbythesea]

Ah. Got it.

To me, that would imply they think someone they know abducted their child. Otherwise, it would be unknown how much he means to them. It could be assumed but not known.

I also wanted to say about the store trip and people thinking it was the night before. I've discounted that simply because it was reported that they traveled to this campground on Friday 7/10. That's what was reported, but I don't believe we have heard this from JM and DK. Have we? Have they stated in an interview or been quoted in msm that they left their home and traveled to the campground on Friday?

And would someone with dimentia (that has been suggested) be clear if something happened that day or the day before?

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[Jules71]

The reporter needed to ask if little Deorr was filthy and bawling when they took him to the store. He needed to ask what time they visited the store. He needed to ask if they all went into the store or if anyone stayed in the vehicle. And he needed to ask if they thought this could be a valid sighting of their missing and possibly abducted child. And finally, how the clerk could mistake the time by 5+ hours.

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[ClaireNC]

They suspended the search for Deorr on the 13th, only 3 days after he was reported missing. The 2 Jacksonville teens disappeared on Friday, in the Atlantic ocean and the Coast Guard has not called off the search(still considered a rescue effort), from the southern florida coast all the way to the south carolina coastal area.
This leads me to believe that LE knows that DeOrr Jr. is nowhere at that campsite. Unless he is in the reservoir, which looks murky and not clear (dad stated in the interview it was clear). But divers have looked and didn't find anything. Slideshow of the general area of the campsite and reservoir:

http://www.ktvb.com/picture-gallery/news/local/2015/07/13/missing-toddler/30075461/

They did not call off the search on the 13th. They called off the volunteer search and closed it to professionals only. LE and the experts continued an intensive search for another week. I believe the formal search lasted 10 days.

Thanks for the link to the picture gallery. I added it to the timeline and media thread.

 

[wondering25]

I agree. I got 39 minutes for 9.9 miles, from Leadore Stage Stop to Stone Reservoir. I doubt there is much traffic there...

unpaved windy bumpy road with pot holes and rocks and this was a pickup truck not an all terrain vehicle.. and maybe old vehicle with lousy shock absorbers ..just an idea..

 

[skinnycat]

They suspended the search for Deorr on the 13th, only 3 days after he was reported missing. The 2 Jacksonville teens disappeared on Friday, in the Atlantic ocean and the Coast Guard has not called off the search(still considered a rescue effort), from the southern florida coast all the way to the south carolina coastal area.
This leads me to believe that LE knows that DeOrr Jr. is nowhere at that campsite. Unless he is in the reservoir, which looks murky and not clear (dad stated in the interview it was clear). But divers have looked and didn't find anything. Slideshow of the general area of the campsite and reservoir:

http://www.ktvb.com/picture-gallery/news/local/2015/07/13/missing-toddler/30075461/

I've kinda been thinking that the LE has had his sights on someone from the very start, but he still needed to conduct a proper wilderness search for a missing child, beings there was no signs of a crime at the camp site, just in case his hunch was wrong

 

[pepelepolecat]

Excellent observation!

I may be an idiot, but I don't understand the importance of what she said...

It sounds (to me) as though she has someone specific in mind -- as though maybe she has strong suspicions about someone's involvement.

 

[SleuthMom]

And would someone with dimentia (that has been suggested) be clear if something happened that day or the day before?

IF LE ruled out great-grandpa from the beginning of the investigation due to his health condition (physical and mental) and since we do not know exactly the extent of the condition and the impairments associated with it, one has to assume whether it was that day or the day before he would sill be ruled out.

 

[SleuthMom]

I have a question about being a person of interest. I'm no expert by far, but the only time I've seen people referred to in this way is if LE desires to speak with them but is unable to for whatever reason. Am I incorrect? Are the parents still speaking with LE?

As far as we know, the parents have been cooperative and I never heard that people referred to POI when LE desires to speak with them but they are unable to do for whatever reason.

It has been my understanding and experience abroad (not sure how it is in the US) that when LE label someone as a POI usually means they are not completely cleared out and they do not have enough information/evidence at this time to detain them/charge them with any crime. Usually, later on they either drop the label and clear them out completely or the label is changed to "suspect".

 

[Elle*Bee]

"Especially knowing how much he means to us."

Are you implying that whomever may have taken or harmed Deorr knows the parents?

I'll admit when mom asked [paraphrasing] who would harm "us", especially know how much he means to "us" -- it sounded personal to me. My hinky meter went off right away. A stranger abduction isn't about harming the parents, IMO, but rather acquiring the target (the abductee). A stranger wouldn't know (or likely care) "how much he means to us." Perhaps I'm reading too much into it...

On an unrelated note, IMO the lack of the parents' presence on social media isn't particularly worrisome to me since it seems like LE feels abduction is unlikely. Maybe the parents realize that now so there's no need to ask the public to keep an eye out for the child, DeOrr. (Not suggesting the parents are involved in his disappearance.).

 

[carbuff]

If Deorr was indeed going down for his nap, that might explain why the parents were comfortable leaving him for a few minutes. He might have been lying on the truck seat with his blanket and his toy, sleepily dozing off, so all IR and GGpa had to do was keep an eye on the door to see when he woke up. And when they (probably GGpa) went over to check on him, and he wasn't there--well, thinking "I guess they took him with them" probably really means, "Damn I hope they took him with them."

 

[Jules71]

Again, I am frustrated by the lack of new info and progress in this case. I really don't think I can handle years of not knowing the fate of this little guy - like Lindsey Baum and Kyron Horman.

My main concerns at this time are:

No one's account of the friend in the beginning. (Does ggpa even know this is his 'friend'? Kinda kidding, but not.)

The "rumor" of the store trip at 6 pm.

The EMT bag that was brought up but not discussed for fear it would be twisted.

No scent trail by the dogs.

No trace found after exhaustive searches.

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[rkf]

I know when I go camping down in the keys my car is generally too packed with supplies to fit anything else beside me my bf and kids. Every time I go I go to my spot set up tents etc and then we go get groceries and charcoal and anything else we forgot. In the keys camping at a state park it's about forty five minutes to the closest store. We still don't know if they were using tents or a camper right? However even when I've taken my pop-up I've still ran into aforementioned situation!

In the Nancy Grace show, the host (not NG) said the family was camping in a tent near the search scene. Not even sure if that's accurate and/or if they initially planned to use a tent.

 

[slashkiss]

I'm more confused why you would bring an elderly grandfather with dementia (as is being suggested) and other health conditions camping in the first place. Further I don't know why any parent would leave such an individual in charge of a 2 year old in any situation much less at a campsite next to water. My only thought is they believed it would be okay because the other individual was there; however they don't mention him at all.

I just find myself more and more confused by the facts and timeline with this case. A baby is missing and I would think the timeline and basic facts prior to the disappearance would be important for the public to know if they are going to assist in any way with locating the child. Perhaps LE has a very detailed timeline and has all of the facts sorted out but I don't see the point in keeping those hidden from the public if they believe there is no foul play.

I know I am not typical as I spend far too many hours on this forum; however I know the first thing I would do in the event a loved one was missing was to write down every last detail I could remember about the events leading up to the disappearance and I would make sure everyone that was involved/around did the same so that LE and the public would have the most accurate information available to utilize.

 

[Jules71]

IF LE ruled out great-grandpa from the beginning of the investigation due to his health condition (physical and mental) and since we do not know exactly the extent of the condition and the impairments associated with it, one has to assume whether it was that day or the day before he would sill be ruled out.

Sorry I wasn't clear. What I meant was would ggpa know if a certain thing happened on Thurs or if it happened on Friday. I was asking if they could have come camping on Thursday and the store sighting at 6 was correct but the day before. We've not heard or read the parents state which day they arrived. It was reported they traveled to the campground on Friday, but is that accurate? We know reporters don't always get the facts straight.

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[rkf]

So, what time did they get there and realize they needed things..1pm? then drove for 40 mins got the things then drove back? that would make it 220 pm. Or did they arrive in the morning then get in the car and go to the store at some other time. To get there and turn around and go back seems nutty. OR DID THEY ARRIVE THE NIGHT BEFORE? Thus 6 pm sighting in store? Was JM taking both grandpa and IR there and being paid? Perhaps grandpa and IR are in adult day care or something? I dont see the bond between a sick elderly man and IR unless they both are in some kind of adult day care setting.. jmo

Oh, wow. Now I feel really bad about my rant. :blushing:

 

[bluesneakers]

I do find that omission intriguing. I also wondered when viewing the photos yesterday, why there are not four, but three chairs around the campfire - one double chair, and one single chair. http://www.ktvb.com/picture-gallery/news/local/2015/07/13/missing-toddler/30075461/

Whoa, that looks a lot different from what's been described earlier.

eta: Oops. Because it's a different site. Nevermind.

 

[bluesneakers]

Has the bike been named an O.O.I. ? (Object of Interest)

No sleuthing of inanimate objects unless they have been named as a suspect by LE.

View attachment 79036

I don't know... that bike looks pretty shady to me.

 

[rkf]

Snipped by me

Further thought along the same line as I am catching up with posts this morning....

The dad specifically says about the store visit - we went there as a family.

Why would someone specifically say that unless there were non-family member also at the campsite? If it were only the parents, child, and g-grandpa, you wouldn't need to specify you went to the store "as a family" because everyone is family. It's apparent from dad's story that IR did not go to the store with the others.

I'm wondering if our friend IR wasn't around the campsite when the family returned. The parents went exploring, DeOrr and G-GP stayed at the campsite...and friend IR appeared back at the site later. When did he reappear??

Just a possibility to consider as we look at all possibilities.

I thought when DK said "as a family" he was making sure everyone knew the three of them were together. I also think he has received a little bit of media coaching, to ensure he uses phrases like "my son", etc., to make them come across as sympathetic (not in a negative way - as a way to engage the public.) JMO

 

[skinnycat]

I wonder if the LE had heard the 911 calls from both parents before he arrived on the scene, why hasn't the dad's call ever been released, why release the mom's 911 call why not the dad's, they talked to different operators there should be 2 recordings

 

[rkf]

I've watched the interview with the parents about 8 or 10 times already. They seem steadfast that he was abducted from the campsite. The person in the background that keeps bringing up the EMT bag is largely forgotten about by the end of the interview. The topic is never discussed. I assume the parents must think it doesn't have any relevance, or not much anyway, although dad does state early on "We'll get to that in a minute". If the EMT bag had some sort of major significance, I would think they would've addressed right from the start.

As far as the abduction theory, it sounds way out there to me, but if it turns out to be factual, I would say the store clerks sighting at 6 p.m. that evening was the actual abductor himself with Deorr in tow.
Him driving a black truck was a sheer coincidence. That may be part of the investigation that they are looking further into. For instance, LE may be pulling all the surveillance camera footage they can find within 40-50 miles of that store in order to see if they can capture a black truck on camera driving through the area around the 6 p.m. sighting time.

As remote as the area is, I highly doubt there are a whole bunch of cameras set up between Leadore and the campsite, but they might get lucky. The more different roads and routes there are, the longer it will take them to round up all of the videos, if there are any. It's going to take time, obviously.

LE has been very quiet lately, but if that is the direction the case is going, you would think they would broadcast publicly that they are seeking out any video footage or game camera footage that might be available from that day, supplied by local residents and businesses along the different routes to the camping area.

Of course my initial reaction to this case was that Deorr wandered off and got lost. I'm still leaning that way, but I'll admit I'm perplexed by all the searching that has turned up nothing. I would normally roll my eyes and smirk a little bit when law enforcement claims to have conducted an "exhaustive search", because of all of the prior cases that were discussed in earlier threads in regards to that. This time however, I think they probably HAVE done an exhaustive search, and still came up empty.

How someone could manage to infiltrate a fairly flat campground in broad daylight, snatch up a child while two grown adults are standing a few feet away, without being seen coming or going , is beyond me.
Also, they stated they neither heard or saw any vehicles during this time frame. A moving vehicle creates a lot of dust on a dirt road, not to mention a lot of noise.

I had the exact opposite impression from the interview. It seems like JM believes (or wants to believe) that little DeOrr has been abducted, but even though DK talks about that as a possibility, he keeps going back to "and if that's not the case" or something like that. It feels like he's not really committed to the abduction idea. JMO