Australia Claremont Serial Killer, 1996 - 1997, Perth, Western Australia - #3

[papertrail]

What is the timeline here?

From the Post, Two new clues to serial killer, Dec 12, 2015:

In addition, fibers found on Jane Rimmer's naked body in 1996 that were "lost" and then rediscovered in 2011 were found to match the upholstery of a Holden VS Commodore, which was near-new at the time she was abducted...

...Fifty fibers lifted with adhesive tape from Jane Rimmer's body lay in a file until 2004 when [the Schramm Review] discovered that the fibers had never been tested against other crimes or vehicles...Detective Schramm described the discovery as exciting...

...Two years later [from 2008/2009], the untested fibers were re-discovered when the Chemistry Centre moved buildings.

If this is a true version of events, then MACRO ignored the fibers from 1996-2004. The Schramm Review came in, and in 2004, made the "exciting discovery". Then, before the fibers can be tested, MACRO misplaces the evidence for seven years. The fibers are finally tested in 2011 and conclusively narrow down the type of vehicle used to dispose of Jane's body. That info is released in 2015.

Can other posters re-read the article and tell me if I'm misunderstanding the timeline? I must be.

http://postnewspapers.com.au/editions/20151205/pdf/paper.pdf

And how does John's comment made in 2007, fit in?

http://blogs.theaustralian.news.com...an/comments/uk_link_in_wa_serial_murders/P75/

MACRO didn't misplace the forensic tape lift samples, the testing lab did.

You also need to understand how many chiefs and indians MACRO went through, and how many CHIEFS major crime went through in the time in between 1996 and 2011 and above all, how many COMMANDER CHIEFS the police went through during that period.

We should be asking the question: who was in charge of MACRO when the Schramm review was conducted ? Who was in charge of MACRO when the Schramm review findings were finalized ? and Who was put in charge of following up the Schramm recommendations ?

There were also quite a few further reviews after Schramm, so why didn't they pick up that the JR forensics had not been examined.

Strange that the re-find of the lost 50 JR sample tapes coincided with Macro's hunting out printers and the washing line rope / cord / wire.

This article I posted the other day dated 3/12/2004 was the 1st article that had any information about the 'new find' by the Schramm review. http://www.abc.net.au/pm/content/2004/s1257731.htm

I also think that new advances in forensic technology should be a major consideration. Perhaps the forensics were tested, no results, no newspaper coverage. Then wella, new forensic analysis that hone in on the tiniest of tinest molecules got the hit they had been waiting for.

I've been thinking about the socalled DNA link between Rowe Park and CG. If that DNA is not seminal, but from hair or skin or blood, could it be that that the vehicle used in the Rowe Park rape, and the vehicle driven in connection to the CG abduction / murder have contained the DNA material ie hair, skin, blood; and both vehicles had been 'borrowed' by the perp from an unsuspecting mate or employer and it's not the perp's DNA but material transferred onto CG -- this could be an intentional ploy by the perp.

 

[papertrail]

This website contains copious articles re DNA frailties and the dates of the articles may show what police were confronted with in 2008 and beforehand. Professor Moles that runs the website is most highly respected and advises Governments on many law matters.

http://netk.net.au/DNAHome.asp

 

[Sutton]

hahaha

The specs article stated that the Berlina had specific VELOUR upholstery relative to that model only; Bret's article stated that the fibres found on forensic lift tapes were relative to a particular model of Holden VS series 1 Commodore, and the Berlina is one of that particular model branded with the name Berlina.

You've admitted to being the person who started up the Testra discussion, and from what I've read that started many many years ago so how many threads have you derailed with your theories.

End of story

That means it definitely could have been a Berlina. But it doesn't rule out a Calais. The Calais could have had upholstery specific to only that year/make/model. Is this correct?

I don't think 88mph started the original speculation about Telstra. I think he or she was suggesting that Telstra was given credence because of the mention of phone line used to bind the Karrakatta victim.

88mph, is this correct? I am pretty sure there is a different source for the Telstra suspect, and he was/is probably a legitimate suspect.

 

[elastic]

MACRO didn't misplace the forensic tape lift samples, the testing lab did.

You also need to understand how many chiefs and indians MACRO went through, and how many CHIEFS major crime went through in the time in between 1996 and 2011 and above all, how many COMMANDER CHIEFS the police went through during that period.

We should be asking the question: who was in charge of MACRO when the Schramm review was conducted ? Who was in charge of MACRO when the Schramm review findings were finalized ? and Who was put in charge of following up the Schramm recommendations ?

There were also quite a few further reviews after Schramm, so why didn't they pick up that the JR forensics had not been examined.

Strange that the re-find of the lost 50 JR sample tapes coincided with Macro's hunting out printers and the washing line rope / cord / wire.

This article I posted the other day dated 3/12/2004 was the 1st article that had any information about the 'new find' by the Schramm review. http://www.abc.net.au/pm/content/2004/s1257731.htm

I also think that new advances in forensic technology should be a major consideration. Perhaps the forensics were tested, no results, no newspaper coverage. Then wella, new forensic analysis that hone in on the tiniest of tinest molecules got the hit they had been waiting for.

I've been thinking about the socalled DNA link between Rowe Park and CG. If that DNA is not seminal, but from hair or skin or blood, could it be that that the vehicle used in the Rowe Park rape, and the vehicle driven in connection to the CG abduction / murder have contained the DNA material ie hair, skin, blood; and both vehicles had been 'borrowed' by the perp from an unsuspecting mate or employer and it's not the perp's DNA but material transferred onto CG -- this could be an intentional ploy by the perp.

That is a very real possibility. It may not even be an intentionally ploy, maybe borrowing the car is an intentional ploy to throw the Police off, however the transfer of DNA is just a consequence of that. Unintentional but has had a significant bearing now on the case. Maybe one of the current POI is involved and the DNA just doesnt match because of exactly what you outlined above, or another possibility having a similar outcome by transferring the DNA.

It could very well be that the killer borrowed the vehicle off of a friend, and that friend may have even borrowed the vehicle himself, and then the vehicle is used and because it is unlikely that the person who lent the vehicle would ever get into enough trouble and have to give a DNA sample to the Police then the likely hood of them ever finding the real owner of the DNA sample is next to zero if they are a regular law abiding citizen.

Seeing you are hot on the Lance theory, maybe the best friend is the rapist, or car owner, or the best friend borrowed the vehicle/s from his parents, or just took them out at night (Maybe even after 'drugging' his own parents so they wouldn't wake up, thus know the vehicle was ever taken). Lance is someone dependent on his own parents, maybe his mate was also very parent dependent and had access to alot of his parents equipment/vehicles. Some people very much fit this sterotype. The DNA may just be someone totally unrelated, and thus will never be known, whilst the true killer laughs having never sat in the back seat of this vehicle and only ever having driven it.

Also if the killer is the 1989 rapist he could not have driven a VS commodore, but it may very well have been an early model station wagon commodore, then a panel van, then a VS Series 1 Commodore White (possible Station Wagon). Why would he need the tail gate, well it is probably easier to bungle his victims into the back?

 

[88mph]

hahaha

The specs article stated that the Berlina had specific VELOUR upholstery relative to that model only; Bret's article stated that the fibres found on forensic lift tapes were relative to a particular model of Holden VS series 1 Commodore, and the Berlina is one of that particular model branded with the name Berlina.

You've admitted to being the person who started up the Testra discussion, and from what I've read that started many many years ago so how many threads have you derailed with your theories.

End of story

Are you trolling? I'll break it down for you one more time:

The specs article stated that the Berlina had specific VELOUR upholstery relative to that model only; AGREE

Bret's article stated that the fibres found on forensic lift tapes were relative to a particular model of Holden VS series 1 Commodore: Somewhat agree, article states "Match the upholstery of a Holden VS Commodore"

and the Berlina is one of that particular model branded with the name Berlina: AGREE

What I'm saying and have been trying to say is that it could have been both a Commodore or Berlina, the upholstery in the base model Commodore would have been specific too.

Can we agree that it could have been Commodore or Berlina for the sake of avoiding tunnel vision?

On the Telstra bit, I've never mentioned that before - read all of my posts on BigFooty.

 

[88mph]

That means it definitely could have been a Berlina. But it doesn't rule out a Calais. The Calais could have had upholstery specific to only that year/make/model. Is this correct?

I don't think 88mph started the original speculation about Telstra. I think he or she was suggesting that Telstra was given credence because of the mention of phone line used to bind the Karrakatta victim.

88mph, is this correct? I am pretty sure there is a different source for the Telstra suspect, and he was/is probably a legitimate suspect.

Correct, I've never mentioned Telstra before and I was going off the clothesline/phone cord - which has now been debunked by papertrail.

The fact that the car is believed to be a wagon rules out the Calais.

 

[Sutton]

MACRO didn't misplace the forensic tape lift samples, the testing lab did.

You also need to understand how many chiefs and indians MACRO went through, and how many CHIEFS major crime went through in the time in between 1996 and 2011 and above all, how many COMMANDER CHIEFS the police went through during that period.

We should be asking the question: who was in charge of MACRO when the Schramm review was conducted ? Who was in charge of MACRO when the Schramm review findings were finalized ? and Who was put in charge of following up the Schramm recommendations ?

There were also quite a few further reviews after Schramm, so why didn't they pick up that the JR forensics had not been examined.

Strange that the re-find of the lost 50 JR sample tapes coincided with Macro's hunting out printers and the washing line rope / cord / wire.

This article I posted the other day dated 3/12/2004 was the 1st article that had any information about the 'new find' by the Schramm review. http://www.abc.net.au/pm/content/2004/s1257731.htm

I also think that new advances in forensic technology should be a major consideration. Perhaps the forensics were tested, no results, no newspaper coverage. Then wella, new forensic analysis that hone in on the tiniest of tinest molecules got the hit they had been waiting for.

I've been thinking about the socalled DNA link between Rowe Park and CG. If that DNA is not seminal, but from hair or skin or blood, could it be that that the vehicle used in the Rowe Park rape, and the vehicle driven in connection to the CG abduction / murder have contained the DNA material ie hair, skin, blood; and both vehicles had been 'borrowed' by the perp from an unsuspecting mate or employer and it's not the perp's DNA but material transferred onto CG -- this could be an intentional ploy by the perp.

Macro had not solved the case. The Schramm team went in and found a huge clue. And the lab misplaced it?

Meanwhile, John, on Gary Hughes' blog, refers to the adhesive tape as a "hit".

Change of leadership is irrelevant. The story doesn't make sense.

IMO, the other reviews did not find the overlooked evidence because the were not allowed access to all the info, as charged by Robin Nappier.

 

[enzeder]

What is the timeline here?

From the Post, Two new clues to serial killer, Dec 12, 2015:

In addition, fibers found on Jane Rimmer's naked body in 1996 that were "lost" and then rediscovered in 2011 were found to match the upholstery of a Holden VS Commodore, which was near-new at the time she was abducted...

...Fifty fibers lifted with adhesive tape from Jane Rimmer's body lay in a file until 2004 when [the Schramm Review] discovered that the fibers had never been tested against other crimes or vehicles...Detective Schramm described the discovery as exciting...

...Two years later [from 2008/2009], the untested fibers were re-discovered when the Chemistry Centre moved buildings.

If this is a true version of events, then MACRO ignored the fibers from 1996-2004. The Schramm Review came in, and in 2004, made the "exciting discovery". Then, before the fibers can be tested, MACRO misplaces the evidence for seven years. The fibers are finally tested in 2011 and conclusively narrow down the type of vehicle used to dispose of Jane's body. That info is released in 2015.

Can other posters re-read the article and tell me if I'm misunderstanding the timeline? I must be.

http://postnewspapers.com.au/editions/20151205/pdf/paper.pdf

And how does John's comment made in 2007, fit in?

http://blogs.theaustralian.news.com...an/comments/uk_link_in_wa_serial_murders/P75/

BBM ^ I read those details over and over when the article was first published and came to the same conclusion that you did Sutton. Just read them again and you, as well as myself, are understanding the timeline correctly imo.

Relevant screen shots from article at the below link.

December 5, 2015 - Two new clues to serial killer By BRET CHRISTIAN
http://postnewspapers.com.au/editions/20151205/pdf/paper.pdf

 

[enzeder]

Dave Barclay Interview
Read more: http://www.abc.net.au/austory/content/2006/s1704843.htm

PROGRAM TRANSCRIPT: Thursday, 3 August , 2006

I've been to Australia 2 or 3 times. I've assisted in reviewing some cases in Canberra and also I was over here about 15 months ago in Perth, helping with a review of the Claremont killings.

As far as the Claremont killings go, they were over quite a long period of time and they also were a few years ago. So what happened at the start of those analyses doesn't really represent what goes on now. They developed in a kind of sequential way. When we're doing the review, of course, we're looking at everything. And what I think was particularly good about it was that nearly all the physical items were still there and intact and able to be analysed again which is part of the review process. But I was slightly concerned about the way forensic science in Western Australia was actually organised. Not so much the individual scientists, but they weren't integrated as closely with the investigative process as they are now in the UK and perhaps are beginning to be in the United States.

It's a system which has opportunities therefore for things to get missed. For observations to be made in one lab, which are very trivial, but are very important to another laboratory or to the investigators. And because it involves work at different laboratories, it's very difficult to get those threads knotted together in Western Australia.

[...]

One of the essentials of any reviewer, physical items reviewer is that you should be able to track down every single item that was taken all the way through the process, to the lab, back, to their finger print unit and back and so on. And because what we're particularly looking at is doing new tests on things that weren't already done. But also doing completely unregarded items. They may have taken the best items from a drawer for analysis and they've gone off to the lab and it's been forgotten that there are lots of other items in that drawer which might have also been touched by the offender. So a key thing is this exhibit tracking. And in the UK now that's pretty good. I know it wasn't good 10 years ago. And I don't think it's very good in Western Australia. I hope they're addressing that.

 

[Bartholemeus]

BBM ^ I read those details over and over when the article was first published and came to the same conclusion that you did Sutton. Just read them again and you, as well as myself, are understanding the timeline correctly imo.

Relevant screen shots from article at the below link.

December 5, 2015 - Two new clues to serial killer By BRET CHRISTIAN
http://postnewspapers.com.au/editions/20151205/pdf/paper.pdf

Add me in as well. I mentioned this discrepancy in post #419.

Possible explanations;

1. Bret Christian got his facts mixed up
2. Bret Christian got his lies mixed up. i.e the story is a fabrication by police who asked BC to publish it. It doing so he messed it up.

 

[Bartholemeus]

If this is a true version of events, then MACRO ignored the fibers from 1996-2004. The Schramm Review came in, and in 2004, made the "exciting discovery". Then, before the fibers can be tested, MACRO misplaces the evidence for seven years. The fibers are finally tested in 2011 and conclusively narrow down the type of vehicle used to dispose of Jane's body. That info is released in 2015.

So Schramm some in to review the case and then makes a breakthrough in that they find some important evidence....

Then they lose it???????

Seriously, what are the chances? They would have drawn blank after blank so when they did find a lead they would have been all over it. Good breakthrough leads would have been few and far between. As if they would have lost it and/or forgotten about it.

This doesn't add up an why I'm sceptical regarding BC's recent media publications.

 

[Basilisk]

CORRECTION:

I've had a brain meltdown; to damned hot and smokey !

The 1989 attempted rape the girl, the perp was driving a station wagon with tailgate not panel van !

If this is the same perp as the 1995 Rowe Park rape and the CG vehicle and the JR vehicle (if both were Holden Commodore VS station wagons), then he prefers vehicles with tailgates. Why ?

A good reason to prefer a tailgate is if one likes hiking, riding, diving, skiing, trailbike riding etc and needs to change into specialised footwear. The tailgate provides protection from the elements and a handy place to sit when changing gear.

 

[papertrail]

BBM ^ I read those details over and over when the article was first published and came to the same conclusion that you did Sutton. Just read them again and you, as well as myself, are understanding the timeline correctly imo.

Relevant screen shots from article at the below link.

December 5, 2015 - Two new clues to serial killer By BRET CHRISTIAN
http://postnewspapers.com.au/editions/20151205/pdf/paper.pdf

The detail in the 2nd screenshot refers 'to pressure from the ABC's programme Australian Story' aired in 2004. I consider this is that programme that Bret referred to http://www.abc.net.au/austory/content/2003/s1042100.htm.

I think we all know the history of Napper with WA Police, it's not a pretty story. In the above ABC Australian Story programme Napper is on there having a go. Napper has also been mentioned by Bret in recent articles regarding Claremont; they are obviously in communication mode.

I think it is Napper feeding the information to Bret re the DNA links, vehicle etc. I wonder if Napper is 'feeding correct information' or is he just stirring up the hornet's nest that is the WA police service ? Napper was also heavily involved in the recent Rayney battle to prove his (Rayney's) innocence; showing up slack forensic procedures.

 

[papertrail]

Are you trolling? I'll break it down for you one more time:

The specs article stated that the Berlina had specific VELOUR upholstery relative to that model only; AGREE

Bret's article stated that the fibres found on forensic lift tapes were relative to a particular model of Holden VS series 1 Commodore: Somewhat agree, article states "Match the upholstery of a Holden VS Commodore"

and the Berlina is one of that particular model branded with the name Berlina: AGREE

What I'm saying and have been trying to say is that it could have been both a Commodore or Berlina, the upholstery in the base model Commodore would have been specific too.

Can we agree that it could have been Commodore or Berlina for the sake of avoiding tunnel vision?

On the Telstra bit, I've never mentioned that before - read all of my posts on BigFooty.

There was no 'base model Commodore' released in 1995 in the VS series. All models were badged with a 'name'. All models released were known as Holden Commodore -- Berlina, Acclaim, Executive, or Calais. Berlina, Acclaim and Executive came in sedan or wagon models.

I have now found that the Acclaim, in both sedan and wagon versions, had totally different bum-on-seat / head rest upholstery fabric than all the other models. It also appears that the Acclaim upholstery was the same colour in all sedans and wagons, no matter the colour of vehicle.

I have also gone back to year 1994 and forward to 1996 to check all Berlina, Acclaim, Executive and Calais that I can locate online. In all cases, the Berlina, Executive and Calais had very similar fabric -- in that the patterns were similar but colours changed each year, the Acclaim had different fabric; and different from it's 1995 fabric. The Acclaim fabric had a totally different 'more graphically stylized' pattern and the material itself looks different and in all cases was grey.

http://www.carsales.com.au/dealer/details/Holden-Commodore-1995/OAG-AD-12286731/?Cr=4

http://www.carsales.com.au/private/details/Holden-Commodore-1995/SSE-AD-3631758/?Cr=3

 

[papertrail]

BBM ^ I read those details over and over when the article was first published and came to the same conclusion that you did Sutton. Just read them again and you, as well as myself, are understanding the timeline correctly imo.

Relevant screen shots from article at the below link.

December 5, 2015 - Two new clues to serial killer By BRET CHRISTIAN
http://postnewspapers.com.au/editions/20151205/pdf/paper.pdf

Re the 4th (?) attachment which beings...it was not until 2008 and then attachment 5 (?) which begins...2 years later. Am I reading this right that it was not until 2 years after 2008 that makes it 2010 that BC says the Chem Centre moved. Because if that is the case the dates are not connecting. Here is the Chem Centre's history which details they moved in 2009.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ChemCentre

 

[papertrail]

During my online searches I came across a photo that looked familiar. Have a look at the 3 attached images. This is where Bret sourced his photo of the vehicle he said was a VS Holden Commodore Series 1.

Just back from the wheel arch, marked in 3rd attachment, is the word BERLINA. When you open the link, click on the top lefthand photo to open; compare the background in this photo ie garage and garage door, grassed area and items in vehicle to the Post photo -- they are identical.

http://www.wikiwand.com/en/Holden_Commodore#/VS_.281995.E2.80.931997.29

 

[Sutton]

does anybody have any info on romuald zac as far as i can find out he was found hung on the grounds of graylands hospital ,[ he was a patient], on the 21st may 1997 2 mths after the CSK .ended, He [supposedly] worked with CG, his mother swears he was murdered http://dahois.com/www/ romuald zac murder.com.html

Not to deter from the ongoing Berlina debate, but I think Romuald Zak is worthy of discussion.

IMO, he is not Mystery Man and he was not involved in killing anyone.

It was reported that Romuald worked with Ciara and he knew Jane. But I can't figure out how he knew Jane, when he last saw her, the nature of their relationship, or anything else.

Imagine working somewhere and one co-worker is killed by a serial killer, and two months later another co-worker dies of a very suspicious suicide.

I did read online Ciara had signed Romuald's good-bye card from the law firm, so he may have been a former employee. The strangeness of this depends on if Romuald died of suicide or homicide.

 

[papertrail]

Not to deter from the ongoing Berlina debate, but I think Romuald Zak is worthy of discussion.

IMO, he is not Mystery Man was he not involved in killing anyone.

It was reported that Romuald worked with Ciara and he knew Jane. But I can't figure out how he knew Jane, when he last saw her, the nature of their relationship, or anything else.

Imagine working somewhere and one co-worker is killed by a serial killer, and two months later another co-worker dies of a very suspicious suicide.

I did read online Ciara had signed Romuald's good-bye card from the law firm, so he may have been a former employee. The strangeness of this depends on if Romuald died of suicide or homicide.

As I understand it, Romuald's death was originally classified by WA police as a suicide and the 1st Coroner's inquest also came to that conclusion. A subsequent inquest delivered an 'open finding'.

Romuald was last seen at Graylands Hospital as a patient, on 22 May 1997, and disappeared that afternoon. This date is 347 days from Jane Rimmer's abduction 9 June 1996.

A couple of things I have read recently have prompted me to look closely at the dates LW spent at Graylands.

There is another 'suicide' that occurred after Romuald at Graylands, with the 'victim' found in very similar circumstances. Both Romuald and this 'victim' were found outside the perimeter fenceline.

Attached are 2 photos; hard to believe these are the same guy !

When I first looked at these photos, I though the 1st attachment could show he was MM. 2nd photo is on his gravestone at Karrakatta cemetery. He is buried 2 rows back from Ciara Glennon.

 

[enzeder]

Re the 4th (?) attachment which beings...it was not until 2008 and then attachment 5 (?) which begins...2 years later. Am I reading this right that it was not until 2 years after 2008 that makes it 2010 that BC says the Chem Centre moved. Because if that is the case the dates are not connecting. Here is the Chem Centre's history which details they moved in 2009.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ChemCentre

BBM ^ I agree.

At the link below it says, "ChemCentre moved to the Resources and Chemistry Precinct, Curtin University in Bentley on 8 September 2009"

http://www.parliament.wa.gov.au/pub...e49b53ebc2211048257918002746ab/$file/3914.pdf

 

[Sutton]

...Romuald was last seen at Graylands Hospital as a patient, on 22 May 1997, and disappeared that afternoon. This date is 347 days from Jane Rimmer's abduction 9 June 1996...

RSBM. I must be missing something here. What's the significance of 347 days?