Australia Claremont Serial Killer, 1996 - 1997, Perth, Western Australia - #3

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Ok, so how did Napper get wind of the commodore fibres? Macro and it's incarnations are tight on security. How did he get it and what's his reason for leaking it to BC?

There also the issue of the Schramm Team finding this evidence (a real coup) and then losing this evidence for another 7 years. Honestly, what are the chances of having a major find and then either losing it or forgetting to follow it up?

The Schramm review only uncovered a handful of new leads - they would have been all over them. It's inconceivable that the evidence could have been lost or forgotten about. This to me is just another reason why I think what BC is reporting is questionable and that something else might be at play here.

Did you not read all the documents I linked to in the Napper timeline post ? Napper could well have come across the Rimmer forensics and the outcome of those forensics whilst he held the position at the WA Uni's forensics section or through his close mate Malcolm Boots who is also a UK forensics expert and who participated in the Schramm review.
 
5m? 3m? What's that, a difference of 2m?

From that photo, you can't tell how dense it is to walk 3-5m into. What we do know is 57 days later a woman walked in quite easily to pick some flowers, suggesting that......

....... it was reasonably easy to access the dump spot.

Common sense is a wonderful thing.

But do we know that the killer didn't go back and cut his little path so he could go back and visit really easily therefore the flower picker and her children had more easy access. No we don't but it is a real possibility.
 
Did you not read all the documents I linked to in the Napper timeline post ? Napper could well have come across the Rimmer forensics and the outcome of those forensics whilst he held the position at the WA Uni's forensics section or through his close mate Malcolm Boots who is also a UK forensics expert and who participated in the Schramm review.
No. For the following reasons;

1. You haven't provided a specific and logical case for me to look at. You've just provided a mish mash of links.

2. You have a track record of misinterpreting information. The old 2+2=8. Why would I spend time sifting through a heap of documents when there is a good chance there's absolutely no cause to a reasonable assumption that Napper is the leak/source?

At this stage it's most likely police are feeding BC well thought out information to release. If not, maybe there's a leak (which they have been unable to plug).

Napper was frozen out of the case by police - most likely before the holden fibres evidence was known. Therefore there would have been someone else leaking it to Napper. Which poses the question;

1. Why did that person keep providing Napper info after he realised Napper was leaking it to BC?
2. If it was his mate Boots then surely Napper wouldn't have compromised his mate by leaking information to the press


It's a massive stretch to suggest Napper is the leak. Until you can find me some compelling evidence I'll take the view that he's not the leak. Happy to change my view - just need some compelling reasoning.

I'm having trouble working out how you always interpret the low percentage plays out of any set of evidence? It's not occasionally, it's every single time. Are you even aware that you do this?
 
But do we know that the killer didn't go back and cut his little path so he could go back and visit really easily therefore the flower picker and her children had more easy access. No we don't but it is a real possibility.
Possible but unlikely. I'd suggest his motivation was to keep her concealed for as long as possible and if he could get in there carry a body he could get in there not carrying a body. No reason to make the access any easier.
 
CSK Number

$1.10 - A sole killer
$2.80 - 2 killers
$101 - A group of 3 or more

Everything points to one killer. It's not a done deal that Karra Man and CSK are the same person but there's a

high chance and we know Karra was 1 guy.

Where does the CSK live?

$2.00 - Local to Claremont and surrounds
$3.50 - Local to somewhere else in Perth
$5.00 - Local to somewhere else but was in Perth at the time


Abduction MO

$1.60 - The CSK convinced the girls to get into his car
$2.20 - Blitz attack
$2.50 - The CSK was in a taxi

- I know the media, presumably via the police have lead us down the blitz attack theory path but that's still not the highest likelihood given what we know.
- How do we explain the car that never came forward on the SS abduction night? Let's say that car turned up
- Chatsworth Tce or Dean St to go home. Why didn't the driver come forward?
- What happened to the car seen talking to CG? Why was this info seemingly only released in 2008? This could explain why they never came forward. But even if it wasn't published, that driver would have known he spoke to CG shortly before abduction.
- It seems unlikely the CSK got out of his car to perform a blitz attack and it does seem likely the cars witnessed at the acenes were involved.
- There's possible explanations but they lead to the blitz attack theory not being the most likely.
- There's a good chance the Karra rape and the CSK murders are connected and we know that Karra Man's method was blitz attack.
- Where did JR go? Di she walk along Gugeri St towards her parents' home in Shenton park and get blitzed at Rowe Park?

Murder Method

$1.10 - Throats cut
$3.00 - Strangulation
$101 - Other

Kill Site

$1.85 - Close to the dump sites
$1.85 - Close to the abduction sites
$3.20 - Somewhere in between

- I know the police have stated publicly that they believe the girls were killed soon after abduction and close to the abduction sites but where could have this been? The hot tip is throats were cut. Lots of blood.
- Unlikely to be in a car unless it was a plastic lined boot or van. That means outdoors and somewhere reasonably remote.
- Maybe Karra or a few other places I can think of.
- If near the dump sites, how did he get them there alive? There were no reported ligature marks on hands or feet.

Why the killings Stopped

$2.50 - The CSK knew he was a POI so stopped
$3.00 - He died
$3.00 - He went to prison
$5.00 - He continued but changed his MO considerably
$5.00 - He moved overseas and continued
$10 - He moved interstate and continued

- There's no other murders in Australia that matched so if he continued he either changed MO or moved overseas.
- The likelihood is the CSK is a local man leaving the first 3 options as the most likely.

Mystery Man

$1.40 - Not involved
$3.00 - Involved

- It's more likely that SS and CG were picked up by a vehicle of some description rather than blitz attacked and bundled into a car. JR could have been blitz attacked or could have got into a car. But there's nothing to suggest the CSK was out and about before the murders. The CSK is also highly organised so I don't believe he would have been taking such risks.
- There's also a reasonable explanation as to why he never came forward - because he never knew Macro were looking for him until 2008 and by that time he had already seen how LW had been treated.

DNA

$1.20 - Don't have
$4.00 - Do have

- CG's body was undiscovered for 19 days, JR's 57. They were exposed to wether such as rain and heat. Very hard to get DNA reads under those circumstances
- If they had DNA as early as 2008 then why haven't they found this man? Why haven't the media got wind of a ramped up testing campaign?
- Why is only one media outlet (The Post) talking about it? Others have mentioned it but referenced The Post.
- Why did The Post initially commit to "forensic link" and then a few months later claim the police had DNA?
- If it were true the letters DNA would be on the fron page of every Perth media outlet.

Sadly, from what we know, the likelihood of police having DNA is slim.


Why the recent media coverage through The Post?

$1.80 - SCS have chosen BC to report their strategically devised propaganda with a view to drawing the CSK into a mistake
$1.95 - Stanbury from SCS is on the way out and is making a last ditch effort to solve the case. He uses BC to
float some of the info he has collected in the past 7 years with a view to getting a lead fro the public.
$2.45 - SCS are trying to prevent an coronial inquest so are trying to gice the impression the case is moving
$3.00 - BC has got an insider who is feeding him info and SCS haven't shut the leak down yet.
$7.00 - Rabon Napper is that leak.
$10 - BC is just making stuff up.

POI's

$7 - LW. All depends on DNA. If they have DNA then he is ruled out. If they don't have DNA then he has to be #1 based on known evidence. Biggest questions are, a)How did he get them into his car? b) If the CSK drove a late model Commodore then how did he get access to it?

$10 - Judoman. It would be a colossal coincidence if Judoman wasn't the guy we all think it is. The biggest question is why did he stop? The most likely reason the CSK stopped is because he was a POI. Judo wasn't a POI until well after the murders stopped.

$11 - PW. Had the means to get the girls into his car. It's questionable whether he has an alibi. BC said he did for one of the nights, GreenDevil says that alibi is not true. He wasn't named until 2004 but I believe he was a suspect early in the piece which fits with the "why did the CSK stop" theory

$12 - Someone off the radar. If they have DNA then the top 3 are ruled out and Mr X is number 1 POI. It's almost inconceivable that someone could have avoided being a POI at all, or who is on Macro's list but hasn't yet provided DNA. My main issue with this is that the killings stopped. Why stop when he's off the radar? The other issue is the stories preented to us by the media don't add up.

$15 - Telecom Man. Was identified by police because he had been offering lifts to girls in the area. Not much is known about this guy but he had access to multiple vehicles and it wasn't logged. This could explain a van for Karra and a station wagon for CG.

$15 - PW/SR Combo. Surely SR would have slipped up during his interviews and contradicted himself.

$15 - Taxi Tony. You never know.

$20 - SR. Too dim to pull this off and get away with it.

$50 - The rest. Dixie, Morey, Romuald Rak, Mony Leucas etc
 
Thanks Bart for this good round-up of what is known.

I agree it is unlikely Police have DNA from original CSK suspected victims, or it would have been known sooner. The trail of breadcrumbs, including various interviews with Police also suggest this.

I guess based on chain-of-evidence, circumstantial arguments the Police likely have DNA from Karrakatta and a forensic link (fibres, printing chemicals?) between Karrakatta and JR and/or CG? So may not need DNA directly from CSK victims.

If so, then by your logic :drumroll:its Mr X.
 
Thanks Bart for this good round-up of what is known.

I agree it is unlikely Police have DNA from original CSK suspected victims, or it would have been known sooner. The trail of breadcrumbs, including various interviews with Police also suggest this.

I guess based on chain-of-evidence, circumstantial arguments the Police likely have DNA from Karrakatta and a forensic link (fibres, printing chemicals?) between Karrakatta and JR and/or CG? So may not need DNA directly from CSK victims.

If so, then by your logic :drumroll:its Mr X.
Let's say they have DNA from Karra. That's highly likely I'd say.

But the forensic link - apparently it's the lost fibers.

Here's the problem with the fibres story;

1. JR wasn't discovered for 57 days and during this time was exposed to a lot of rain. She was dumped right next to a creek so any water coming down would have flowed down the creek and passed her on the way. It's highly unlikely any trace would remain after 57 days (I posted an article on this previously)

2. Apparently they lost this evidence, found it again in in the 2004 Schramm Review and then lost it again for another 4 or 7 years or something. It's a very suspicious story. Could be true but equally could not be true.

3. Given the questionable story above coupled with a number of other questionable articles released in the last 18 months it's not a stretch that police are feeding carefully planned incorrect information through the press as part of a strategy. This is not uncommon in such cases.


So by my logic the odds are reasonably accurate. If there is some more credible information about police having a forensic link which emables them to connect Karra to CSK and therefore rule out the main POIs through Karra DNA then those guys are out of the game.

Until then they are still more likely than a random that no one knows.
 
What are your betting odds on:
1) CSK has revisited the dump sites
2) CSK used a 4wd (for papertrail)
3) Location of SS being closer to JR than to CG

4) in thread 2 (post 617), you told Sutton, publicly, a victim had a injury that could have been inflicted by a tool missing from a set belonging to LW.
Can you, given recent developments, provide your betting odds on:
a) reliability of the information; and b) possible tool used

"They also allegedly noticed a tool from a part of a tool set missing that exactly matched injuries that CG sustained"
 
My money is on suspect who shares similarities to Ted Bundy and Gary Ridgeway:
Good Looking (Ted Bundy)
Well educated (Ted Bundy)
Compulsive tendency to rape (Ted Bundy)
Ability to rape without murder (Ted Bundy)
Creative ways to obtain victim's instant trust (Ted Bundy)
Able to have steady relationships (even a true love) [Both]
Extremely Careful in every step (Ridgeway)
Didn't kill if not 'in the right mood'/ if 'conditions' not right (Ridgeway)
Understanding of forensic evicence? (Ridgeway)

*detailed factual insight into Ridgeway about aspects of disposal sites, method of killing etc found here http://murderpedia.org/male.R/images/ridgway_gary/reports/summary.pdf*

Whether he killed more than 3 people? Not sure. Bit hard to do in Claremont. Logic says that continuing to kill girls in Claremont following CG would have significantly raised the risk of being caught- even if he just continued to rape girls. The obvious choices are therefore to: a) move locations to continue; b) stop altogether (BTK style); or c) stop in WA and kill only on holidays elsewhere.

I would be interested to know of any rapes at/vicinity of UWA and co-university drinking locations in Crawley etc pre and post 1997.
 
What are your betting odds on:
1) CSK has revisited the dump sites
2) CSK used a 4wd (for papertrail)
3) Location of SS being closer to JR than to CG

4) in thread 2 (post 617), you told Sutton, publicly, a victim had a injury that could have been inflicted by a tool missing from a set belonging to LW.
Can you, given recent developments, provide your betting odds on:
a) reliability of the information; and b) possible tool used

$1.10 - CSK has revisited the dump sites. I bet he has driven past them
$3.00 - Used a 4WD. Certainly possible but there's a lot of talk about a Holden Commodore and also a PV.

SS Location

$2.20 - South near JR
$2.50 - With 5km of Claremont
$2.80 - East

Absolutely no idea TBH
 
This is a possible MO for the CSK:

Parked in carpark near Conti, CBV, Ocean Beach Hotel, or Cottesloe Hotel. Made sure to have a good view of a main road, or got out of the car to watch the footpaths.

Waited for a girl in a vulnerable position to come into his hunting area. If it took too long, he moved to another carpark.

Once he set his sights on a vulnerable target, he would just grab her in a way that's she's unlikely to scream. Punching someone in the face or stomach will usually catch them off guard or knock the breath out of them. Or maybe he used a martial arts attack.

He would further incapacitate them when he got them back to the car. He used a bag of some sort over Karrakatta's head, and bound her wrists. He also may have used chloroform or additional violence or a gag.

He then took them to a nearby, outdoor location, raped them (or sexually assaulted them in some way, and killed them.

I think cutting their throats was the most likely manner of death.

If someone bled to death outside, how long would the blood remain noticeable? A few days? Wouldn't it sink right into the ground? I know the grass might show a discoloration patch, but only a small area and a man familiar with secluded places would know where to carry this out.
 
A few points that need to be made are as follows:

Irrespective of whether or not the 17/02/95 rape victim harboured usable suspect DNA material, Hollywood Private Hospital is, and has always remained a PRIVATE HOSPITAL. Forensic specimens are only taken by a qualified forensic nurse who is typically on standby in a strategic place; usually a major public hospital or custody centre. "Rape kits", as mentioned in this forum, do not exist. If they did exist they would not be administered by any registered nurse.

Western Australia has some of the strongest legislation in the world regarding journalistic integrity. If you read it in a newspaper, you can safely say it's true. ( Be very careful to read the exact wording of an article; a rumor is a rumor, a fact is a fact)

The media, on numerous occasions, have reported that Lance Williams is no longer of interest to Cold Case Detectives.

While there is a lot of speculation on this forum, there is not one official source of information that states there is evidence that a knife was used in any of these crimes. At the time, media outlets, perhaps working off information leaked through chain of information, suggested the most likely cause of death for JR.
 
Western Australia has some of the strongest legislation in the world regarding journalistic integrity. If you read it in a newspaper, you can safely say it's true. ( Be very careful to read the exact wording of an article; a rumor is a rumor, a fact is a fact)

The media, on numerous occasions, have reported that Lance Williams is no longer of interest to Cold Case Detectives.
It's common practice for police to release misinformation in high profile cases such as this one. Do you think WA 's media laws would stop them?

You seem to be saying "whatever it says in the WA papers is true, full stop. This is incredibly naive. On this very thread we have discussed many examples where the media have made mistakes.

I lean towards misinformation by police as part of an investigative campaign but at the same time wouldn't be overly surprised if some information came to light that changed my view.

But right now there's two many things that just don't add up. Anyone who is absolutely convinced there's no way the information could be incorrect needs to explain the following;

1. Why only The Post? This is the only media outlet that directly reported it. Such a big case and no other media outlets were able to gain any info other than what The Post presented? That's odd in itself.

2. There's only two reasonable explanations for the above; a) strategic release by police, and b) unauthorised leak. If its unauthorised then why haven't police plugged that leak? If its authorised and the info is true, why only the Post? It's either an unauthirised leak or police are trying to make out it's an unauthorised leak.

3. JR was left exposed to heavy weather for 57 days. My research says it's unlikely to find such trace after 2 days let alone 57. Possible but again, highly unlikely.

4. When the Schramn review rolled around they found a handfull of leads. One allegedly was the fibres found on JR. So the Schramm team are super focused, find a lead that could crack the case open and they misplace it. That's absurd. As if that would happen. The only possible explanation is BC made an error in journalism. But again, it's yet another thing that doesn't add up. Too many for my liking.

5. From memory, the first time the Post reported this DNS was never mentioned. The words 'forensic link' was used. The next article a few months later DNA was mentione in the middle of the article. It's not only suspicious that the goalposts changed but to mention DNA in passing is also suspicious.

If BC knew they had DNA thn why not mention it in the first article? Why was DNA not i the article title? Surely that's the story? If he only learnt of DNA after the first article then again,why wasn't DNA mentioned in the article title.

This is a massive story and if the other media outlets thought it were true there would be a lot more going on.

6. If they've had DNA since 2011 or whenever it was, why haven't the media got wind in a change of investigative methods. Surely there's an element of 'test everyone you can'. The media would get wind of this pretty quickly. Police would have lists of 1000s of suspects and they'd be trawling through them aggressively.

With those questions unanswered along with the knowledge that in cases like these it is normal for police to oush out strategicalky planned information, I'm leaning towards just that. As more info becomes available my view will evolve. But right now the info tells me hang back and wait and see what happens.
 
A few points that need to be made are as follows:

Irrespective of whether or not the 17/02/95 rape victim harboured usable suspect DNA material, Hollywood Private Hospital is, and has always remained a PRIVATE HOSPITAL. Forensic specimens are only taken by a qualified forensic nurse who is typically on standby in a strategic place; usually a major public hospital or custody centre. "Rape kits", as mentioned in this forum, do not exist. If they did exist they would not be administered by any registered nurse.

Hollywood Private Hospital is indeed a private hospital. The victim of the Karrakatta attack presented there after her attack, and what happened next we dont know. I would assume (and this is very much an assumption) that the victim would have been transfered to the emergency department of a different hospital. At the time, the Sexual Assault Referral Center in Perth was in the emergency department of the King Edward Memorial Hospital. It started life at the Sir Charles Gairdiner Hospital at Nedlands- it was opened in 1976, and relocated in 1986.
https://www3.aifs.gov.au/acssa/docs/WAFSAS/phillips.pdf
One of the 1976 objectives was to assist the Police and Crown Law Department in the apprehension and conviction of the assailant, especially in the collection and presentation of evidence.

A "rape kit" does not exist- technically, it is called a SAIK- a sexual assault identification kit. This kit has developed over time. A description of what is in a current SAIK in Australia is available here:
http://www.legalanswers.sl.nsw.gov.au/hot_topics/pdf/sexual_assault_56.pdf

**edit**- I "assume" the victim was transferred elsewhere for treatment as the police have forensic evidence in the case.
 
A couple of things: pg 1 Bret refers to CG going missing on 17 March 97; incorrect. She went missing just after midnight 15/3/97. P109 Bret says (when referring to JR) "she was thought to have been abducted when walking east in Stirling Highway, Claremont."

Does this mean that Bret has further information that conflicts with WA police re last sighting on CCTV footage, or do we all 'think' that the cctv footage was the last sighting due to message put out by police during the CIA doc ? Or do police know that JR left the area outside the Conti voluntarily and they were just after someone that could identify the MM ?

The 1996 newspaper article I posted last week detailed that WA police were appealing for anyone that witnessed a girl of JR's description walking east on Stirling Highway near Dalkeith Road.
 
these articles, I believe, give a insight into what was occurring in 2009. google the following

forensic science 2009 western australia police

and open the 1st 2 articles; very interesting. there appears to have been a lot of activity in the forensic science area in 2009.

Also, this article re the Rayney debacle, mentions the police commissioner brings in a forensic science guy named Andrews as part of the cold case review of the Rayney case. Andrews had been involved as a (forensic) consultant to police since 2009 through the University of WA’s Centre for Forensic Science (as a adjunct lecturer) -- the centre that Napper had been attached to; Napper worked on the Rayney case. http://www.perthnow.com.au/news/wes...s/news-story/a6f451aa195d1c354a19660f07c63a99



 
$1.10 - CSK has revisited the dump sites. I bet he has driven past them...

RSBM. Debi Marshall's book says,
Like Jane Rimmer's disposal site, the cross that marks where Ciara lay has been repeatedly vandalised and destroyed by fire.

Do you think the CSK vandalized and set fire to the crosses? Who else would do it?

(Location 4788, Chapter 83)
 
Reading quotes from a few links I've come across, one thing has become obvious to me.


http://www.perthnow.com.au/news/lost-in-the-devils-garden/story-e6frg12c-1111113619174
The usually hard-bitten police officer let his sensitivities show only occasionally as he took Debi Marshall around the significant sites in the Claremont serial killings. “Once having seen, you can’t unsee,” he says. “You can’t get rid of the visions from your head. They hang around and haunt you. Forever.” - Detective Senior-Sergeant Anthony Lee


http://www.abc.net.au/pm/content/2004/s1257731.htm
"I think the conclusion we came to, that these are sexually motivated crimes. Has a lot to do with offenders when they're very angry they feel powerless and killing gives them a sense of control and a sense of huge power." - Joel Kohout - Criminal Profiler - Bureau of Criminal Apprehension in Minnesota


Note, these are observations from senior, experienced people. Not rookies/cadets/graduates. My brother in law is a cop and he sees things all the time that are hard to stomach. Horrific injuries/deaths from car accidents, suicides on train tracks, injuries from assaults/harm done to infants. From reading the recollection of Anthony Lee, is it not obvious that they found the bodies in a horrific state? To me, if they were found naked, with all due respect, I'm not sure that is something that may haunt a detective senior sargeant forever. Even if their throats were cut. Did CSK do something extremely gruesome to these girls?
 
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