Bosma Murder Trial 04.07.16 - Day 32

[Ontario Mom]

I'm sorry my opinions have caused such a reaction. I don't share the same impression of MH's testimony as you. That's all.

Have a good weekend.

All MOO.

Not you, just a general vibe, if you know what I mean. You have a good weekend as well.

 

[Claroon]

Thank goodness for waking at 5am to get all housework and personal business completed...
Anyone else wake early to get "work done" before trial starts and then takes full advantage of breaks/lunch? *as I scamper away to finish scrubbing floors*

I work freelance from home office. Yesterday it was yes to scampering around when jury took breaks to actually swiffer my floor, reload coffee, throw in a load of laundry. Yes, this is addicting.

 

[Inspector_North]

So do you think Mark contacted Andrew to bring him the toolbox and bag? or where is AM getting this info that DM wanted it delivered to MS? by the sounds of it, MS didnt want it either - he had no clue what to do with it. How about this idea MOO - these two (AM and MH) figured out what was in the toolbox and decided among themselves that they didn't want anything to do with it so they took it upon themselves to deliver it to Oakville? This makes sense to me? But who knows .... what are your thoughts?

According to BD, MS wasn't going to part with the contents of the toolbox he didn't want anything to do with for under $1,000

 

[redheart]

I'm sorry my opinions have caused such a reaction. I don't share the same impression of MH's testimony as you. That's all.

Have a good weekend.

All MOO.

Don't be sorry, brightii. You always share your opinion respectfully.
It just so happens that I completely agree with you. I do feel some empathy for MH, but stronger than that is my disgust that he would lie to the police. Hypothetically, what if DM and MS were to to be found not guilty? What if that hinged on not finding the murder weapon? Would people be so willing to forgive MH's lying and evidence hiding as the mistakes of a young man then? He was 23 when he lied to the police and hid the toolbox. 23, maybe 22 when he was thieving with DM's gang. He was not a child.
To be frank, I'm disgusted by everyone in DM's circle. Like someone mentioned earlier, not a single person did the right thing and did everything they could to help LE investigate this. Not a single one.

 

[Claroon]

A little help for the logistically challenged:

So MH and AM drop the toolbox and the backpack in a stairwell.

Now LE has the toolbox.

But we don't know anything about what was in either of them, or how LE came to have possession of one (or both)?

LE found the empty tool box when they raided Smich's home. They tested it and found gun residue in it.

S. Clairmont says the jury hasn't heard about the backpack before now.

 

[Ontario Mom]

I can't recall the exact wording but yesterday MH mentioned something to the affect of there being an agreement (not sure who that agreement was between) but then lies took place. This was never expounded on but it sure makes me think those letters from DM to CN trying to get someone to change their testimony made their way into the conversations between AM, MH and CN. It sounds like (and I assume we'll learn the depth of it next week or whenever AM and CN are called to testify) that DM was specifically referring to AM to change his testimony, and once MH found out about someone possibly lying for DM, that's where the rift came in. Which is kind of ironic if that's what happened, given the fact MH had already lied to LE repeatedly before he finally came clean, but maybe not so ironic after all, since he finally did come clean and wanted nothing to do with lying to LE again.

all moo

 

[sab_bri]

According to BD, MS wasn't going to part with the contents of the toolbox he didn't want anything to do with for under $1,000

So he gave it to his friend Author to hold on to, until that didn't work out. Then hid it in the washing machine. Then ended up burying it in the forest. Now I bet he wishes he took that $100 - its better than nothing - he gave it to the forest for free!!! Just to me, it sounds like he had no clue what to do with it.

 

[Satchie]

We've been told that any sort of deal can't be kept secret, but what constitutes a deal? Obviously someone charged with a crime can deal to have those charges or a possible sentence lessened, but is it considered a deal if somebody has not been charged with anything? Something tells me Hagerman is saying what the prosecution needs him to say because they will charge him with being an accessory after the fact (as they quite rightly should) if he doesn't. Would that be considered a deal? Shouldn't the jury be aware of that?

Honestly I'm not believing anything these guys say. Hagerman is full of crap when he says he and AM never discussed the contents of the toolbox. Kids talk, and when there is drama, thats all they do. I think they were all aware Millard was "hot" and I think they were all aware that it had something to do with TBs disappearance. I am convinced that by the 9th or 10th every single one of these guys new exactly what was going on. Probably even earlier than that. What we have here is an organized crime ring led by Millard. All of them are tied in by crimes they've already committed. Thats why Millard had no problems showing off TBs truck, because everybody who's see it was already in up to their eyeballs.

What the testimony of the past week also shows is that Millard called the shots on these missions, and that his soldiers actually knew very little about what was happening. Also, we've learned that these missions have al been stealth missions and non violent. I'm finding it more and more likely that Smich had absolutely now idea that things were going to go the way they did that night, and when they did he had no choice but to aid in the coverup.

Firstly, I think, legally, there's a difference between guessing/having an idea or hunch or suspicion, and actually knowing something as a fact, as the truth. Secondly, I think LE weigh the balance between the value of charging someone vs just having them testify and facing the consequences of that, which is potentially serious in terms of future career, etc.

If they did go to the trouble of charging MH and AM, they'd have to put them in jail, use manpower to prepare the case, take court time to present it to a judge - the judge certainly wouldn't give any onerous punishment. All for what? There's no sign MH is ever going to do anything like it again.

 

[Claroon]

I can empathize with MH and the emotion he is showing reveals his sincere remorse, IMO, but I do wonder about all of DM and MS's friends - where's the anger towards either DM or MS for involving them in TB's crime? I'd be livid for having been used so cruelly and callously!

I'd like to see one witness show true animosity toward DM and/or MS, especially to demonstrate that NOW their loyalty truly lies with TB and his family and a sincere wish for justice.

All MOO.

We want to believe it is remorse, but he said he has anxiety problems. When I talk to people or my doctor even about sensitive issues I cry sometimes not out of any remorse, or any specific emotion, just stress and vulnerability. IMO, could be simply that--relief of stress and anxiety over being vulnerable.

 

[sleuther76]

LE found the empty tool box when they raided Smich's home. They tested it and found gun residue in it.

S. Clairmont says the jury hasn't heard about the backpack before now.

Just to clarify, they found 1 particle of gun residue in it. Do you have any idea how small a particle is? It's microscopic.

I believe that if a gun (especially a recently fired gun) was in the toolbox there would be many more "particles"

My guess is that either a gun was in there, but a very long time ago (not related to this case) or someone that was around when a gun was fired put something in there and a particle was transferred.

However, I'm not gun residue expert. To reference this article:

"If the count is 2000+ on the face, hands, and other areas, your client has problems. Is the count 20 or less? An individual can get that by coming in contact with the police or other people." source: http://www.crime-scene-investigator.net/gsrstillviable.html

 

[Deleted member 102539]

...wondering what's that stuff coming out of MH eyes? What performance is this?

(DM point of view)

Autistics and Psychopaths would think so, I believe.

 

[Inspector_North]

Just to clarify, they found 1 particle of gun residue in it. Do you have any idea how small a particle is? It's microscopic.

I believe that if a gun (especially a recently fired gun) was in the toolbox there would be many more "particles"

My guess is that either a gun was in there, but a very long time ago (not related to this case) or someone that was around when a gun was fired put something in there and a particle was transferred.

However, I'm not gun residue expert. To reference this article:

"If the count is 2000+ on the face, hands, and other areas, your client has problems. Is the count 20 or less? An individual can get that by coming in contact with the police or other people." source: http://www.crime-scene-investigator.net/gsrstillviable.html

What if it was wrapped like MH suggested?

 

[sleuther76]

What if it was wrapped like MH suggested?

Who knows ... as I said I am no gun residue expert, but as the article suggests, if we were around a recently fired gun you would have 2000+ particles all over you. If you placed an item that had been recently fired inside something that wasn't air tight (i.e. zip lock bag) then I assume that more than just 1 particle would appear in the box. MOO

 

[andreww]

I wonder if these people whose activities and their far reaching consequences have been exposed, become more honest in the future than those who were never caught? Would they be more vigilant of their future children's behaviour?

I doubt it. Very rarely can you rehabilitate people. If you don't have the moral compass to know right from wrong, you never will. The fact that every one of these people is walking out of court with their faces covered tells me that they have things to hide.

 

[Errrr]

So do you think Mark contacted Andrew to bring him the toolbox and bag? or where is AM getting this info that DM wanted it delivered to MS? by the sounds of it, MS didnt want it either - he had no clue what to do with it. How about this idea MOO - these two (AM and MH) figured out what was in the toolbox and decided among themselves that they didn't want anything to do with it so they took it upon themselves to deliver it to Oakville? This makes sense to me? But who knows .... what are your thoughts?

I'm wondering why DM was making it so hard for MS to get hold of the toolbox while AM was trying to make it so easy? DM doesn't seem to have told AM about it. He only learned of it when he called MH after the raid. I wonder if AM unwittingly wanted the evidence planted on Smich to take attention off DM? Hagerman seemed to be aware that Smich was not to get hold of it though that was never addressed in court.

 

[sab_bri]

Just to clarify, they found 1 particle of gun residue in it. Do you have any idea how small a particle is? It's microscopic.

I believe that if a gun (especially a recently fired gun) was in the toolbox there would be many more "particles"

My guess is that either a gun was in there, but a very long time ago (not related to this case) or someone that was around when a gun was fired put something in there and a particle was transferred.

However, I'm not gun residue expert. To reference this article:

"If the count is 2000+ on the face, hands, and other areas, your client has problems. Is the count 20 or less? An individual can get that by coming in contact with the police or other people." source: http://www.crime-scene-investigator.net/gsrstillviable.html

Good Point! I was thinking that MS cleaned the toolbox after he disposed of the Gun and just didn't clean it well enough to remove all traces of the residue. But this is MOO. But perhaps its as you say, the gun wasn't actually in there, just the drugs - and MS might have had the gun on him the entire time?

 

[RandomName479]

Just to clarify, they found 1 particle of gun residue in it. Do you have any idea how small a particle is? It's microscopic.

I believe that if a gun (especially a recently fired gun) was in the toolbox there would be many more "particles"

My guess is that either a gun was in there, but a very long time ago (not related to this case) or someone that was around when a gun was fired put something in there and a particle was transferred.

However, I'm not gun residue expert. To reference this article:

"If the count is 2000+ on the face, hands, and other areas, your client has problems. Is the count 20 or less? An individual can get that by coming in contact with the police or other people." source: http://www.crime-scene-investigator.net/gsrstillviable.html

BBM - where was it said there was only "1 particle"?

 

[Ontario Mom]

Don't be sorry, brightii. You always share your opinion respectfully.
It just so happens that I completely agree with you. I do feel some empathy for MH, but stronger than that is my disgust that he would lie to the police. Hypothetically, what if DM and MS were to to be found not guilty? What if that hinged on not finding the murder weapon? Would people be so willing to forgive MH's lying and evidence hiding as the mistakes of a young man then? He was 23 when he lied to the police and hid the toolbox. 23, maybe 22 when he was thieving with DM's gang. He was not a child.
To be frank, I'm disgusted by everyone in DM's circle. Like someone mentioned earlier, not a single person did the right thing and did everything they could to help LE investigate this. Not a single one.

AJ did call Crimestoppers about Tim's truck. So there's that.

To me it's not so much about forgiving MH's inaction & lying to LE at the beginning of the investigation into DM, as it is feeling bad for him now as it appears he is rather tormented by his own actions and involvement after the fact. What I find ironic is that so far, he seems to be the only one in DM's circle that has expressed any kind of gut-emotion about the seriousness of the case.

 

[sab_bri]

I'm wondering why DM was making it so hard for MS to get hold of the toolbox while AM was trying to make it so easy? DM doesn't seem to have told AM about it. He only learned of it when he called MH after the raid. I wonder if AM unwittingly wanted the evidence planted on Smich to take attention off DM? Hagerman seemed to be aware that Smich was not to get hold of it though that was never addressed in court.

Exactly! And then MH goes and calls crime stoppers to give them Mark ... ??

 

[sleuther76]

Good Point! I was thinking that MS cleaned the toolbox after he disposed of the Gun and just didn't clean it well enough to remove all traces of the residue. But this is MOO. But perhaps its as you say, the gun wasn't actually in there, just the drugs - and MS might have had the gun on him the entire time?

Or never ... who knows ... right now there really isn't any hard evidence re: MS. All I can say is that I don't trust the last 2 witnesses/friends ... they are liars and pot heads. IMHO