The Rumor Mill -- unsubstantiated, yet possible relevant information

[Puggle]

Again I just wanted to bring it up...

Can anyone tell me why these rumours that phone calls were spoofed to Mari using either B Hacketts phone number or P Hacketts phone number should be belived.

Surely common sense will tell you that as Mr Ray has already taken sworn depositions from Mr Hackett where he has admitted making these .... and again he admitted to the 48hrs program that he did.

Hence Mr Ray was able to proceed with his court action ...... if there was any question of the calls being spoofed, the case would have been thrown out of court.

There is no questions he made the phone calls only what was the conversation made during them was.

What am I missing?

 

[Puggle]

Well somebody was there "partying" with Brewer and Shannan. Is Lenny just a renter or is he a friend? If it wasn't Lenny and it wasn't Vito who was it? I'm not convinced. But this can't won't go anywhere untilt he drifter is ID'd

I tried Lindsay ..... the one I gave you is my best shot....otherwise I'm stumped...

 

[fred&edna]

"Mental illness and drugs certainly are a combination for all kinds of mayhem. It seems that whole family is troubled."[FONT=Calibri, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif] - Dr. Charles Tumosa 7/28/16[/FONT]

[FONT=Calibri, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]I believe it is pretty clear that SG used drugs at some point during the hours she was at Brewer's. We know she was bi-polar, and unmedicated for her condition. It is sad and it is tragic but I think that whatever she took, whether it was E or synthetic marijuana, caused her body temperature to rise drastically and the poor girl as a result was delusional. It is actually not that uncommon to people to strip off their clothes in response to the body heat - you can confirm that with a medical examiner.

I discussed this again recently with Dr. Tumosa down in Baltimore and the chat will be posted online as part of Rippercast fairly soon. I will post a link when it goes up.

[/FONT][FONT=Calibri, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]This is Tumosa's CV if you want to check out his bona fides in the meantime:

[/FONT]https://www.ubalt.edu/cpa/uploads/faculty-pdf/TUMOSAVita.pdf

[FONT=Calibri, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]And here is some material on MDMA and body temperature:

[/FONT]https://www.nih.gov/news-events/news-releases/mdma-can-be-fatal-warm-environments

[FONT=Calibri, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Some more can be found here:

[/FONT]http://www.phoenixhouse.org/news-and-views/our-perspectives/missing-the-point-with-molly/[FONT=Calibri, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]

[/FONT]First, while it may be true that Molly may be more dangerous when other drugs are added to it than when they aren’t, the idea that you can safely take “pure” Molly is false. Molly is a dangerous, powerful drug that can increase the heart rate, raise blood pressure, and raise body temperature so much that users are liable to strip off their clothes in zero-degree weather, making them susceptible to hypothermia. It can cause liver, kidney, or cardiovascular failure; in people who have preexisting high blood pressure—known or not—it can cause a stroke.[FONT=Calibri, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]

[/FONT]

In a nutshell... it's mental illness and drug use combined with exposure/hypothermia leading to paradoxical undressing.

It's certainly a very good theory.

However, I've never been quite able to buy the paradoxical undressing. Yes, I know it happens and is not necessarily rare, and it's been discussed a bit here on WS. But a few things continue to prevent me from accepting it. 'Just from my research/reading about cases of paradoxical undressing it seems (depending upon area (indoors, outdoors) terrain, etc... the victims' clothing seems to be found seemingly "placed" in a particular area near the body OR it's in shed as they move "leading" to the body (unintentionally leaving a trail).

Also, that's a long way for a slim, half-naked, mentally ill, drugged woman to travel (from location of where pants were found) to the location of her remains.

Combining this with the fact she was found in an area relatively close to murder victims (with the same physical stature and in the same line of business)... it's tough for me to easily accept as simple coincidence.

There are a few other oddities with the case that give me pause... ultimately, I guess I'm just not an easy sell

Thank you for your reply!

Very puzzling case of possible mental illness(postpartum delusion)/religion/hypothermia/paradoxical undressing - the deaths of a mother and her two children. It's not comparable to SG... just sharing because it's interesting.

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/sh...lbany-Mother-two-children-found-dead-in-creek

 

[Robert Anderson]

In a nutshell... it's mental illness and drug use combined with exposure/hypothermia leading to paradoxical undressing.

It's certainly a very good theory.

However, I've never been quite able to buy the paradoxical undressing. Yes, I know it happens and is not necessarily rare, and it's been discussed a bit here on WS. But a few things continue to prevent me from accepting it. 'Just from my research/reading about cases of paradoxical undressing it seems (depending upon area (indoors, outdoors) terrain, etc... the victims' clothing seems to be found seemingly "placed" in a particular area near the body OR it's in shed as they move "leading" to the body (unintentionally leaving a trail).

Also, that's a long way for a slim, half-naked, mentally ill, drugged woman to travel (from location of where pants were found) to the location of her remains.

Combining this with the fact she was found in an area relatively close to murder victims (with the same physical stature and in the same line of business)... it's tough for me to easily accept as simple coincidence.

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/sh...lbany-Mother-two-children-found-dead-in-creek

Thanks for the considered response.

As far as "placing" the clothing it does seem like it was all left in one place if I remember correctly. Weren't her shoes, purse, pants and cell phone all placed near one another? I would have to think a killer would not have left them so close to their Oak Beach home......Sorta failing Serial Killer 101. LISK is a very meticulous planner. This isn't his handiwork.

I think one should not underestimate what a bi-polar person can do under the "right" circumstances. Clothing was about a quarter mile away from her remains. Far, but not that far as to be impossible.

I picture an exhausted, freaked out Shannon collapsing not that far from the OP and landing in a shallow pool of water/mud/silt.

The sad part of this is that during her run from Brewer's house she would have gone past the exit to the community, which is lit. A turn left instead of a turn right and this might have had a different ending.

 

[Robert Anderson]

In a nutshell... it's mental illness and drug use combined with exposure/hypothermia leading to paradoxical undressing.

I believe paradoxical undressing refers to hypothermia BTW, which is not what SG would have faced.

 

[LindsayLohan6]

Robert, you think Shannan drowned. Ok...who was the second man in the house with her and Brewer? How can you jump to the conclusion that her fear was baseless without even knowing who the guy was?

 

[Robert Anderson]

Robert, you think Shannan drowned. Ok...who was the second man in the house with her and Brewer? How can you jump to the conclusion that her fear was baseless without even knowing who the guy was?

Just to be clear, I suspect she drowned. But drowning can be connotative of deep water; I'm not saying that. She may have aspirated mud. Speculation on my part.

With respect to "The Drifter" - presuming he was there - does it really matter who he is? If SG was having a psychotic break Brewer could have had a host of people over and the disconnect with reality still trumps everything. And it seems to me all the stories about a drifter stem from a single New York Post story which then gets referenced by other news sources.

Such as this, which cites the Post.

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2011/04/09/police-second-man-partying-missing-new-york-prostitute.html

 

[LindsayLohan6]

Don't all news stories start from a single paper? with every story I've ever seen one paper gets the scoop and all the others run it. That's how the news works. How can you determine SG was having a psychotic break? How do you know the dirfter didn't cause her to fear for her life? You are just deciding she had a psychotic break without all the facts

 

[Robert Anderson]

Don't all news stories start from a single paper? with every story I've ever seen one paper gets the scoop and all the others run it. That's how the news works. How can you determine SG was having a psychotic break? How do you know the dirfter didn't cause her to fear for her life? You are just deciding she had a psychotic break without all the facts

I am not "deciding" anything. None of us have all the facts. Probably not even Brewer.

If she was of right mind AND in fear for her life many of her actions that night make no sense.

1) Refusing to get in the car with Pak and get the hell out of there. That's a big red flag right there.

2) Turning right on Anchor Way and running right past the lit exit to the Community.

3) Fleeing from Gus.

4) Hiding under the boat.

5) Going into the marsh, though all the brambles and thorns, and stripping her clothes off.

I hope the 911 call gets released because I think hearing it would confirm a lot of our thoughts on this sad episode.

 

[LindsayLohan6]

1. She was clearly afraid of Pak, did she think Pak was in cahoots with whoever she was afraid of perhaps?
2. If she ran outside the community what we should do? There were no houses. She was clearly running for help, not to get away. which brings us to the third point.
3. I firmly believe Gus kept Shannan locked out on the front steps of his house while he called the police and this is why she ran. She released he wasn't going to protect her but simply "phone it in". She wanted to be let inside, behind locked doors with someone who could keep her safe RIGHT AWAY. Not wait on Gus steps till the cops arrive in half an hour. I think this may be the reason Fluekyou attacked Gus, because he lied about letting her inside.
4. It sounds like she was hiding from Pak maybe hoping he would drive by without seeing her under the boat, that doesn't sound psychotic to me.
5. Do you have any source that says Shannan was seen running into the marsh? Because i don't believe she was

The 911 call hasnt been released because it shows shannan's fear was real. If it she was just having a psychotic break and no one was after her and she ran into a marsh and drowned they would release it. But that's not the case. Your theory simplifies the situation while ignoring many possibilities.

 

[Robert Anderson]

The 911 call hasnt been released because it shows shannan's fear was real. If it she was just having a psychotic break and no one was after her and she ran into a marsh and drowned they would release it. But that's not the case. Your theory simplifies the situation while ignoring many possibilities.

Just going to address this last point of yours. (I don't pretend to understand, nor want to understand, the feud between Fluke and Gus. Just not helpful to trying to learn what really happened that night.)

The confidentially of 911 calls varies from state to state. And New York's is tough. It's pretty clear cut.

http://www.ncsl.org/research/teleco...y/confidentiality-of-911-call-recordings.aspx

New York
NY County Law § 308(4)
4. Records, in whatever form they may be kept, of calls made to a municipality's E911 system shall not be made available to or obtained by any entity or person, other than that municipality' public safety agency, another government agency or body, or a private entity or a person providing medical, ambulance or other emergency services, and shall not be utilized for any commercial purpose other than the provision of emergency services.

 

[LindsayLohan6]

Ok and the other points? Fluke accusing Gus of lying about letting Shannan into his house could be relevant. I believe Gus has given conflicting testimony on the matter. If Shannan wasn't allowed in Gus's house, it gives a rational explanation for why she ran and knocked on BB's door. But what about the other points?

 

[LindsayLohan6]

mcme, since you are a residents can i ask you a question? Shannan's murder occured on Walpurgis or witches night. is there anyone is the OB Community who might practice witchraft, wicca, anything like that? Someone with an interest in witchraft? Any inside would be much appreciated!

 

[Sillybilly]

Ok and the other points? Fluke accusing Gus of lying about letting Shannan into his house could be relevant. I believe Gus has given conflicting testimony on the matter. If Shannan wasn't allowed in Gus's house, it gives a rational explanation for why she ran and knocked on BB's door. But what about the other points?

My belief that Shannan did not drown has always been based in part on GC claiming that when she was at his house she only had her jacket and cell phone but no purse, yet her purse was one of the items found in the marsh.

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/sh...ert-Connecting-the-dots&p=7446363#post7446363

http://webcache.googleusercontent.c...rker-135157848.html+&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=ca

 

[LindsayLohan6]

Sharp eye silly that's a great point. If she didn't have her purse how could get to the marsh? Proponents of the drowning theory choose to ignore important details like this. The drowning theory has no merit.

 

[Robert Anderson]

My belief that Shannan did not drown has always been based in part on GC claiming that when she was at his house she only had her jacket and cell phone but no purse, yet her purse was one of the items found in the marsh.

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/sh...ert-Connecting-the-dots&p=7446363#post7446363

http://webcache.googleusercontent.c...rker-135157848.html+&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=ca

From the second link you posted; it sounds like if anything I have been too conservative in describing the water levels. I think people are making this all too complicated in a search for "the truth". But hey, I could be wrong.

And SillyBilly, I have to tell you that eye witness testimony (i.e. "no purse") is notoriously unreliable. That is just an unfortunate part of investigations and cases. It's a lot more likely Gus was mistaken than that the purse went on a journey before being placed with her other belongings.



Police Find Shoes, Jeans, Cell Phone in Latest Beachside Search for Missing Woman

Authorities believe the missing woman may have drowned in the marsh.

By Greg Cergol

Police investigating the disappearance of a woman along an isolated stretch of Long Island beachfront said Wednesday they had found her jeans, shoes and cell phone and believed she may have drowned in a marshy area when she went missing in 2010.

​

Armed with dredging machinery and canine units, police for the second day scoured the area where Shannan Gilbert was last seen in May 2010.Suffolk County Police Commissioner Richard Dormer said the waters in the marsh had receded far below the lake-like terrain that officers had encountered in previous searches, allowing them to discover the latest items.
"It's our belief that her body, or parts of her remains, may be in that location," Dormer said Wednesday.
Dormer said a purse they found on Tuesday contains some type of photo ID, but said the items inside the bag must be meticulously dried, and said authorities have not yet been able to examine the ID.
At her home in upstate New York, Shannan Gilbert's mother cried as she listened to police explain on television that her daughter probably drowned.
Mari Gilbert hoped for the best during the search for her daughter but, she said Wednesday, "I guess God had other plans for her."
Police believe Shannan Gilbert's body will soon be found, and that the missing prostitute may have drowned, instead of being killed.
"We believe that Shannan Gilbert ran into that area the night she disappeared," Dormer said. "It's very easy to get engulfed with water and muck and fall down and not be able to get out of there. So we surmise that that's what happened to Shannan and she's in there someplace, and we're going to do everything we can to find her."
Police Inspector Stuart Cameron said officers performing the search have been navigating quicksand-like terrain, abruptly dropping to their "waist or deeper," unable to get out without help.

 

[marble]

I'm probably going to regret wading into this (sorry) especially since there's a *very* outside possibility that she had some kind of drug-induced psychotic break, suffered from a sudden an inability to regulate body temperature for whatever reason (I guess not hypothermia since it wasn't chilly enough?) passed out and aspirated in some water which ultimately was her COD (yes, I grew up hearing that children can drown in less than two inches of water so it's not that I believe the water would have need to be particularly deep) *but* mcme is a local who was intimately familiar with what the standing water was like *in the exact area she was found*. The talk of being sucked into sand up to her waist as the searchers were and sucked into a muck quagmire and fall headfirst into a puddle and drown were all potential scenarios before her exact location and the state of her body was known.

Yeah, I guess it's possible in a freak accident kind of way. But it's still kind of questionable based on what we know so far, imo.

On the other hand it seems like a pretty difficult task for one person to have dragged her out to where she was found given the terrain and conditions unless they dragged her in by way of the highway. Which I guess has been ruled out?

So I don't know. But it really sounds to me like if the cause of death was actually drowning it'd be one of the more unusual cases of it .

 

[Robert Anderson]

I'm probably going to regret wading into this (sorry) especially since there's a *very* outside possibility that she had some kind of drug-induced psychotic break, suffered from a sudden an inability to regulate body temperature for whatever reason (I guess not hypothermia since it wasn't chilly enough?)

Hypothermia is when you get too cold. That's not what happened here.

E, bath salts and synthetic marijuana all can raise your body temperature to dangerous levels. You know how people get delusional with high fevers? Think worse than that.

*but* mcme is a local who was intimately familiar with what the standing water was like *in the exact area she was found*. The talk of being sucked into sand up to her waist as the searchers were and sucked into a muck quagmire and fall headfirst into a puddle and drown were all potential scenarios before her exact location and the state of her body was known.

.

When several of us went out to Oak Beach in April we spoke to a resident that told us that, yes, the tides would affect the water levels in the marsh. Didn't get her name - we just wanted to get the lay of the land and disturb residents as little as possible. We just met her on Anchors Way by happenstance. Didn't get into a detailed discussion. I presume it wasn't MCME lol.

So when the police describe lake like conditions there might be some hyperbole in there, but I'm confident the area was pretty darn wet at high tide before they addressed the drainage. And SG would have entered the marsh at low tide.

All it would have taken is the aspiration of some mud. Drowning can make it sound as if she was in a swimming pool, which wasn't the case.

 

[LindsayLohan6]

theres just no reason to believe shannan was on e, bath salts, snthetic mj or pcp that night. thats a claim with no basis in fact. hasnt brewer said they were doing coke?

 

[Sillybilly]

From the second link you posted; it sounds like if anything I have been too conservative in describing the water levels. I think people are making this all too complicated in a search for "the truth". But hey, I could be wrong.

from that same link:

Police Inspector Stuart Cameron said officers performing the search have been navigating quicksand-like terrain, abruptly dropping to their "waist or deeper," unable to get out without help.

So how was Shannon able to make it from one side of the marsh right through to within 150 feet of the Parkway?