MI MI - JOHN NORMAN COLLINS Co-Ed Murders 1967-69, Ann Arbor and Ypsilanti

[Winward1]

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[Winward1]

There's indisputable evidence that Stephanie Casberg and Beineman (portions of the surface skin of both were removed) were murdered by the same person. Casburg was murdered 15 days before Beineman.

Do you have evidence that Collins was in Milwaukee when Casberg vanished? Milwaukee is pretty close to Chicago, where Thoresen had an apartment and Casberg's body was found between Milwaukee and Chicago.

You have yet to establish that William Thoresen was even in Michigan at the time of any of the murders. Lots of theory and supposition, but no evidence.

 

[Richard]

There's indisputable evidence that Stephanie Casberg and Beineman (portions of the surface skin of both were removed) were murdered by the same person. Casburg was murdered 15 days before Beineman.

Do you have evidence that Collins was in Milwaukee when Casberg vanished? Milwaukee is pretty close to Chicago, where Thoresen had an apartment and Casberg's body was found between Milwaukee and Chicago.

I don't know if or when any forensic comparison was made between the murders of Stephanie Marie Casberg (7 July 1969) and Karen Sue Beineman (23 July 1969) which occurred 16 days apart. It is known that Stephanie's body was completely dismembered and her body parts scattered in several locations. Karen's body was intact, but moved from the murder site to a remote ravine area and dumped. Both girls had been stabbed or cut with a knife.

Here is a link to the websleuths thread on Stephanie which was started in 2006. As you can see, there have been some comparisons to the Michigan Coed murders and mention of John Norman Collins by others in the thread as early as 2013. I posted to that thread, but have never stated outright that I think Collins was her killer.


Stephanie Marie Casberg, 17
Murdered 7 July 1969
LINK:
WI - WI - Stephanie Casberg, 17, Racine County, 6 July 1969

To answer your question, no I do not have any evidence that Collins was in Wisconsin at the time of Stephanie's murder. Collins, along with his friend Andrew Manuel, was believed to have departed Salinas, California on or about 3 July 1969 after having his Oldsmobile serviced and a bumper hitch removed on that date. They were back in Ypsilanti, Michigan on or about 8 July 1969.

Collins and Manuel were driving from California to Michigan between 3 and 8 July 1969. It is possible that they could have made a slight detour into Wisconsin by 6 or 7 July, but I do not know that to be the case for certain. It would certainly bear researching.

 

[Winward1]

I don't know if or when any forensic comparison was made between the murders of Stephanie Marie Casberg (7 July 1969) and Karen Sue Beineman (23 July 1969) which occurred 16 days apart.

But there is one. The patches, several inches of skin, that were removed from the bodies of both of them. I've seen the evidence photos in Casberg's case and read the descriptions in Beineman's.

We know the Michigan Coed Killer was responsible for a series of murders that escalated in brutality and depravity. There's no reason to believe that the guy who tortured Beineman (I can't remember, didn't he burn her with a caustic substance?) was not capable of a dismemberment murder ( one of the Coed Killer victims was missing a foot and a hand.)

Otherwise, there's evidence galore that Thoresen shot, stabbed, bludgeoned, strangled, tortured and dismembered victims in one or any combination (though he never just tortured. I believe one victim did escape and survive.) There's evidence that he abducted several people. He trolled for victims on college campuses, along roads and committed numerous home invasion mass murders.

Of course, this would surprise no one from Zodiac.

 

[Winward1]

The Casberg case is a local one for me and I know someone who has studied it for years. Not only did Casberg's remains exhibit similarly sounding missing patches of skin, she was also missing one earring. Need I say more.

 

[Richard]

In comparing any two or more separate murders or violent attacks, one looks for similarities in a number of different factors. One of those factors is the weapon used and how it is used.

The Michigan "Coed" murders - as generally grouped by the Michigan investigators, the official "task force", and by various writers - involved different weapons and methods which caused the deaths. There were some victims who were shot with pistols, some were garroted/choked, some beaten with blunt objects, and some were stabbed to death.

These multiple types of weapons might indicate either a perpetrator who continually changed methods, or might also indicate that more than one killer was involved - either working together or separately. In fact, some of the "Coed" cases had indications that more than one perpetrator was involved.

One common link which connected some (but not all) of the cases was the use of a sharp knife which was used to both stab and slash the victims. Unfortunately, published reports do not specifically describe the knife in all cases, but one that did - that of Joan Elspeth Schell - indicated that she was stabbed over 25 times with a knife which had a four inch blade that was one inch wide.

The knife used would have to have been one that could withstand numerous stabbing motions, as well as precise cutting or slicing motions - and this would eliminate most kitchen type knives of that blade size. A kitchen knife would likely bend or break, and certainly lose its edge.

The blade would have to be quite thick, and extend all the way through the handle. To prevent the killer's hand from slipping and cutting his own fingers, a hilt (finger guard) would be needed. These "requirements" would indicate that the knife was a hunting knife of either the sheath or "folder" style.

Most hunting knives available in the late 1960's were of the sheath (non folding) style and most had blades which ranged from between 5 and 7 inches in length. Usually the longer the blade, the more width as well. A four inch long/ one inch wide knife with the features described would have been rather unique. There was one very popular sheath knife of that time frame which is still made today, and that is the Buck model 102 Woodsman.

Buck Classic Fixed Blade Hunting Knives

Today, quickly opened folder knives are popular and readily available. A folder has a thick blade which will lock into place when open, preventing it from closing on the user's hand. The advantage to them is that they fit easily into the pocket or a small belt holder. But back in 1967-69, there were not many such knives available. One that was available then was the Buck model 110, which is still a very popular knife today. It features a blade which is 3 and 3 quarter inches long and one inch wide.

https://www.buckknives.com/product/110-folding-hunter-knife/0110FAM01/

 

[Winward1]

Thoresen was an extreme enthusiast of guns and knives. I'm not the first to believe Zodiac and the MI Coed Killer were the same person because the attacks are all over the map MO wise and the motives were the same.

Then you have them happening during the same months with more than enough time for travel between locations and insiders stifling independent investigations of certain cases (Sims, Percy) and DNA that is never adequate or goes untested (Zodiac, Starved Rock, Morrison Means.)

If it was the same person you have a guy who struck by night and by day, used cars, cabs and motorcycles. There's no reason to expect this guy would limit himself in any way, to any MO or to any area. Zodiac is all over the Morrison Means case just a few hour's drive from MI, WI and Iowa.

 

[Richard]

Detroit Free Press: Through interviews with John Norman Collins and DNA evidence, Michigan State Police look to solve the cold case of the late 1960s Michigan murders that left 8 women and girls slain...

LINK:

 

[Winward1]

The witnesses who saw the Beineman suspect's motorcycle remarked that it featured lot of chrome. If I recall correctly there's an account where it was said it was highly reflective in the sun.

The Honda CL that William Thoresen owned featured a noticeably larger amount chrome than Collins' Triumph, due to a significantly larger exhaust system that covered a large portion of its left side.

Honda used a similar, if not identical, exhaust system on their CL models from the late 60s through the early 70s. This photo captures how it could appear on a sunny day. This is yet another reason to believe the motorcycle the witness saw was a Honda, as was originally and widely reporter, not a' Triumph.

And Thoresen, not Collins, who murdered Karen Beineman.

And remember, long before all the fishiness of Collins' trial, all the original reports were that the bike was a Honda. It wasn't until defense witnesses started getting threatened by cops that they better testify to things they know weren't true, that "witnesses" appeared out of the woodwork telling stories of seeing a Triumph.

 

[Winward1]

HondaCL — Postimages

 

[Winward1]

I think everyone here who has researched serial killers knows there are similarities in their backgrounds. The word misfit comes to mind.

In other words, they're not like Collins, who was president of the Spanish club, lettered in numerous sports in high school and was popular with the ladies in college. The guy was doing everything that counselors advise a young man should do. In other words, his background was the antithesis of a future serial killer.

You put this together with it seeming like the case against him was manufactured, with evidence from a cop's basement and a star witness who lied. Other cops who were harassing a defense witness (who clearly were not trying to solve a motorcycle parts fencing racket. Because we all have heard of all the people who're fencing motorcycle parts. There's such a huge market for motorcycle parts in Michigan.)

How do could Collins' background be so different? And if he did kill all these ladies, how did he escape prosecution for all but one of them?

 

[cady]

Evidence. They had compelling evidence in the KSB case that would and did put him away for life. I went to EMU at the same time Collins did. Never met him, though. I knew Joan Schell from seeing her in my dorm. Everyone hitchhiked back then, thinking it was cheap and relatively safe. I've wondered why there wasn't really much pursuit of the other murders he likely committed, but I think that they didn't have evidence compelling enough to charge him. You would think that DNA would have solved the other cases years later (MANY!) but who knows if swabs were preserved and fingernail scrapings, etc. It was a nightmare, but it curtailed hitchhiking, and the serial killings stopped after he was caught. JMO Ted Bundy was quite the poster boy himself. Maybe they mostly all have mommy issues.

 

[Richard]

I think everyone here who has researched serial killers knows there are similarities in their backgrounds. The word misfit comes to mind.

In other words, they're not like Collins, who was president of the Spanish club, lettered in numerous sports in high school and was popular with the ladies in college. The guy was doing everything that counselors advise a young man should do. In other words, his background was the antithesis of a future serial killer.

You put this together with it seeming like the case against him was manufactured, with evidence from a cop's basement and a star witness who lied. Other cops who were harassing a defense witness (who clearly were not trying to solve a motorcycle parts fencing racket. Because we all have heard of all the people who're fencing motorcycle parts. There's such a huge market for motorcycle parts in Michigan.)

How do could Collins' background be so different? And if he did kill all these ladies, how did he escape prosecution for all but one of them?

You leave out a few of Collins' achievements. He was involved in burglaries and thefts of auto and motorcycle parts. In fact, his four motorcycles (two street bikes and two trail bikes) were made up of stolen parts. He was kicked out of his fraternity for stealing money from one of their funds. And then there was that camping trailer that he and Andrew Manuel stole by passing a forged check and using a false ID card, driving cross country with it and abandoning it in California.

It was also alleged that Collins and Arnold Davis worked a scam to steal cash from a department store where Davis worked. Collins would purchase a high price item like a stereo using a forged and worthless check, then return the item for cash.

Now, these instances of petty larceny, breaking and entry, burglary, and grand theft do not necessarily mean that Collins would commit murder as well, but it does go a long way in disproving any idea that he was a straight and narrow innocent guy. The term "misfit" does come to mind.

Yes, he did fancy himself a Ladies Man, and from many different sources, he was constantly looking for and approaching young women with offers of a ride in his car or on his motorcycle. And this feature of his personality and habits is something that fits into the common scenario of the Coed Murder victims' abductions.

Looking at the court documents regarding eyewitness testimony on the motorcycle, it does not appear that any of them changed their statements from what they told investigators in July 1969, until their appearance on the stand in court. Mrs. Goshe and Mrs. Spaulding both stated from beginning to end that they were not familiar with the make of motorcycle, but that it was blue, shiny, and had a square mirror when they saw John Norman Collins sitting on it outside the Wig Shop. Both identified Collins in court and both declined to identify his Triumph motorcycle which was also in the court room. Another eyewitness, Ms. Carol Wieczerza, however, DID identify Collins' blue Triumph 650 as the motorcycle she saw that same time and day.

It is true that Collins was only convicted of one murder - that of Karen Sue Beineman. He was found guilty of first degree murder and sentenced to the maximum of Life in Prison without parole.

There are probably a number of different reasons (all open to debate and speculation) as to why prosecutors declined to pursue convictions in the other cases. One would certainly be stated officially as being that they only charged him on the one in which they had the most evidence, and that with that conviction, they had already got the maximum sentence for him. If more modern methods and proofs were subsequently available, they could (and perhaps should) try him for other murders.

It is also very possible (and even likely) that Collins was not the lone killer of all the young women and girls. A comparison of the cases might lead investigators to connect them for various reasons - and by association of one to the other, to Collins. But to convict Collins, the evidence in each case would require a number of proofs which link him (and him alone) to that specific murder.

It is also true that just because one of the "Coed" cases was to be proven the work of another killer (as in the case of Jane Mixer's murder), it does not prove Collins innocent of the Beineman murder - or rule him out as participating in or committing the others.

There were, in fact, other disappearances, murders, and rapes of young women which took place in Michigan (and adjacent states and provinces) around the same time frame as the murders known as "the Coed Murders". Some of those crimes are still unsolved and open, while others were solved and convictions made.

In Michigan, in December 1968, the tortured and strangled body of a 14 year old girl named Eileen Adams was found near US 23 just south of Ypsilanti. It was believed by some in local law enforcement and press to be connected with the Coed cases, and it remained unsolved for some 40 years before Robert Bowman was convicted and sentenced to life in an Ohio prison for her murder.

Margaret Phillips, a University of Michigan grad student was murdered 5 July 1969 in her apartment by Ernest Bishop, Jr. and was for a short period of time considered as part of the Coed series. Bishop was judged not guilty by reason of insanity, committed to a mental hospital and released in 1974.

On 9 December 1968, Gloria Murphy (age 19) was stabbed to death in her Ann Arbor home, receiving multiple stab wounds. Her husband, James Murphy (age 21) was arrested and he confessed to killing her. He, like Bishop was found Not Guilty by reason of insanity, and sent to Ionia State Hospital. He too, was released by 1974.

There is a real possibility that there were other killers out there, not associated in any way with Collins that coincidentally committed murders on similar victims and using similar methods. But it is even more possible that Collins was in league with two or more others committing some or all of the Coed Murders. His two associates in other crimes and living arrangements; Arnold Davis and Andrew Manuel were both given immunity to testify against Collins in the Beineman trial. Both admitted to disposing of potential evidence.

Arnold Davis admitted to being in the car with Collins (and another man he declined to name) when Joan Schell was picked up the night of her murder. He claimed that Collins alone drove off with Schell in his own car the night of her murder, and that he mentioned the "coincidence" of her death to Collins - but didn't think it important enough to mention to police until he was questioned by them in 1969.

Andrew Manuel fled the state on or shortly after 26 July 1969 when police first became suspicious of Collins. Manuel served time in Michigan for grand theft of the camping trailer and went on to serve two separate prison terms for Federal crimes. One or both of them could well have been involved in the Coed murders.

 

[Winward1]

And the source of information for this would be the cops who told witnesses that they would testify to things that they knew weren't true or be slapped with a perjury charge?

What other witnesses, besides Goshe and Kaufman, did they threaten? How can we know?

And you made that statement in defense of the decision not the grant Collins a change of venue because the case had received publicity throughout the state.

Such an excuse could be used to make a similarly poor (if not another example of the rigging of the trial) decision in any case in any state.

Clearly the murders did not receive anywhere near the publicity they did in Ann-Arbor and Ypsilanti, nor would residents of Grand Rapids or Lansing have reason to follow them as closely.

You leave out a few of Collins' achievements. He was involved in burglaries and thefts of auto and motorcycle parts. In fact, his four motorcycles (two street bikes and two trail bikes) were made up of stolen parts. He was kicked out of his fraternity for stealing money from one of their funds. And then there was that camping trailer that he and Andrew Manuel stole by passing a forged check and using a false ID card, driving cross country with it and abandoning it in California.

It was also alleged that Collins and Arnold Davis worked a scam to steal cash from a department store where Davis worked. Collins would purchase a high price item like a stereo using a forged and worthless check, then return the item for cash.

Now, these instances of petty larceny, breaking and entry, burglary, and grand theft do not necessarily mean that Collins would commit murder as well, but it does go a long way in disproving any idea that he was a straight and narrow innocent guy. The term "misfit" does come to mind.

Yes, he did fancy himself a Ladies Man, and from many different sources, he was constantly looking for and approaching young women with offers of a ride in his car or on his motorcycle. And this feature of his personality and habits is something that fits into the common scenario of the Coed Murder victims' abductions.

Looking at the court documents regarding eyewitness testimony on the motorcycle, it does not appear that any of them changed their statements from what they told investigators in July 1969, until their appearance on the stand in court. Mrs. Goshe and Mrs. Spaulding both stated from beginning to end that they were not familiar with the make of motorcycle, but that it was blue, shiny, and had a square mirror when they saw John Norman Collins sitting on it outside the Wig Shop. Both identified Collins in court and both declined to identify his Triumph motorcycle which was also in the court room. Another eyewitness, Ms. Carol Wieczerza, however, DID identify Collins' blue Triumph 650 as the motorcycle she saw that same time and day.

It is true that Collins was only convicted of one murder - that of Karen Sue Beineman. He was found guilty of first degree murder and sentenced to the maximum of Life in Prison without parole.

There are probably a number of different reasons (all open to debate and speculation) as to why prosecutors declined to pursue convictions in the other cases. One would certainly be stated officially as being that they only charged him on the one in which they had the most evidence, and that with that conviction, they had already got the maximum sentence for him. If more modern methods and proofs were subsequently available, they could (and perhaps should) try him for other murders.

It is also very possible (and even likely) that Collins was not the lone killer of all the young women and girls. A comparison of the cases might lead investigators to connect them for various reasons - and by association of one to the other, to Collins. But to convict Collins, the evidence in each case would require a number of proofs which link him (and him alone) to that specific murder.

It is also true that just because one of the "Coed" cases was to be proven the work of another killer (as in the case of Jane Mixer's murder), it does not prove Collins innocent of the Beineman murder - or rule him out as participating in or committing the others.

There were, in fact, other disappearances, murders, and rapes of young women which took place in Michigan (and adjacent states and provinces) around the same time frame as the murders known as "the Coed Murders". Some of those crimes are still unsolved and open, while others were solved and convictions made.

In Michigan, in December 1968, the tortured and strangled body of a 14 year old girl named Eileen Adams was found near US 23 just south of Ypsilanti. It was believed by some in local law enforcement and press to be connected with the Coed cases, and it remained unsolved for some 40 years before Robert Bowman was convicted and sentenced to life in an Ohio prison for her murder.

Margaret Phillips, a University of Michigan grad student was murdered 5 July 1969 in her apartment by Ernest Bishop, Jr. and was for a short period of time considered as part of the Coed series. Bishop was judged not guilty by reason of insanity, committed to a mental hospital and released in 1974.

On 9 December 1968, Gloria Murphy (age 19) was stabbed to death in her Ann Arbor home, receiving multiple stab wounds. Her husband, James Murphy (age 21) was arrested and he confessed to killing her. He, like Bishop was found Not Guilty by reason of insanity, and sent to Ionia State Hospital. He too, was released by 1974.

There is a real possibility that there were other killers out there, not associated in any way with Collins that coincidentally committed murders on similar victims and using similar methods. But it is even more possible that Collins was in league with two or more others committing some or all of the Coed Murders. His two associates in other crimes and living arrangements; Arnold Davis and Andrew Manuel were both given immunity to testify against Collins in the Beineman trial. Both admitted to disposing of potential evidence.

Arnold Davis admitted to being in the car with Collins (and another man he declined to name) when Joan Schell was picked up the night of her murder. He claimed that Collins alone drove off with Schell in his own car the night of her murder, and that he mentioned the "coincidence" of her death to Collins - but didn't think it important enough to mention to police until he was questioned by them in 1969.

Andrew Manuel fled the state on or shortly after 26 July 1969 when police first became suspicious of Collins. Manuel served time in Michigan for grand theft of the camping trailer and went on to serve two separate prison terms for Federal crimes. One or both of them could well have been involved in the Coed murders.

 

[Richard]

And the source of information for this would be the cops who told witnesses that they would testify to things that they knew weren't true or be slapped with a perjury charge?

What other witnesses, besides Goshe and Kaufman, did they threaten? How can we know?

And you made that statement in defense of the decision not the grant Collins a change of venue because the case had received publicity throughout the state.

Such an excuse could be used to make a similarly poor (if not another example of the rigging of the trial) decision in any case in any state.

Clearly the murders did not receive anywhere near the publicity they did in Ann-Arbor and Ypsilanti, nor would residents of Grand Rapids or Lansing have reason to follow them as closely.

You would make a good defense lawyer, misrepresenting statements and their obvious meaning and context.

I did not offer any "excuse" for the judge's decision to deny a change of venue. He made that decision regardless of anything I have stated here. I do not know what reasoning went into his decision. And I certainly did not offer the comment to "excuse" any "rigging of the trial". Those are your words.

What I meant was the idea that pre-trail publicity was greater in Washtenaw County than other nearby counties, was simply not the case. Any of the nearby counties, to which the trial might have been moved, all received the same news coverage on the murders.

The largest circulation newspapers throughout southeastern Michigan (if not throughout the whole state) were the Detroit News and the Detroit Free Press (which you recently praised for their accurate reporting and sources). They covered the Coed Murders daily and in great detail.

Also, the strongest Television stations (in terms of transmitter power and area coverage) for all of Southeastern Michigan were the Detroit Channels; CBS (2), NBC (4), and ABC (7). The Canadian Broadcasting Company also had a strong transmitter located in Windsor, Ontario (channel 9). These stations all covered the Ypsilanti/Ann Arbor murders in great detail during prime time news casts.

Regardless of the pre-trial news coverage, jury selection was done in accordance with state law and lawyers on both sides had the opportunity to question potential jurors - and to challenge or excuse them for cause if they believed them to be prejudiced in any way. Additionally, the defense could have simply removed some of the jurors for no stated reason.

The defense DID request a change of venue, which was turned down. And they later included this in their appeals - all of which were ruled against by the appellate courts.

If a change of venue had been granted, the same prosecution and defense lawyers would have been arguing the case, and the same witnesses would have testified. It is hard to believe that a different jury would have reached a different conclusion, based on the evidence presented. I think it is likely that the defense would have argued their case the same way and probably would have appealed on all of the same points.

 

[Winward1]

The defense in Collins' case didn't misrepresent anything. They proved that Goshe, who had no explanation for why she changed her story about the motorcycle, was a liar.

Shortly after that, the prosecution had not a clue who ran from police after returning to the scene of the crime. You know, the one who police said was the killer. They had the opportunity to argue that it was Collins. Why did they choose not to? Because it's clear that it wasn't Collins. And if it wasn't Collins then Beineman's killer had to be someone else.

Speaking of the law, the standard for a criminal trial
is guilty beyond a reasonable doubt. No one disputes that Collins was among the smartest of his peers. Yet we're supposed to believe that he paraded his victim around the small town where he lived in broad daylight.

Not only that, we're supposed to believe that after presumably having killed numerous others and gotten away with it, he took Beineman to the home of one of his relatives, who was a cop, in order to murder her when all of the previous victims were slain in abandoned farmhouses and on the grounds of industrial businesses in the middle of the night.

I don't think I'm the only one who has a hard time buying this when we know that Collins seemed without motive, had no priors, denied all the charges and refused to enter a plea, etcetera. Like I said, it's not 1969 anymore. We know the standard of guilt was not met.

Meanwhile, now we know about someone the jury didn't know of and many to this day have yet to discover: Thoresen.

He just so happens to fit Collins' description.
He just so happens to have had places in Chicago and San Francisco.
He just so happens to have owned a Honda 350 motorcycle, one with more chrome than Collins' bikes.
He just so happens to have looked exactly like the guy who was seen in a car at Lake Berryessa, one that sounds like the car driven by the suspect who was aggressively trying to get Mary Fleszar into his car.
He just so happens to have been a suspect in numerous brutal murders (his brother, Valerie Percy, Judith Andersen) in the Midwest.

Collins was in school. What was Thoresen doing? He was not in school. He had not worked for years. He had plenty of money and vehicles and was traveling the country. He brutally assaulted people and committed bombings in Arizona. He went to prison for a brutal assault in Santa Monica, CA before being granted early parole.

We know that a lot of these unsolved cases, whether Sheila Collins, Roxie Phillips and Stephanie Casberg, appear to have been committed by the same person who murdered Beineman. And Thorsen just so happens to have connections to the places where these murders occurred.

He committed another brutal assault in Las Vegas. The feds confiscated over 70 TONs of guns, knives, flamethrowers, grenades, land mines and cannons from his home and storage lockers. When he died, a mysterious book, which in places seems not to make sense, appeared about his life. No one seems to know who owns the rights to this book and, inexplicably, it has no photo credits in it though it says it was published in New York.

One has to wonder, what in the heck all did this guy do? Because this kind of thing with books just does not happen. But if you know of another such a case in which it did, please let me know.

 

[Winward1]

It’s not impossible that a guy with a background like Collins (no priors) murdered Karen Beineman.
It’s just not probable.

It’s not impossible that Collins paraded Beineman around his town on a motorcycle before he murdered her.
It’s just not probable.

It’s not impossible that Collins, a 21-year old, was able to get away with killing some or all of the other victims who were killed by the Michigan Coed Killer.
It’s just not probable.

It’s not impossible that the guy who ran from the Beineman crime scene was not her killer.
It’s just not probable.

It’s not impossible that Collins killed one, more, or all of the other victims in remote places but for some odd, unexplained reason chose to kill Beineman at his relative/a cop’s house.
It’s just not probable.

It’s clear that if Collins killed Beineman all of these unlikely scenarios (with the exception of #3) had to have happened. That’s not me glossing over anything else about Collins (which isn’t relevant as to whether he murdered Beineman anyway.)

It’s just obvious.

 

[Richard]

Just a few points of observation:

Your constant instance that Mrs. Goshe changed her identification of the motorcycle she saw outside her store is not true. She stated from start to finish that she did not know what the make or model was and she did NOT identify Collins' (stolen) motorcycle in court as the one she saw. She DID, however, identify Collins as the person she saw drive off on a motorcycle with Karen Sue Beineman.

Karen was linked forensically to the Leik basement. Investigators found where someone had been recently attached by wire to copper pipes attached to the floor joists, and marks from wires were found on Karen's wrists and ankles. Hairs from the Leik children which were on the basement floor were located inside her body, and fresh blood of her type was found in places in that basement - in spite of Collins' efforts to clean and paint over the area.

Only John Norman Collins had a key to the Leik house. There was no forced entry. Collins, himself, has admitted - verbally and in writing - that he did, in fact, take Karen to that house. He went on to claim that his room mate, Arnold Davis joined them there and killed Karen, and that he, Collins, later that evening assisted Davis in disposing of Karen's body.

Collins did not parade Karen around town. He gave her a two block ride to the Wig shop and then waited for her to come out. At that point, he convinced her to get back on his motorcycle for a ride back to her dorm. Obviously, he took her instead directly to the Leik house.

Collins was in the habit of offering coeds rides in his car or on his motorcycle. His mistake was killing Karen after he had been spotted and later identified. Just as the murders had increased in number and as the time interval between them was decreasing, he made the mistake that led to his capture.

The autopsy of Karen's body indicated that her digestion process stopped between one half hour and three hours after her last meal, placing the time of death between 1 pm and 3 pm on 23 July 1969. It could have stopped earlier than her actual death if she was placed in a situation in which she feared death was imminent. This would mean that Collins could have secured Karen to the pipes in the basement of the Leik house, still alive, gone to the cycle shop, and then to the fast food place, before returning to the Leik house to kill her.

It is also possible that he was accompanied by Andrew Manuel and/or Arnold Davis - his two alibi witnesses for that afternoon. If more than one killer murdered Karen, it is very possible that one of the others returned to the body dump site on the evening of 26 July, while Collins was supposedly at a party in Ortonville.

The testimony of Michele Flanders (a Michigan State University art student) was that a John Collins was with her and some friends throughout the day and evening of 26 July 1969 - the day that Karen's body was found and the stakeout of the area set up. She was a defense witness who was called to establish that Collins could not have been the person who was seen running in the vicinity of the stakeout that evening. It should be noted that there were six Michigan State University students by the name of John Collins in 1969.

It is also noteworthy that Collins and Davis were both interviewed by a police officer at their residence on 26 July and that when police started a surveillance of the house that same day, Davis approached them and asked why they were watching the house. When asked where Collins was, Davis told them that he was at his mother's home in Centerline (not in Ortonville). The next day, 27 July 1969, Collins was, indeed, seen at his mother's Centerline house thoroughly cleaning his Oldsmobile inside and out.

Most - if not all - of the Michigan Coed victims were victims of opportunity. That is, they were picked up at random places, hitch hiking, waiting for a ride, or simply walking alone somewhere. The murder sites were likely places of opportunity as well. Only three actual sites at which killing took place were located. All the bodies had been dumped in places away from the actual murder sites. It is believed that Dawn Basom was killed in the basement of an abandoned farm house. It was believed that Alice Kalom was murdered in a driveway or side road. And it was believed that Karen Sue Beineman was killed in the Leik basement.

Collins had been asked to feed the Leik's German Shepherd dog, which was kept in the garage, but he had also been given a key to the house when the Leik family went away on vacation on or about 17 July 1969. The house was, therefore, available to him on 23 July. Upon their return from vacation, it was immediately noticed by Collins' aunt that certain items were missing from the basement and that there was fresh spray paint in various areas.

 

[Winward1]

There's no dispute that all of the initial reports said the motorcycle was a Honda, police were threatening cooperative witnesses in this case, and Goshe was proven to be a liar. This, along with the no change in venue reeks like heck.

Otherwise, it's possible Collins did these things but it's far from probable, and that's not even getting into Thoresen, evidence he was the MCK (Michigan Coed Killer) what happened to him and when, and all the evidence of a coverup of his story.

As my last post states, it's not impossible that Collins did some of these things but they're all highly improbable individually and more improbable collectively, which would have been required to Collins to have been responsible for Beineman alone.

What a jury bought in 1969 is irrelevant. Most people here know that whomever killed Beineman was a ten (ten being most extreme) on the psycho scale. Collins wasn't qualified to commit this murder, had no motive to do it and there are good reasons to believe it was Zodiac, who just so happened to have emerged a few days after the man running from the crime scene made his escape.

 

[Richard]

There's no dispute that all of the initial reports said the motorcycle was a Honda, police were threatening cooperative witnesses in this case, and Goshe was proven to be a liar. This, along with the no change in venue reeks like heck.

Otherwise, it's possible Collins did these things but it's far from probable, and that's not even getting into Thoresen, evidence he was the MCK (Michigan Coed Killer) what happened to him and when, and all the evidence of a coverup of his story.

As my last post states, it's not impossible that Collins did some of these things but they're all highly improbable individually and more improbable collectively, which would have been required to Collins to have been responsible for Beineman alone.

What a jury bought in 1969 is irrelevant. Most people here know that whomever killed Beineman was a ten (ten being most extreme) on the psycho scale. Collins wasn't qualified to commit this murder, had no motive to do it and there are good reasons to believe it was Zodiac, who just so happened to have emerged a few days after the man running from the crime scene made his escape.

Mrs. Goshe did admit on the stand as to having lied in an earlier instance when she claimed to be married, but was in fact not legally married. She claimed that this was to protect her son. All of her testimony regarding John Norman Collins and his connection to Karen Sue Beineman was corroborated by Mrs. Spaulding, who was also present with her at the Wig Shop - and who also identified Collins in court as the person seen with Karen.

In regard to the Zodiac case (leaving Thoresen out of the equation for the time being), Zodiac was "known" positively to have made four attacks on seven different victims between December 1968 and October 1969. All of those attacks involved sudden deadly action. All four attacks involved use of a handgun, and one also involving the use of a long knife or dagger type implement. Two of his victims, although badly wounded, survived.

In all these four cases, the unknown suspect, who called himself Zodiac, left the bodies where they fell. He did not move or transport them. He also contacted police to taunt them and to take credit for these attacks. In follow-on messages and writings (some disputed as the work of another), Zodiac claimed other "kills" - some of which were solved with the arrest and conviction of others. At no time did Zodiac claim or make reference to the Michigan Coed Murders which occurred in the same general time frame.

The Michigan Coed murders had a number of factors in common with each other, but which were in contrast to the known Zodiac murders. Each Michigan case involved the apparently random/opportunistic abduction (by guile and by force) of lone girls or young women. They were abducted by one to three males in a vehicle. In each case the victim was transported to a remote site where she was killed after being stripped, sexually molested, tortured, and beaten. Her body was then moved to another remote site and dumped. It is known that the killer or killers did return on occasions to visit at least some of the bodies. The Zodiac killer did not do any of this with his victims in California. The methods in comparison were totally different.

It is possible that one or more of the Michigan Coed murders were committed by a separate perpetrator who was not connected with the main killer(s). In fact, the Mixer murder would be a case in point - as would be the murders of Margaret Phillips, Gloria Murphy, and Eileen Adams, which were tentatively (in 1969) suggested as part of the "Coed" pattern.

One of those known Michigan area killers could have been responsible for one of the "Coed" cases. For example, Robert Bowman (killer of Eileen Adams) might be considered a possible suspect in the murder of Dawn Basom because of certain similarities in the cases. But there are more similarities in the Basom case and other Coed murders which connect them.

Actually, what the jury "bought" regarding Collins is very relevant. They found him guilty of Karen Sue Beineman's murder, and that conviction still stands after all of his appeals. The only thing that would change it at this point, 51 years later, would be for solid evidence that he did NOT kill her - such as DNA proving that it was someone else - perhaps coupled with a verifiable confession by the "real" killer.

The murders of Mary Fleszar, Joan Schell, Maralynn Skelton, Dawn Basom, Alice Kalom, and Roxie Phillips remain unsolved, although most investigators believe that Collins was responsible for them.