ID - 4 University of Idaho Students Murdered - Moscow # 38

[vike16]

One thing I want to note: Is LE absolutely in their rights to keep everything close to the vest? Absolutely. But I can also guarantee the city and the U of I are hemorrhaging cash right now. Imagine trying to recruit students for the spring semester or next fall semester with this hanging over the city's head. Many people are studying remote right now and that will pick up the longer it goes, not to mention transfers to other universities in other places. We're in the middle of Christmas break right now and I can guarantee if nothing happens between now and then, more people will study remote if not transfer out for spring semester altogether. This all has an effect on commerce, etc, since it's a college town. Like I said, I feel bad for LE as they are literally between a rock and a hard place on this one. I can guarantee you that the longer this goes with this little information, the more people will be looking at leaving Moscow altogether if they can afford to do so.

 

[Sister Golden Hair]

"Investigators believe someone has information that adds context to what occurred on the night of the murders and continue requesting additional pictures, video, and social media content."

Some clarification... MOO>>>I think the original poster was saying LE thinks there may be more *involved* which is a bit of a misrepresentation. In their statement, LE thinks some may be *holding back*...but I see what poster may have meant. LE is throwing in the proverbial *Kitchen Sink* with this request because they're still woefully lacking a clear path. MOO.

Spitballing here but potentially imo:

maybe LE thinks that the killer stalked K&M or E&X and the killer will potentially show up in multiple places near one of the pairs, and maybe if LE gets enough photos/videos, they'll find that person in the background multiple places, so as many angles, as innocuous as the photos may seem to be, maybe they'll find that face in the crowd? could that be a reason? JMO and asking.

 

[GGbankster]

If the Elantra belongs to a close or social members of the students, wouldn't one of them reported that information to LE by now?

Moo, the answer to that I believe is from bullet 3 in the new press release


• “Investigators believe someone has information that adds context to what occurred on the night of the murders and continue requesting additional pictures, video, and social media content. Our focus remains on the investigation, not an individual’s activities displayed in the tip. Whether you believe it is significant or not, your information might be one of the puzzle pieces that help solve these murders. Digital submission of tips and leads will not be publicly disclosed due to our ongoing commitment to keep information private and details may be pertinent to the ongoing criminal investigation.”

Moo, more likely that LE believe someone (maybe a student/s) have information but some personal circumstances maybe preventing them to come forward (underage drinking, illegal drugs etc). Therefore LE is basically telling these people that they can come forward with information and that whatever individual activities they did the night before or during the murder isn’t the focus of their investigation.

 

[jjleroche]

<modsnip - quoted posts were removed>

I've tried to respond to 10 of Rods' post in previous thread unsuccessfully, so have cut and pasted here - hope that's OK - unsure how else to it (technically challenged)

This is 10 of Rods excellent post. (Apologies to The Observer and everyone for my intrusion)

"I hadn't really thought about this, but maybe K and M didn't make the calls?
My DH keeps asking about that and I've had that thought too (there are so many small elements to this case, but it has occurred to me that the killer was already in the house, took the phones, made the calls and at least one text). But had he already killed the two women? Doesn't seem consistent with the timeline established by...the Coroner? (By now, you should all know that I am a teeny bit skeptical about her statements, as they seem to change over time).

Unfortunately, Kaylee's sister has already gone public with the fact that Kaylee "always called people up in the middle of the night," sometimes dialing over and over and then asking what she should have for breakfast and regarding this as a prank."

(Surely, this could have happened to the sister - but did Kaylee really do that in general? If not, I sure wish the sister hadn't already said that she did).

 

[Seraphim]

I am baffled. The killer can’t be that lucky to avoid being recognized at all by security cameras. The FBI have top quality imaging equipment to clean up video. Thinking the license plates was removed. This killing was planned down to the last detail.

Wouldn’t the University have a complete list of every students car that is authorized to park on campus? They should have model make and plates for every car parked on campus.

 

[jr1]

Jodi Arias shows anyone can kill with a knife. I think we've been conditioned by movies like Rambo that only a military type could do this

 

[al66pine]

HUNTERS USING KNIVES to KILL ANIMALS???

.... hunters do sometimes kill an animal with a knife (not sure what I can link here, so just using this one from npr: When We Hunt, Do We Murder?)....

snipped for focus. @Sister Golden Hair

Link ^ cites exactly one example of "hunter using knife to kill
deer." After shooting deer, which was still able to run. Hunter followed deer, then put a knife in the jugular, ending its life.

Yes, this (first shot is not fatal, hunter uses knife to cause fatal injury) happens from time to time, but imo does not lend credence to argument that hunters use knives to kill game, as if that accounts for a significant amt of wildlife deaths.

Nor does it imo support line of reasoning that hunters' experience helps to ACCURATELY inflict a FATAL stab to a human.
imo jmo moo

(Or maybe your post was not intended to argue that point.)

 

[jjleroche]

I've tried to respond to 10 of Rods' post in previous thread unsuccessfully, so have cut and pasted here - hope that's OK - unsure how else to it (technically challenged)

This is 10 of Rods excellent post. (Apologies to The Observer and everyone for my intrusion)

"I hadn't really thought about this, but maybe K and M didn't make the calls?
My DH keeps asking about that and I've had that thought too (there are so many small elements to this case, but it has occurred to me that the killer was already in the house, took the phones, made the calls and at least one text). But had he already killed the two women? Doesn't seem consistent with the timeline established by...the Coroner? (By now, you should all know that I am a teeny bit skeptical about her statements, as they seem to change over time).

Unfortunately, Kaylee's sister has already gone public with the fact that Kaylee "always called people up in the middle of the night," sometimes dialing over and over and then asking what she should have for breakfast and regarding this as a prank."

(Surely, this could have happened to the sister - but did Kaylee really do that in general? If not, I sure wish the sister hadn't already said that she did).

10 of Rods actually wrote above pots, and this is my response.
Everything about this slaughter is utterly chilling. IMO the above scenario is absolutely feasible, which, to me makes it even more chilling. Had Kaylee's ex responded by coming over to her place, I believe it's highly likely, given the above scenario, that he would have also been murdered. JMO

 

[Lalalacasbah]

IMO JMO and per the idaho leg, one does not become an accomplice by accidentally giving a murderer a ride:

Section 18-205 – Idaho State Legislature

legislature.idaho.gov

(1) Willfully withhold or conceal it from a peace officer, judge, magistrate, grand jury or trial jury; or
(2) Harbor and protect a person who committed such felony or who has been charged with or convicted thereof.

Willfully withhold or protect, and that's deep kimchee.
And keeping that secret out of fear is a good way to die if a homicidal maniac knows you know that he's killed four people. just my opinion but just saying.

edited b/c I quoted incorrectly


IMO JMO luck is when planning met opportunity in this case. the killer likely scouted all of the cameras, stuck to the darker area of the neighborhood, and got rid of the Elantra quickly and completely. JMO with enough planning, he could be this lucky.

Yes hypothetical example and semantics, maybe not accomplice per se but after 6 weeks and if there's people who know something, are protecting someone and are not coming forward as LE has asked - that could and should be a problem.

Lots of people keep secrets about murders. In my province (Canada) 6-7 "friends" (with a ring leader) beat and killed a teenage girl (Reena Virk). They made a pact not to talk. I think it took 2-3 months before a few started talking. Also Lindsay Buziak in my province, still no one charged for a heinous crime that at least 2-3 people were involved in the conspiracy to plan and set it up. No one has cracked yet on that one.

 

[10ofRods]

…or perhaps, (and this is ONLY my own personal opinion), the killer targeted the home as it was inhabited by females. With the inner struggle, rage, and screaming growing more incessant by the day - he is overwhelmed with the compulsion to kill (once again). With the all-consuming sense to kill and dominate them to gain a twisted and morbid sense of sexual satisfaction/gratification through direct annihilation (he’s beyond compelled). It’s an added bonus that he feels exhilarated in his victory (fourfold) over death. They are deceased and HE is still alive. Every day which passes makes him feel more alive and in control. A clear winner by all accounts. With an above average intel, this will prove difficult (but not impossible). It was committed by a human being, and the truth is being sought by human beings. It’s definitely solvable. JMOO

Thank you for this. This gives me a lot to think about, not a lot written about this phase, this topic,

 

[Sister Golden Hair]

Yes hypothetical example and semantics, maybe not accomplice per se but after 6 weeks and if there's people who know something, are protecting someone and are not coming forward as LE has asked - that could and should be a problem.

Lots of people keep secrets about murders. In my province (Canada) 6-7 "friends" (with a ring leader) beat and killed a teenage girl (Reena Virk). They made a pact not to talk. I think it took 2-3 months before a few started talking. Also Lindsay Buziak in my province, still no one charged for a heinous crime that at least 2-3 people were involved in the conspiracy to plan and set it up. No one has cracked yet on that one.

true re letting 6 weeks pass. After 6 weeks and saying nothing, they're a willing accomplice according to the law, not an accidental one. And not saying people don't keep secrets about murders, just saying it's not a safe or sensible choice.

 

[Lalalacasbah]

true re letting 6 weeks pass. After 6 weeks and saying nothing, they're a willing accomplice according to the law, not an accidental one. And not saying people don't keep secrets about murders, just saying it's not a safe or sensible choice.

Yes agree! Accidental/unintended if someone gave someone a ride in a white car before or after a murder not knowing a murder would occur at that moment in time, but with ongoing silence so long after the fact - definitely going into accomplice territory.

 

[Sister Golden Hair]

HUNTERS USING KNIVES to KILL ANIMALS???
snipped for focus. @Sister Golden Hair

Link ^ cites exactly one example of "hunter using knife to kill
deer." After shooting deer, which was still able to run. Hunter followed deer, then put a knife in the jugular, ending its life.

Yes, this (first shot is not fatal, hunter uses knife to cause fatal injury) happens from time to time, but imo does not lend credence to argument that hunters use knives to kill game, as if that accounts for a significant amt of wildlife deaths.

Nor does it imo support line of reasoning that hunters' experience helps to ACCURATELY inflict a FATAL stab to a human.
imo jmo moo

(Or maybe your post was not intended to argue that point.)

I googled it, and yes, I found other examples of hunters using knives to kill animals. That was only one link - as I said. I found more but wasn't sure what I could post, and I said that as well.

My post was not to argue that point, however. My post was to point out that potentially the skills, the cruelty, the disconnect, the down and dirty of what it takes to kill something and let it bleed out, reach in, cut out its heart, eviscerate or whatever, is what a killer might do to practice before starting on humans. That was the point. And a killer in training might very well use hunting to practice - and that killer in training might use a knife. jmo imo.

 

[Palinsmom]

This might be a stretch of sorts, but I wonder if somehow letting individuals know that if they come forward with that missing important piece of the puzzle they will be provided with police protection if needed.

I can’t begin to imagine the fear some of those students must feel right now.

 

[al66pine]

Is Uni. Free to Provide Student Vehicle Reg. Info to LE?

Wouldn’t the University have a complete list of every students car that is authorized to park on campus? They should have model make and plates for every car parked on campus.

@Seraphim
Yep, uni. has info re student vehicles reg'ed to park on campus.

The question is whether Family Educational Rights and Privacy Act of 1974 (FERPA) or another fed or state statute would preclude uni from providing this info to LE, w'out warrant, subpoena, ct order.

Hoping one of our uni experts here will weigh in.

____________________________________
*Family Educational Rights and Privacy Act - Wikipedia

Privacy in education - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[rahod1]

Jodi Arias shows anyone can kill with a knife. I think we've been conditioned by movies like Rambo that only a military type could do this

True. As a recall, it took her two minutes to kill her victim in the shower/bathroom. Do you think she could accomplish killing four people in pairs..where one was a 6Ft male? Yes, they were asleep when attacted....still a daunting task for just *anyone*. MOO.

 

[blackbeary]

I

Moo, the answer to that I believe is from bullet 3 in the new press release


• “Investigators believe someone has information that adds context to what occurred on the night of the murders and continue requesting additional pictures, video, and social media content. Our focus remains on the investigation, not an individual’s activities displayed in the tip. Whether you believe it is significant or not, your information might be one of the puzzle pieces that help solve these murders. Digital submission of tips and leads will not be publicly disclosed due to our ongoing commitment to keep information private and details may be pertinent to the ongoing criminal investigation.”

Moo, more likely that LE believe someone (maybe a student/s) have information but some personal circumstances maybe preventing them to come forward (underage drinking, illegal drugs etc). Therefore LE is basically telling these people that they can come forward with information and that whatever individual activities they did the night before or during the murder isn’t the focus of their investigation.

I've even thought about a friend or relative coming to Moscow and visit a student or some family for a few days. Maybe they are like me, I wouldn't know a Elantra from any other white car, unless it's vintage, a street machine or luxury SUV. Maybe they are thinking, that's my Dad, he would never do anything like this, so I won't say anything.

 

[isabella88]

Branmuffin wrote this fine post:






What an excellent set of topics. When I was first trained, we were told never to use the terms "sociopath" or "psychopath" and yet, researchers all around the world kept using them. Sometime after 2000, there was a cautious attempt by psychologists to redefine these terms and discuss them. This discussion, in fact, is stalling a new edition of DSM from coming out (well, it's just part of the reason).

ANYWAY, let's start with the milder term (sociopath, or Antisocial PD). Almost exactly the same things could be said about Narcissistic PD, so keep that in mind. If a person has a baseline personality of Antisocial but also shows features of other antisocial traits from other diagnostic categories, what do we call them? Increasingly, journals in psychology are using the term "sociopath." I heard a colleague say recently that the difference between a sociopath and a psychopath is that they are both capable of lopping your head off with a sword, but the sociopath knows better than to carry the head around with him.

Sociopaths (and more rarely psychopaths) DO find their way into management positions. When they do, it's an awful thing for the people who work under them. They are vaguely scary to most people with sensitivity to the emotions of those around them and they may indeed be capable of almost any sort of fraud, lie, embezzlement, theft - and ultimately, nepotism, other law breaking etc. How far will they go to cover up what they do? Very far and that's when we see an Alex Murdaugh kind of person. Narcissistic PD is similar. The good news is that while Narcissistic PD is increasing rather dramatically according to psychometrists and their journals, Antisocial PD is not increasing as rapidly (it's thought to have gone down dramatically since 1970, mostly due to improved birth control and availability of reproductive rights, but that remains to be seen).

In any hierarchy, there's a top dog. I've been pretty amazed at how straightforward and congenial Chief Fry has been in his leadership role. Looks like a great guy to me. As compared to those young people who are coming out on the body cams and lying or falsely apologizing to police. They aren't sorry they got caught - they are going to do it again the next week or the next day (Sept 1-2, LE records from Moscow PD). Yet, the leaders of these houses (not just the ones on fraternity row, but including some private houses where students live) seem to need this quality of lying, dissembling, pointing blame elsewhere, etc. Are these situations creating Future Leaders who are antisocial?

Sociopaths and psychopaths do not have the same yin/yang going on. They do not get a visceral, basically anxious response when they get ideas for bad action (including thoughts). The mere thought of ruining my family's financial life makes me anxious; to some extent studying crime makes me anxious, as just imagining moral transgression is a bit anxiety producing. For a normal person.

Try and imagine someone who can fantasize increasingly awful things (think about what's happened in the Dark Web and how we now actually have to face societal problems like CSA and CP because enough people do not, apparently, have automatic (autonomic included) responses to bad behavior. We know from toddler and pre-school studies that even small children get anxious responses even if their mother tells them doing a naughty thing is okay (like spilling paint on the floor). Kindergarten teachers are remarkably good at leading researchers to the kids-without-consciences. And there are likely genes involved.

Does anyone really want to know all this though? Do we as a society want better ways to deal with this? What happens when a person is APD, NPD and something else? It's more and more common (or we're using our diagnostics differently - or perhaps more sensitively).

Anyway, long post (again) but this crime has us all aghast and I am personally agitated by it and worried for LE as well as the poor families. No one is prepared for what appears to be an actual psychopath (some who leaves dead bodies in plain sight, four of them, waiting to alarm an entire community - a whole nation, perhaps the entire world). Wants to scare and thereby control all of us.

I think we need to be careful about diagnosing people before they are identified. And even after that, for that matter. Psychopath and sociopath are very overused terms in society. It's easy to want to think of killers like the one(s) in this case in those terms but sometimes people just do terrible things. Just because academia uses those terms does not make it correct and it may be dangerous. But we don't know ANY of this about the perp in this case yet.

 

[blackbeary]

I've tried to respond to 10 of Rods' post in previous thread unsuccessfully, so have cut and pasted here - hope that's OK - unsure how else to it (technically challenged)

This is 10 of Rods excellent post. (Apologies to The Observer and everyone for my intrusion)

"I hadn't really thought about this, but maybe K and M didn't make the calls?
My DH keeps asking about that and I've had that thought too (there are so many small elements to this case, but it has occurred to me that the killer was already in the house, took the phones, made the calls and at least one text). But had he already killed the two women? Doesn't seem consistent with the timeline established by...the Coroner? (By now, you should all know that I am a teeny bit skeptical about her statements, as they seem to change over time).

Unfortunately, Kaylee's sister has already gone public with the fact that Kaylee "always called people up in the middle of the night," sometimes dialing over and over and then asking what she should have for breakfast and regarding this as a prank."

(Surely, this could have happened to the sister - but did Kaylee really do that in general? If not, I sure wish the sister hadn't already said that she did).

I've wondered who made those phone calls, too.

 

[al66pine]

HUNTERS USING KNIVES

I googled it, and yes, I found other examples of hunters using knives to kill animals. That was only one link - as I said. I found more but wasn't sure what I could post, and I said that as well.

My post was not to argue that point, however. My post was to point out that potentially the skills, the cruelty, the disconnect, the down and dirty of what it takes to kill something and let it bleed out, reach in, cut out its heart, eviscerate or whatever, is what a killer might do to practice before starting on humans. That was the point. And a killer in training might very well use hunting to practice - and that killer in training might use a knife. jmo imo.

@Sister Golden Hair Thank you for responding to clarify your point.
I got side-tracked w ref. to service animals and w link's first sentence "When people hunt and kill animals for sport, are they committing murder?"

And yes, sometimes it's difficult to know about Websleuths' ToS and whether a certain link to a certain source is acceptable, esp'ly for newish members. Occasionally even grizzled old vets like me cannot easily determine.
Keep on postin.'