Which came first, Strangulation or Head Trauma???

[UKGuy]

You are correct, UKGuy: it doesn't prove she killed her; it proves she was involved in the cover-up attempt.

SuperDave,
Thanks, unless you think it was Patsy that hid the genital injury because it was her that inflicted it, then it might just be that it was John that did the initial cleanup with Patsy finishing off the staging, this might explain why Patsy lies in ignorance about the size-12's?

I reckon Patsy and John were in this up to their necks, and if you consider that search warrants were issued to look for *advertiser censored*, then they were looking for prima facia evidence to back up precisely a suspicion of something a little more organised than a rage attack?

.

 

[UKGuy]

..but then why rearrange her hair,adding ponytails? ..from all accounts,it appears that's what happened,as if it was an attempt to hide the head injury.
yes,and also the private meeting held in the R's attorney's office,which JR outlines in DOI,even stating he'd asked if whatever was said could be just between them?


I think so,too.The RN was a task-minded event;the R's don't just arbitrarily do anything,everything is done w reason.I think it was the Hodges book that went even further,even adding cancer into the mix...that's just going a bit too far for someone who needs an explanation for their dead daughter's body in the house!
That said,you mentioned earlier that a RN would not be needed if her body were to be found outdoors.But..the R's overdid it,and in a moment of panic,weren't thinking rationally,IMO.But I don't think they intended,at least at first...for her to be found at all.The RN and the 'denying her remains' content,was to be an explanation as to why her body was never found...they called LE,and so she's been killed,never to be seen again.This would explain JR's concern over the walk-in fridge..(a place to keep her body till something could be done otherwise).It appears the RN was also intended to direct attention away from friends or anyone who would help JR do this...they are foreigners,not from the US.
I got the overall feeling that JR thought Thomas may have been onto this prior plan (and perhaps he does know more than he can say,if that's what happened),so he offered up explanations for things that didn't really need one..no reason to explain his prints on the fridge,for one thing..that's just overdoing it.I got the feeling JR was afraid someone had spilled the beans on that,to some extent?

JMO8778,

..but then why rearrange her hair,adding ponytails? ..from all accounts,it appears that's what happened,as if it was an attempt to hide the head injury.

Thats part of another staging phase, one part is too inflict fake injuries to confuse investigators, the next is an attempt to normalise JonBenet's appearance?

yes,and also the private meeting held in the R's attorney's office,which JR outlines in DOI,even stating he'd asked if whatever was said could be just between them?

And Lou Smit was only being paid to do a good PI job!

I got the overall feeling that JR thought Thomas may have been onto this prior plan (and perhaps he does know more than he can say,if that's what happened),so he offered up explanations for things that didn't really need one..no reason to explain his prints on the fridge,for one thing..that's just overdoing it.I got the feeling JR was afraid someone had spilled the beans on that,to some extent?

Yes, good thoughts here, JR was either attempting to confuse Thomas or explain away any missed evidence. I reckon Thomas knew about a prior staging since once Lou Smit started his intruder blitz, the investigators must have wondered whats being covered up here?

No ransom note was needed at all! All Patsy need do is go downstairs and dial 911 and scream "My baby has gone" , "JonBenet is missing, can you send someone". With JonBenet lying down in the basement, nothing changes, it can still be blamed on an intruder. The ransom note is superfluous, its redundant, it flags up staging big time.


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[angelwngs]

If there is a kidnapping and a ransom note, the child would not be found dead in her own home.

If there is no ransom note and the child is found dead in her own home, with all objects used in the crime found to have come from within the home, it immediately suggests that someone inside the home probably killed the child.

A ransom note suggesting a kidnapping, with all items which were used in the crime coming from within the home, and instead of a kidnapping the murdered child is found inside the home points to someone from within the home having killed the child.

Why were the R's upset that the media and the LE thought they did it?

EVERYTHING LOGICALLY points straight to the R's!

 

[JMO8778]

Thanks, unless you think it was Patsy that hid the genital injury because it was her that inflicted it, then it might just be that it was John that did the initial cleanup with Patsy finishing off the staging, this might explain why Patsy lies in ignorance about the size-12's?

I've wondered about that,too.Either way,it's clear they didn't communicate to each other about that afterwards.

I reckon Patsy and John were in this up to their necks, and if you consider that search warrants were issued to look for *advertiser censored*, then they were looking for prima facia evidence to back up precisely a suspicion of something a little more organised than a rage attack?

.

indeed,I think Patsy gave that away in DOI,when she said LE suspected them of using JB for such,and as a sub for herself.and Patsy added 'how sick!' to that suspicion,and (can I borrow your term here SD...a hit dog barks?!) and all of us know that LE doesn't suspect anything without good reason! also consider the excess grooming of JB for the pageants,to act and appear an adult,the addition of platinum blond hair (which she lied about),to the point where friends noticed the 'mega-JB' thing she was creating and planned an intervention after Christmas.
Perhaps Thomas was hinting about that in his book,when he mentioned Patsy didn't want the blond B**** down the st. to get JR..perhaps she was trying feverishly to 'keep him at home',so to speak?? if Patsy did it,then it appears that could have been part of her breaking point,even if she did have prior knowledge,the combo of stress of the holidays,having to consult Dr Beuf and keep it all confidential,perhaps a drink or two,the med they were q'd about...all were too much and she cracked,not being able to handle the image of JB she created,the JB that competed directly with her,in her mind,and was so much better than she herself...JAT.

 

[UKGuy]

I've wondered about that,too.Either way,it's clear they didn't communicate to each other about that afterwards.

indeed,I think Patsy gave that away in DOI,when she said LE suspected them of using JB for such,and as a sub for herself.and Patsy added 'how sick!' to that suspicion,and (can I borrow your term here SD...a hit dog barks?!) and all of us know that LE doesn't suspect anything without good reason! also consider the excess grooming of JB for the pageants,to act and appear an adult,the addition of platinum blond hair (which she lied about),to the point where friends noticed the 'mega-JB' thing she was creating and planned an intervention after Christmas.
Perhaps Thomas was hinting about that in his book,when he mentioned Patsy didn't want the blond B**** down the st. to get JR..perhaps she was trying feverishly to 'keep him at home',so to speak?? if Patsy did it,then it appears that could have been part of her breaking point,even if she did have prior knowledge,the combo of stress of the holidays,having to consult Dr Beuf and keep it all confidential,perhaps a drink or two,the med they were q'd about...all were too much and she cracked,not being able to handle the image of JB she created,the JB that competed directly with her,in her mind,and was so much better than she herself...JAT.

JMO8778,

I've wondered about that,too.Either way,it's clear they didn't communicate to each other about that afterwards.

Sure, not afterwards and not at the time of the crime either. Otherwise Patsy would have known not to make up a story that she cannot substantiate. Anyway I'll bet all the woman out there reckon there is no way Patsy would elect to redress JonBenet in size-12's she herself purchased recently, thus linking herself directly to the crime-scene, never mind the aesthetics of it all, when there are other size-6's available. The argument is simple if you want to suggest JonBenet redressed herself in those size-12's sometime after arriving home, then same argument can apply to the size-6's. The day of the week does not matter when contrasted with size!

The size-12's are a guy's idea of redressing JonBenet so she looked like she did prior to her death. They are a staging error and every woman knows they would never have dressed JonBenet in size-12's!

indeed,I think Patsy gave that away in DOI,when she said LE suspected them of using JB for such,and as a sub for herself.and Patsy added 'how sick!' to that suspicion,and (can I borrow your term here SD...a hit dog barks?!) and all of us know that LE doesn't suspect anything without good reason! also consider the excess grooming of JB for the pageants,to act and appear an adult,the addition of platinum blond hair (which she lied about),to the point where friends noticed the 'mega-JB' thing she was creating and planned an intervention after Christmas.

Sure, just like when she defended John against allegations of incest. Gee Whiz us millionaires doing stuff like that, no way, Nedra was there! I would like to hear or read about any statements made by friends regarding this excess grooming, because this and 911 call from the party suggests something was dynamically brewing. JonBenet's pageant grooming, the collection of photographs dumped in the basement, and the evidence of prior molestation e.g. Meyer's report and verbatim remarks, all serve to suggest something a little more organised than a simple rage accident occurred?


.

 

[UKGuy]

If there is a kidnapping and a ransom note, the child would not be found dead in her own home.

If there is no ransom note and the child is found dead in her own home, with all objects used in the crime found to have come from within the home, it immediately suggests that someone inside the home probably killed the child.

A ransom note suggesting a kidnapping, with all items which were used in the crime coming from within the home, and instead of a kidnapping the murdered child is found inside the home points to someone from within the home having killed the child.

Why were the R's upset that the media and the LE thought they did it?

EVERYTHING LOGICALLY points straight to the R's!

angelwngs,

A ransom note suggesting a kidnapping, with all items which were used in the crime coming from within the home, and instead of a kidnapping the murdered child is found inside the home points to someone from within the home having killed the child.

Thats pretty straight forward reasoning, and if the killer does not take the body after hanging around to author a ransom note, why would you ever believe it was an Abduction Case? All answers on a postcard to CASKU.


Even if the Ramsey's are innocent, someone should ask John, is Oprah reading, what does he think of the evidence sugesting that JonBenet had been chronically molested?


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[JMO8778]

Even if the Ramsey's are innocent, someone should ask John, is Oprah reading, what does he think of the evidence sugesting that JonBenet had been chronically molested?


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well it sure didn't come from the bubble baths,like Dr Beuf goof said! anyone w any medical or anatomy knowledge at all (even so,it's just straighfwd common sense) knows that just isn't possible,esp. not in a child that age!
..and Dr Beuf goof even goes on to say the cure for that was 'plain water baths' ...I'm just rolling my eyes on that one!! thing is,I wonder what scripts he DID write for JB,as it seems that was no more than a CYA remark! AS in,'nope,I didn't write any scripts for that,just recommended the plain water baths......'. umm....yea.............he talks to the world the same way Patsy and John do...like we were all born yesterday!

 

[JMO8778]

..on that note,I wish Oprah would have a legitimate,objective Dr. on her show at the same time John is,to address all those silly remarks that were ever made involving the chronic molestation !

 

[JMO8778]

JMO8778,

Sure, not afterwards and not at the time of the crime either. Otherwise Patsy would have known not to make up a story that she cannot substantiate. Anyway I'll bet all the woman out there reckon there is no way Patsy would elect to redress JonBenet in size-12's she herself purchased recently, thus linking herself directly to the crime-scene, never mind the aesthetics of it all, when there are other size-6's available. The argument is simple if you want to suggest JonBenet redressed herself in those size-12's sometime after arriving home, then same argument can apply to the size-6's. The day of the week does not matter when contrasted with size!

The size-12's are a guy's idea of redressing JonBenet so she looked like she did prior to her death. They are a staging error and every woman knows they would never have dressed JonBenet in size-12's!






.

..yes and so John KNEW what JB was wearing prior to her death,including her underwear,this spells it out.so then the 'we put her straight to bed' story doesn't fly,but is an excuse for excluding John from this crime,in more ways than one.

..one thing I find important in that regard is that Thomas made no mention of the size 12 underwear whatsoever in his theory (and not even in his entire book,if I recall correctly).it was so obviously important in detail that he could make no mention of it without revealing something extremely relevant to the case,and it was far more than that old,degraded dna,IMO! IMO it showed John's involvement in the crime,without a doubt.

 

[JMO8778]

Sure, just like when she defended John against allegations of incest. Gee Whiz us millionaires doing stuff like that, no way, Nedra was there! I would like to hear or read about any statements made by friends regarding this excess grooming, because this and 911 call from the party suggests something was dynamically brewing. JonBenet's pageant grooming, the collection of photographs dumped in the basement, and the evidence of prior molestation e.g. Meyer's report and verbatim remarks, all serve to suggest something a little more organised than a simple rage accident occurred?


.

in that sense,do you think it was planned,to some degree?
..I've always wondered if the secret santa visit (which I think was JR) was the start of what happened to JB,along w the R's being q'd about their santa suit.

 

[BBB167893]

I've wondered about that,too.Either way,it's clear they didn't communicate to each other about that afterwards.

indeed,I think Patsy gave that away in DOI,when she said LE suspected them of using JB for such,and as a sub for herself.and Patsy added 'how sick!' to that suspicion,and (can I borrow your term here SD...a hit dog barks?!) and all of us know that LE doesn't suspect anything without good reason! also consider the excess grooming of JB for the pageants,to act and appear an adult,the addition of platinum blond hair (which she lied about),to the point where friends noticed the 'mega-JB' thing she was creating and planned an intervention after Christmas.
Perhaps Thomas was hinting about that in his book,when he mentioned Patsy didn't want the blond B**** down the st. to get JR..perhaps she was trying feverishly to 'keep him at home',so to speak?? if Patsy did it,then it appears that could have been part of her breaking point,even if she did have prior knowledge,the combo of stress of the holidays,having to consult Dr Beuf and keep it all confidential,perhaps a drink or two,the med they were q'd about...all were too much and she cracked,not being able to handle the image of JB she created,the JB that competed directly with her,in her mind,and was so much better than she herself...JAT.

A hit dog barks indeed! (That's not particularly MY term though!) Let me expand on that. In the book I write, quote:

You have to wonder why someone would stick by their man when it turns out he's the worst kind of victimizer? Well, perhaps she blamed herself, as I mentioned.

One has to remember that Patsy's temporary victory over ovarian cancer came with a price tag: operations that rendered sexual activity difficult. Enter JonBenet, expertly put together by her mother, prancing around in those showgirl outfits. In his starved brain, he may have thought, "Patsy is saying 'here she is. She's all yours. I've prepared her for you.'" JonBenet was "safe." She wasn't old enough to get life-destroying cancer, and she wasn't old enough to get herself killed driving a car. She was easy to manipulate and control. A perfect "playmate."

Man, I am going to hell for this.

 

[UKGuy]

in that sense,do you think it was planned,to some degree?
..I've always wondered if the secret santa visit (which I think was JR) was the start of what happened to JB,along w the R's being q'd about their santa suit.

JMO8778,
Yes I reckon it was organised, this might be why JonBenet was upset prior to Xmas and going on vacation, both you would think might elicit a sense of expectant joy?

.

 

[UKGuy]

..yes and so John KNEW what JB was wearing prior to her death,including her underwear,this spells it out.so then the 'we put her straight to bed' story doesn't fly,but is an excuse for excluding John from this crime,in more ways than one.

..one thing I find important in that regard is that Thomas made no mention of the size 12 underwear whatsoever in his theory (and not even in his entire book,if I recall correctly).it was so obviously important in detail that he could make no mention of it without revealing something extremely relevant to the case,and it was far more than that old,degraded dna,IMO! IMO it showed John's involvement in the crime,without a doubt.

JMO8778,

..one thing I find important in that regard is that Thomas made no mention of the size 12 underwear whatsoever in his theory (and not even in his entire book,if I recall correctly).it was so obviously important in detail that he could make no mention of it without revealing something extremely relevant to the case,and it was far more than that old,degraded dna,IMO! IMO it showed John's involvement in the crime,without a doubt.

Yes I reckon you are correct here, 100%. When you factor in Patsy's lies and Steve Thomas would know them to be lies, again not mentioned in his book. Makes you wonder what he knew and that the Ramsey's knew was so incriminating they found the remaining size-12's.


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[UKGuy]

well it sure didn't come from the bubble baths,like Dr Beuf goof said! anyone w any medical or anatomy knowledge at all (even so,it's just straighfwd common sense) knows that just isn't possible,esp. not in a child that age!
..and Dr Beuf goof even goes on to say the cure for that was 'plain water baths' ...I'm just rolling my eyes on that one!! thing is,I wonder what scripts he DID write for JB,as it seems that was no more than a CYA remark! AS in,'nope,I didn't write any scripts for that,just recommended the plain water baths......'. umm....yea.............he talks to the world the same way Patsy and John do...like we were all born yesterday!

JMO8778,
Dr. Beuf's defense would be he reccomended 'plain water baths' because what was presented to him was a localised infection.

He must now know what was going on, Coroner Meyer is no dummy, his autopsy report spells out molestation big time, thats what the the epithelial erosion is!


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[JMO8778]

A hit dog barks indeed! (That's not particularly MY term though!) Let me expand on that. In the book I write, quote:

You have to wonder why someone would stick by their man when it turns out he's the worst kind of victimizer? Well, perhaps she blamed herself, as I mentioned.

One has to remember that Patsy's temporary victory over ovarian cancer came with a price tag: operations that rendered sexual activity difficult. Enter JonBenet, expertly put together by her mother, prancing around in those showgirl outfits. In his starved brain, he may have thought, "Patsy is saying 'here she is. She's all yours. I've prepared her for you.'" JonBenet was "safe." She wasn't old enough to get life-destroying cancer, and she wasn't old enough to get herself killed driving a car. She was easy to manipulate and control. A perfect "playmate."

Man, I am going to hell for this.

nope,it won't be you going there!
but I agree,good insight.

 

[JMO8778]

JMO8778,
Yes I reckon it was organised, this might be why JonBenet was upset prior to Xmas and going on vacation, both you would think might elicit a sense of expectant joy?

.

..and perhaps a secret visit from santa would cheer her up?! secret implying she's special.santa implying there would be more gifts or a surprise for her,perhaps? a reward for what she was going to be used for..

 

[JMO8778]

JMO8778,

Yes I reckon you are correct here, 100%. When you factor in Patsy's lies and Steve Thomas would know them to be lies, again not mentioned in his book. Makes you wonder what he knew and that the Ramsey's knew was so incriminating they found the remaining size-12's.


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indeed it does!

 

[angelwngs]

You know the one screw up that could have made this whole thing look more as if an intruder had done it was the size 12 underware.

If PR had wrapped the size 12's and placed them in the basement with a couple of other wrapped packages and then torn open the packages to appear that the intruder had removed a handy pair of undies to redress JBR and hidden the ripped open package in an 'obvious' hiding place in the basement, the size 12's might have made the whole thing look as if someone other than a loving caring parent redressed JBR.

I read that PR loved the heating system which was a hot water system. We had one of those in my home where I grew up. There was a door on the side of the furnace that you opened to relite the pilot light when it went out or to work on the furnace. I watched my dad do it often when I was young.

JR mentioned that the furnace was near them in the basement when they found JBR.

I wonder if incriminating items could have been burned in there or just placed inside the metal body cavity of the furnace...

 

[JMO8778]

good thought,JR mentioned there was no evidence found in he fireplace,(although look who's talking..),so perhaps that could have been what happened.

 

[UKGuy]

You know the one screw up that could have made this whole thing look more as if an intruder had done it was the size 12 underware.

If PR had wrapped the size 12's and placed them in the basement with a couple of other wrapped packages and then torn open the packages to appear that the intruder had removed a handy pair of undies to redress JBR and hidden the ripped open package in an 'obvious' hiding place in the basement, the size 12's might have made the whole thing look as if someone other than a loving caring parent redressed JBR.

I read that PR loved the heating system which was a hot water system. We had one of those in my home where I grew up. There was a door on the side of the furnace that you opened to relite the pilot light when it went out or to work on the furnace. I watched my dad do it often when I was young.

JR mentioned that the furnace was near them in the basement when they found JBR.

I wonder if incriminating items could have been burned in there or just placed inside the metal body cavity of the furnace...

angelwngs

You know the one screw up that could have made this whole thing look more as if an intruder had done it was the size 12 underware.

If PR had wrapped the size 12's and placed them in the basement with a couple of other wrapped packages and then torn open the packages to appear that the intruder had removed a handy pair of undies to redress JBR and hidden the ripped open package in an 'obvious' hiding place in the basement, the size 12's might have made the whole thing look as if someone other than a loving caring parent redressed JBR.

mmm, but thats the catch. Thats why we know it was an inside job. Redressing JonBenet in the size-12's, any day of the week size-12's, is not something any intruder would bother hanging about to do. The intruder knows that JonBenet's internal injuries will eventually be discovered, hiding them serves no purpose, none what so ever! Your standard nasty intruder would just leave JonBenet lying where she fell, partially clothed, bloodied, including her size-6's, unless they were used to remove forensic evidence?

Fast forward to Patsy's interview where states at least three times I, We decided to put the size-12's into JonBenet's panty drawer, she is forced into some explanation since she admits purchasing them, and the interviewers tell her by implication that they have already searched the whole house and found no other set of unopened size-12's, get that bit, because Patsy agrees, never mind any opened size-12's. So Patsy lies and lies, and digs a deep hole for herself. Then she is told by the interviewers that no size-12's were found in JonBenet's panty drawer!

As you suggest it seems a simple detail to think up some explanation for the size-12's, yet Patsy does not , she lies, imo she is lying from a position of ignorance, thus directly linking herself to the size-12's that JonBenet is wearing. Not something you would do if you author ransom notes, dial 911 with tales of abduction etc.

So the size-12's are a staging error, in whatever capacity they were ever used, it is a mistake to dress JonBenet in size-12's, regardless from where they were sourced. The purpose of the size-12's is staging, to hide JonBenet's sexual assault!

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