Which came first, Strangulation or Head Trauma???

[Ames]

Does anyone have any idea of which of these came first? In The autopsy it says that there is def petechia present which leads me to believe the strangulation, but then that would have been present even if there was head trauma which she did not die from, so Im confused as to what had to happen first? The blood under the fracture (sp?)seemed to indicate that she was alive while bleeding? but then there was not a lot of blood so Im still confused as to what happened first. Please someone help!

IMO..the head blow came first, and then the garotte. Trust me...I should know. As far as strangulation goes...I have been there, and done that. No scratch marks on JB's neck, from her clawing at the cord, leads me to believe that the head blow came first, and that she was unconcious during the garotting.

 

[BBB167893]

Hi UK Guy. Quick Q.

"yet we know the Coroner suspected chronic sexual abuse". vs evidence of abuse limited to days

Guess I'm having trouble understanding the difference between chronic sexual abuse which was suspected by Meyers ( Does Meyers actually state that?) and Wecht's comment that JBR was sexually abused by someone over a period of days.


re Wecht interpretation of Meyer's findings....
http://www.geocities.com/SiliconValley/Haven/9101/wecht.html

To Wecht, the material he had just read made it clear that she had been sexually abused by someone over a period of several days. The abuse certainly might have covered a much longer time, but the evidence here was limited to days.

same geocites link Detective Linda Arndt swearing that Coroner Meyer had told her after the autopsy that JonBenet "had received an injury consistent with digital penetration of her vagina." Meyer had added "that it was his opinion that the victim had been subjected to sexual contact."

Just to add to what UKGuy has already said: Wendy Murphy is a former sex crimes prosecutor, so this is her bread-and-butter issue. As she said, JonBenet had old vaginal injuries.

 

[BBB167893]

ohhhhh. That must have taken a while at least.

Ten minutes to an hour.

But I suppose she still could have been strangled and then hit on the head which still did not result in her death right away.

Werner Spitz thought along those lines/

Oh maybe I talked to a different Dave then I thought it was you. You seemed quite busy if it was you so maybe I did and you forgot. People always forget me dont worry about it lol

Sounds like me!

 

[PolyGraph]

PolyGraph,
On the subject of bedwetting or soiling etc. Holly Smith, head of Boulder County Sexual Abuse team, stated had found fecal staining in all of JBR's panties on the 3rd day of the investigation; in 2006 she stated: "There is this dynamic of children that have been sexually abused sometimes soiling themselves or urinating in their beds to keep someone who is hurting them at bay," explains Smith....While Smith points out there could be innocent explanations, this was the kind of information that raised questions."

Holly Smith Link:
http://www.myfoxcolorado.com/myfox/...n=2&locale=EN-US&layoutCode=TSTY&pageId=3.2.1

So it seems like all the indicators were there. Robert Kirschner, MD. University of Chicago, Department of Pathology. Suggests JonBenet's vaginal opening was twice the normal size for six-year-olds. http://bardachreports.com/articles/v_19971000.html

Also John McCann, MD Clinical Professor of Medicine, Dept of Pediatrics at University of California at Davis. Reckons examination findings that indicate chronic sexual abuse include the thickness of the rim of the hymen, irregularity of the edge of the hymen, the width or narrowness of the wall of the hymen, and exposure of structures of the vagina normally covered by the hymen. His report stated that there was evidence of prior hymeneal trauma as all of these criteria were seen in the post mortem examination of JonBenet"

And although JonBenet visited her pediatrician, Dr. Beuf, many times over the years, only 5 of those were related to genital matters. Which might answer those who ask why would Patsy take JonBenet to the doctor? Well maybe she did but before her abuse became chronic and regular?

Whatever you think about who killed JonBenet and why? It appears irrefutable that she was being sexually molested regularly?

Absolutely agree with you UK! I did read that above quote about the sex abuse team that came in and took note of the underwear etc. I have also read in psych classes that children will typically smear fecal matter on walls, on rooms, floors etc as a sign. It seems odd to me that as critical as Patsy was about appearance she wouldnt have said something about her staining up her undies I dont know.

Im really disgusted that the sex abuse theory was not researched more. But what can you do when the parents hid behind TR. MOO

UK i love your posts!!! Can I be your best friend:blowkiss:

 

[PolyGraph]

IMO..the head blow came first, and then the garotte. Trust me...I should know. As far as strangulation goes...I have been there, and done that. No scratch marks on JB's neck, from her clawing at the cord, leads me to believe that the head blow came first, and that she was unconcious during the garotting.

Hi Ames! I dont know if you remember talking to me under humanpolygraph, but weve chatted beforehahahaha. I thought those looked just like clawing marks in the photographs but does anyone know for sure what those are?? they look like finger nail marks to me but Im no expert.

 

[BBB167893]

Hi Ames! I dont know if you remember talking to me under humanpolygraph, but weve chatted beforehahahaha. I thought those looked just like clawing marks in the photographs but does anyone know for sure what those are?? they look like finger nail marks to me but Im no expert.

Yeah; the autopsy report calls them petechial hemorrhages. They aren't clawing marks by a long shot.

 

[Ames]

Hi Ames! I dont know if you remember talking to me under humanpolygraph, but weve chatted beforehahahaha. I thought those looked just like clawing marks in the photographs but does anyone know for sure what those are?? they look like finger nail marks to me but Im no expert.

OHHHHh...yeah, I remember you!!! How are you doing? Good to see (or rather READ) you again.

No, those were not fingernail marks on her neck, as SuperDave explains in his post above, those were petechial hemorrhages.

 

[JMO8778]

I think she was manually strangled first by her shirt collar,per Dr Werner Spitz,and the head injury followed next...which IMO,was done with the flashlight,with INTENT to kill...I know a child's skull is softer than an adult's,but I just can't see that kind of head wound happening by accident...and the flashlight appears to fit the wound perfectly.Perhaps JB's hair and or her shirt padded her scalp,and that explains the lack of outward apparent injury until it was discovered upon autopsy.
The fact the scream was said to have ended abruptly was when the head injury occurred,IMO.And since JB didn't have defense wounds to her hands (that we know of,anyway),and that injury was off to the side of her head,I believe she was being held down low,near the floor,perhaps between her killer's legs,(perhaps she was jerked up from the floor by her shirt collar),when she was struck.I think the marks were from Patsy's rings,as there might be more pressure from them if JB were struggling and being jerked around on the floor.
Also the fact she was manually strangled,but yet still screamed,leads me to believe she broke free of that at least once before being struck.
The mark that was on the side of JR's face early on,leads me to think he tried to get in between the struggle between Patsy and JB,and got hit in the process,perhaps if Patsy was swinging the flashlight around.But..I don't rule him out as the perp,either.But Patsy's ring imprints and her guilty behavior lead me to think she did it.Ultimately though,I think it was JR's call that JB be denied medical help,due to past abuse.And then so the garotte was applied,and the staging began.The so-called infamous 'ransom note' came next.Next,I think phone calls were made,and perhaps a tentative plan to 'deny her remains' per the RN was made,with that plan falling through,for whatever reason.But I don't think the initial plan was to leave her in the WC.I think that was just a temp. hiding spot for her body at first.
So they were both involved,and I think that's obvious from their behavior.

 

[JMO8778]

Absolutely agree with you UK! I did read that above quote about the sex abuse team that came in and took note of the underwear etc. I have also read in psych classes that children will typically smear fecal matter on walls, on rooms, floors etc as a sign. It seems odd to me that as critical as Patsy was about appearance she wouldnt have said something about her staining up her undies I dont know.

Im really disgusted that the sex abuse theory was not researched more. But what can you do when the parents hid behind TR. MOO

UK i love your posts!!! Can I be your best friend:blowkiss:

me next,I'll stand in line

wasn't is said somewhere that Burke had the above problem when he was younger? I think I recall reading that.

 

[UKGuy]

Absolutely agree with you UK! I did read that above quote about the sex abuse team that came in and took note of the underwear etc. I have also read in psych classes that children will typically smear fecal matter on walls, on rooms, floors etc as a sign. It seems odd to me that as critical as Patsy was about appearance she wouldnt have said something about her staining up her undies I dont know.

Im really disgusted that the sex abuse theory was not researched more. But what can you do when the parents hid behind TR. MOO

UK i love your posts!!! Can I be your best friend:blowkiss:

PolyGraph,
Thanks for your vote. I reckon Steve Thomas' main working theory was that JonBenet had been sexually abused. This is why search warrants were issued for all the Ramsey properties to be searched for *advertiser censored*. The reason it never moved forward was because the DA blocked further investigation into critical areas such as telephone records, as well as removing Holly Wells from the case. Michael Bynum orchestrated a beneath the radar defense of the Ramseys more or less from day one. He invited author David Protess to the Boulder County branch of the Colorado Criminal Defense Bar to talk about miscarriages of justice, notably the 1988 murder of Jaclyn Dowaliby. Parallels were made between that case, where parents were 'wrongly' suspected, and the allegedly misguided claims made against the Ramseys!

It seems odd to me that as critical as Patsy was about appearance she wouldnt have said something about her staining up her undies I dont know.

She did refer to it in one of her interviews, but talked about JonBenet still learning to clean herself. JonBenet would also ask non-family members to wipe her down, which demonstrates loose personal boundaries. Nedra also mentioned dirtying, so it was patently common knowledge in the Ramsey family.

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[JMO8778]

Re: the 'what did I do' line,that was BR overheard on the 911 call tape,he'd stated,'please,what do I do?',and 'what did you find?'
What you are probably thinking of is Patsy being highly medicated at the Fernie's,and saying 'we didn't mean for this to happen'.WE.They were both involved,she and JR,and both had knowledge of sexual abuse of JB,IMO.
JR was heard to oversay "I regret,I regret...". I think it's obvious he meant he regretted abusing JB,as that led to medical care not being sought for her,IMO.

 

[UKGuy]

me next,I'll stand in line

wasn't is said somewhere that Burke had the above problem when he was younger? I think I recall reading that.

JMO8778,
Not certain if he was fecal soiling, but bedwetting and the wearing of diapers or longjohns was regular until was 4 or 5, I forget the exact age.


So there is this dynamic already present prior to JonBenet arriving. Soon after, once attention switches to JonBenet, Burke stops wetting the bed. Don't quote me on that since its from memory?

Speculating: either Patsy was keeping Burke and JonBenet at that stage deliberately, or she was attempting to avoid any interaction in this area e.g. she had issues with genital contact, or it was plain ignorance? Against all this is JonBenet requesting non-family members to wipe her down, suggesting some Ramsey family members did this frequently?

.

 

[JMO8778]

..Just because manual strangulation wasn't mentioned in the autopsy report doesn't mean it didn't occur.Dr Spitz must have had basis for stating it so occurred.I don't believe the strangulation by her shirt collar was intended to kill her;Thomas stated it was the earmark of someone being out of control and in a rage,so I don't think the perp realized their own strength when this happened.It was just the result of out -of- control anger,while I do think the head bash was the result of that culminating into a split-second decision to rid of JB for good.

 

[JMO8778]

JMO8778,
Not certain if he was fecal soiling, but bedwetting and the wearing of diapers or longjohns was regular until was 4 or 5, I forget the exact age.

maybe it was PMPT,but I think it was said he smeared the walls,too.

So there is this dynamic already present prior to JonBenet arriving. Soon after, once attention switches to JonBenet, Burke stops wetting the bed. Don't quote me on that since its from memory?

I recall reading that as well.

Speculating: either Patsy was keeping Burke and JonBenet at that stage deliberately, or she was attempting to avoid any interaction in this area e.g. she had issues with genital contact, or it was plain ignorance? Against all this is JonBenet requesting non-family members to wipe her down, suggesting some Ramsey family members did this frequently?

.

it does,and I also think Patsy was so overly so about life in general,that it stressed BR and JB both,as once JB was born,and the attention switched to her,BR's problems were said to have stopped.

 

[UKGuy]

I think she was manually strangled first by her shirt collar,per Dr Werner Spitz,and the head injury followed next...which IMO,was done with the flashlight,with INTENT to kill...I know a child's skull is softer than an adult's,but I just can't see that kind of head wound happening by accident...and the flashlight appears to fit the wound perfectly.Perhaps JB's hair and or her shirt padded her scalp,and that explains the lack of outward apparent injury until it was discovered upon autopsy.
The fact the scream was said to have ended abruptly was when the head injury occurred,IMO.And since JB didn't have defense wounds to her hands (that we know of,anyway),and that injury was off to the side of her head,I believe she was being held down low,near the floor,perhaps between her killer's legs,(perhaps she was jerked up from the floor by her shirt collar),when she was struck.I think the marks were from Patsy's rings,as there might be more pressure from them if JB were struggling and being jerked around on the floor.
Also the fact she was manually strangled,but yet still screamed,leads me to believe she broke free of that at least once before being struck.
The mark that was on the side of JR's face early on,leads me to think he tried to get in between the struggle between Patsy and JB,and got hit in the process,perhaps if Patsy was swinging the flashlight around.But..I don't rule him out as the perp,either.But Patsy's ring imprints and her guilty behavior lead me to think she did it.Ultimately though,I think it was JR's call that JB be denied medical help,due to past abuse.And then so the garotte was applied,and the staging began.The so-called infamous 'ransom note' came next.Next,I think phone calls were made,and perhaps a tentative plan to 'deny her remains' per the RN was made,with that plan falling through,for whatever reason.But I don't think the initial plan was to leave her in the WC.I think that was just a temp. hiding spot for her body at first.
So they were both involved,and I think that's obvious from their behavior.

JMO8778,
I agree with you that JonBenet was initially manually strangled, this was not fatal and as you suggest the head blow was likely delivered by the flashlight.

Knowing that JonBenet was being sexually abused makes me adopt this as part of a preliminary theory e.g. her strangulation follows on from an acute genital asault.

The purpose of the wine-cellar staging was to gain time so the Ramsey's could flee interstate by plane, where they would lawyer-up and attempt to avoid extradition.

I reckon there had been a prior staging which was then revised to that of the wine-cellar. Dialling 911 and reporting a kidnapping requires a ransom note. Reporting the discovery of your dead daughter is something else!

So much of what we know is probably staging, and is likely the reason why John Ramsey feels so confident about still appearing on TV, where other people would have been glad of the obscurity that time brings?


.

 

[UKGuy]

..Just because manual strangulation wasn't mentioned in the autopsy report doesn't mean it didn't occur.Dr Spitz must have had basis for stating it so occurred.I don't believe the strangulation by her shirt collar was intended to kill her;Thomas stated it was the earmark of someone being out of control and in a rage,so I don't think the perp realized their own strength when this happened.It was just the result of out -of- control anger,while I do think the head bash was the result of that culminating into a split-second decision to rid of JB for good.

Just because manual strangulation wasn't mentioned in the autopsy report doesn't mean it didn't occur.

Of course, this is the mistake made by a literal reading of the autopsy report. Remember initially stuff was redacted from the report, so the original intention was redaction and minimising making some evidence public. I reckon the Autopsy Report as finally released was worded in such a manner to allow JonBenet's killer to assume that the staging had been successful. Since there are no explicit remarks regarding sexual abuse, digital penetration or manual strangulation, yet the forensic evidence is itemised in the report, along with Coroner Meyer's off-record, vebatim comments on staging and sexual contact.

Not to mention the patently opaque birefringement foreign material why not simply state cellulose splinter, it may be this that prompted the original redaction process, since the missing piece of the paintbrush could have been left inside her? Since why would any intruder remove just that piece and not the piece in the paint-tote?


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It was just the result of out -of- control anger,while I do think the head bash was the result of that culminating into a split-second decision to rid of JB for good.

Its possible that the head injury was intended to be part of the initial staging?


.

 

[JMO8778]

JMO8778,
I agree with you that JonBenet was initially manually strangled, this was not fatal and as you suggest the head blow was likely delivered by the flashlight.

Knowing that JonBenet was being sexually abused makes me adopt this as part of a preliminary theory e.g. her strangulation follows on from an acute genital asault.

I can understand that as well.I don't rule it out.But in that sense,I can't factor in Patsy's guilty behavior,or the fact she said she had flashbacks of hearing JB scream,or her writing the RN and participating in the staging,if JR had done it.

The purpose of the wine-cellar staging was to gain time so the Ramsey's could flee interstate by plane, where they would lawyer-up and attempt to avoid extradition.

I reckon there had been a prior staging which was then revised to that of the wine-cellar. Dialling 911 and reporting a kidnapping requires a ransom note. Reporting the discovery of your dead daughter is something else!

for sure! they needed to ward off LE and have time to get their act together via attorneys and getting their stories straight.
But I don't rule out an initial plan to get her body out of the house.The RN contents,the missing phone records,and JR's prints on the walk-in fridge say there is much more to this story,IMO.

So much of what we know is probably staging, and is likely the reason why John Ramsey feels so confident about still appearing on TV, where other people would have been glad of the obscurity that time brings?


.

indeed,and I think if Patsy had done it alone,he would be happy to let her hang for it after her death,even if just by nothing more than silence.Instead,he keeps on and on,feverishly trying to portray innocence for both of them.It reminds me of the lies ppl who say they've been abducted by aliens tell...they keep on and on,adding to the story..saying things like they'd been abducted in childhood,they've been abducted since this last episode...etc.,not realizing that the more they go on and on,the more they hang themselves;for by the continued talking and talking..they are indicating they're doing nothing more than lying.

 

[JMO8778]

Of course, this is the mistake made by a literal reading of the autopsy report. Remember initially stuff was redacted from the report, so the original intention was redaction and minimising making some evidence public. I reckon the Autopsy Report as finally released was worded in such a manner to allow JonBenet's killer to assume that the staging had been successful. Since there are no explicit remarks regarding sexual abuse, digital penetration or manual strangulation, yet the forensic evidence is itemised in the report, along with Coroner Meyer's off-record, vebatim comments on staging and sexual contact.

Not to mention the patently opaque birefringement foreign material why not simply state cellulose splinter, it may be this that prompted the original redaction process, since the missing piece of the paintbrush could have been left inside her? Since why would any intruder remove just that piece and not the piece in the paint-tote?

Indeed,and Thomas revealed some of that for us,referring to a splinter being found inside JB,as well as several other things he outlined in his book.I would sure like to know what he knows!

Its possible that the head injury was intended to be part of the initial staging?


.

sure,but the sequence of events the evidence suggests (to me at least) leads me to believe that's not what happened.If JB was manually strangled first,as Dr Spitz states,then out cold from the head injury,(as there were no claw marks on her neck)...then it appears the garotte was,at least in part,an attempt to hide the manual strangulation marks that resulted from a rage attack.

 

[UKGuy]

I can understand that as well.I don't rule it out.But in that sense,I can't factor in Patsy's guilty behavior,or the fact she said she had flashbacks of hearing JB scream,or her writing the RN and participating in the staging,if JR had done it.

for sure! they needed to ward off LE and have time to get their act together via attorneys and getting their stories straight.
But I don't rule out an initial plan to get her body out of the house.The RN contents,the missing phone records,and JR's prints on the walk-in fridge say there is much more to this story,IMO.

indeed,and I think if Patsy had done it alone,he would be happy to let her hang for it after her death,even if just by nothing more than silence.Instead,he keeps on and on,feverishly trying to portray innocence for both of them.It reminds me of the lies ppl who say they've been abducted tell...they keep on and on,adding to the story..saying things like they'd been abducted in childhood,they've been abducted since this last episode...etc.,not realizing that the more they go on and on,the more they hang themselves;for by the continued talking and talking..they are indicating they're doing nothing more than lying.

JMO8778,

I can understand that as well.I don't rule it out.But in that sense,I can't factor in Patsy's guilty behavior,or the fact she said she had flashbacks of hearing JB scream,or her writing the RN and participating in the staging,if JR had done it.

I know that is quite frustrating. Yet we know Patsy lied when she need not e.g. the placement of the size-12's. She must have been lying from a position of ignorance, which suggests to me that John may have duped Patsy in some manner. Also remember Patsy publicly defending John against claims of incest stating Nedra was present when she was not. So implicitly Patsy is saying I already suspected John , mmm. I reckon Patsy knew what was going on already. So becoming involved in the staging was not a difficult decision.


.

 

[JMO8778]

I meant to clarify that! I didn't mean by kidnappers.

>It reminds me of the lies ppl who say they've been abducted by aliens tell.