Casey & Family Psychological Profile #3

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Some new insights in RE-reviewing the video's...I have a couple of thoughts and would honor your opinions.

1) In one of the videotapes in which George is having a discussion with Casey, alone, he begins to describe an incident to Casey about himself and "the time he had to go to court due to the "thing that he did" and that it was all predetermined before he arrived"....does anyone know what he is referencing? Here is the video in reference:
Move the clip to 8:00
http://www.wftv.com/video/18206395/index.html

2) in the clip around 5:00 George talks about how he believes Caylee is closeby and every night he prays...at this point Casey completely looks extremely under duress and "breaks down in her own quiet way"...I get the impression that she is thinking how sad she feels for her dad because she knows Caylee is not alive. Do you get the same impression? I wish the focus would have continued on how they are suffering without Caylee...because I've a feeling she could have been broke down. But George then switches to Casey and what he is doing to help her...and Casey completely comes out of the "near breakdown" into a different mental mode....Boy I wish they would have kept going on about Caylee and all the stuff she did and what they missed. I think that could have broken Casey...which then says to me ...there just could be a bit of guilt in her after all?

3) Also, in the same video, around the 6:00 time point...regarding the family dynamics, George mentions how they never really listened to Casey and how they will from now on change and how maybe they were too domineering in raising Casey.

4) George CLEARLY to me, is in total denial. Casey just feeds right along into him regarding the event for the other missing children. I mean he REALLY believes that Caylee will come home, Casey will come out and then she (CASEY) could help work for the missing children organization! (go to 10:21)....and Casey states to him (about working for missing children organizations)...."Oh absolutely."....she is really feeding him what he wants to hear. I guess somewhere in me I felt George knew all along...but just listening to him he sounds too darn sincere and that he IS IN FACT in denial. What are your thoughts?

5) Further along the denial..(see 11:58)....he talks about "how they can all go into protective custody." I truly believe that Cindy and George really thought that Casey got involved into something very bad and that Casey was trying to protect them. I think this really shows how much in denial George himself was in...perhaps a protective measure to protect his own deep knowledge of knowing the truth that no way could Caylee be alive?

6) For the more knowledgable here....How much do we know about "denial". I don't think we've discussed that from a psychological point of view. When someone is in deep denial are they truly unaware of the facts or truth? or do they know but they have some kind of protective measure?
 
icherish said:
True, we don't know for certain. But we don't know that there *isn't a hereditary or genetic cause to which it can be attributed, either. What we do know along those lines is that there is a family history that supports it is possible.

On that note, there are a lot of things we don't "know" in this case. You don't "know" that Cindy is a narcissist, you have merely formed the opinion that she is. That's fine... we form opinions based on our personal observations, as well as speculative information and the facts as we understand them.

I simply stated the fact that there is indeed a family history of psych problems...and I do think it's an important fact as it pertains to this discussion.
Click to expand...

To date we have nothing (other than GA's suggestion) to substantiate the "fact" that there is "indeed" any such diagnosed history of genetic disorder anywhere in the A family--much less in KC herself. He has a daughter charged w premeditated murder of his granddaughter. What seems far more likely under the circumstances would be GA's willingness to attribute the obvious A family dysfunction to some "genetic" origins. Because what we are left to explain, in it's absence, is the humiliating exposure of this family's gross and obvious dysfunction... a horrific family skeleton, and the unhealthy patterns and horrendous observable behavior consistent w either classic textbook NPD (and/or other PD). Hmmmm, anybody else around here ever noticed how parents are so quick to excuse their family dysfunction or childrens' behavior by placing blame of course anywhere other than their parenting or childrearing...? JMO

:waitasec:
 
I don't know why there couldn't be at least some physical contribution to being someone like Casey. I think it just depends. Perhaps in some cases it is caused more by the parenting and other times perhaps some physical cause. It wouldn't necessarily have to be genetic, would it? It could just be a physical mutation that happened when no one else in the family has it.

The brain is a physical thing. It can have stuff missing or wrong with it just as any other body part could. It may be that there can be things missing, mirror neuron problems or whatever, that aren't testable with current technology. I don't know anything, but the brain is physical and I don't see why there couldn't be a physical absence that would lead to a lack of conscience just as a baby could be born with a deformed heart valve or anything else.

As far as George being in denial...perhaps so. But I think maybe he has some mental problems, JMO. If he really got involved in some kind of Nigerian scam and pushed his father through a window and, with full knowledge of Casey's history of lying and having smelled her trunk, he really thought ZFG did it...he's confused. IMO.

ETA: I do not mean in any way that Casey shouldn't pay for what (I believe) she did on the basis of having a physical cause for what she is missing.
 
Robert Hare who is the leading expert on psychopaths - says there are studies which
show their brains are in fact different . The big question is are they different from birth or do they develop that way from the misuse by the wingnut ?

I personally feel that wingnuts are made - incubated by nurture . The defense mechanisms are built by the Cluster B's as a toddler . Its not that they have a pd
it is they are a pd . It dictates every aspect of their lives .

The lowest common trait is lying the most destructive is Lack of empathy.
If we as a society were going to try and tackle the problem - there would clear
concise instruction for parents on instilling empathy . It has to developed
at 3-5 years old . Kindergarten would be focusing on activities to instill it
re enforce it and help it take hold.
People without empathy turn into predators and the results arent pretty
 
Lavanda Dolce said:
Some new insights in RE-reviewing the video's...I have a couple of thoughts and would honor your opinions.

1) In one of the videotapes in which George is having a discussion with Casey, alone, he begins to describe an incident to Casey about himself and "the time he had to go to court due to the "thing that he did" and that it was all predetermined before he arrived"....does anyone know what he is referencing?
Click to expand...

could he be talking about the time he threw his father through the glass door?


Lavanda Dolce said:
6) For the more knowledgable here....How much do we know about "denial". I don't think we've discussed that from a psychological point of view. When someone is in deep denial are they truly unaware of the facts or truth? or do they know but they have some kind of protective measure?
Click to expand...

i'm hardly knowledgable, but i'm pretty sure that people in true denial do not involve themselves in any form of cover up for the simple reason that they do not believe there is anything to cover up.
 
BuzzieCat said:
I don't know why there couldn't be at least some physical contribution to being someone like Casey. I think it just depends. Perhaps in some cases it is caused more by the parenting and other times perhaps some physical cause. It wouldn't necessarily have to be genetic, would it? It could just be a physical mutation that happened when no one else in the family has it.

The brain is a physical thing. It can have stuff missing or wrong with it just as any other body part could. It may be that there can be things missing, mirror neuron problems or whatever, that aren't testable with current technology. I don't know anything, but the brain is physical and I don't see why there couldn't be a physical absence that would lead to a lack of conscience just as a baby could be born with a deformed heart valve or anything else.

As far as George being in denial...perhaps so. But I think maybe he has some mental problems, JMO. If he really got involved in some kind of Nigerian scam and pushed his father through a window and, with full knowledge of Casey's history of lying and having smelled her trunk, he really thought ZFG did it...he's confused. IMO.

ETA: I do not mean in any way that Casey shouldn't pay for what (I believe) she did on the basis of having a physical cause for what she is missing.
Click to expand...

Yes, Buzziecat...I do agree with your thought processes. I too find it very difficult to believe that most all personality disorders are merely due to ones upbringing. Given in light that many children are raised by the same parents, under the same roof and usually in the same manner...and some come out well and others may not...that I have to attribute a lot of personality disorders as a combination of factors which include: Genetic, environmental, upbringing, life experiences and also brain chemistry and/or brain anomalies...some of which medical science has yet to discover or pinpoint exactly what may cause certain behaviors such as psychopathic. What if one day they find it is indeed a gene and can be fixed? That could be awesome!
 
The lowest common trait is lying the most destructive is Lack of empathy.
People without empathy turn into predators and the results arent pretty
Click to expand...

Again, I need to interject...from a standpoint of the use of the word "empathy". To state "people without empathy turn into predators is absolutely not true and unfounded." This word has been exploited to the hilt and gives a wrong impression when used such as stated above. Can you imagine if you should learn that your neighbor has an teen without empathy as they may have Aspergers and the entire neighborhood fears that she will turn into a predator?

And yes, this is from a personal standpoint. I've written about this over and again. One of my purposes in this thread, after discovering how much the word is being used, was to help keep the posters educated on the proper usage of the word as to alleviate misconceptions of those who lack or do not have empathy in sentences such as above. Apparently my goal is failing. Let me clarify. Not all people who lack empathy are going to be sociopathic, destructive, or a Casey Anthony.

Remember, there are those who are born without the ability to empathize (such as those with autism spectrum disorders) and it is unfair to state they will turn into predators. Nor, in my opinion, is the most destructive "is the lack of empathy".

In my personal opinion the most destructive are those who lack conscience, moral goodness and self control.

This is a pretty good article that basically asks the question: Why do autistics have a sense of morality while psychopaths do not, given that they both display a deficit of empathy? (ASD=autism spectrum disorder)http://fvignemont.googlepages.com/Autism_Morality_Empathy.doc.
 
eddeva said:
could he be talking about the time he threw his father through the glass door?

i'm hardly knowledgable, but i'm pretty sure that people in true denial do not involve themselves in any form of cover up for the simple reason that they do not believe there is anything to cover up.
Click to expand...

I wondered if it was about the glass door incident, as well. As a parent, I can say that I do know that sometimes I have lived in denial..or I should say living in denial? But I'm not sure if it is so much "denial" as it is "unknown circumstances and hope"? By that I mean, sometimes when raising a child with multiple special needs, such as my son, I find that I "could" still be in some phase of denial because I always have the hopes that he will marry and carry a full time job someday and have a family...and/or could live on his own and be functional in his own life without intervention and constant monitoring that he now requires at the age of 19. However, I say denial because just when I may think it "could be possible" something will occur that is like a "slap of reality" to myself that says my expectations may be unreasonable. So it's like a see saw...up and down of emotions. I've found others in my autisum support group have the same feelings which is why we live day to day with our children, one day at a time with what they can accomplish.
 
Lavanda Dolce said:
I wondered if it was about the glass door incident, as well. As a parent, I can say that I do know that sometimes I have lived in denial..or I should say living in denial? But I'm not sure if it is so much "denial" as it is "unknown circumstances and hope"? By that I mean, sometimes when raising a child with multiple special needs, such as my son, I find that I "could" still be in some phase of denial because I always have the hopes that he will marry and carry a full time job someday and have a family...and/or could live on his own and be functional in his own life without intervention and constant monitoring that he now requires at the age of 19. However, I say denial because just when I may think it "could be possible" something will occur that is like a "slap of reality" to myself that says my expectations may be unreasonable. So it's like a see saw...up and down of emotions. I've found others in my autisum support group have the same feelings which is why we live day to day with our children, one day at a time with what they can accomplish.
Click to expand...

i understand what you mean now, somewhere between hope and a leap of necessary faith.
when i was younger i worked with autistic children and other special needs little ones. your son will be in my prayers.
 
I found an interesting web page, Profile of the Sociopath. A lot of it seems to describe KC to a "t". Be sure to read the sections titled "The Psychopath Next Door" and "The Malignant Personality."
 
eddeva said:
i'm hardly knowledgable, but i'm pretty sure that people in true denial do not involve themselves in any form of cover up for the simple reason that they do not believe there is anything to cover up.
Click to expand...


From some of what I've been reading I found this from an article on the web: "denial is one of many defense mechanisms. It entails ignoring or refusing to believe an unpleasant reality. Defense mechanisms protect one's psychological wellbeing in traumatic situations, or in any situation that produces anxiety or conflict. However, they do not resolve the anxiety-producing situation and, if overused, can lead to psychological disorders." This definition would seem to be quite the reason that both George and Cindy were in denial. (or still are?) I would imagine their fears of Caylee being dead was so traumatic of a thought and Casey's feeding them the line that "she is protecting their family from some terrible people" helped justify or overcome their fears of Caylee being deceased to the point that they actually believed Casey in that some other scenario existed in Caylee's disappearance which caused them to continue to search for a living Caylee. One thing about denial that I believe we can all relate to is the fact that ONLOOKERS can usually spot denial in one who is in denial. Such as the alcoholic who does not think they are alcoholics, yet everyone around them knows they are.
 
Lavanda Dolce said:
One thing about denial that I believe we can all relate to is the fact that ONLOOKERS can usually spot denial in one who is in denial. Such as the alcoholic who does not think they are alcoholics, yet everyone around them knows they are.
Click to expand...

and if these two were even in the same state as 'normal' i'd agree with you.
i'll be honest - i've never seen people who lie as much as the anthonys and i've known some, err, undesirable characters in my time.
that's the problem - is it denial or deceit?
i lean towards deceit, but i still hold out the possibility of some strange form of denial. i just don't think it's likely anymore.
 
The Sociopath Next Door by Martha Stout, PhD is a worthwhile read, as well. In addition to really defining the personality disorder quite well, it explains that a sort of continuum of sociopathy that can exist. Some sociopaths are monsters, others are highly successful, and still others are empty shells.

I am the daughter of a sociopath. I am also the aunt of one (raised in the same house as I, during my teen years, largely by my parents--which means that my sociopath father contributed to the rearing of my sociopath nephew). My family psych history is checkered enough to give any researcher pause, but from my own (albeit limited) experience, I've concluded that there are both innate and learned components to sociopathy.

The nurture (learned) aspects relate primarily to how well the sociopath functions, IMO. It's my belief that a sociopath is born as such. However, the environment in which s/he is raised (including his/her interactions with others) determines how s/he will function (or not function) in a world populated by other human beings with which s/he really feels no connection and for whom s/he feels no responsibility.

Just my :twocents: du jour :)
 
eddeva said:
and if these two were even in the same state as 'normal' i'd agree with you.
i'll be honest - i've never seen people who lie as much as the anthonys and i've known some, err, undesirable characters in my time.
that's the problem - is it denial or deceit?
i lean towards deceit, but i still hold out the possibility of some strange form of denial. i just don't think it's likely anymore.
Click to expand...

Tis true. Guess that would be the question of the day. Are they in fact in denial or were they deceitful to have onlookers think they were in denial? I personally believe they were in denial.
 
Lavanda Dolce said:
Tis true. Guess that would be the question of the day. Are they in fact in denial or were they deceitful to have onlookers think they were in denial? I personally believe they were in denial.
Click to expand...

Do you remember CA saying to LE you guys were so good the first 4 days keeping us informed. She lost control over everything, and could not fix KC's mistakes this time. It was totally out of her hands. The lies started. Trying to do anything to throw LE and the world off of thinking the Mother of the Year was responsible. I think KC truly thought she would be coming home and it would all be over. Good ole Mom will fix it one more time, and Zanny will fry if they ever find her.
 
BetsyB said:
The Sociopath Next Door by Martha Stout, PhD is a worthwhile read, as well. In addition to really defining the personality disorder quite well, it explains that a sort of continuum of sociopathy that can exist. Some sociopaths are monsters, others are highly successful, and still others are empty shells.

I am the daughter of a sociopath. I am also the aunt of one (raised in the same house as I, during my teen years, largely by my parents--which means that my sociopath father contributed to the rearing of my sociopath nephew). My family psych history is checkered enough to give any researcher pause, but from my own (albeit limited) experience, I've concluded that there are both innate and learned components to sociopathy.

The nurture (learned) aspects relate primarily to how well the sociopath functions, IMO. It's my belief that a sociopath is born as such. However, the environment in which s/he is raised (including his/her interactions with others) determines how s/he will function (or not function) in a world populated by other human beings with which s/he really feels no connection and for whom s/he feels no responsibility.

Just my :twocents: du jour :)
Click to expand...

Great post! ITA. They even have intensive programs for children who have a high risk of ending up psychopaths.
 
Lavanda Dolce said:
Some new insights in RE-reviewing the video's...I have a couple of thoughts and would honor your opinions.

1) In one of the videotapes in which George is having a discussion with Casey, alone, he begins to describe an incident to Casey about himself and "the time he had to go to court due to the "thing that he did" and that it was all predetermined before he arrived"....does anyone know what he is referencing? Here is the video in reference:
Move the clip to 8:00
http://www.wftv.com/video/18206395/index.html

2) in the clip around 5:00 George talks about how he believes Caylee is closeby and every night he prays...at this point Casey completely looks extremely under duress and "breaks down in her own quiet way"...I get the impression that she is thinking how sad she feels for her dad because she knows Caylee is not alive. Do you get the same impression? I wish the focus would have continued on how they are suffering without Caylee...because I've a feeling she could have been broke down. But George then switches to Casey and what he is doing to help her...and Casey completely comes out of the "near breakdown" into a different mental mode....Boy I wish they would have kept going on about Caylee and all the stuff she did and what they missed. I think that could have broken Casey...which then says to me ...there just could be a bit of guilt in her after all?

3) Also, in the same video, around the 6:00 time point...regarding the family dynamics, George mentions how they never really listened to Casey and how they will from now on change and how maybe they were too domineering in raising Casey.

4) George CLEARLY to me, is in total denial. Casey just feeds right along into him regarding the event for the other missing children. I mean he REALLY believes that Caylee will come home, Casey will come out and then she (CASEY) could help work for the missing children organization! (go to 10:21)....and Casey states to him (about working for missing children organizations)...."Oh absolutely."....she is really feeding him what he wants to hear. I guess somewhere in me I felt George knew all along...but just listening to him he sounds too darn sincere and that he IS IN FACT in denial. What are your thoughts?

5) Further along the denial..(see 11:58)....he talks about "how they can all go into protective custody." I truly believe that Cindy and George really thought that Casey got involved into something very bad and that Casey was trying to protect them. I think this really shows how much in denial George himself was in...perhaps a protective measure to protect his own deep knowledge of knowing the truth that no way could Caylee be alive?

6) For the more knowledgable here....How much do we know about "denial". I don't think we've discussed that from a psychological point of view. When someone is in deep denial are they truly unaware of the facts or truth? or do they know but they have some kind of protective measure?
Click to expand...


I don't think George was in denial, I think he knew exactly what happened and the protective custody comment was a hint about a kidnap retaliation excuse for Casey to start coming up with. I'm probably the only one on any forum who thinks that Cindy is not the narcissist in this family....
 
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