'White African-American' Suing N.J. Med School

[Nova]

Hey Nova, How Ya Been? Long time no see! (I just realized that's probably PC incorrect as well.)

The guy probably couldn't identify himself as Mozambican-American.

We did a government mandated survey this week where the children had to identify themselves as basically African American, Asian, White, Hispanic, or Other. I had one kid looking like crazy for some European designation because his parents had told him his ancestors originally came from Germany or somewhere like that.

Obviously, the idea that "African-American" equals black conflicts with reality. So which side should give in, those with the perception and labels, or those who are actually from those continents or ethnic groups?

I dated a South African boy in college; my mother had great fun telling my father I was dating an African-American; my father, while fairly liberal in many ways, did not think for one minute that was funny.

I don't see the conflict with "reality" you mention.

I can understand African immigrants (black or white) being amused by our use of the term "African-American." But all of our nationalist hyphenates refer to ancient origins, rather to citizenship within the current lifetime. That IS the reality of our usage, whether one young man from Mozambique likes it or not.

And, no, we don't always use language consistently. Personally, I use "black" and "African-American" pretty much interchangeably (when referring to black Americans). And, yes, I remember when other terms were more common.

So language isn't always consistent or technically faithful to its component phonemes, and it changes over time. And innocent confusion sometimes results. It doesn't sound like that was true in this case.

 

[angelmom]

Perhaps you have more experience than I, though I've spent quite a few years at some supposedly "ultra-liberal" schools. In my experience, by the time a "P.C." issue reaches the press, it has been oversimplied to a ridiculous degree. As it appears may be the case here.

We both know I don't, but I would think that being at an "ultra-liberal" school tends not to bother those with a liberal bent to begin with.

I'm sure there are organizations with rules that I would find perfectly logical but which would seem ridiculous to you. In fact, I can think of a few right off the top of my head!

 

[Nova]

We both know I don't, but I would think that being at an "ultra-liberal" school tends not to bother those with a liberal bent to begin with.

I'm sure there are organizations with rules that I would find perfectly logical but which would seem ridiculous to you. In fact, I can think of a few right off the top of my head!

Fair enough. (I wasn't being cute, BTW; I really don't know what your experience of academia is.)

But even though I may agree that we should try to use the terms minorities choose for themselves, I can still tell when someone is being censured for doing otherwise. And my degrees are in playwriting and theater, fields in which there is hyper awareness (as well as lengthy discussion) of issues of politics, identity and symbolism.

If you are saying there is more concern with the politics of nomenclature at a university than at your average truck stop, I agree.

But the media's infrequent interest in academia might give one the impression that our universities are commonly ruled by language police with iron fists. With the exception of certain individuals (as there are everywhere) and certain minority or gender studies programs that tend to be more "PC," that simply isn't true. (ETA: in my experience, of course. I don't claim to have done formal studies.)

 

[jannuncutt]

Unless a person immigrated from Africa to the United States it simply isn't a valid label.

If a person, any person is born here...that person is American. Period.

Do you feel the same way about Italian-Americans, German-Americans, Polish-Americans, etc.?

 

[fortytwo]

After my posts the other day I did some surfing and ran across this rather interesting blog entry, a request for a copy of Paulo Serodio's article in the NJMS Plexus, the school paper.

Please note the fourth comment down. It's from Paulo Serodio.

I've kept an eye on the blog, and Mr. Serodio came through. Here is a link to the entry of that same blog where it is posted.

Identifying the actual link to the article can be a bit confusing (at least it was for me) so here is a link to the .pdf file itself.

The author of this blog approached this topic with a respectable degree of equanimity, and the comments which followed the first post were rather more well-reasoned and generally less inflamed than those following the original ABCNews article, so I recommend reading that as well, here at this link.

I want to reiterate (and iterate once again :crazy that I have no dog in this fight ... yet. I'm offering these sources in the interest of and as a contribution to further considered discussion.

 

[angelmom]

Do you feel the same way about Italian-Americans, German-Americans, Polish-Americans, etc.?

Not to answer for Linda, but I don't actually know any who refer to themselves this way except on holidays or at family reunions.

I also don't know of any who would be offended to meet someone who was actually born in Italy, Germany, or Poland and emigrated to the United States and then referred to themselves that way. It would be more like meeting a long lost cousin.



I have to agree with the writer in fortytwo's link when he says that ignorance may be the most disturbing facet of this case, especially in light of the fact that these people are studying to be doctors.

 

[fortytwo]

Unless a person immigrated from Africa to the United States it simply isn't a valid label.

If a person, any person is born here...that person is American. Period.

Do you feel the same way about Italian-Americans, German-Americans, Polish-Americans, etc.?

Not to answer for Linda, but I don't actually know any who refer to themselves this way except on holidays or at family reunions.

I also don't know of any who would be offended to meet someone who was actually born in Italy, Germany, or Poland and emigrated to the United States and then referred to themselves that way. It would be more like meeting a long lost cousin.



I have to agree with the writer in fortytwo's link when he says that ignorance may be the most disturbing facet of this case, especially in light of the fact that these people are studying to be doctors.

(bold above by me)

This hasn't been my experience. Well ... okay, yes it has in the sense that I rarely hear anyone referring to themselves using those particular phrases, but no it hasn't in the sense that many people consider the ethnicity of their heritage in a self-referential fashion, if only when cooking their great-grandma's spaghetti recipe and waxing nostalgic about old times at the dinner table.

I think the main point is being elusive here. This discussion keeps getting re-framed into one about the appropriateness of ethnic/geographic labeling and the semantic or cultural validity of such labels.

I think this is a red herring. The real question is whether or not Mr. Serodio acted in a fashion which warranted his suspension from the school community. In other words, what he said during the course of the events in question may be largely irrelevant. The way he said it is more likely the real issue.

 

[MrsG728]

My kids are also multi-racial and each of them identifies themselves as something different. When asked (which is rude IMO), my oldest always says he is white, my 10 yr old says he's mixed, my 7 yo will say he is black, and my baby bless his heart says he's tan, lol. I wish people didn't ask them "what are you?" Personally whenever people have asked me what race my kids are, I say human.

I am going to use this quote, Kym. THANK YOU. :clap:

 

[Linda7NJ]

Do you feel the same way about Italian-Americans, German-Americans, Polish-Americans, etc.?

Yes, I do.

 

[believe09]

I want to reiterate (and iterate once again :crazy that I have no dog in this fight ... yet. I'm offering these sources in the interest of and as a contribution to further considered discussion.

Respectfully snipped-:waitasec:

"Considered discussion." Apparently this does not equal the discussion you are reading in this thread.

I am intrigued.

Is it the discussion centered around the plaintiff that is not "considered" or all of the discussion?

TIA.

 

[fortytwo]

I want to reiterate (and iterate once again :crazy that I have no dog in this fight ... yet. I'm offering these sources in the interest of and as a contribution to further considered discussion.

Respectfully snipped-:waitasec:

"Considered discussion." Apparently this does not equal the discussion you are reading in this thread.

I am intrigued.

Is it the discussion centered around the plaintiff that is not "considered" or all of the discussion?

TIA.

(bold above by me)

Sure it does. Hence the adjective "further".

I feel that the focus of this thread tends to slide into a somewhat reflexive if not "knee-jerk" reiteration of PC diatribes when the real question is whether Mr. Serodio's suspension was or was not justified.

My original concern was that the source article from ABCNews did not provide us with enough unbiased data to pursue that discussion. I have been trying to uncover more.

There is reason to suspect that it was not merely Mr. Serodio's statements but also his manner of presenting them which might bear upon his suspension. I believe that this possibility warrants consideration and not just off-hand dismissal.

I find it difficult to consider an issue in a balanced fashion without sufficient information... from more than a single perspective.

I hope this answers your question.

 

[Nova]

Not to answer for Linda, but I don't actually know any who refer to themselves this way except on holidays or at family reunions.

I also don't know of any who would be offended to meet someone who was actually born in Italy, Germany, or Poland and emigrated to the United States and then referred to themselves that way. It would be more like meeting a long lost cousin.



I have to agree with the writer in fortytwo's link when he says that ignorance may be the most disturbing facet of this case, especially in light of the fact that these people are studying to be doctors.

(Emphasis added)

For the most part, I think that's true, angelmom. Though there are ethnic conflicts elsewhere that might play a part in certain cases. A "Polish-American" might say an ethnic German wasn't really "Polish-American," even though he immigrated from the nation-state of Poland. Etc. and so forth. We aren't the only country with ethnic conflict.

But the history of relations between European- and African-Americans in this country is especially fraught. And I doubt the conflict in this case arose just because the plaintiff misused a term.

 

[Nova]

fortytwo,

The "real subject" of this thread and almost all WS threads on race relations is strikingly consistent: minorities are too sensitive and try to claim "special rights" to which they aren't entitled.

Thank you very much for your posts and research.

 

[fortytwo]

fortytwo,

The "real subject" of this thread and almost all WS threads on race relations is strikingly consistent: minorities are too sensitive and try to claim "special rights" to which they aren't entitled.

Thank you very much for your posts and research.

I haven't done as much research as I'd like, but you're more than welcome for what I've uncovered so far.

I have to wonder if I might not be pursuing my own agenda too vigorously here. I had framed the topic of Mr. Serodio's suit in my own mind as one of a question concerning the validity of his grievance against the school. Said grievance being that he was suspended, and the question of significance being whether the school acted within the limits of propriety in its actions.

Perhaps the questions of ethnic labeling and multi-culturalism as a social irritant are more fun. My feeling is that they are beside the point.

 

[Nova]

I haven't done as much research as I'd like, but you're more than welcome for what I've uncovered so far.

I have to wonder if I might not be pursuing my own agenda too vigorously here. I had framed the topic of Mr. Serodio's suit in my own mind as one of a question concerning the validity of his grievance against the school. Said grievance being that he was suspended, and the question of significance being whether the school acted within the limits of propriety in its actions.

Perhaps the questions of ethnic labeling and multi-culturalism as a social irritant are more fun. My feeling is that they are beside the point.

Nobody owns the thread, fortytwo. By all means, please carry on!

I said near the start of the thread that despite sensationalist media reporting, this sort of "scandal" in academia rarely if ever results from a single remark or word choice. But you actually did the work to prove my point and add balance to the discussion.

Don't let anybody tell you you are off point. (I hope it was clear that my post above concerning "the real subject" was supposed to be ironic.)

 

[fortytwo]

Nobody owns the thread, fortytwo. By all means, please carry on!

I said near the start of the thread that despite sensationalist media reporting, this sort of "scandal" in academia rarely if ever results from a single remark or word choice. But you actually did the work to prove my point and add balance to the discussion.

Don't let anybody tell you you are off point. (I hope it was clear that my post above concerning "the real subject" was supposed to be ironic.)

It was. No worries.

Thanks for the reassurance.

 

[believe09]

Since my perspective and thoughts are irrelevent to the discussion, I will sit back and watch the two of you hash out the true point of the thread and ponder whether or not WSER's as a whole and myself in particular believe that "minorities are too sensitive" and are attempting to claim "special rights...." now that the two of you have pronounced it as fact. I have not done as much research on WSers and race relations, but look forward to reading the results of your research on similar threads.
:chicken:

 

[fortytwo]

Since my perspective and thoughts are irrelevent to the discussion, I will sit back and watch the two of you hash out the true point of the thread and ponder whether or not WSER's as a whole and myself in particular believe that "minorities are too sensitive" and are attempting to claim "special rights...." now that the two of you have pronounced it as fact. I have not done as much research on WSers and race relations, but look forward to reading the results of your research on similar threads.
:chicken:

I think your post is entirely uncalled for.

I have neither stated nor intimated in any way anything to justify such a diatribe. I have done nothing more than share my thoughts and opinions about the questions brought up by this topic.

I have not attacked other posters. I have made no statements concerning anyone elses' beliefs.

I have made no pronouncements of "fact".

I'm not privy to Nova's past experiences. This is my first interaction with him. But if posts such as this are representative then I can certainly sympathize with his attitude. It would appear to have been provoked.

You have certainly provoked me.

Do you normally take your reactions to the statements of one poster and attribute them arbitrarily to a group of your own choosing? Do you normally then use that reassignment as the basis for attacks on the group you have selected for your disapproval?

Perhaps this explains the confusion you experienced earlier when trying to grasp the meaning of "further considered discussion".

Perhaps if you were to take some time for calm reflection upon the subject you might experience some enlightenment.

 

[Linda7NJ]

Since my perspective and thoughts are irrelevant to the discussion, I will sit back and watch the two of you hash out the true point of the thread and ponder whether or not WSER's as a whole and myself in particular believe that "minorities are too sensitive" and are attempting to claim "special rights...." now that the two of you have pronounced it as fact. I have not done as much research on WSers and race relations, but look forward to reading the results of your research on similar threads.
:chicken:

:waitasec: Your thoughts and perspective IS relevant to the discussion. I started the thread with the intent to hears EVERYONE's thoughts on the subject.........

 

[believe09]

I think your post is entirely uncalled for.

I have neither stated nor intimated in any way anything to justify such a diatribe. I have done nothing more than share my thoughts and opinions about the questions brought up by this topic.

I have not attacked other posters. I have made no statements concerning anyone elses' beliefs.

I have made no pronouncements of "fact".

I'm not privy to Nova's past experiences. This is my first interaction with him. But if posts such as this are representative then I can certainly sympathize with his attitude. It would appear to have been provoked.

You have certainly provoked me.

Do you normally take your reactions to the statements of one poster and attribute them arbitrarily to a group of your own choosing? Do you normally then use that reassignment as the basis for attacks on the group you have selected for your disapproval?

Perhaps this explains the confusion you experienced earlier when trying to grasp the meaning of "further considered discussion".

Perhaps if you were to take some time for calm reflection upon the subject you might experience some enlightenment.

I will take your considered advice.