Pontiac: The odor, sealing off & processing the car #2

[LC446]

I've read the thread and I'm trying to understand why we are characterizing this delay in sealing the car as some type of threat to this case. I think I understand that what we are implying is that law enforcement lost valuable evidence during this delay? If I understand all the info correctly, Cindy was in cleanup mode and removed things from the car before she went to find Amy and before she called LE so unfortunately the damage to the evidence was done. The Anthony family had access to that car before LE was even aware of what had occurred. Hindsight is always 20/20 and while I agree that a more timely sealing of the car would have been prudent, I don't think that it will hinder the case in any way.

I commented on another thread that the call that the officers responded to was a missing child call so that is how it was approached. Could the lightbulb have gone off sooner, maybe, but we must remember that LE did not know that Casey was lying yet and didn't until they had gone on the city tour trying to find the many residences of Zanny.

I don't know what info the dispatcher did or did not pass on to the responding officers. But I would tell you to talk to any officers that you know and ask them if their dispatchers give them all the info when they respond to calls or are things left out sometimes. You will find out that often things don't get passed on. Is it acceptable? No, but it happens, and more often than you think. I would bet that when Yuri was called out that morning that he was given information to respond to a missing child call and that was probably pretty much it. It is usually the dispatcher that does the calling and it goes something like this...Sgt so and so or the supervisor needs you to respond to such and such address in reference to a missing child. You hang up, get up, get dressed and head out.

IMO, LE has done an outstanding job in this case, I just don't want us to hold these police officers and the dispatchers for that matter, up to some unrealistic expectation and when they don't meet it, they've committed some major faux paus and the case is in jeopardy. They are normal, everyday people, just like you and me and they do make mistakes.

 

[JBean]

The question from some was whether it would have any impact at all. Was there any evidence missed or compromised? Reasonable questions.
They seemingly missed an opportunity, it happens. will it matter? Maybe yes maybe no. Threat to the case? Not in my opinion.
As far as CA cleaning the car, why would she be smarter than LE when they didn't preserve evidence right away either?

 

[The Eunice Burns]

I've read the thread and I'm trying to understand why we are characterizing this delay in sealing the car as some type of threat to this case. I think I understand that what we are implying is that law enforcement lost valuable evidence during this delay? If I understand all the info correctly, Cindy was in cleanup mode and removed things from the car before she went to find Amy and before she called LE so unfortunately the damage to the evidence was done. The Anthony family had access to that car before LE was even aware of what had occurred. Hindsight is always 20/20 and while I agree that a more timely sealing of the car would have been prudent, I don't think that it will hinder the case in any way.

I commented on another thread that the call that the officers responded to was a missing child call so that is how it was approached. Could the lightbulb have gone off sooner, maybe, but we must remember that LE did not know that Casey was lying yet and didn't until they had gone on the city tour trying to find the many residences of Zanny.

I don't know what info the dispatcher did or did not pass on to the responding officers. But I would tell you to talk to any officers that you know and ask them if their dispatchers give them all the info when they respond to calls or are things left out sometimes. You will find out that often things don't get passed on. Is it acceptable? No, but it happens, and more often than you think. I would bet that when Yuri was called out that morning that he was given information to respond to a missing child call and that was probably pretty much it. It is usually the dispatcher that does the calling and it goes something like this...Sgt so and so or the supervisor needs you to respond to such and such address in reference to a missing child. You hang up, get up, get dressed and head out.

IMO, LE has done an outstanding job in this case, I just don't want us to hold these police officers and the dispatchers for that matter, up to some unrealistic expectation and when they don't meet it, they've committed some major faux paus and the case is in jeopardy. They are normal, everyday people, just like you and me and they do make mistakes.

I agree with everything you said. To clarify, the only niggling question I had was about the delay w/ the car. I don't think it's a deal breaker in convicting her, you're right about that. There is so much else.......And LE has done an outstanding job. When I think about the obstacles.....a lying mother who doesn't report her daughter missing, a grandmother who does but swings into a antagonistic stance w/ LE, and the 31 days, etc.,.......that would be a tough case to investigate; but I agree with you, they did a great job. Which is why CA's comments about LE not doing a complete investigatigon on The Today Show are so infuriating........okay, now I'm rambling.

 

[AZlawyer]

The question from some was whether it would have any impact at all. Was there any evidence missed or compromised? Reasonable questions.
They seemingly missed an opportunity, it happens. will it matter? Maybe yes maybe no. Threat to the case? Not in my opinion.
As far as CA cleaning the car, why would she be smarter than LE when they didn't preserve evidence right away either?

BBM

Because she realized at 4:27 pm, within a few minutes of starting to clean the car, that there was a "major prob" that she didn't want to put in writing to Casey (based on her "call me major prob" text to Casey, followed up by her second text "call me" when Casey was trying to find out what the "prob" was).

LE, IMHO, didn't (and maybe still doesn't) know about whatever Cindy was referring to in that text.

 

[wenwe4]

LC446, your post about YM being called out on a missing child, sparked a neuron fire in my pointy head. Isn't YM a detective w/crimes against children? Not sure that the car would be initially his concern, and maybe someone else (was/should have been) assigned to all of the "issues" w/the vehicle. Just speculating

 

[JBean]

BBM

Because she realized at 4:27 pm, within a few minutes of starting to clean the car, that there was a "major prob" that she didn't want to put in writing to Casey (based on her "call me major prob" text to Casey, followed up by her second text "call me" when Casey was trying to find out what the "prob" was).

LE, IMHO, didn't (and maybe still doesn't) know about whatever Cindy was referring to in that text.

But LE had the same info as Cindy about:
1. Missing child for 31 days
2. No report of missing child by the mother
3. Car towed when it was thought to be in KC's possesion
4. Dead body smell in the car.
5. Obvious problems within the family evidenced by mother calling police on daughter re: stealing her car

So, if CA put together that there was a possible murder, then LE certainly should have put it together.
If we give LE a pass for not assuming the car to be important immediately, then we have to give CA and GA a pass as well. CA and GA were clearly disturbed by the car odor and made it known from the get go. So to GA and CA it may have been a prob immediately but to LE it was not.

 

[LC446]

LC446, your post about YM being called out on a missing child, sparked a neuron fire in my pointy head. Isn't YM a detective w/crimes against children? Not sure that the car would be initially his concern, and maybe someone else (was/should have been) assigned to all of the "issues" w/the vehicle. Just speculating

wenwe4, Yuri is assigned to the child abuse/missing persons unit. Usually the lead detective is "in charge" of their case. He could've assigned someone to stay with the car but don't see anything that shows that he did this. He is untimately in charge of his scene so it was his call. I can't pretend to know what he was thinking but can you imagine showing up at this scene in the wee hours of the morning and everything going on? I think he was focused on finding this child. Approached it with an open mind. After figuring out that everything coming out of Casey's mouth was a lie, he got the car picked up. It took time to get all this done.

 

[JBean]

So two options come to mind: either SA are keeping evidence of securing the vehicle close to the vest for trial or it was not secured and the above scenario is a big hole in the investigation.

If the car was not secured, how much of this time would KC actually have access to it during this 15-22 hrs? 9:41 to 3:30ish - IIRC she was driving the scenic route with YM during part of this time.

If you look back in the thread there is a link documenting the fact that KC was in the garage with the car on the 16th after the odor was reported and before they took the car away.

 

[LambChop]

I think initially because GA was ex-LE and the fact that CA called it in they were not thinking about the car. If the child was indeed kidnapped they would need to get all the information they could from the only resource available to them which was KC. When that clearly proved to be a mistake they went after the car. Their biggest mistake, IMO, was trusting the A's.

 

[AZlawyer]

But LE had the same info as Cindy about:
1. Missing child for 31 days
2. No report of missing child by the mother
3. Car towed when it was thought to be in KC's possesion
4. Dead body smell in the car.
5. Obvious problems within the family evidenced by mother calling police on daughter re: stealing her car

So, if CA put together that there was a possible murder, then LE certainly should have put it together.
If we give LE a pass for not assuming the car to be important immediately, then we have to give CA and GA a pass as well. CA and GA were clearly disturbed by the car odor and made it known from the get go. So to GA and CA it may have been a prob immediately but to LE it was not.

But to CA, it was not a "major prob" until about 12 minutes after she got home from Gentiva and started going through the car (or the house? who knows?). So it seems to me she knew more than LE knew at that point. She knew she had found something that made the "prob" bigger than it had been a few hours earlier. Now that would have to be something pretty serious, if she didn't think a missing baby, abandoned car and carseat, and decomp odor were a "major prob."

IMHO, nothing like shoes, pants, or a clean butter knife would have sent Cindy from "oh well Casey will explain eventually" mode into "major prob call me ASAP" mode. IMHO, it is more likely that Cindy found something just before 4:27 pm that panicked her and that we and LE have not seen and will probably never see.

 

[JBean]

But to CA, it was not a "major prob" until about 12 minutes after she got home from Gentiva and started going through the car (or the house? who knows?). So it seems to me she knew more than LE knew at that point. She knew she had found something that made the "prob" bigger than it had been a few hours earlier. Now that would have to be something pretty serious, if she didn't think a missing baby, abandoned car and carseat, and decomp odor were a "major prob."

IMHO, nothing like shoes, pants, or a clean butter knife would have sent Cindy from "oh well Casey will explain eventually" mode into "major prob call me ASAP" mode. IMHO, it is more likely that Cindy found something just before 4:27 pm that panicked her and that we and LE have not seen and will probably never see.

The only problem I have with that scenario is that I don't understand why she would have been so persistent about calling LE, let alone telling them in the 911 call that the car smelled like a dead body. To me,I heard her put the pieces together in that last call. She went from annoyed to panicked. Maybe the major prob was shelling out x amount of bucks to get the cat out of hock.
I hear what you are saying and of course we can only guess, but to me if at 4:27 she had somethig that told her Caylee was dead she would not have continued to call LE. jmho.

 

[JBean]

I think initially because GA was ex-LE and the fact that CA called it in they were not thinking about the car. If the child was indeed kidnapped they would need to get all the information they could from the only resource available to them which was KC. When that clearly proved to be a mistake they went after the car. Their biggest mistake, IMO, was trusting the A's.

I disagree.
I think LE is trained to be thinking about all of that. They can investigate more than one angle at once. They are trained to keep their ears and eyes opened for inconsistencies and clues. They got both.
The A's were the only ones taking the decomp smell seriously. LE should have trusted the A's more on that one night.


ETA: Per YM's report he was immediately suspect of KC's story when he arrived and gave her an opportunity to change her story. This further confirms to me that they knew from the get go that something was not right:

http://www.wesh.com/download/2008/0717/16910180.pdf

 

[Muzikman]

But LE had the same info as Cindy about:
1. Missing child for 31 days
2. No report of missing child by the mother
3. Car towed when it was thought to be in KC's possesion
4. Dead body smell in the car.
5. Obvious problems within the family evidenced by mother calling police on daughter re: stealing her car

So, if CA put together that there was a possible murder, then LE certainly should have put it together.
If we give LE a pass for not assuming the car to be important immediately, then we have to give CA and GA a pass as well. CA and GA were clearly disturbed by the car odor and made it known from the get go. So to GA and CA it may have been a prob immediately but to LE it was not.

Something nobody has brought up, and I think it's worth mentioning: Just how busy was Orlando/Orange County that 1st night? How many calls was OCSO responding too? Were there any other major crimes - or numerous small crimes - happening? Were their resources taxed by other crimes? Maybe they would have liked to have more LEO's there, but could not. Worth checking out.

I don't think that the A's, at that point, thought that Casey had murdered Caylee. They were distraught, and wanted Caylee brought home ASAP.

The first 24-48 hours in a missing child investigation are the most critical. After that, the chances of finding the child alive drop dramatically.

I believe that in the first 24 hours of this investigation, LE was scrambling to figure out exactly what the story was with this crazy family, and where Caylee was. Priority #1. And it had to be mass confusion. Distraught grandparents, a mother that wastes time leading them all over Orlando looking for an Imaginanny, taking calls from friends of Casey's, following up on every lead as quickly as possible. How many times did Cindy call Yuri and leave him voicemails, while Yuri was taking Casey around Orlando? He didn't even have time to reply.

They had to think that the car was more or less safe, locked up in the Anthony's garage. Who knew that the A's would tamper with evidence and clean the car up - much of it before they were even called?

After that first 24 hours, when they finally figured out that Casey was a 1st rate liar and was covering up what happened, they moved quickly to lock up EVERYTHING possible.

Hindsight is 20/20. I know that in my life I've done things that, looking back, I wish I would have done differenly and/or better. Nothing on the level of this case though, where every single tiny thing is picked apart to the Nth degree.

While I wish they would have sealed up the car earlier myself, I can understand why they didn't. Mass confusion. And I don't think that the Anthony's put a lot of emphasis on the car, the emphasis was on Finding Caylee. NOW.

My :twocents:

 

[darnudes]

But LE had the same info as Cindy about:
1. Missing child for 31 days
2. No report of missing child by the mother
3. Car towed when it was thought to be in KC's possesion
4. Dead body smell in the car.
5. Obvious problems within the family evidenced by mother calling police on daughter re: stealing her car

So, if CA put together that there was a possible murder, then LE certainly should have put it together.
If we give LE a pass for not assuming the car to be important immediately, then we have to give CA and GA a pass as well. CA and GA were clearly disturbed by the car odor and made it known from the get go. So to GA and CA it may have been a prob immediately but to LE it was not.

Should point out too that Cindy knew who she was dealing with, Casey - Yuri at this time did not, although it didn't him long. I bet as soon as he heard/saw that first statement from Casey he had her pegged, hence the driving her around to get her to show them the various places and then lock her into to her lies.

I agreee it is troubling about the car but I don't think we will know for sure what Yuri thought or suspected until he tells us at trial, should it get to that point.

 

[TorisMom003]

The only problem I have with that scenario is that I don't understand why she would have been so persistent about calling LE, let alone telling them in the 911 call that the car smelled like a dead body. To me,I heard her put the pieces together in that last call. She went from annoyed to panicked. Maybe the major prob was shelling out x amount of bucks to get the cat out of hock.
I hear what you are saying and of course we can only guess, but to me if at 4:27 she had somethig that told her Caylee was dead she would not have continued to call LE. jmho.

My theory on this is something that I have said before. Cindy and George knew when they picked up the car that someone had died. They cleaned up the car and tried to get a hold of Casey to get her to explain. At that time they thought that Caylee was safe and the person that was dead and had been in Casey's car was someone else. It was not until the 3rd 911 call that Cindy made that she realized that someone that had died was Caylee. Cindy made the first 2 911 calls because she couldn't get Casey to take her to Caylee. It was a "bluff" of sorts to make Casey do what Cindy wanted. When Cindy started to put two and two together and realized that Caylee was dead, then she made that heartbreaking 3rd 911 call. Before that it didn't matter to her or George who had died as long as Casey and Caylee were safe.

 

[RR0004]

The question from some was whether it would have any impact at all. Was there any evidence missed or compromised? Reasonable questions.
They seemingly missed an opportunity, it happens. will it matter? Maybe yes maybe no. Threat to the case? Not in my opinion.
As far as CA cleaning the car, why would she be smarter than LE when they didn't preserve evidence right away either?

Speaks to motive...if you ask me.

 

[RR0004]

I disagree.
I think LE is trained to be thinking about all of that. They can investigate more than one angle at once. They are trained to keep their ears and eyes opened for inconsistencies and clues. They got both.
The A's were the only ones taking the decomp smell seriously. LE should have trusted the A's more on that one night.


ETA: Per YM's report he was immediately suspect of KC's story when he arrived and gave her an opportunity to change her story. This further confirms to me that they knew from the get go that something was not right:

http://www.wesh.com/download/2008/0717/16910180.pdf

Did LE ever ask Cindy why she had reported the car stolen?

 

[I Din Doot]

If I were on the jury and presented with evidence, including a delay in processing the car, I vote GUILTY. I don't think KC is that smart, made some obvious errors in her gettaway plan, and you insult my intelligence (as a juror) to think I can't figure this out.

 

[The Eunice Burns]

But LE had the same info as Cindy about:
1. Missing child for 31 days
2. No report of missing child by the mother
3. Car towed when it was thought to be in KC's possesion
4. Dead body smell in the car.
5. Obvious problems within the family evidenced by mother calling police on daughter re: stealing her car

So, if CA put together that there was a possible murder, then LE certainly should have put it together.
If we give LE a pass for not assuming the car to be important immediately, then we have to give CA and GA a pass as well. CA and GA were clearly disturbed by the car odor and made it known from the get go. So to GA and CA it may have been a prob immediately but to LE it was not.

There is only one thing though, that I take issue with. The "get go" for GA was at Johnson's though. IMO That was when he smelled the stench and had that immediate thought that he later described to LE as *please don't let this be Caylee or KC". Then when he arrived home (he later relates), Cindy's immediate reaction at the smell was *Jesus Christ, what died?!* I guess in my mind, if GA had already considered the horrible possibility that Caylee was lying dead in the trunk, and she had not been seen or heard from in 31 days, that was the "get go" moment, the time to call 911. We are talking about a delay on LE's part with the car (and that troubles me some), but more than that, I hold G&C more responsible for any delay. CA goes to work and tells her co-workers about the smell! One of them told her to call the police. Good advice, but no, she goes and tries to find KC. That has always disturbed me, and I find those actions indicative of a cover-up. JMO

 

[okiedokietoo]

I think that LE initially didn't have probable cause to get a search warrant for the car - they were looking for a living child - driving KC around looking for "nanny's apartment" and "nanny's mothers apartment"....