UT -Susan Powell, 28, West Valley City, 6 Dec 2009 - #4

[nervous_nellie]

Humm, I guess this (BBM) is the best answer. She clearly chose religion over marriage? Just trying to understand the family dynamics.

i think it was more of her wanting josh to get his priorities organized properly... i guess that in theory if you are living the right way and are worthy of the temple recommend then he would also be treating her & the boys much better. i dont think she was "choosing" religion over josh, i think she was trying to get josh to choose religion. after all they met at an LDS function and he passed himself off as LDS and then proceeded to live/behave non-LDS. and if he is anywhere nearly as bad as we have heard about him - im sure she was getting desperate for josh to embrace any positive element....

eta:
i mean living the "right way" as CHOOSING not to abuse your wife in ANY way, holding down steady employment, not spending money that you do not have etc. in reality it really doesnt have much to do with LDS as many many people live the "right" way.

also it sounds like susan thought that josh could choose not to be abusive anymore and unfortunately for her that was not the case.

 

[LogicalMinds]

Well...from what I have read....the Man enters his own "heaven" and brings the woman with him...for women in LDS, the key to getting to heaven is thru a man

although they are NOT polygamous here on earth, in each "individual" heaven, each run by a man/king they would/would have other women as women whose earthly hubbies are not LDS, or not in "good standing", would have to be brought thru to heaven by another man

so without Josh, Susan had to be thinking about finding a "good" guy to take her to heaven in the long run

in the short term?? I am sure that she just wanted someone compatable...to go to Church with her since that was important....to support her efforts and join in the companionship of the church functions

and the boys?? Yes, probably to be a role model for the boys

I can imagine that anyone who is devoted to a religion is going to have problems when a spouse is not participating or even belittling their faith and choices

To me the LDS, seems to work great for those who believe in it, and are into it...you don't see many Mormans married to people in other faith...not many "mixed religion marriages"

 

[LogicalMinds]

Didn't JoVanna say that it was Josh who invited her to stay for supper?
I'm wondering why he would be wanting her to stick around, you'd think if he was up to something then he'd not want outsiders hanging around. Did he want her there so she could be a witness to just how loving and caring he is, fixing a meal, bringing a blanket etc.
If Josh was smart enough to put on a show that night, then why not continue the charade and act half-way concerned after hearing his wife was missing?

VB

It COULD be the other way around...Josh might have wanted JoVanna as a "buffer"...to forestall a confrontation with Susan

I personally think that Susan had decided to tell him that it was over, divorce time...new year, new plan , divorce

and Josh wanted to stop this...JoVanna..acting caring etc...held off the ultimatum...I think Susan went to bed to get rid of JoVanna and confront Josh

and he flipped

I really would love to hear what "new job" (did it even exist?) he was due to start the next day
would also love to hear where /when he really worked in the past few years, what he made

I think Susan was fed up and done with him...unfortunately, like so many other tragic women before her, she made the mistake of telling him that when they were alone, with no plan/family/friends around her to buffer it

 

[Lipin One]

Ok, so wind-blown hands happen because of prolonged exposure to windy and cold conditions.

Did the kids have ANY cold-related injury? It hasn't been mentioned anywhere, so it's safe to assume that the answer is no.

I think it's also safe to assume that Kids skin is more sensitive to cold than adult skin.

So, the kids were not 100% with Josh during the time they were "missing" on December 6th/7th.

Did he leave them inside the van while he disposed of the mother's body? Did he leave them with someone? A relative or friend, or in a place he thought they would be safe?

I doubt that he would leave them in the van and venture out on the wilderness in fear the car engine may shut down and the kids would be left without warmth from the heater...

...unless he didn't venture too far from the van. In that case he didn't stay out long enough to get wind-blown hands.

So, he left the kids somewhere else as he did his deed.

He either carried the body (maybe hauled on a sled... thus the excuse of having a sled in the van... AKA: sledding trip, etc...) or buried it.

That would've exposed the back of his hands more than any part of his body, if his face was covered. Though his nose shows red in some pictures, but that could be because he had been crying.

Just my musing...

 

[CCup]

I just keep thinking he had to stop somewhere in his travels that night. Those boys had to go to the bathroom or need a diaper change at some point.

 

[lemonmoussetart]

I just keep thinking he had to stop somewhere in his travels that night. Those boys had to go to the bathroom or need a diaper change at some point.

so true, not to mention of couple of gas stops

 

[KaylynnCouture]

Humm, I guess this (BBM) is the best answer. She clearly chose religion over marriage? Just trying to understand the family dynamics.

In LDS homes, a lot of times if your husband or spouse isn't an active LDS follower/church member, the other spouse won't back down on the religious beliefs and therefore, it looks like they're choosing religion over marriage. It's common, if the family dynamic is one such as between Susan and her husband.

 

[lonetraveler]

Oh, Panthera! We should be roommates! (lol!)

I am exactly the same way- barefoot as much as possible (I hate wearing shoes in my own house), and when the weather gets cold, I wear fuzzy socks!

LOL, I'm actually wearing fuzzy socks with my flipflops right now. I fight having to wear real shoes every year. I think I need to live in the tropics.

 

[lonetraveler]

Did Susan carpool to work or did Josh have to take her and then pick her up at the end of the day? Or was Josh (reportedly starting a new job) suppose to be dropped off at his new job and picked up by Susan since there was only one vehicle?

 

[LogicalMinds]

Just common sense tells us that the more "strict" , structured, a religion is , the more that people will insist that a spouse be involved, and that they won't want to marry outside the religion'


which is why you don't see many "Muslims" married to non muslims ...

I live in South Florida and I know a fair amount of "mixed" marriages, Jewish and Protestant, Jewish and Catholic...BUT the Jewish people are/were "reform" NOT Orthodox...you don't see the Orthodox Jews with the beards and the long skirts marrying out of their religion

same goes with Amish....devout "born again" Christians...and so on


people who are not involved with their religion totally can be quite compatable...like a Jewish person who goes to Temple on High Holy days married to a Christian who goes to church for Christmas Mass and Easter....they can have a Hannaka bush and a Christmas tree and be open minded

I don't think that many Mormons marry outside their faith and still remain active in it...their big deal is to marry in the Temple right??

 

[Vegas Bride]

My dh's aunt who was raised catholic married a mormon, she also became mormon and their children were raised mormon. I don't know if there was an understanding between them before marriage that she would convert or not, they both were very active in their local stake.

VB

 

[KaylynnCouture]

Just common sense tells us that the more "strict" , structured, a religion is , the more that people will insist that a spouse be involved, and that they won't want to marry outside the religion'


which is why you don't see many "Muslims" married to non muslims ...

I live in South Florida and I know a fair amount of "mixed" marriages, Jewish and Protestant, Jewish and Catholic...BUT the Jewish people are/were "reform" NOT Orthodox...you don't see the Orthodox Jews with the beards and the long skirts marrying out of their religion

same goes with Amish....devout "born again" Christians...and so on


people who are not involved with their religion totally can be quite compatable...like a Jewish person who goes to Temple on High Holy days married to a Christian who goes to church for Christmas Mass and Easter....they can have a Hannaka bush and a Christmas tree and be open minded

I don't think that many Mormons marry outside their faith and still remain active in it...their big deal is to marry in the Temple right??

Most LDS marry other LDS members, but that doesn't always mean the men/women they marry are active LDS, or devout LDS followers. I know some LDS that are married to other Christians, but not necessarily of the LDS faith. It just all varies.

Most LDS don't get married in the Temple. They get sealed in the Temple. Sealing is essentially a practice that seals two people together for eternity. Some LDS members get married, but don't get sealed, it all depends on how active they are in the church and how important it is to them.

 

[Fairy1]

OK, since many believe this is about religion, here is my question.

Why would Susan make the alleged ultimatum about getting back into the LDS religion? Why is this so important as to be a marriage deal breaker?

The fact that they met at church and were married in the temple tells me that Josh and Susan entered their marriage on equal religious footing. Seems somewhere along the way, Josh changed the rules. Whereas, once they had children and moved away from Susan's family, her ties to the church most likely became even more important to her. I would think even moreso once Josh's controlling and abusive behavior became more prevelent.

 

[LogicalMinds]

Most LDS marry other LDS members, but that doesn't always mean the men/women they marry are active LDS, or devout LDS followers. I know some LDS that are married to other Christians, but not necessarily of the LDS faith. It just all varies.

Most LDS don't get married in the Temple. They get sealed in the Temple. Sealing is essentially a practice that seals two people together for eternity. Some LDS members get married, but don't get sealed, it all depends on how active they are in the church and how important it is to them.

Thanks...

I would venture to guess that some Mormons are not as religious or involved, just as people of other faiths are more (or less) involved

My own grandparents were all from the "old country">> 3 from Ireland, 1 from Wales

My Dad's family were rabid Irish Catholics...my grandmother's sister was a nun, one of her daughters became a nun (*my aunt)...her sister "cared" for 8 priests and they had a priest to dinner every Sunday, they did novenas, retreats....had "holy water" fonts in their home, pictures, statues of saints, wore scapulars (put them on me)!!

My Mom's parents met in Liverpool...when her Welsh mom was in Nursing school and her Irish dad hurt his hand at a factory ...their marriage was opposed by both families, in Wales and Ireland..and considered a "mixed" marriage !! Catholic and Methodist....they were eventually married in BOTH churches and I think they came to US to get away from the inlaws LOL

My mom was raised Catholic...but much less strict...her father went to Mass a few times a year...her Mom was still Methodist but not too involved...so I think that it just depends

I can NOT imagine my dad's (devoted) mother married to a NON Catholic or even a Catholic that she could not have made go to Mass every week (she herself went daily)

So I am familiar with families and religious "differences">> not to mention that in my motley crue of a family we later had Jehovah's witnesses, Christian Scientest, I have a 2nd cousin who is a devoted Scientologist and lives in Clearwater, works for them (and yes I avoid him too as he is always trying to get me "clear" LOL)

let's just say I have a lot of relatives I avoid as they might try to foist some literature/lectures on me LOL

and the more "devout" they are, the less likely they are to marry other religions

I also have a 2nd (Cradle Catholic) cousin in NY who is happily married to a Jewish guy for years and I think they let their kids "decide" not sure if they "decided" on much or ??

I still think the more "devout" and involved a person is, the more they want their spouse to share that

In Susan's case, she met Josh and he presented himself as a Mormon, and I think she later felt betrayed , not to mention he was obviously a lousy husband, a liar, a mooch, a n'er do well...and control freak

oh yeah...and a crummy web designer haha

 

[mayelf]

Just because someone is the best friend of someone, it doesn't mean they are going to be told the "embarrassing" facts about their lives.

Personal experience - I never once told my friends about abusive things that were done to me. I wanted them to see I had a good life too. However when one of my friends figured it out, my ex decided he hated her and her child that I babysat. He would say the most cruel things to her child. But I still didn't confide in her with anything.

So I just don't think that just because her "best friend" doesn't know if there was emotional abuse in the house or that she was planning to leave, doesn't mean there wasn't.

 

[oh_gal]

I just keep thinking he had to stop somewhere in his travels that night. Those boys had to go to the bathroom or need a diaper change at some point.

Probably put pull-ups on both of them...a la "The Love-Struck Astronaut"...he doesn't strike me as the diaper-changing, nurturing type.

 

[mayelf]

They're boys.. boys can pee anywhere...

 

[nervous_nellie]

They're boys.. boys can pee anywhere...

maybe the four year old...but the two year old?? i dont have any idea as i do not have any kids,lol. but i have a baby brother and i dont think he could do that when he was two :crazy:

 

[omegagal]

OK, since many believe this is about religion, here is my question.

Why would Susan make the alleged ultimatum about getting back into the LDS religion? Why is this so important as to be a marriage deal breaker?

Being married in the temple, they made certain covenants with each other. She simply wanted Josh to live up to those covenants. Josh not going to church is not what she bought into and it's not what she wanted for her children.

 

[Recovering-Lurker]

maybe the four year old...but the two year old?? i dont have any idea as i do not have any kids,lol. but i have a baby brother and i dont think he could do that when he was two :crazy:

Diaper I'm sure.