Skull fracture question
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I don't know. Anyone?
I think he was warned. That's why he failed to do the basic procedures to determine TOD. I think he was told to do the minimum, telling the truth about what he SAW, but not to mention what he THOUGHT caused it.
I'd hate to think he was paid off. How much money could buy a child killer's freedom? It would be so awful to think that the obliteration of the answers to her death came so cheaply.
The position of coroner varies from district to district. In some cases, a coroner is appointed. In others, it is an elected position. Not sure about this case, but if he was appointed by the DA, he may have been classified as an "at will" employee (meaning he can be fired at any time, without cause). If he was "encouraged" not to delve too deeply, it isn't hard to figure out the correlation between the sloppy procedures and the unemployment line.
Coroners are not always medical examiners, either. But I think Mayer was (meaning he was an MD). There was also another medical examiner in Boulder, but we don't hear much about her in relation to this case. I have read that she also examined JB.
I keep thinking of the police wanting Mayer to keep the body longer, in case there was something that may have been missed. Like the alleged "stun gun marks". That could have been studied further, making the exhumation question a moot point. It was anyway- the Rs refused and the DA (who could have asked a judge for a warrant, overriding the parents' wishes) also refused. Mayer also refused to examine the body further.
I know the DA's office accused the police of wanting to "ransom the body" by holding her until the Rs were interviewed. I am not saying there might not have been some of that thinking. But JB got released and buried pretty fast, for an unsolved murder. But then it had to be done quickly- there had to be that open coffin, complete with frozen-in-time perfect (Patsy's words) little Beauty Queen wearing gorgeous pageant dress and tiara.
Coroners are not always medical examiners, either. But I think Mayer was (meaning he was an MD). There was also another medical examiner in Boulder, but we don't hear much about her in relation to this case. I have read that she also examined JB.
I keep thinking of the police wanting Mayer to keep the body longer, in case there was something that may have been missed. Like the alleged "stun gun marks". That could have been studied further, making the exhumation question a moot point. It was anyway- the Rs refused and the DA (who could have asked a judge for a warrant, overriding the parents' wishes) also refused. Mayer also refused to examine the body further.
I know the DA's office accused the police of wanting to "ransom the body" by holding her until the Rs were interviewed. I am not saying there might not have been some of that thinking. But JB got released and buried pretty fast, for an unsolved murder. But then it had to be done quickly- there had to be that open coffin, complete with frozen-in-time perfect (Patsy's words) little Beauty Queen wearing gorgeous pageant dress and tiara.
In my humble opinion, that's the crux of the matter. Anyone who doesn't know what I mean, I'd be happy to outline it.
Ripley007
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I don't give a crap what anyone else thinks about this case. I KNOW (very satisfied) that Patsy Ramsey WROTE the Randsom note-therefore Patsy knew exactally what happened to her daughter. Case closed!
The randsom note is THE BIGGEST INDICATOR of guilt IMHO. Since P wrote it. P KNOWS what (and why) killed her daughter. That's enough for me.
The randsom note is THE BIGGEST INDICATOR of guilt IMHO. Since P wrote it. P KNOWS what (and why) killed her daughter. That's enough for me.
Sophie
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Sophie
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I know, JMO, I have wondered about that a lot. I generally don't believe conspiracy theories but, if you speak to anyone in the medical profession, they will be staggered by the failure to take the body temperatures and the nail clipper blunder. WRT body temperature, it is apparently so elementary that even first year medical students would know that it had to be done never mind experienced pathologists.
Of course, it may just be another example of the mistakes and incompetence that came together in an amazing confluence in the Ramsey case..but it does raise red flags.
It is an elected position:
Boulder County Coroner's Office
The Coroner's Office investigates all sudden and/or unattended deaths throughout the county. Through an investigation a determination is made as to the Cause and the Manner of death. An autopsy may be required depending upon the circumstances of the death. The Coroner's Office initiates death certificates; notifies family members of deaths; distributes accurate and timely information to family members, police agencies, health care professionals, insurance companies, and the public through the media; assist mortuaries in facilitating a prompt funeral: and testifies in civil and criminal proceedings.
The Boulder County Coroner is Thomas J Faure. Mr. Faure was elected Coroner in 2002. Mr. Faure has an extensive background since 1976 as Medical Investigator in Seattle, San Francisco and New Mexico. He has a Masters Degree in Public Administration from Seattle University. He is also a Diplomate of the American Board of Medicolegal Death Investigators.
Other staff include: John E. Meyer, MD. Dr. Meyer, who was Coroner from 1987 to 2002, is a board certified Forensic Pathologist. Dr. Meyer is an integral part of the day-to-day functions of the Office as a Deputy Coroner/Chief Pathologist. The remaining staff consists of five full-time Medical Investigators and an Administrative Technician. The administrative offices of the Coroner are located in the Criminal Justice Center located at at 1777 6th Street. The medical facilities are shared with Boulder Community Hospital.
The Boulder County Coroner's Office generates two reports. One is the autopsy report which is as detailed description of the medical examination. The autopsy report is a public record under the Colorado Public Records Act, 30-10-601. The Second report is the Report of Death. That report is generated by the medical investigator and details the demographic information, scene circumstances and any medical findings, including the cause and manner of death. The report of Death is available only to the legal next-of-kin, police and District Attorney unless authorized by the legal next-of-kin. The cost for the autopsy report or the Report of Death is $0.25 per page. There is no charge to the next-of-kin for either report.
If you should desire an autopsy report, we suggest that you contact our office by phone to check on the status of the report. Autopsy reports may take anywhere from four weeks to twelve weeks depending upon the nature of the case and any additional testing that may be performed. You may also request the report in writing. Please include the name of the decedent, the date of death, if known, and a phone number so we may contact you with the information concerning the cost for the report.
http://www.bouldercounty.org/coroner/
Boulder County Coroner Tom Faure won't seek re-election
By Vanessa Miller, Camera staff writer
Posted: 02/03/2010
Just three months after Boulder County's deputy coroner and chief pathologist announced plans to retire, Coroner Tom Faure says he's decided not to run for re-election in the fall.
That means Boulder County will lose a combined 51 years of experience in the Coroner's Office, and local law enforcement officials said it's crucial that the office be given the tools to succeed through the transition and for years to come.
District Attorney Stan Garnett said it's time "for all of us involved in law enforcement to make sure that the Boulder County Coroner's Office has sufficient support to function at the level our community expects."
The Coroner's Office is an "essential" part of law enforcement, Garnett said, but the office "has struggled with subpar facilities for quite some time." It's in a "cramped space in the justice center," he said, and autopsies are performed at Boulder Community Hospital.
Other counties -- such as Arapahoe and Douglas counties -- have state-of-the-art facilities, Garnett said, and "an excellent forensic pathology capacity is essential for criminal prosecution."
Boulder County now doesn't pay for a full-time forensic pathologist, and chief pathologist John Meyer performs autopsies on a per-case basis. In the fall, Faure asked the county to spend $227,200 on a full-time forensic pathologist.
The county rejected that request to fund a full-time position and instead bumped up the coroner's budget slightly and suggested Boulder County consider sharing a pathologist with a neighboring county.
"After lots of lengthy discussions, we came to understand that a full-time forensic pathologist would have more time available than case load we have in Boulder County," said Commissioner Ben Pearlman.
It's important that the Coroner's Office has the "right facilities," Pearlman said.
"It's a question of figuring out the best way to get there, and we will have to look carefully at any proposal that might come before us," he said. "It's one of the reasons why we think it's going to be exceedingly important in the future for all local governments to work closely together to make sure we're not duplicating infrastructure and using all of our tax dollars to the greatest end."
Meyer said Wednesday that sharing a pathologist would be difficult.
"That person would be moving from place to place on a daily basis, and having access to that person might not be that good," Meyer said.
With the current level of cases the office handles, Meyer said, having a forensic pathologist in the office with expertise is important.
"It's a good time for the county to invest in that," he said.
Meyer -- who started as a consultant with the Coroner's Office in 1982, was coroner from 1986 to 2002 and stayed on as deputy coroner when Faure was elected -- said he'll leave the office once the coroner hires someone to take his place.
Faure said the forensic pathologist position remains an "unresolved issue" but added that his decision not to run for a third four-year term in November isn't tied to funding issues or available resources.
"I think it's time," said Faure, who has been with the office for 23 years and was first elected coroner in 2002.
When asked whether Boulder County needs new facilities -- including a morgue connected to the Coroner's Office -- Faure said, "There will need to be changes."
"It would be more convenient to have it all in one place," he said. "In the future, that is something that will need to be addressed."
Faure said no one has expressed interest to him in running for coroner, but he's planning to do what it takes to help a new coroner make a smooth transition.
Because of the "key role" the Coroner's Office plays in law enforcement investigations, Boulder Police Chief Mark Beckner said, Boulder County needs to have up-to-date instruments and resources.
"With the resources we have, we should have top-flight facilities," Beckner said, adding that Boulder County is a leader in the state in many areas. "We want to do that in investigating violent crime, too."
Sheriff Joe Pelle said losing the experience of Meyer and Faure is a concern because a coroner's work is "really critical to law enforcement."
"It's scary," Pelle said. "Who is going to step up and do this?"
http://www.dailycamera.com/boulder-county-news/ci_14324856
That will be a real mess.
There was pressure at the impact point but it is unlikely that would cause a long, wide split unless a second nearly simultaneous injury occurred at or nearly at the same time, causing two fractures to join.
You might also want to try hitting a coconut with a hammer just enough to cause a depression and fracture. Then put the coconut on the counter and press down with your hand, putting your weight behind it. The fracture will widen and lengthen (or at least it should!!!) because of the relatively high pressure on the coconut (and other reasons but I'm too tired to get into that again tonight
Just bumping this thread since the head wound discussion seems to be popular again.
The entire head wound suggests, to me, a low-velocity/high-pressure injury.
Thank you for bumping this!
Could you give an example of a low-velocity/high-impact scenario that might fit JB's case?
A low-velocity/high-pressure wound could possibly come from being pushed and falling onto something such as a faucet fixture or bathtub edge or door knob, any of which are relatively slow-speed movements, relatively driven by a lot of force (high pressure) directed onto one small, specific area.
A bullet wound would be an opposite example (high-velocity/low-pressure wound). The bullet is very speedy with little pressure as it enters the target.
joeskidbeck
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MurriFlower
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How about a child, whose head is on the floor, being pushed down and held firmly around the throat with one hand and the butt of a hand gun brought down on the skull by the other hand?
I don't know that being a child rather than being an adult would make a difference, but other than that part of your statement, yes, that would be an example of a low-velocity/high-pressure wound.
If you are specifically referring to JonBenet Ramsey, then there should be hand-finger imprints on her neck. I don't believe the autopsy reported such evidence of manual strangulation nor did the photos as shown on-line. The autopsy states ligature strangulation with accompanying head trauma (or words to that effect).
MurriFlower
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No no, I didn't mean to imply that she was strangled with the hand, just held down, no need for the fingers to dig in and leave marks.
My question was only addressed to the specific low-velocity/high-pressure nature and the possibility of this being caused by a blow from a pistol butt to the head of someone who was being held firmly on the floor. I mentioned the child as I believe a child's skull would be easier to fracture than an adults, being as bone density/mass would be less.
Too bad there wasn't "touch DNA" testing then. I also think there is a way for prints to be lifted from a body, isn't there? I believe it is done with a type of glue. That might not be of help anyway. Gloves could have been worn.
As far as whether a child's skull would be easier to fracture- I guess that is open to debate. I've read that a child's skull (and other bones) is more flexible and yielding, so maybe it wouldn't be. Bones do get thicker as we approach puberty (in women, estrogen does this), so her skull may have been thinner than it would be if she were an adult.
JMO8778
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In the book PMPT,it says JB's body was tented and sprayed with super glue (or like substance),and one lone fingerprint was lifted from it.It doesn't say who's it was though.
But like the spots found on the pieces of carpet removed by JB's bed...no one is talking about what the evidence showed.
But like the spots found on the pieces of carpet removed by JB's bed...no one is talking about what the evidence showed.
MurriFlower
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Ya gotta wonder eh? Only just the 'one' fingerprint?? How many people actually touched this body that we know of, but just one fingerprint?