Peru - Stephany Flores, 21, murdered in Lima hotel room, 30 May 2010 #16

[Kat]

In any event, it is such an overkill and shows such hatred and extreme violence towards women (likely with just his own body/hands, fists, (shirt) etc.), that I stand by a sexual rejection.

Bumping this up from a few pages back because I wanted to respond to epiphany with a thought and got to thinking about something else in this case .

I agree epiphany. He could very well have had one motive to lure her to the room and another motive for murdering her.

He could have had both motives simultaneously. He could have had one motive as primary and the other secondary. I don't know at this point but after reading all the wonderful theories here I can't make up my mind as to how the motives unfolded.

(for reference I'm talking about the motives of sexual assault (his particular brand of deviancy) and robbery.

 

[Carolina Girl]

But we haven't heard anything of her having broken ribs or any broken bones except her neck. I'm wondering if we just haven't heard it all and he literally beat her to a pulp. If he did go ballistic, he might have kicked and stomped her too. O man.

I know, but we were trying to explain why the large red streak down her chest? This is a possibility? We haven't heard it all, IMO. Much more gruesome to come.

 

[hollyblue]

In any event, it is such an overkill and shows such hatred and extreme violence towards women (likely with just his own body/hands, fists, (shirt) etc.), that I stand by a sexual rejection.

I don't follow the group that he killed her for sexual rejection, but do on the overkill. That being said, and this is kinda gross, but would they (ME) be able to tell if it were menstral blood on his shirt..aside from blood say from her nose? I would think so, but not sure.

 

[panthera]

It would be interesting to see what they watch. Wonder if they have cable? Do they watch the news, because I'm sure it's all about Joran.

Even their local tv stations I'd imagine would be more about this case than the cable news. Although it would be nice if he could watch NG's show.....or Geraldo.

Have a good night everyone! :seeya:

 

[Carolina Girl]

I don't follow the group that he killed her for sexual rejection, but do on the overkill. That being said, and this is kinda gross, but would they (ME) be able to tell if it were menstral blood on his shirt..aside from blood say from her nose? I would think so, but not sure.

They could, I couldn't.
"Menstrual blood is a mixture of blood and uterine lining tissue, which is not found in regular blood."
http://wiki.answers.com/Q/What_is_the_difference_between_menstrual_blood_and_regular_blood

Sorry guys.

 

[GetSmart]

I know, but we were trying to explain why the large red streak down her chest? This is a possibility? We haven't heard it all, IMO. Much more gruesome to come.

I am thinking since the mattress was reported to moved perhaps when he moving her body it scraped on that hard wood bed frame they showed on the room clip.

 

[Woe.be.gone]

You do have some great super duper parents. I went thru a similar incident with my daughter at that age also due to a girl friend or so she said. I reamed both my daughter and her girl friend a new ***. They are both fine now after 10 years.It was cosmetics though. Extremely tempting to young girls. Sorry to be o/t. In Jorans' case , quite a different story. That Van Der Sloot household went thru hell IMO if even his siblings were in some kind of danger from Joran. I always hope that with the exposure of a Joran story., some parents will have their eyes opened and do something pro active when they have a bad seed in their midst.
The Dutch are pretty secret/reserved about internal family problems. Outside appearances are very important even if based on lies.
My own grandfather was a pedophile when he got older. No police, family handled it by never letting him out of their sight. He always had a family member(different ones)present till he died.

Yes and now I'm grateful. And I know sometimes we are comparing apples to oranges but who knows when a bad seed is born versus when an adventurous seed if you will takes off in a wrong direction because nobody is paying attention or stops him in his tracks.

What is perplexing about Joran, and I wish we knew if the stories are indeed fact or do we?, if the report is true that he killed his own dog? As a mother, that would totally freak me out and we would be in intensive therapy immediately and for a long time. Then the man over a bridge incident - that's murder too. What were the ramifications to Joran for that? Are these things true? If so, this is serious stuff - not normal teenage stuff at all. Drug experimentation and a few wrong turns here and there are often overcome imo but the kind of stuff we are hearing about Joran is over the top. I never heard these details when following the NH case over normal T.V. reporting.

If he is indeed mentally ill why hasn't something been done about him before this? What should one do in these cases? My heart goes out to people whose children are struggling where it seems there is no happy end in sight for them or their parents. At some point one would have to let go to a certain extent I would think. Almost like a death.

Regarding policing our own, my dad's mom had a friend - this would have been way before WWll, everywhere the friend went along came her mother but she was a grown woman. It turns out the younger woman was a kleptomaniac and would always try to steal something from her hostess. Her mother caught on to this so she never could let her go anywhere alone. Other than that, she was a nice lady. :crazy: I think so many problems are made worse when we avoid admitting that there is an elephant in the room.

 

[Carolina Girl]

I am thinking since the mattress was reported to moved perhaps when he moving her body it scraped on that hard wood bed frame they showed on the room clip.

Do bodies inflict damage after death? Certainly not bruises. Maybe scrapes?

 

[Cottages]

Yes, it was written on the tv screen. Plans to change plea to not guilty and wants to have the confession thrown out.

"Wants to have..." That's nice.

I got some bad news for JVS. That confession isn't going anywhere in a country where it is not against one's substantive or procedural rights to detain them for a week without charging them with a crime.

And EVEN IF it was thrown out, you could divide the evidence in quarters, and only use 25% of the evidence and convict him without a problem.

In fact, if I was the prosecutor, I'd voluntarily put his confession in the shredder just to save time. There. Can't raise that issue. Or better yet, tell him that I'll voluntarily shred the confession (even sign a contract tho that effect ;-) once I *locate* NH's remains.

 

[Kat]

Well yes, did you get a chance to read the link I posted a couple of hours ago? From the NG show actually of 2 weeks ago or so. It actually included that they concluded she scratched herself--skin injury on her neck region from her own nails. This coul dbe very important IMO. Iif their supposition is correct, IMO, it may mean she was trying at one point to remove his hands from her throat. Again, if that supposition is true, maybe he did some strangling at first.

A few days back, I hypothesized that the first thing he did was grab her throat, then elbowed her when she didn't given in to his threat. I wonder upon reading that today, if he didn't just immediatey start strangling. And her massive damage to her face and skull and brain was after she was first rendered unconscious from strangling. And not the other way around. So that one sentence about her scratching her own neck could be very important in reconstructing the crime IMO.

I'm going to play around with your hypothesizing and throw some ideas out there and if you want you can give me feedback (I really like this part of being a member of WS! It's what we all do best IMHO!).

Of course all of the below is also hypothesizing and my humble thoughts due to change as more details and facts come out.

Right he would have possibly grabbed her by the throat and then driven his elbow into her face. (sorry to put that so harshly).

He says she hit her head and the next thing he knows she is on the floor. Did she get the injury to the back of her head (IIRC she had one too, if not I apologize) when she hit the wall, headboard, nightstand..etc. because of the force of the blow from his elbow threw her back and he lost grip on her neck? Or was the floor of the room carpeted or non-carpeted and she hit her head on a bare floor if it was not.

Then he states as above the next thing he knew she was on the floor. (or course we can't trust a word out of this man's mouth-disclaimer!) He either sat on her chest or knelt on her chest. Effectively limiting her ability to fight back. Did he also push her down with his one of his hands to hold her still while she while injured from the initial blow attempted to fight him off thereby possibly scratching her ownself? IMHO she would have been disoriented and in extreme pain and incapacitated to effectively defend herself if it is true he struck her in the face with an elbow and then proceeded to sit on her.

Then he could have delivered as many blows as he felt was needed. Creating her other injuries and COD.

Ugh, like I said earlier (not directed at Bobarino) he is one of the sickest individuals I've seen in a very long time. Not ill---just sick.

 

[epiphany]

It would be interesting to see what they watch. Wonder if they have cable? Do they watch the news, because I'm sure it's all about Joran.

Yes, after classes and homework believe they can watch up to three hours an evening; four on the weekends.

 

[Woe.be.gone]

And some ON medication act out in dangerous ways. All murderers have some form of mental illness. "Normal" people don't commit murder, for any reason other than self defense.

That's the problem, eventually one has to take a stance. Do your sympathies lie with the victim and their family or with the criminal (regardless of why they're like that) that you can't 'fix' anyway.

More and more you hear about 'normal' people killing their spouses, etc. Obviously many sickos are able to hide it pretty good until the day they blow.
Other people are mercilessly stalked and terrified and the law offers no protection until the day they are taken out prematurely from this world by the hand of another.

 

[Carolina Girl]

Good night, thank you all for the input. No wonder i have trouble sleeping at night. God Bless.

 

[epiphany]

I don't follow the group that he killed her for sexual rejection, but do on the overkill. That being said, and this is kinda gross, but would they (ME) be able to tell if it were menstral blood on his shirt..aside from blood say from her nose? I would think so, but not sure.

Believe one of the report's wording concerning description of blood on the sanitary pad made a few of us speculate that she was nearing the end, or on the last day of her cycle.

 

[epiphany]

I know, but we were trying to explain why the large red streak down her chest? This is a possibility? We haven't heard it all, IMO. Much more gruesome to come.

Perhaps, a stomp? Maybe, a body drop?

 

[krowdkat]

Perhaps, a stomp? Maybe, a body drop?

I worked right hand with a cardiologist for 14 years. What I find curious is Joran's statement after the elbow to the nose and then the strangulation for about a minute, then he moves onto taking off his white shirt and suffocating Stephany because she was still alive. I believe he even stated he didn't remember for how long he held the white shirt to her mouth.

IMO, he sat on her mediastinum with his body weight, in particular knee and lower leg with upper body weight bareing down on her small frame (prior to her ultimate death) as he held his white shirt over her mouth, hence causing the bruising to her chest and ultimate death.

The elbow to her nose forcing nasal cartiledge into her skull near her eye socket could possibly have forced her eye out of place.

This of course is all JMHO.

 

[hollyblue]

Perhaps, a stomp? Maybe, a body drop?

The only thing I can think of would be if she was thrown or fell from the bed and the mattress was already askewed and she fell on the wooden bed rail (if there is one) holding the box springs. If he then pounced/jumped on her, that would seem to make a long bruise/mark like that. ?

 

[epiphany]

I worked right hand with a cardiologist for 14 years. What I find curious is Joran's statement after the elbow to the nose and then the strangulation for about a minute, then he moves onto taking off his white shirt and suffocating Stephany because she was still alive. I believe he even stated he didn't remember for how long he held the white shirt to her mouth.

IMO, he sat on her mediastinum with his body weight, in particular knee and lower leg with upper body weight bareing down on her small frame (prior to her ultimate death) as he held his white shirt over her mouth, hence causing the bruising to her chest and ultimate death.

The elbow to her nose forcing nasal cartiledge into her skull near her eye socket could possibly have forced her eye out of place.

This of course is all JMHO.

Yes, I see. What about the bruises to both of her feet? If on her soles, defensive injury? And if on the top of both feet, he may have stood on them (she was positioned up against wall) at some point for better control?

 

[steadychick]

Mental illness does not equal insanity. This a case where a kid suffers from mental illness schizophrenia, he kills his coach, he is found guilty of first degree murder even though he is mentally ill. He was not insane.

http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-504083_162-20002522-504083.html

With all due respect, I feel that this is not a good case to illustrate the definition of insanity. I am very familiar with this case, and have first hand experience dealing with a loved one with schizophrenia. Mark Becker was severely psychotic -- delusional and hallucinating. There is no way he understood what he was doing. The jury convicted him of first degree murder because they didn't feel there was a good alternative available under the law that would protect society. His conviction was an extreme miscarriage of justice. Sorry for the OT, but this is something that I feel very strongly about.

 

[Kat]

That's the problem, eventually one has to take a stance. Do your sympathies lie with the victim and their family or with the criminal (regardless of why they're like that) that you can't 'fix' anyway.

More and more you hear about 'normal' people killing their spouses, etc. Obviously many sickos are able to hide it pretty well until the day they blow.
Other people are mercilessly stalked and terrified and the law offers no protection until the day they are taken out prematurely from this world by the hand of another.

Hi Woe.be.gone just doing a swan dive off your post hope you don't mind

I have a viewpoint on this and it isn't always in agreement with professionals and/or other members here but I don't hesitate to share it because I do stand by this particular viewpoint .

I see mental illness and personality disorders as two distinct diagnosis and I find that if the perp is suffering from untreated or undertreated mental illness I have a bit of sympathy for them. Not much but a bit. (Andrea Yates as an example)

I have no sympathy at all for a perp that has (diagnosed) or blantantly appears to have a personality disorder. (Susan Smith, Melissa Huckaby etc...as other examples oh and Ted Bundy too).

I reserve all of my sympathy and compassion for the victims of crimes and their family members (if that family member did not commit the crime).

As for AVDS I haven't paid her much attention. Unless she is directly connected to any of the cases in which JVDS has been accused I'll probably not give her attention. Because I don't think IMHO we can look from afar at her parenting that has been reported by the media and come to a conclusion about her parenting or assign blame on her for the actions of her adult son. JMHO.

As for JVDS I don't know if he really was under treatment because the media report I read today said he himself stated that--again can't trust a word out of his mouth and as of right now I wouldn't put much weight in her words about it because she's his Mother.

He might be mentally ill but he certainly isn't legally insane. IMHO. He IMHO probably does have a disordered personality but that doesn't make him legally insane and I've never seen that used in a defense. KWIM?

All of the above are just my thoughts not supported by fact or links.