Who Could Get Kyron Out of School More Easily (Unseen)? Terri or another person?

[jadejazzkayla]

Not if she left by the side door by the soccer field. That is not an obvious exit for people parked in the normal spaces in the south lot, etc. She could easily slip out that door and along the path to the truck without being seen by anyone.

JMO

I'm sorry, along what path to the truck?

 

[Etilema]

No one saw her leaving alone either, so there must have been a way to leave without being seen.

Excellent point. Although we do not have all the information, so far there have been no reports about witnesses seeing either TH or Kyron leaving the building, that I am aware of. So somehow each of them got out of there without being seen, whether it was together or separately.

FWIW, I am certain that I have left the science fair and multiple other events at my children's school on numerous occasions without anyone particularly noticing--and I know every single family in the school (we are a small, close-knit community). I know for sure that if I had a specific reason to *want* to leave without anyone seeing me, it would have been quite possible, by exiting through a less-used door and going around the building a different way...

ETA: Once, in the middle of a normal school day, I arrived at the school and took one of my children from class to go to a doctor's appointment. When I arrived home, there was a frantic message on my answering machine from the school office saying they couldn't find my child (whom I had brought home with me). I had assumed that since I had to be buzzed in, had walked right by the front office (which has a window facing the front where I came in, as well as a window onto the lobby by the door I entered), in full view of the principal and secretary, and had walked right back out the same way, in front of everyone, that they SAW me leave. But none of the office people had seen us! And this was right in the middle of school!

JMO

 

[Etilema]

I'm sorry, along what path to the truck?

The path that runs around the soccer field is directly outside the north door. That path connects to the access road where the truck is supposed to have been parked (based on the photos set up by LE).

 

[jadejazzkayla]

The path that runs around the soccer field is directly outside the north door. That path connects to the access road where the truck is supposed to have been parked (based on the photos set up by LE).

oh, I see what you are thinking.

 

[BeanE]

BBM~
Thank you for saying that! I have been wondering what the heck I missed. There is even a thread about carrying a child's body out in a stroller, so I am pretty perplexed about where that info is coming from. It is still not entirely clear to me that Baby K was even in the school with Terri that morning (I could be wrong about this) let alone in a stroller. If it were me, and I was just going to be in the school for a short time, I don't think I would have bothered with a stroller, since the baby was 18 months and could certainly walk while holding Mom's hand...JMO, but if anyone has any info on this stroller business I would really appreciate it if you could post it. TIA. MOO, :twocents:

You can do an advanced search with the keyword stroller and there are pages of posts that come up with a stroller being discussed going way back, but the the discussion of a stroller that got my attention was earlier today, starting at about this post, in this thread:

[ame="http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showpost.php?p=5521314&postcount=168"]Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community - View Single Post - The 90 minutes Terri spent driving around--Do you believe it?[/ame]


HTH

 

[seeking truth]

I looked for the video of Kaine and the mom said that the baby was with Terri that morning but I couldn't find it. I'll keep looking. I guess it's possible kaine lied and the baby was actually not with terri.

I remember that interview. Desiree agreed when Kaine said the baby was Terri at the school that morning.

I highly doubt that Kaine was lying, with Desiree agreeing. Why? It could be that they are repeating what Terri said, that she had Baby K with her, but something tells me that, if Terri were the only one stating this then Kaine would have phrased it differently, such as saying "Terri claims to have had the baby with her at the science fair that morning."

There are probably witnesses to the fact that the baby was seen with Terri that morning. These witnesses are probably crucial to the case and the reason we don't know many details, I strongly believe, is because, what we are not privy to are the things that matter the most in bringing justice for Kyron.

My OPINIONS.

 

[eyes4crime]

Kaine talked with Kyron before leaving for work that am, about 7:45am.

Terri, baby girl, and Kyron arrived at school about 8:00am or so.

President of the PTA saw Kyron and Terri at the frog project. Terri has a picture of the event that she posted on her facebook around 1:18pm that day.

There are no reports of anyone seeing Kyron looking tired, exhausted, or drugged. So, I have to ask:

If Terri put Kyron in the stroller, covered him up, and took him out to her truck, how did she render him to an unconscious state so fast? What drug works that quick. Unless Terri had chloroform, I can't think of any drug, except an injection or an RX medication, that would put him in a fast, deep sleep. How would Terri know how long it would take to render Kyron unconscious? Even on the way to FM, what would work in 15 minutes? moo mho

 

[seeking truth]

Except it seems as though it's being verified.

What has been verified? Certainly not all of Terri's alibis that day are verified (unless they are verified as being false). So, not only the ones we're privy to, but what else have LE been told about her day that they have been in the process of sussing out?

I guess it is verified that part of of Terri's Travels that day include a trip or two to FM. (The fact that she had a receipt from at least one FM store COULD mean she was the one making the purchase of whatever, whenever). She was seen at one FM by a woman who is now a Grand Jury witness, and she apparently went to the gym with her sick baby.

That leaves hours unaccounted for. I have faith in LE that these unverified times are being filled in with the truth; not the ridiculous and weak explanations that Terri has tried to put forth.

My OPINIONS

 

[Jade2010]

Kaine talked with Kyron before leaving for work that am, about 7:45am.

Terri, baby girl, and Kyron arrived at school about 8:00am or so.

President of the PTA saw Kyron and Terri at the frog project. Terri has a picture of the event that she posted on her facebook around 1:18pm that day.

There are no reports of anyone seeing Kyron looking tired, exhausted, or drugged. So, I have to ask:

If Terri put Kyron in the stroller, covered him up, and took him out to her truck, how did she render him to an unconscious state so fast? What drug works that quick. Unless Terri had chloroform, I can't think of any drug, except an injection or an RX medication, that would put him in a fast, deep sleep. How would Terri know how long it would take to render Kyron unconscious? Even on the way to FM, what would work in 15 minutes? moo mho

Poison dart frog?

 

[seeking truth]

The question is - who could get kyron out of school more easily (unseen) terri (who had a baby with her) - or someone else.

If kyron left with Terri at 8:45 and was walking beside terri and baby - to the truck - they would have a greater change of being seen - in my opinion -

than a stranger perpetrator who saw an opportunity to grab a kid and get out without being seen.

Thanks for replying.

Respectfully, I completely disagree with what you are saying, but hey, that's what makes the world go round!

 

[jadejazzkayla]

Thanks for replying.

Respectfully, I completely disagree with what you are saying, but hey, that's what makes the world go round!

no problem. It's no big deal. you think it would be harder for a stanger perp to get kyron out -i think it would be harder for Terri and the baby -whoever took him got him out without being seen that's the unfortunate part.

 

[celticthyme]

SmoothOperator
[IMO this aspect has been ENTIRELY OVER DISSECTED, OVER ANALYZED, AND PICKED APART.

Let me say too that what WOULD STAND OUT, WHAT WOULD BE MEMORABLE WAS SOMEONE{a complete stranger}THAT IS WHO AND WOULD HAVE STOOD OUT AND BEEN NOTICED BY SOMEONE...

There is a good chance that no one DIRECTLY SAW THEM EXIT that door. no one would be drawn to looking at them because there would be absolutely NOTHING OUT OF THE ORDINARY, NOR UNUSUAL about us leaving , NOR WOULD THERE BE ABOUT THEM LEAVING.

snipped for emphasis
You've nailed it right here. I totally agree that the "ordinary-ness" of walking out of the school with or without Kyron is just not memorable. She would not need to sneak him out, and even if someone did see her leave.

Him leaving with a total stranger would be more attention getting, IMO,

 

[seeking truth]

no problem. It's no big deal. you think it would be harder for a stanger perp to get kyron out -i think it would be harder for Terri and the baby -whoever took him got him out without being seen that's the unfortunate part.

Very unfortunate. I wonder, though, if someone, or more than one person, DID see who had Kyron last, who did see Terri with Kyron in or near the truck, and who did see the person/car they're looking for (which I believe just has to be DeDe and her car).

I don't think this is just wishful thinking; I really believe that LE has a whole lot of information, that it is being presented to the Grand Jury, and this last flyer is to get as many more witnesses as possible, so that a very strong case can be presented, so that an indictment can be handed down against Terri Horman.

Yes, as you say, very unfortunate and so very sad...

My thoughts on this and my OPINIONS.

 

[jadejazzkayla]

SmoothOperator
[IMO this aspect has been ENTIRELY OVER DISSECTED, OVER ANALYZED, AND PICKED APART.

Let me say too that what WOULD STAND OUT, WHAT WOULD BE MEMORABLE WAS SOMEONE{a complete stranger}THAT IS WHO AND WOULD HAVE STOOD OUT AND BEEN NOTICED BY SOMEONE...

There is a good chance that no one DIRECTLY SAW THEM EXIT that door. no one would be drawn to looking at them because there would be absolutely NOTHING OUT OF THE ORDINARY, NOR UNUSUAL about us leaving , NOR WOULD THERE BE ABOUT THEM LEAVING.

snipped for emphasis
You've nailed it right here. I totally agree that the "ordinary-ness" of walking out of the school with or without Kyron is just not memorable. She would not need to sneak him out, and even if someone did see her leave.

Him leaving with a total stranger would be more attention getting, IMO,

first bbm.... i disagree. if i saw terri kyron and the baby walking out of the school that morning - and then i saw kyron's MISSING picture - i think i would remember if I saw him leaving the school

second bbm -it would only draw MORE attention if you knew the person with kyron didn't belong with kyron. for instance - you either know who kyron's parents are or you know kyron is not one of this person's kids cause you know all their kids. otherwise - it's a little kid walking with another person.

 

[jadejazzkayla]

Very unfortunate. I wonder, though, if someone, or more than one person, DID see who had Kyron last, who did see Terri with Kyron in or near the truck, and who did see the person/car they're looking for (which I believe just has to be DeDe and her car).

I don't think this is just wishful thinking; I really believe that LE has a whole lot of information, that it is being presented to the Grand Jury, and this last flyer is to get as many more witnesses as possible, so that a very strong case can be presented, so that an indictment can be handed down against Terri Horman.

Yes, as you say, very unfortunate and so very sad...

My thoughts on this and my OPINIONS.

bbm....that would be nice if LE had a witness who saw the person taking Kyron - but i don't think they do. my opinion of course.

 

[LadyL]

Terri took him out. JMO.

 

[cypress]

I think the easiness or difficulty is pretty evenly matched, IMHO.

For Terri, if she's guilty, she had the benefit of planning, she had the benefit of knowing the school's policies, vulnerabilities, and layout, and of course, she had the benefit of Kyron's trust. What makes it harder are many of the same things, IMHO. If she knew the school, the school and its workers knew her, and it is likely many other parents and students knew her from her time volunteering in Kyron's classroom. She is not someone who passes under the radar, in terms of her appearance. IMHO, she's not particularly striking, but her hair stands out. It's not just red, it's very, very long. The baby is very unusual looking and very cute. Anytime someone has a baby, people seem drawn to them. "Oh, look at the baby! Oh, she's so cute!" And on and on. The logistics of staging an abduction while dealing with a toddler are difficult to imagine. I think Kyron leaving with Terri out the front door would be noticeable; it would go against the grain, someone could easily ask why they were leaving, if he was sick, etc. In retrospect, no one saw her, but the risk for her was there even moreso than a stranger, IMHO.

As far as a stranger goes; if the stranger is not someone who came to the school on the invitation of someone participating in the Science Fair, then the stranger shouldn't have been at the school. There's the risk that someone could've asked this person what they were doing there. However, the Science Fair was advertised on the board outside the school, so the stranger would've known the school would be busy. He could have passed as a relative, especially if he kept a low profile. He benefits slightly here because no one is noticing him like they would have noticed Terri, "Kyron's mom," the baby, etc. The question remains, how did this person get Kyron out of the school unseen?

I'm pretty creative, and I honestly can't figure out how it was done. I know Turf Guy was busy, but if you're about to abduct and either murder or hide a child, you don't want to risk your entire plan because of a Turf Guy. I think he probably served as a deterrent for anyone absconding with Kyron on the access road, and then there's the chain that would've delayed a quick getaway. Turf Guy was pretty observant, seeing the children come out the back door, etc. The probability that a vehicle pulled around that side of the school, managed to get Kyron into the vehicle, and then drove on the access road totally unseen by Turf Guy at any point, has to be rather astronomical, IMHO. We're talking someone won the lotto with luck on that one, IMHO.

Was anyone toting around a large bin or duffel bag that day (ostensibly to transport a project)? Is it possible this was an accident committed by someone else, and realizing Kyron was obviously dead, they covered it up?

While we're considering possibilities...What if Kyron was killed at the school and removed later but before the searches? Were cadaver dogs used inside the school?

 

[SmoothOperator]

Just to address the issue of what was Kyron rendered unconscious with and put into stroller... I know speaking for myself[and by a few others posts I'm assuming they feel the same] that I do not believe there was any drugging, "chloroforming", "poisoning with dart frogs", etc. that have been listed in this thread, I don't believe ANYTHING of the sort whatsoever was done and then Kyron put into a stroller. I DO NOT BELIEVE THIS AT ALL. This was/is the topic of another thread and I know speaking for myself I was just participating with searching and seeing what possibilities there were for this to have happened.. I stated and reiterated in each of my posts[in the stroller thread]that I did not believe this was the manner in which Kyron was taken out of the school, rather only contributing data and info to BeanE's thread... It was nothing more than that, and have stated so several times... I just thought that needed clarifying because now in this thread it is being brought up and talked about as if we were stating as some sort of fact[or scenario}.. Not the case for me[and I think several others agree with this] so unless someone states that they infact believe that to be the way he was taken from the school, then I would not take the discussion from that thread as ppl believing it to be the case with Kyron..JMO..

As for the going round and round about those that think it would be easy and unnoticable for a stranger to snatch Kyron quickly and those that realize the simplicity of it all. That there is nothing to dissect any further, nor is it as complicated as some are making it.. IMO the ordinary-ness(thanks for the new wording celtic) of it all, of Terri and Kyron simply leaving the building just as easily, simply, and ordinary as I explained in the above is how it happened. Nothing more. Whether they left at same time or Terri said she'd pull truck around for Kyron to come out of a certain door[to ensure that they indeed did leave separately IMO thats as complicated as it gets]...JMO

So am perfectly fine to agree to disagree. But either way I do feel there is nothing more to dissect of this aspect. It will only continue to go in the circular direction that it has been thus far..JMO

 

[eyes4crime]

Oooops! I put my comment about getting Kyron out of school un-noticed in a stroller, unconscious or otherwise in the wrong thread. Sorry. The two threads are so similar and sometimes I forget what thread I'm in. I acknowledge my mistake. moo

 

[Donjeta]

I'm pretty creative, and I honestly can't figure out how it was done. I know Turf Guy was busy, but if you're about to abduct and either murder or hide a child, you don't want to risk your entire plan because of a Turf Guy. I think he probably served as a deterrent for anyone absconding with Kyron on the access road, and then there's the chain that would've delayed a quick getaway. Turf Guy was pretty observant, seeing the children come out the back door, etc. The probability that a vehicle pulled around that side of the school, managed to get Kyron into the vehicle, and then drove on the access road totally unseen by Turf Guy at any point, has to be rather astronomical, IMHO. We're talking someone won the lotto with luck on that one, IMHO.

Snip. Didn't the turf guy say he left at 8:30 and Kyron was apparently seen afterwards, at 8:45 or 9 or so. He wouldn't have seen anything that happened after he left. If I've understood it correctly the chain blocks the access to the round path around the soccer field but the access road is clear before that point.

I don't think that it would have been particularly hard for either Terri or another parent or a stranger to leave the school unseen if they think about the timing. No one saw Kyron leave so there must clearly have been a period of time when nobody was looking his way. Imo it's likely that after the final bell had rung there was a time when everybody was in their classrooms and focused on whatever their teacher was telling them to do next, and the parents who didn't stay to chaperone would have left. Anyone, Terri or a stranger could just as easily have opened a side door from the inside and left it slightly ajar (unless there are alarms?) and made sure they're seen leaving through another door, and come back. If nobody sees anything it doesn't matter which is more memorable, a mother or a stranger exiting with a child.

IMO the difference between Terri and a stranger is that Terri doesn't have to worry about being seen with or without Kyron during the fair, she can talk to him and give him whatever instructions she has to and it's all completely natural interaction between a parent and her child. If it's a stranger they need to worry more about having been seen talking to Kyron during the fair and if they don't have the excuse of having their own children at Skyline they would also have to worry about being observed at the fair at all, because it might stand out later if there is a random person who nobody seems to know pops up in some photographs or someone remembers him.

I think it would attract less attention to have a child walk out of the school on his own two feet than to see someone struggling with a cumbersome large bag that seems to squirm.