New "Dateline" - 2010.11.12 Kyron Horman case

[BeanE]

Posting for reference on the appointment:

Finster said Horman had told Kyron's teacher the day before that she was taking the boy to the doctor on Friday, June 11, and gave the teacher paperwork to fill out related to the appointment.

Finster said that when Kyron didn't show up at the bus the afternoon of June 4, Horman talked to the teacher who said she thought that Horman had taken Kyron to the doctor that day. Horman told Finster that the child's teacher was new, in her first year of teaching, and was hard of hearing in one ear. "She doesn't know if she understood her," Finster said.

http://www.oregonlive.com/portland/index.ssf/2010/06/friend_says_terry_moulton_horm.html

 

[debs]

Well yeah, is she going to sit there and tell Desiree she wasn't providing Kyron with what he needed? Now that would be stupid. Of course Terri is going to tell Desiree that Terri gave Kyron what he needed. She spent the most time with him. Desiree is probably desperate to believe that Terri did give Kyron what he needed. If not, then what was she doing to him in all that time she was supposed to be taking care of him? Besides, her narcisstic need to be supermom would have her putting up photos and showing off as much as possible what a great mom she was. How was Desiree supposed to know any different if all she was seeing was supermom Terri all the time?

But Desiree hasn't, since then. Since then, Desiree has said nothing at all similar to that. And I thought the point was that she didn't make the Dr appointment, that she was only lying about making it. How would making a fake appointment be feeding her narcissism, especially if then she disappears the child who was supposed to not go to this fake appointment? And how does one feed a narcissistic appetite by not telling the people it would best be fed by, that there is a fake appointment to diagnose Kyron's fake seizures?

 

[BeanE]

Here are the emails. I'm sure that in the Dateline show it was stated not by Kaine or Desiree, but rather the correspondent, that neither Kaine or Desiree knew of these events as described by Terri in her email.

http://www.katu.com/news/local/100323934.html

In my personal notes I took on the show, I wrote that there was a voiceover by the reporter, paraphrased:

Nobody in the family knew about seizures or a doctor's appointment.

 

[debs]

Remember that this Dr. explanation was in an email to a friend of hers. This email was a lament that people were "blaming her." This was her explanation to her friend of why they shouldn't. She never expected anyone else to hear it. (imo) So she felt confident in "trying out" that explanation on her friend.

If you got all the people together she's ever talked to about anything bad she's ever done or been suspected of doing, I suspect you'd find lots of different and varying explanations, all of them from Terri.

We know that the teacher states she thought Terri took Kyron with K to a dr's appointment, relieving the teacher of all responsibility for Kyron not being at school. So apparently Terri whipped it out then, too. So now Terri went so far as to create the fake Dr appointment, contact Kyron's teacher about fake paperwork, and explain to her about a fake appointment for a week from that Friday, and the teacher remembers all this fakery to explain why Kyron isn't in school with her like he should have been?

 

[cluciano63]

If Terri was talking about how bad her marriage was, I don't think she was expecting rave reviews from Kaine about her mothering skills if something suddenly "happened". Therefore I still don't get the doctor's appointment being a lie...it was probably disproved by Monday June 7th, if not sooner, if it was a lie. And to me, that makes her seem crazy, if she made it up, not supersmart.

 

[debs]

So did Casey and Cindy provide little Caylee with love, care, and concern. At least on the surface. I don't think anyone will argue that those two show signs of narcissism.

Back OT, are we believing little CL when he says that the SF projects were brought in and set up on June 4(the he saw Terri and Kyron come in with the project that morning). The original report was that the SF projects were set up the evening of the 3rd (when Terri provided Mrs. Porter with the "appointment paperwork"). That Terri needed the truck on the 3rd also to take Kyron's project to school and on the 4th to bring it back.

Little CL may have his days mixed together(highly likely as I think little T does), but I found that very odd that this is the first we heard of SF projects not coming to the school until 6/4. I hope that Dateline or someone will clarify this as it was the reporter stating what little CL had said and not an actual clip with him saying it.

JMO

I believe both can be true. Some parents and kids brought the display on Thursday afternoon, some brought them Friday morning. It might not be possible for all parents to zip over to the school after work but they can slide it in before they go to work in the morning.

 

[debs]

Exactly. Not every narcisstic person is successful at manipulating and charming people. Just look at Casey Anthony and her mother Cindy Anthony. Narcissism at it's finest, and they just won't quit thinking that whatever they say is not going to be believed. Part of narcissism is believing, with the utmost stubbornness, that everyone is wrong when the narcissist is the only one right. Why should Terri tell Kaine and Desiree about the appointment? That would take away from the shock and awe factor. No, let them find out about this appointment and praise her for making it - that is what she was counting on, them believing she made the appointment and that she was saving Kyron's life. She didn't count on them totally disbelieving her, and then from there, the lie being proven. She counted on them believing the very words coming out of her mouth.

That's a narcissist for you. They don't expect anyone to go beyond their words and prove them wrong. And even then, narcissists still persist in believing their own words, no matter how much it's proven those words are lies. It's why people like Casey Anthony are where they are. She'll never admit what she did to Caylee. She'll always to want to blame it on someone else because her narcissism impedes her ability to believe ANYTHING beyond her own words. If Terri is anything like her, and I believe she is, she won't ever admit to what she did because she can't believe that her words are lies. Everyone believed them before. Everyone thought she was a good mother before. Why would her words be lies even now? She'd rather destroy everything around her instead of admit that she's wrong and did something wrong. That's just not being a perfect supermom. She can't not be that in her own mind. So the lie has to stand, has to work, has to be truth.

Narcissists can't fathom that their lies don't work. This is why they doggedly persist, even in the face of a mountain of evidence that proves them wrong, to continue with the lies. They keep believing that lies are going to prove everyone else wrong. Casey is still waiting for something that is never going to happen, but that hope is always there for her because she's a narcissist. The same came be said for Terri. If she doesn't say anything, if she never admits that she's wrong and did something wrong to Kyron, then it can never be true in her mind.

She believed the lie about the appointment would work. After all, her lies worked before and look how people thought she was a great mom when in reality, she wasn't. I bet she still can't fathom why that lie about the appointment didn't work like a charm like all her other lies did. For a narcissist, a lie not working just doesn't add up, just doesn't make sense to them.

It may look stupid or crazy to us, but to her, a true narcissist, it made perfect sense because the lie is the truth to them.

ETA: Desiree tolerating her, Kaine not pressing her on issues - she already THOUGHT she had captured her audience. That was her mistake. That is why she thought her lies would easily work.

I guess I'm still not quite understanding how Terri can feed her narcissism by keeping a fake Dr appt a secret from the people it would best serve her narcissistic needs to get their approval for her fake parenting skills, until the time comes when she's disappeared their child and they couldn't give a rat's *advertiser censored* about their son's fake seizures or fake dr appointment because they want to know where their real son is. Then she goes and tells the teacher about this fake appointment for fake seizures, thoroughly confusing this experienced teacher so that she's complacent in Terri's chicanery to assume that Terri just took Kyron with her, and while she's miffed at that, doesn't raise any alarms because a child who WAS there is no longer there, so obviously this woman with the fake Dr for fake seizures wandered off with him as though she thought she could just do that without checking him out of the school. Except I believe the theory is that she avoided checking him out of school because school hadn't technically started.

So now, what I think I'm starting to understand is that Terri faked the call to the Dr, faked making an appointment for fake seizures, told at least the teacher about them in order to get Kyron out of the school with no one seeing her do so (I think we can all agree that if someone saw her leave the school with Kyron, she'd be in the pokey til she talked), and then didn't raise any alarms because she'd either harmed him in front of K and made it to FM, then FM, and then disposed of his body somewhere, and then rushed to the gym to work out the tension of all this, looking wrecked and tired as she always does (per Gwen on Dateline), taking K home where she plays with her toys and doesn't raise a ruckus or fuss about anything when Daddy comes home 20 minutes later and everything is seemingly normal (per Kaine) until they get their shoes on to walk down to the bus where, as Kaine puts it, panic set in.

Then Terri whips out this whole Dr appointment story to show how she's a good mother because she was going to surprise Desiree and Kaine with getting their son "cured" from fake seizures.

Y'all are absolutely right in thinking anyone would be crazy to think they could pull all THAT off!!!

 

[citigirl]

I guess I'm still not quite understanding how Terri can feed her narcissism by keeping a fake Dr appt a secret from the people it would best serve her narcissistic needs to get their approval for her fake parenting skills, until the time comes when she's disappeared their child and they couldn't give a rat's *advertiser censored* about their son's fake seizures or fake dr appointment because they want to know where their real son is. Then she goes and tells the teacher about this fake appointment for fake seizures, thoroughly confusing this experienced teacher so that she's complacent in Terri's chicanery to assume that Terri just took Kyron with her, and while she's miffed at that, doesn't raise any alarms because a child who WAS there is no longer there, so obviously this woman with the fake Dr for fake seizures wandered off with him as though she thought she could just do that without checking him out of the school. Except I believe the theory is that she avoided checking him out of school because school hadn't technically started.

So now, what I think I'm starting to understand is that Terri faked the call to the Dr, faked making an appointment for fake seizures, told at least the teacher about them in order to get Kyron out of the school with no one seeing her do so (I think we can all agree that if someone saw her leave the school with Kyron, she'd be in the pokey til she talked), and then didn't raise any alarms because she'd either harmed him in front of K and made it to FM, then FM, and then disposed of his body somewhere, and then rushed to the gym to work out the tension of all this, looking wrecked and tired as she always does (per Gwen on Dateline), taking K home where she plays with her toys and doesn't raise a ruckus or fuss about anything when Daddy comes home 20 minutes later and everything is seemingly normal (per Kaine) until they get their shoes on to walk down to the bus where, as Kaine puts it, panic set in.

Then Terri whips out this whole Dr appointment story to show how she's a good mother because she was going to surprise Desiree and Kaine with getting their son "cured" from fake seizures.

Y'all are absolutely right in thinking anyone would be crazy to think they could pull all THAT off!!!

I thought she didn't work out at the gym...just took a shower....but this is an interesting theory you've come up with...

 

[Trt]

I believe both can be true. Some parents and kids brought the display on Thursday afternoon, some brought them Friday morning. It might not be possible for all parents to zip over to the school after work but they can slide it in before they go to work in the morning.

The question is about CL seeing Kyron and Terri bringing Kyron's project into the school on June 4. It was originally reported that his was already there on the 3rd. I'm sure some parents did bring their children's projects to school on both days.

Jmo

 

[cluciano63]

Too bad Kate Snow did not ask the child where he saw Terri and Kyron first that day-he may have seen them in the classroom, by Kyron's project, and called it "setting up the project" or "bringing the project in."

I'm not convinced it really matters when it was brought in, since LE seems confident that they were both there on June 4th.

 

[Trt]

Imo, the doctor's appt was not to show good mothering skills, but a poor attempt at establishing an alibi and creating confusion surrounding June 4. I do believe Terri probably made Kyron an appt. I think Dateline mentions his parents knowing nothing about it as being highly suspect regarding Terri's reasons for scheduling this possible appt

 

[Trt]

Too bad Kate Snow did not ask the child where he saw Terri and Kyron first that day-he may have seen them in the classroom, by Kyron's project, and called it "setting up the project" or "bringing the project in."

I'm not convinced it really matters when it was brought in, since LE seems confident that they were both there on June 4th.

the point is not to establish whether or not Kyron and Terri were there on the 4th(LE has already established this by saying he was last seen at the school at 8:45 that morning), but to discuss the original report vs. The new tidbit by little CL. I think it's entirely possible that he got his days mixed up.

Just thought it was interesting considering the assertion that Terri needed the truck on the 3rd in order to bring the project to school.

Jmo

 

[BeanE]

the point is not to establish whether or not Kyron and Terri were there on the 4th(LE has already established this by saying he was last seen at the school at 8:45 that morning), but to discuss the original report vs. The new tidbit by little CL. I think it's entirely possible that he got his days mixed up.

Just thought it was interesting considering the assertion that Terri needed the truck on the 3rd in order to bring the project to school.

Jmo

Oh gosh. Another Skyline child who mixed up Friday morning and Thursday afternoon? What are the chances?

(I was just reading on another thread speculation regarding TP confusing Friday morning for Thursday afternoon. )

 

[debs]

Imo, the doctor's appt was not to show good mothering skills, but a poor attempt at establishing an alibi and creating confusion surrounding June 4. I do believe Terri probably made Kyron an appt. I think Dateline mentions his parents knowing nothing about it as being highly suspect regarding Terri's reasons for scheduling this possible appt

Why would Terri bother making an appointment for real if her goal was to disappear Kyron? It doesn't really serve her purpose to have that appointment dangling out there like a carrot for the parents who will only learn of it after their child disappears. We know from Desiree that she suspected Terri right away. We know from Kaine that life was normal in the house that afternoon before they went to the bus. We have NO stories of that normal household including Terri starting on her buzz already since surely Kaine would have stated that by now, given his determination to make sure everyone knows what happened in their house with the drinking.

So you believe Terri really did make this appointment, but only to use it to confuse the teacher at the school to get Kyron out of there, which she managed to do without ever being seen, and even though TP states he saw Kyron going to look around at projects after Terri supposedly left.

Then we have the teacher who is purported to have said "Don't worry, he's probably just in the bathroom." instead of saying "Don't worry, his mom took off with him to a Dr appointment."

Then we have Terri stating for the police as relayed in her email, that she's surprised the teacher thought she was going to a Dr appointment since SHE told the teacher she was going to look at exhibits. So now Terri is lying again to her friend and LE when she says she DIDN'T tell the teacher about the appointment. This teacher who used the bathroom explanation to calm the fears of the chaperone who states that she started with 6 kids and now only had 5.

So the parents, who knew nothing of the seizures, let alone the Dr appointment, are supposed to somehow be wowed with the diligence Terri exhibits by making an appointment she wasn't ever gonna let Kyron make, all to suit her narcissistic need to show these parents what a good parent she is?

The mind simply boggles with the diabolical nature of this plot!

 

[Trt]

Oh gosh. Another Skyline child who mixed up Friday morning and Thursday afternoon? What are the chances?

(I was just reading on another thread speculation regarding TP confusing Friday morning for Thursday afternoon. )

Please see my post...I'm trying to discuss whether or not Terri brought the project to school on June 3rd as was reported by Kyron's father, or if it really was brought there on the 4th. Perhaps Kaine was confused by what Terri told him and she really did need the truck on June 4 to bring the project.(and not take it home as Kaine reported).

But that opens up another question...did Terri really have the truck on the 3rd and if so, why did she need it.

It's an interesting tidbit, IMO...but perhaps I'm the only one.

Jmo

 

[cluciano63]

I have to agree, Debs...it is the most convoluted sort of alibi I've ever heard. Maybe the biggest surprise in this whole case will be that none of this stuff (appointment, science project, etc.) means much of anything at all.

Assuming we ever know what really happened that day.

 

[Trt]

My question would be why *wouldn't* she make an appointmentif it were a part of an alibi? It would be really silly to create confusion surrounding an appointment and then have it be disproven with one call to the doctor that she had no real intention of ever taking him to an appointment? I don't think she thought of everything, but some things are pretty obvious, IMO.

 

[Trt]

I have to agree, Debs...it is the most convoluted sort of alibi I've ever heard. Maybe the biggest surprise in this whole case will be that none of this stuff (appointment, science project, etc.) means much of anything at all.

Assuming we ever know what really happened that day.

Except Terri is the one that brings up the appt. and makes it mean something.

 

[BeanE]

Please see my post...I'm trying to discuss whether or not Terri brought the project to school on June 3rd as was reported by Kyron's father, or if it really was brought there on the 4th. Perhaps Kaine was confused by what Terri told him and she really did need the truck on June 4 to bring the project.(and not take it home as Kaine reported).

But that opens up another question...did Terri really have the truck on the 3rd and if so, why did she need it.

It's an interesting tidbit, IMO...but perhaps I'm the only one.

Jmo

It is interesting, Trt. In fact, when I saw your post, I dug up the audio to listen to the part on the truck on Thursday, and transcribe the whole thing.

I'll post it in a bit. Need coffee to transcribe.

 

[debs]

I was working with the theory offered here that Terri lied about making an appointment.

If she made an appointment out of a narcissistic need to get the parenting recognition, then it doesn't make one lick of sense to keep that information from Desiree and Kaine. In fact, it would provide her with at least two weeks of narcissistic feed to keep bringing it up as often as possible to prove she's the parent who saw something was wrong with Kyron and by gosh and golly she's gonna get him in to the doctor as soon as she can to make sure he's taken care of the way only she can do.

Keeping it a secret on the Thursday she says she made the appointment and only mentioning it after Kyron disappeared doesn't give her any time at all to get her narcissist on. She defies her plan completely by taking the air out of her own tires by disappearing Kyron. The story doesn't add up at the school because when the chaperone stated she was short one child, the excuse given wasn't that he was at the Dr, don't worry.....it was that he was probably in the bathroom, don't worry.

I heard it again on Dateline. The confusion about this Dr appointment is the parent's confusion.......they didn't know about it, they say. I simply can't understand how a narcissist would be able to keep it a secret when she's got something as hot to feed her narcissism as being the one who discovered something may be wrong with Kyron.