Dog gone.

Nova, would you please go through, step by step, how to do a multi-quote so I may respond to you?

I find it very frustrating to not be able to do this.
jt
 
Nova, would you please go through, step by step, how to do a multi-quote so I may respond to you?

I find it very frustrating to not be able to do this.
jt
there is a little button with quotation marks on the bottom right
every post that you want to appear as a quote in your post, you click that button on those posts. it will turn red and will then show up in your next post.
if you want to break a post down a single post and quote and respond in sections, just begin and end each segment with

copy what you are quoting here [/ quote]

but do not put the space between the [/q

the above quote would look like this if I remove that space.

copy what you are quoting here
 
Jellybean,

I guess I am just stupid. I thought I followed your directions, but I'm still doing something wrong. Arghhh. I clicked on the " icon, quoted the individual sections from Nova's post, then added my response after each one, but when I went to preview it, it all came up as being part of Nova's prior post, except for my last response to the last section of his post I was trying to quote. My last response was the only response that appeared as my own.
 
I know how logic works, but here you neglect to say WHY you find the out-of-control stepparent implausible. Such crimes by parents are thousands of times more common than Satanic killings.

Only implausible if it requires that the stepparent initially goes searching for his stepson with a gun as I see that as highly unlikely.

Since you mention it, yes, it is possible that TH got so pissed he premeditated murdering his stepchild. (He certainly thought it was something the child's mother should "just get over", so no big deal.)
Possible, but not likely I think.

Actually, if you look back at your post, the way you put it was that as long as the victim was living, all wounds were "torture." (Which is why I gave the contrary example of a fall.) But perhaps I read your remarks out of context.

Fair enough.

Some, including some experts, believe what you are calling "repetitive injuries" are in fact "road rash" and the result of being dragged, pushed or pulled over pavement.

Are you referring here to the marks that Dr. Spitz called animal predation or some other? I'm referring only to the marks that look like claw marks.

But if indeed there was torture (i.e., injuries inflicted over time just for the purpose of causing pain), then I wonder why nobody heard the boys screaming. For screaming they would have been, unless they were unconscious. And what self-respecting sadist tortures an unconscious victim? Rather defeats the purpose, don't you think?

I agree with your self-respecting sadist statement. I just don't think the boys screamed long. I'm also not sure they'd be heard over the freeway noise. Anyway, I think the marks I'm speaking of are indeed animal predation, and not inflicted by a knife.
 
I just wanted to say this until Terry Hobbs is tried and convicted ( if he ever is) HE is innocent until proven guilty.
 
Then why did they call Dale Griffiths? What did he add to the prosecution's case? He was supposedly an "occult" expert.
 
The prosecution never presented this case as a satanic ritual, CR.

The media did.

I'm sorry, with all due respect and politeness, that is patently incorrect.

If one begins with a cursory look at sources linked at Wikipedia, the Satanic ritual theory that was presented by the prosecution, even through appeals, is sourced.

If you google "prosecution satanic west memphis three" there are countless source articles for this.

If one looks at the court transcripts, the alleged "occult expert" brought on by the prosecution, video of said expert in the trials...it's pretty obvious.

Can you please source or prove your this claim?

Here is just one of literally hundreds for my claim to the contrary:
http://www.arkansasonline.com/news/2009/oct/02/appeals-continue-slayings-ark-boys-93/

Prosecutors claimed the killers sexually mutilated the boy in a satanic ritual.

From the transcripts:

http://callahan.8k.com/wm3/ebtrial/dgriffis.html

PRICE: Alright, Dr. Griffis, in the factors that you had testified to earlier, one of the factors you were asked if the date May the 5th meant something as far as, what, the satanic calendar, I think, something to that effect?

PRICE: All right, are you saying that this murder was held at a occult service? In your opinion?

GRIFFIS: Yes.


This line of leading questioning, about the occult significance of the killings, goes on for quite a while as one reads.
 
The green vegetable matter in his lumen needs to be explained. TH claims that he never saw the boys at all on May 5th. If Stevie had decided to run away, he might have tried to grab a quick bite before sequestering himself. Pam has stated, I believe in the Pasdar deposition, that Stevie liked green beans. IIRC, none of the other boys had anything substantial in their systems. I think one (Chris?) may have had a piece of gum. A slight correction, I don't think he went back home to eat. I think he went back home because he soiled his pants (another thing that Pam's relatives testified to in their Pasdar depositions that enraged TH). He got there; his plate was waiting; he ate some green beans. As to my theory about Stevie running away, that is kinda an explanation for his repeated statements of love to his mother before he supposedly went to play with Michael and Chris. I know that some things could be irrelevant; however, if I have a possible explanation for something (like the green vegetable matter), I like to throw it out there. I know that my theory might not be perfect, but as I said, to me it makes much more sense than three teens in a devil-worshiping cult happening upon three little boys and killing them in some perverse manner. If most of the "gory" wounds on the boys were cause by animal predation, as new experts claim, then that kinda blows the whole Satanic cult thing out of the water IMO. BTW, let me take this opportunity to tell you that I enjoy your posts, too. Please join us on the blackboard (when it gets fixed:dunno:) for case discussions. You will find many well-informed people there who know a lot more than I do!

Thanks and will do. I do read over there, I just never got around to joining and posting.

The plan to run away may have been in place, but the repeated "I love yous" may also just be the product of a grieving mother's mind. (I'm NOT accusing her of lying.)
 
I just wanted to say this until Terry Hobbs is tried and convicted ( if he ever is) HE is innocent until proven guilty.

Good reminder.

I'll add that I don't see the probable cause to try him, much less "proof beyond a reasonable doubt" that he did it.

But there's still more evidence against TH than there is against the WM3.
 
Personally, I believe that TH committed this crime. As Nova said (and I agree with him), there is more evidence against him than against the three in prison. I'm thinking that even more evidence against him will be presented at the evidentiary hearing because it will be easier to grant a new trial (or outright exonerate the three) if another viable suspect is put forward. Just my opinion, however, and I understand the concept of innocent until proven guilty. Too bad the city of West Memphis and the WMPD don't, or at least didn't in 1994.
 
I'm sorry, with all due respect and politeness, that is patently incorrect.

Can you please source or prove your this claim?

The following was posted by another member. I'm sure he won't mind if I repost it:

Was this a Satanic ritual killing?

Nope.

But then it wasn't presented as one either - nor were the defendants said to be Satanists.

Fogleman was very clear in his closing argument why Echols "satanic" evidence was presented:

This satanic stuff--satanic picture in and of itself does that mean they're Satanists or anything like that? No. This mean in and of itself, Satanist? No. But, why present it? Why present this stuff? And by the way this doesn't have anything to do with Wicca, doesn't have anything to do with it. The reason to present it, is that to try to inflame you all and make you all so angry because it's something different--because it's something different and something we don't understand? Is that why we would present it? No, not at all.
When you looked at those pictures of what was done to those three little boys, could you understand it? Could you have any reason to understand why someone would do that to three eight-year-old boys? Well, you've got three eight-year-old boys done that way, and then you got the defendants looking like choirboys during the trial--during jury selection. In fact, think back to jury selection when the defense trying to say, well, as they sit here right now what do you think about them? And either you or your fellow juror--you heard a fellow juror say, I think they look like typical kids. Well, think how hard it would be for you to conceive of typical teens doing what was done to these three eight-year-old boys. And I think you'll understand why the need to put on this evidence.

It was character evidence, and nothing more.

Griffis was presented simply to show Echols was a "Self styled dabbler" in Satanism, and that's what he testified to.

In a report from the FBI done prior to these crimes during the "satanic panic" of the 80's, Kenneth Lanning set out to find cases of "satanic ritual killings".

http://www.skepticfiles.org/mys3/lanning.htm

He scoured the largest criminal database on the planet and he never found one.

What he did find were several distinct categories of "Satanists" - some of which committed "satanic" crimes, or crimes with trappings of occultism.

1. Youth Subculture - Most teenagers involved in fantasy
role-playing games, heavy metal music, or satanism are going
through a stage of adolescent development and commit no
significant crimes. The teenagers who have more serious
problems are usually those from dysfunctional families or
those who have poor communication within their families. These
troubled teenagers turn to satanism and the occult to overcome
a sense of alienation, to obtain power, or to justify their
antisocial behavior. For these teenagers, it is the symbolism,
not the spirituality, that is important. It is either the
psychopathic or the oddball, loner teenager who is most likely
to get into serious trouble. Extreme involvement in the occult
is a symptom of a problem, not the cause. This is not to deny,
however, that satanism and the occult are negative influences
for a troubled teenager. But to hysterically warn teenagers to
avoid this "mysterious, powerful and dangerous" thing called
satanism will drive many teenagers right to it. Some
rebellious teenagers will do whatever will most shock and
outrage society in order to flaunt their rejection of adult
norms.

2. Dabblers (Self-styled) - for these practitioners, there is
little or no spiritual motivation. They mix satanism,
witchcraft and paganism. Symbols mean whatever they want them
to mean. Molesters, rapists, drug dealers and murderers may
dabble in the occult and may commit their crimes in a
ceremonial or ritualistic way. This category has the potential
to be the most dangerous, and most of the "satanic" killers
fall into this category. Their involvement in satanism and the
occult is a symptom of a problem and a rationalization and
justification of antisocial behavior. Satanic/occult practices
(as well as those of other spiritual belief systems) can be
used as a mechanism to facilitate criminal objectives.

3. Traditional (Orthodox, Multigenerational) - These are the
true believers. They are usually wary of outsiders. Because of
this and constitutional issues, such groups are difficult for
law enforcement to penetrate. Although there is much we don't
know about these groups, as of now there is little or no hard
evidence that they are involved in serious, organized criminal
activity. In addition, instead of being self-perpetuating
master crime conspirators, true believers probably have a
similar problem with their teenagers rebelling against their
belief system.

Now, Lanning claims "The teenagers who have more serious problems are usually those from dysfunctional families or those who have poor communication within their families. These troubled teenagers turn to satanism and the occult to overcome a sense of alienation, to obtain power, or to justify their antisocial behavior."

Over and over again Echol's mental health history speaks of his dysfunctional family, his issues of control, obtaining power over others, and his total lack of compassion for anyone but himself - from his first committal in 92, to his out-patient therapy just weeks before the crime. He wasn't just a misunderstood "Wiccan" with "teen angst", he was a violent psychotic drug abusing sociopath who dabbled in the occult.

Lanning goes on to say "It is either the psychopathic or the oddball, loner teenager who is most likely to get into serious trouble."

Echol's mental health history leaves nothing to the imagination there.

But further, Lanning noted "Dabblers (Self-styled) - for these practitioners, there is little or no spiritual motivation. They mix satanism, witchcraft and paganism. Symbols mean whatever they want them to mean.
This category has the potential to be the most dangerous, and most of the "satanic" killers fall into this category."

This catagory was discussed at trial as well.

Q: Now, do you have something called a self-styled satanist?
A: Yes, those are -- that boils down, counselor, with the different types of groups.
Q: Okay.
A: Which would start out with an experimenter, usually one who practices alone in an unorganized manner, a self-styled occultist and we are talking here only in the field of satanism. And this person has some kind of problems in life and they use the trappings of occultism to get along. Then we have an occult cult group, and this has a little charismatic leader and some followers. Sometimes they got a name for their group, sometimes they don't have a name for their group. But they use -- all three of those use the trappings of occultism.

See, the Prosecution couldn't present Echol's psych history unless the Defense entered it, so they couldn't show the jury his history of violence and drug abuse, his psychotic disorder, his dysfunctional family, or his issues of controlling and demeaning others, but they COULD show the jury that Echols was a "self styled" dabbler in Satanism - and they did, through Griffis with Echol's own writings.

Q: I wanna show you State's Exhibit 110 and ask if you – if you'll look at that and also -- have you seen that before?
A: Yes sir, I have.
Q: If you'll look through that again.
A: Yes sir.
Q: Alright, and what does that appear to you to be?
A: What I would refer to as a partial book of shadows.
Q: Book of shadows --
A: A partial.
Q: -- partial.
A: Partial.
Q: Alright. Now, the items drawn on the front, what is that?
A: That is a pentagram, that happens to be a Wiccan, or white witchcraft pentagram.
Q: Alright. Now if you would open the book to the front page.
A: Yes sir.
Q: Alright. Now, explain what that is.
A: That's confusion to me.
Q: Alright.
A: And the reason why we've got a white witchcraft pentagram, then we have upside down crosses which comes from another type of occultism.
Q: What type of occultism do the upside down cross come from?
A: That's black witchcraft.
Q: Black witchcraft?
A: Yeah, and that is at the stations.
Q: That's what?
A: That's at what we call the points, the five points.
Q: Alright, what significance does that -- that it's at the five points?
A: Usually in traditional occultism -- excuse me -- satanism they'll have various activities take place or --
Q: Okay. Now --
A: -- figures --
Q: In white witchcraft or wiccan do you have upside down crosses?
A: No sir.

Just as the category Lanning had described years earlier, To Echols, symbols meant whatever he wanted them to mean, and he mixed Satanism Witchcraft, and Paganism into what he called "Demonology".

Like it or not, that's relevant.

And the fact is, the only "satanist" category Echols DIDN'T fall into was the traditional or "true believer" Satanist.

The real ones.

The ones for which no evidence of serious criminal activity exists.

He was the very definition of the type "satanist" who has traditionally committed violent crime - the psychotic, drug addled self-styled teen dabbler from a dysfunctional family who had issues of obtaining power over others.

Lanning isn't simply speculating on a "psychological mindset" like some sort of profiler, he developed these distinct categories through researching documented historical examples.

This wasn't real "satanic panic" - the people of West Memphis weren't afraid of cloak wearing, latin speaking figures lurking in the shadows snatching babies, they were afraid of a group of stoner anti-social teens who sat around campfires tripping, killing animals, and playing "devil worshiper".

And they had a right to be afraid, because that silly crap was going on at the time.

Witness after witness reported going to these little get togethers, and police found the remnants.

http://callahan.8k.com/wm3/jdreport.html

Now, whether you are willing to accept it or not, those are the type folks who are most likely to commit just such a sick and senseless crime, and the fact that Echols was one of them is relevant.

Like Rod Ferrell, Richard Ramirez, Ricky Kasso, and a host of others.

Echols and his gas-huffing, anti-social, heavy metal "devil worshiper" pals did this crime - make no mistake about it.

They were out there in those woods stoned and drunk when the kids came by, they started bullying and humiliating them and in a frenzy, the brutality escalated into savage murder - just as Misskelley described, and just as the evidence clearly shows.

The simple fact is, There was no motive.

They did it just to see what it was like, and they bragged about it to anyone who would listen.
 
We can debate this back and forth until the cows come home, but the fact is that there is no evidence linking any of the WM3 to this crime. If the teens were drunk, as the post suggests, they would not/could not leave the discovery site as clean as this site was left. The teens all had alibis. Family notwithstanding, there were people who stated that the teens were elsewhere when the crimes were committed. Again, if this is a crime without a motive, as the post suggests, that would be even more reason for there to be some sort of evidence left. It would have been a spur-of-the-moment thing. Maybe there are self-styled satanists that have committed crimes, even murder. However, no citations to such were given in that post. Even if the post were filled with citations, that doesn't prove that Damien committed this crime. There must be some sort of evidence, other than a "dabbling in the occult," or even a troubled psychiatric background, to link these teens to the crime. There is no credible evidence that does that. Try as the prosecution might, they couldn't find it. For Fogleman to say that he wasn't implying that the killings were Satanist killings or occult-inspired is just like when someone tells you, "Now, don't think about the Statue of Liberty." When someone says that, you immediately think about the Statue of Liberty. What Fogleman did in his closing statement was just the opposite of what he said, he drove home the idea that the killings were occult-inspired or Satanic ritual. That's an old lawyer's trick. It's a tap dance.
 
In fact, as I'm sure CR knows, the FBI looked high and low all over the country for "satanic cult" killings and couldn't find any. No doubt there have been individual murderers who dabbled in some sort of self-invented "Satanism", but the group murders simply didn't happen.

By and large and despite outbursts of hysteria, "Satanism" is a figment of the imagination of Christians.

As for Mary456's claim that the Satanism testimony was presented merely as character evidence, nothing could be more absurd. Either the prosecutor knew damn well he was inflaming the fears of the jurors, or else his IQ is even lower than Jessie Misskelley's.
 
In fact, as I'm sure CR knows, the FBI looked high and low all over the country for "satanic cult" killings and couldn't find any. No doubt there have been individual murderers who dabbled in some sort of self-invented "Satanism", but the group murders simply didn't happen.

By and large and despite outbursts of hysteria, "Satanism" is a figment of the imagination of Christians.

As for Mary456's claim that the Satanism testimony was presented merely as character evidence, nothing could be more absurd. Either the prosecutor knew damn well he was inflaming the fears of the jurors, or else his IQ is even lower than Jessie Misskelley's.

Thanks for the reminder! I'd really forgotten that, but it happened. Nothing that pointed to the occult could be found, and no precedent-setting cases were ever produced. That's why the prosecution resorted to the mail-order doctor to try to prove their case.
 
The teens all had alibis.

You mean like this?

Q. When the police talk with you on the tenth, at that point in time you tell them from 3:00 to 5:00 is when you think you were at the Sanders', is that right?

A. I probably told him that then.

Q. That was about five days after the boys had turned up missing that you told him it was around 3:00 to 5:00?

A. I probably told him that if it's in the report.

Q. When your mom tells him something, it is about five to six or five to six-thirty, okay?

A. (NODS HEAD)

Q. As time moves on and the time period that is in question becomes later that evening, the visit to the Sanders' becomes later that evening, correct?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. So the story kind of changes to fit the facts we need to cover, right?

A. Yes, sir.
 
Mary,

Damien might have been a bit unclear as to time frames, but he knew basically where he was. When there's nothing particular to make a day stand out, it's sometimes difficult to remember exactly what you did and when you did it. That explains his confusion over time frame. If a day in a person's life is eventful in some way, like 9/11 was here in the States, or like the day a family member goes missing or something like that, then that person will remember in vivid detail all of the events of the day. If the day is just another day, it's much more difficult to remember vivid, exacting details. Damien went with his family to the Sanders' house at some point after his mother picked him up from the laundromat. After returning from the Sanders, he went home and spent most of the evening on the phone with friends. He was with family all afternoon and evening on May 5, 1993. He might not remember exact time frames, and no one would unless it was a general schedule thing like "I worked from 9 to 5 and then went home and spent the night with my family." Being on trial for murder doesn't make one's memory any better, unfortunately.
 
There was no confusion.

Damien's alibi conflicted with his mother's, his sister's, and the Sanders.

It's in the trial transcript.

And the problem is what?

DE had a poor recollection of specific times, something which isn't surprising for a kid accustomed to roaming around with few, if any, responsibilities.

DE's mother's recollection of the times is better for DE than his own recollection.

In both cases, they remember being together since before the children were last seen by others.

As for the admission that the story changed as needed (which you quoted in a previous post), the questioning was sarcastic and DE responded in kind. Sarcasm is always ill advised on the witness stand; this is just one more reason that DE's lawyers should have talked him out of testifying.
 

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