Japan: 9.0 Earthquake-Tsunami-Nuclear Reactor Developments #3

[sorrell skye]

Yes, I know, but that means that they can be moved, just not far. What are the limits of how far they can be safely moved? That's all I'm wondering.

ETA( In other words, were they stored that close out of absolute necessity or was it laziness and cost cutting that led to the increased risk they are seeing now?)

I just edited my previous post to include a diagram of the Mark I reactor design. It helps to see where the spent fuel pool is located.

 

[not_my_kids]

I just edited my previous post to include a diagram of the Mark I reactor design. It helps to see where the spent fuel pool is located.

Like I said, I know where the pools are. But it still doesn't tell me if they had to store them that way...google just ain't helping this time.

I know that they couldn't move them far, no matter what. They give off radiation and they are unstable. I get that. But was there a better place that they could have stored them?

It almost seems to me that they didn't think it was ever possible that any sort of calamity could strike the plant. Not that they had planned for every possibility, like they keeprepeating, but more that they just thought, "Nope, not here. Not us." I don't even think it matters at this point, but little things like that bother me, and if there was a better way, that could be part of the reason that we keep being told by our experts that the pools are dry and told by theirs that they are just fine.

 

[Nova]

We might have no clue, but i betcha someone high in office does. Hate this to become political, because in essence it's not, but why is BO in Rio right now (southen hemisphere).

Because everything the POTUS does is examined under a microscope. If Obama were to suddenly cancel plans, the result would be panic and the feeding of everyone's favorite conspiracy theory.

With modern communications, Obama can be reached at any time virtually anywhere in the world. There is a limit to what the U.S. can do, but whatever it is can be approved by Obama from Rio as easily as from Washington.

 

[not_my_kids]

French industry minister Eric Besson said: ‘Let’s not beat about the bush.
They have visibly lost the essential of control.’
Sergei Kiriyenko, the head of Russia’s state nuclear corporation said: ‘Unfortunately, the situation is developing under the worst scenario.’
And Sebastian Pflugbeil, president of the Society for Radiation Protection, said the crisis was at the ‘beginning of the catastrophic phase’.
He added: ‘Maybe we have to pray.’
Workers were forced to withdraw briefly from the power plant because of rising radiation levels.
Police were put on standby to use water cannons usually used to control rioters to cool spent fuel rods.
However, Dr Richard Wakeford, of the University of Manchester, said the Japanese had taken appropriate action for the possibility of a serious radioactive release and the current levels ‘should be no cause for concern’.


Read more: http://www.metro.co.uk/news/858316-...t-to-prevent-a-nuclear-disaster#ixzz1GqJJb7kN

I'm with Mr. Pflugbeil. (On the re-read that is a phrase I never could have seen myself putting into type.)

 

[sorrell skye]

Like I said, I know where the pools are. But it still doesn't tell me if they had to store them that way...google just ain't helping this time.

I know that they couldn't move them far, no matter what. They give off radiation and they are unstable. I get that. But was there a better place that they could have stored them?

It almost seems to me that they didn't think it was ever possible that any sort of calamity could strike the plant. Not that they had planned for every possibility, like they keeprepeating, but more that they just thought, "Nope, not here. Not us." I don't even think it matters at this point, but little things like that bother me, and if there was a better way, that could be part of the reason that we keep being told by our experts that the pools are dry and told by theirs that they are just fine.

I know what you mean, NMK. I don't know why they designed the Mark I the way they did.

I think the location of the spent fuel pool (above the reactor) was to decrease the distance to transfer the fuel rods to & from the reactor (according to what I've read).

In the past few days, we've been told by "experts" in the nuclear energy field that the Mark I facilities have been upgraded with 'improvements" since 1972.

IMO, the location of this spent fuel pool seems to have been an overlooked improvement - especially considering that the only containment is the roof, which we have all seen how easily has been destroyed.

 

[sorrell skye]

French industry minister Eric Besson said: ‘Let’s not beat about the bush.

They have visibly lost the essential of control.’

Read more: http://www.metro.co.uk/news/858316-...t-to-prevent-a-nuclear-disaster#ixzz1GqWyg0ST

This Scottish Texas-born-&-bred gal would say to you: "Put up or shut up" - and yes I'm speaking to you, French Industry Minister Eric Besson. I've had it up to here with the French criticism of this catastrophe. Anyone can criticize.

Please offer your solutions, M. Besson.

Japan (and the world) needs your expert help.

As a French government official, if you are willing & able to criticize, should you not also be willing & able to offer viable solutions?

In your own words, M. Besson, "Let's not beat around the bush".

Indeed.

What do you propose?

The world is listening.

 

[Trident]

I see that it's being reported that certain dependents are being evac'ed out of that country.

If you have a family member or know of one that is a dependent of a service member and they are being evac'ed please---please don't give any details or where they are going to on open forum. This website is open to anyone to read. Please don't post? Thank you.

About radiation making it's way to HI or the west coast.

Here is the bottom line: I can take the pill or make my kids take the pill for their thyroid. Sure. But that isn't an antidote for radiation exposure or radiation poisoning.

If fallout or radiation travels that far (we are pretty darn far) and remains concentrated enough to cause serious health issues then well...

we all have to just bend over and kiss our own behinds....IYKWIM.

I can't get overconcerned for a variety of reasons. But I still don't think that we are going to see major problems. I just don't. My stance is also that the federal govn of the USA isn't lying to us. There is absolutely no reason for them to mislead or lie to the public---but then again I am very anti-conspiracy theory. Just me. Not a dig at anyone just stating my stance.

What I do fear is that some knucklehead is going to panic and either get him/herself killed (which thins out the herd of idiots but...) and take their child(ren) out with them. They will end up killing their kids because they will panic and do something very very stupid----like completely seal their home on plastic? Good lawd. It scares me for the kids.

There really isn't anything to do. Whatcha gonna do? (shrugs) nothing really to do but sit and wait and see.

All JMHO and sharing my stance on things today which could change. If other see it differently I'm cool with that

BBM Kat, I respect your posts very much. However, you say,

"Here is the bottom line: I can take the pill or make my kids take the pill for their thyroid. Sure. But that isn't an antidote for radiation exposure or radiation poisoning."

and you are correct, no, it isn't. But, I'm not sure anyone outside of Japan is anticipating radiation poisoning, such as the workers, or maybe the people within a certain range of the reactors may be experiencing. What "I" think a lot of people are anticipating, and rightly so, is another cloud of radiation blowing over, depositing radiation as it goes. I do not feel that has anything to do with panic, just common sense, and maybe a bit of prevention.

I lived through Chernobyl and no one told us very much when that cloud went over and over and over. If I had any access to the "pill", I would have given it to my youngest child, the one with the underdeveloped thyroid, then maybe, just maybe, she wouldn't be suffering from thyroid cancer for the rest of her life.

No, I probably would never plastic the house unless I lived next door to a reactor in meltdown, but if there is a way to protect our young children from fallout, why would anyone not use it? I wish to God I'd had that choice.

My opinion only

 

[hollyblue]

The spent fuel pool in a Mark I is located just above the reactor.

http://my.firedoglake.com/scarecrow/2011/03/16/78903/

Great article...:goldstar: Thank you.

 

[Trident]

For instance, the Japan forecast shows that the radioactive plume will probably miss the agency’s monitoring stations at Midway and in the Hawaiian Islands but is likely to be detected in the Aleutians and at a monitoring station in Sacramento.

The forecast assumes that radioactivity in Japan is released continuously and forms a rising plume. It ends with the plume heading into Southern California and the American Southwest, including Nevada, Utah and Arizona. The plume would have continued eastward if the United Nations scientists had run the projection forward.
http://www.nytimes.com/2011/03/17/science/17plume.html?_r=1

No, there is no way of knowing how much radiation is blowing around, but I believe any extra is too much.

 

[hollyblue]

Like I said, I know where the pools are. But it still doesn't tell me if they had to store them that way...google just ain't helping this time.

I know that they couldn't move them far, no matter what. They give off radiation and they are unstable. I get that. But was there a better place that they could have stored them?

It almost seems to me that they didn't think it was ever possible that any sort of calamity could strike the plant. Not that they had planned for every possibility, like they keeprepeating, but more that they just thought, "Nope, not here. Not us." I don't even think it matters at this point, but little things like that bother me, and if there was a better way, that could be part of the reason that we keep being told by our experts that the pools are dry and told by theirs that they are just fine.

From sorrel's link:
— There is a storage pond on the fourth floor of each of the reactors, and all units had an inventory of fuel rods at varying degrees of “spent.” Only a small percentage is actually “spent” in this type of reactor, so there is still substantial energy/heat potential in so-called “spent” fuel rods. In addition to the storage pond in each reactor building, there is also a larger common spent fuel pond in another building that is used by all reactors at the Fukushima Daiichi station.

Reads like that orange crane is used to move the spent fuel rods, but not sure if that means to this other building..........which I now want to know where THAT is in relation to the all the reactors. :banghead:

 

[Trident]

And the dying goes on and on:

By SHINO YUASA and FOSTER KLUG, Associated Press Shino Yuasa And Foster Klug, Associated Press – 11 mins ago

TOKYO – First came the tsunami, which killed many elderly people unable to flee their homes. Then came the radiation, which forced a hospital to evacuate some 100 older patients. Fourteen did not survive.
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20110317...jA3luX3RvcF9zdG9yaWVzBHNsawMxNGVsZGVybHlkaWU-

 

[hollyblue]

http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/flatpages/nationworld/reactor.html

 

[Melanie]

[6:33 a.m. ET Thursday, 7:33 p.m. Thursday in Tokyo] At least 20 people have fallen ill due to possible radiation contamination - in addition to 19 injured and two missing at the damaged Fukushima Daiichi plant, the International Atomic Energy Agency reported.

http://news.blogs.cnn.com/2011/03/17/japan-quake-live-blog-obama-pledges-u-s-support/?hpt=T1

 

[Kat]

From mel's link above me in post number 493

5,457 confirmed dead
9,508 reported missing

 

[not_my_kids]

A Japanese military CH-47 Chinook helicopter began dumping seawater on the damaged reactor of Unit 3 at the Fukushima complex at 9:48 a.m., said defense ministry spokeswoman Kazumi Toyama. The aircraft dumped at least four loads on the reactor, though much of the water appeared to be dispersed in the wind.

At least a dozen more loads were planned in the 40 minutes that each crew can operate before switching to limit radiation exposure, the ministry said.

http://www.postcrescent.com/article...ns-air-drop-stricken-reactor?odyssey=nav|head

 

[Trident]

From mel's link above me in post number 493

5,457 confirmed dead
9,508 reported missing

Thanks for the figures, Kat. So many deaths are related in some way to this disaster, I wonder how anyone can ever tally the true figures.

What really bothers me is hearing a caller on NG last night saying the U.S.S. Ronald Reagan were seeing bodies floating in the ocean off the coast of Japan. My God, I cannot imagine. . .

 

[not_my_kids]

-Updates with Minor New Info Throughout --Emergency Crews Spray Reactor 3 With Water Cannon --Crews Had Temporarily Withdrawn Cannon Due To High Radiation Levels --PM Kan and President Obama Agree to Cooperate on Crisis in Phone Call --Decision to Proceed on Water Spraying, Dumping Despite High Radiation --Nuclear Offl: Need to Prevent Same Thing Happened Last Two Reactors --U.S.-Japan Disagree on Details of Danger --Radiation Levels Higher 20 Kilometers From Fukushima
http://www.automatedtrader.net/real...rews-begin-spraying-reactor-with-water-cannon

What exactly has happened to the other four reactors?
Levels are higher 20 km out...would someone please define higher?
If the levels outside the plant are dropping, why did they have to withdraw the cannon?
And from the last article I linked, is there any way that one of our smart people can clue us in on a guess at the actual radiation levels above the plant? If the crews can only stay up there 40 minutes at a time to remain within safe levels, then what are they really looking at there?TIA if anyone can answer that.
ETA: And I wonder if they mean the original safe limits or their new, improved, handy dandy safe limits.

 

[nursebeeme]

Two Ground Self-Defense Force choppers dropped seawater in a 7,500-liter bag four times each in the morning on the No. 3 reactor, an operation on which Defense Minister Toshimi Kitazawa said in Tokyo, ''We decided to do this because we thought that today is the time limit.''

The 12-minute operation was followed in the evening by the shooting of high-pressure streams of water by six SDF fire trucks. A water cannon truck dispatched by the Metropolitan Police Department also began spraying water, but suspended the work later, the National Police Agency said.

Kitazawa said that he believes the water from the copters reached the reactor, but plant operator Tokyo Electric Power Co. said that the radiation level remained unchanged at the nuclear plant afterward.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/blog/2011/mar/17/japan-nuclear-crisis-tsunami-aftermath

 

[not_my_kids]

[6:33 a.m. ET Thursday, 7:33 p.m. Thursday in Tokyo] At least 20 people have fallen ill due to possible radiation contamination - in addition to 19 injured and two missing at the damaged Fukushima Daiichi plant, the International Atomic Energy Agency reported.

http://news.blogs.cnn.com/2011/03/17/japan-quake-live-blog-obama-pledges-u-s-support/?hpt=T1

Do they mean workers or citizens? Sorry, I'm slow today. My son needed two breathing treatments and a hot shower in the middle of the night and my coffee isn't ready. Maybe by, oh, about noon, I'll be tracking better.

 

[nursebeeme]

[7:37 a.m. ET Thursday, 8:37 p.m. Thursday in Tokyo] An operation to spray water on the No. 3 nuclear reactor at the Fukushima Daiichi nuclear plant has ended after 40 minutes, Japan's Defense Ministry says. Five fire trucks took turns spraying water for two minutes each, officials said, and there was no further spraying planned.

http://news.blogs.cnn.com/2011/03/17/japan-quake-live-blog-obama-pledges-u-s-support/