IN - Lauren Spierer, 20, Bloomington, 03 June 2011 - #17

[The Smurf]

We are all entitled to our opinions thank you. The police have NOT released information to a certain subset of people, such as the video (aside from the 2:51 AM video) and phone records (that being of JW or any POI) so your guess is as good as mine. IIRC, you and I have the same info. Your guut may be on someone else and mine is on JW. That's why we have this great forum, to air our reasons and theories for such. From what I have read on JW from this and other forums, he's not a golden boy and would have motive. His girlfriend was out with a guy that his friends just beat the snot out of. Have a nice day.

Relax. If we never commented on each other's posts we would never have discussion and this forum would look like the comment section of a youtube video. Nowhere in my posts do I attack you personally. I simply disagree with your opinion and state the reasons why I think so. Thank you for wishing me a nice day, though. I appreciate it.

 

[The Smurf]

http://theforceofreason.wordpress.com/2011/07/09/why-
ernie-reno-is-a-badass/
Has anybody else seen this? There are sooo many crazy rumors floating around-i really just dont know what to think about any of it anymore! Is there really a homeless person that heard her scream and is he now dead? Seems a bit far fetched to me...but scary at the same time. Ive dreamt of Lauren every night for the last 3 wks. I also have strong suspicions of zo and ab for some reason-they live RIGHT there

If you watch the video of the community meeting you can pretty easily tell that these guys are a bit out there and are pushing a certain agenda that really has nothing to do with LS.

 

[Gabby66]

When you say you've "read rumors," are you referring to an earlier post where someone here speculated that this may have been a possibility? (
http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showpost.php?p=6778002&postcount=12) or something else?
I haven't seen any evidence to suggest MB was trying unsuccessfully to get Lauren to leave.....

I don't remember where I read this, which is why I called it "rumor". Yes, there is no evidence to suggest he was trying to get her to leave, just as there's none to suggest he wasn't. I think she was probably drunk and on drugs. That's my assumption. It's not based on evidence b/c there is none. If she wasn't in any condition to get herself home safely though, how was she able to presumably arrive at 5 North safely? That's something I think about. If CR was hit so hard that he doesn't remember, he likely wasn't helping her down that alley.

Since I assume she was drunk/drugged, I think the sex/flirting thing is entirely possible. These drugs certainly alter one's behavior and I've heard cocaine referred to as making one a "sexual athlete". That's nothing derogatory against Lauren.

If we're going to create scenarios based on nothing but pure speculation, wouldn't it be equally, if not more, plausible that she could have left because she didn't want to have sex? Or because something made her feel that walking home barefoot at 4 am was safer / better than staying at JR's? Or none of the above?

Yes, of course it would be equally plausible to assume this. The truth us, ALL theories are made on speculation at this point b/c we really have no facts. I'm throwing out plausible explanations. I'm not saying that the opposite is also not plausible.

know we are exploring many possibilities here, but if this kind of speculation is based on nothing more than what college girls may or may not do, I'm not sure how worthwhile that is. To me, it seems a short step away from blaming the victim

That's pretty harsh. My comments were only to serve as a response to someone's question, wondering why she was at each place presumable for an hour. It was questioned why she'd be there with MB for an hour if he wanted to study. I was merely speculating one reason for that. It's a logical possibility. Speculating why she may have been at a place for an hour places NO blame on LS whatsoever. In fact, you snipped out some of my important details so when quoting me out of context, you were missing my point. When I said that she may have left, not wanting to retire for the night, and rather wanting to party or sex, or both, I was suggesting that she may have wanted to go to a friends to party OR to her BOYFRIEND'S for sex and/or partying.

 

[soyesterday]

I still think that sex was definately involved. Partying, drinking, drugs, etc.... i would think all make it easier for that to have happened. Being alone w/ guys even w/out that stuff.....i don't know what i'm trying to say.
But guys/girls and their emotions/hormones...things like that are always there.
I'm just saying that her being alone with all those guys for that long of a time, i think something could have been going on w/ her and one of them.
I only say JR cuz they were childhood friends and i think Lauren might have been emotionally and physically vunerable that night and might have turned to JR for comfort.
I do think she wanted to be w/ CR, but we all know what supposedly happened there.
I think JR is afraid to admit that he was "with" LS in that way that night.
I know i keep repeating myself.
But i also think that HT ratted her out to JW and he knew what was going on.

 

[The Smurf]

I still think that sex was definately involved. Partying, drinking, drugs, etc.... i would think all make it easier for that to have happened. Being alone w/ guys even w/out that stuff.....i don't know what i'm trying to say.
But guys/girls and their emotions/hormones...things like that are always there.
I'm just saying that her being alone with all those guys for that long of a time, i think something could have been going on w/ her and one of them.
I only say JR cuz they were childhood friends and i think Lauren might have been emotionally and physically vunerable that night and might have turned to JR for comfort.
I do think she wanted to be w/ CR, but we all know what supposedly happened there.
I think JR is afraid to admit that he was "with" LS in that way that night.
I know i keep repeating myself.
But i also think that HT ratted her out to JW and he knew what was going on.

This has been my problem all along. This whole theory is based on nothing. We have no clue about any of it. The most plausable of your theories is the idea that LS was attracted to CR, but we dont even know this for sure. The idea that HT ratted her out to JW, along with the implications you are placing on that statement make no sense. If this were true, all of his actions would seem ridiculous on the day of her dissapearance and would place suspicion directly on him. If HT told JW what happened it would make no sense for him to be looking for her the day after, to call the parents, etc. Even if he killed her it wouldnt make sense. Also, when did HT rat her friend out? Was it between the time LS met CR and the night she dissapeared? If so, their relationship would have ended prior to that night. Also, another poster said that HT stated she thought LS was going to stay at JW's that night. If this is true, it doesnt really seem plausable that HT told JW about CR.

I understand suspicion being placed on JW. I do not understand the storytelling that goes on in regards to him.

 

[Walker]

I agree with you. When I 1st heard this story, my 1st thought was that one guy, (while the others played dumb), managed to get her alone or a group of guys took advantage of her. This is pure speculation, but I know from stories I heard while my dd was in high school, it happens. A LOT. For instance...a cheerleader went to a party, got drunk, and then had 'consensual' sex with a group of football players. The next day at school, a lot of kids were talking about the night and what she had done. She never denied it...just said that she was drunk and it wasn't her fault. There was a campaign by the cheerleader moms to get her kicked off the squad. The next year, there was the same story, but involved a different cheerleader. I'm not accusing her friends, because she could have been picked up on her walk home, but I do know there's nothing more dangerous for a girl, than a group of entitled guys egging each other on. When a certain type of guy gets together with others of that type, and alcohol or drugs are added to the mix, an intoxicated girl becomes nothing but a thing. MOO

What does "dd" stand for? Thanks.

 

[bessie]

What does "dd" stand for? Thanks.

dear daughter

 

[Walker]

The fact that LE has had over a month and can not rule out anyone makes me discount the ability of the Bloomington police Dept. The whole investigation has been pretty brutal.

How do know that they haven't ruled out anyone?

A POI is not a suspect. A POI just means that the person may have useful information regarding the victim or the circumstances of the crime.

Judging the Bloomington Police Department based on the current state of this case is unfair. Unfortunately, life is much more complicated than an episode of Law & Order.

 

[Darcyline]

Walker-It is possible they are not releasing the information, but the most recent press release by LE literally stated we have ruled absolutely no one out. They were also conducting searches of many of the POI's very recently.

I don't think they really know what happened. Maybe they have a few theories, but they don't know for sure and not dismissing any idea or person is the tactic they are taking.

 

[The Smurf]

How do know that they haven't ruled out anyone?

A POI is not a suspect. A POI just means that the person may have useful information regarding the victim or the circumstances of the crime.

Judging the Bloomington Police Department based on the current state of this case is unfair. Unfortunately, life is much more complicated than an episode of Law & Order.

We do know that early on in the case unorganized searches were taking place all over the Bloomington area. We also know that it took up to 12 days to interview certain residents of the direct area. We also know the chief stated they still had POI's they wanted to talk to, days into the case. Lawyers were already involved and the police missed their chance. We also now that the Spierer's commented that they were a part of the investigative team. <Mod Snip>

 

[VeryVeritas]

I dont know how plausible it would be to:

1: Transport her body a few blocks
2: enter a busy apartment complex filled with college students, some who are likely to be awake
3: take her to her room
4: place her in her bed

That would take HT being directly involved in the cover-up and that girl would have talked. I do not think that their were more than 1 or 2 people involved in this. Every added person involved increases the chances of someone talking or stories not lining up. There is no way that their original plan was to put her in her bed. If she did OD, the people with her panicked and hid her. If they took her 30-40 minutes outside the city they didnt even need to hide her well. They just need to hide her in a place no one has looked. That could be anywhere.

Where do you come up with 30 to 40 minutes?

the way I see it if something happened at 2:55 am ... or even 3:15
JR's unsubstantiated 4:15 to 4:30 time frame already bought 1 full hour.
But no one would report her missing for several hours. So why not 1 hr away or 1.5 hrs away? But she could be right there in a construction site that was filled in, somewhere in the sewers in the area, or even sitting well packaged in a storage unit of some kind. I really don't know what kind of system waste haulers have to catch bodies in the trash? It seems to me that the way i see huge dumpsters heaping trash and compacting it and then landfills where it is dumped, bodies or parts could very easily go unnoticed. A less than 100lb person well wrapped and put into a dumpster seems like it would just get quickly buried by more trash.

So if you have some way to narrow the disposal time down to even 40 minutes I'd like to see how that was possible??

 

[Tr.]

His girlfriend was out with a guy that his friends just beat the snot out of.

To the point of a possible relationship between ZO, AB, and JW:

Someone on the previous thread claimed that JW did not know the two individuals (ZO and AB) that confronted CR.

It was stated early on that the three young men (ZO,AB and JW) were friends and speculation has grown that the confrontation at Small Wood erupted out of the "loyal" friends (ZO and AB) defending the absent boyfriend (JW).
It has been speculated that ZO and AB may have been sent by JW to look for LS and were "planted" at Small Wood in wait.

It has since been speculated that the confrontation may have been carry-over from the club, or from the previous weekend in Indy, or unpaid drug debt, or a combination thereof.

If in fact JW were not acquainted with ZO and AB then what a coincidence it would be that ZO and AB would run in to CR inside the Small Wood apartment building.
After all, it seems that none of these guys lived in the building.
LS lived in the Small Wood building, CR in the 5 North Building, ZO and AB presumably in the 10th & College building (in between Small Wood and 5 North, and JW on 9th St.

I speculate that the encounter at Small Wood is/was by no means coincidental.

 

[cluciano63]

Well...they did rule out the white truck...

 

[VeryVeritas]

As someone astutely pointed out on another site, if you find yourself with the body of a person who has OD'd, the ideal place to take that body would be her own bed. That way the body is found and nobody else is suspected. In this case that would mean calling a trusted friend in Smallwood to let you in around 4:15 or so. Trouble is, he might be asleep and not answer, leaving you to come up with plan B.

uh... how would you get the body past the cams?

it seems to me that there was knowledge of where most cams exist.

At least the ones between 5 North and Smallwood.

 

[Lovejac]

uh... how would you get the body past the cams?

it seems to me that there was knowledge of where most cams exist.

At least the ones between 5 North and Smallwood.

It's an apartment for college students. I'm sure their cameras have seen a fair share of drunken people being carried and/or supported. :crazy:

 

[The Smurf]

Where do you come up with 30 to 40 minutes?

the way I see it if something happened at 2:55 am ... or even 3:15
JR's unsubstantiated 4:15 to 4:30 time frame already bought 1 full hour.
But no one would report her missing for several hours. So why not 1 hr away or 1.5 hrs away? But she could be right there in a construction site that was filled in, somewhere in the sewers in the area, or even sitting well packaged in a storage unit of some kind. I really don't know what kind of system waste haulers have to catch bodies in the trash? It seems to me that the way i see huge dumpsters heaping trash and compacting it and then landfills where it is dumped, bodies or parts could very easily go unnoticed. A less than 100lb person well wrapped and put into a dumpster seems like it would just get quickly buried by more trash.

So if you have some way to narrow the disposal time down to even 40 minutes I'd like to see how that was possible??

All I was saying was that the majority of the search was in the direct Bloomington area. 30-40 minutes was simply a rough estimate for the distance you might have to go to be outside the range of areas that were heavily searched.

 

[VeryVeritas]

Because the carrier realizes he's been seen at 3:38. The call is to try to deny that potential witness testimony and make it appear that she was still alive later at 4:15, then of course at 4:30 as well.

I really want to see the 3:38 put on the map. And... the range limitations of the 2:51 Alley Cam exit.

 

[amoncrieff]

The idea that HT ratted her out to JW, along with the implications you are placing on that statement make no sense. If this were true, all of his actions would seem ridiculous on the day of her dissapearance and would place suspicion directly on him. If HT told JW what happened it would make no sense for him to be looking for her the day after, to call the parents, etc. Even if he killed her it wouldnt make sense. Also, when did HT rat her friend out? Was it between the time LS met CR and the night she dissapeared?

I agree with your general supposition that JW's known behavior is consistent with various reports of his whereabouts during the crucial hours preceding LS' disappearance. Example: One roommate reportedly spent the entire evening w/JW watching Mavs-Heat until JW went to bed at approx. 2:30.

However, it's also entirely possible someone involved in the altercation with CR may have known JW & texted or voicemailed JW with information that LS was accompanied by CR when both arrived at Smallwood. The altercation reportedly occurred sometime between 2:30 and 2:48.

Which is not to say JW acted upon or even received the information at the time it was sent. No one, to my knowledge, avows either.

What we do know is whatever JW knew or didn't know about LS the evening prior hardly affected his concern the following morning, when JW repeatedly attempted to contact LS via voice/text Friday morning, acquire access to her apartment via HT to check on her well-being, immediately contacted BPD and her parents when LS could not be located. It's also worth noting Kilroy employees have already corroborated JW's numerous attempts to contact LS by eventually responding on her behalf, informing JW that LS left her shoes/phone at the bar.

Similarly consistent -- reports from friends of LS & JW that JW was apparently tolerant, forgiving and not the typical "controlling" male evidence JW's dutiful passivity "waiting for her to text him, to say, 'Come over and hang out'".

 

[bessie]

We do know that early on in the case unorganized searches were taking place all over the Bloomington area. We also know that it took up to 12 days to interview certain residents of the direct area. We also know the chief stated they still had POI's they wanted to talk to, days into the case. Lawyers were already involved and the police missed their chance. We also now that the Spierer's commented that they were a part of the investigative team. This is not meant to disparage them, but that does not speak to a professional handling of the case.

With all due respect, Smurf, are you qualified to make that judgment? And do you know to what extent Lauren's parents are, or were, actually involved in the investigation?

 

[VeryVeritas]

I mentioned this before, will say it again, I can't imagine walking on gravel without shoes...
can't imagine doing that in the dark alley ways - no fear of stepping on broken glass?

Also, doing that (walking without shoes) would be a tip off to anyone seeing her that she's under the influence - making her easy prey....

No shoes is something the Campus PD look for when looking those under the influence - based on what I've seen on Campus PD shows...

Are you suggesting that something happened to her on the way to 5 North or that she left 5 North via the gravel lot(not as JR indicated) and that's when something happened?