IN - Lauren Spierer, 20, Bloomington, 03 June 2011 - #17

[VeryVeritas]

About LS's roommates:

HT and another roommate said in an early TV interview that they were "always" partying with Lauren, but not that night. Really? Why not? What was different about that night?

HT said Lauren "went too far" this time. How does she know that? HT said she and her friends went to JR's "all the time last year." Could she have been at JR's party earlier in the evening and have seen LS there?

Perhaps HT was also there later, maybe with DR. Maybe they decided to go back to Smallwood and LS wanted to stay at JR's and continue to party.

I have always thought HT's "too far" comment sounded critical of LS. Maybe she was angry at LS for not going home to Smallwood with her.

Maybe the 4:15 call was to DR and HT because, as has been suggested, HT was with DR, and JR knew that.

Well here's the challenge for HT...

Just what does partying at JR's entail? We have yet to hear one of these "friends" pull the facade off of this and talk turkey. Is she talking about playing quarters with lite beer, or is she talking about doing eight balls of coke?

 

[VeryVeritas]

I can't rememeber....was DR another roomate of Lauren's and HT? Or did he live in a different apt? Were HT and DR dating? or "hooking up" that night? Is that what some of you mean by together?
Also, people say CR was showing "inapropriate" attention to Lauren that night, but her and JR were alone for over an hour supposedly. What if she was cheating on JW w/ JR? I think JW had to have known something was going on that night w/ Lauren and all these guys. Or when i say something was going on, i even just mean that she was hanging out w/ a bunch of different guys at their apts.
I would think that could put a boyfriend in a jealous rage.
Especially if he went and found her in a "compromising" position, maybe?
I honestly can't think right now if any or which one of these guys might have been "friends" w/ JW or not?
But Lauren was a really pretty, blonde girl in a vunerable state possibly and.....i just don't know....
Did JW see something and get upset? Did he take her out of there? Did he wait for her? Did he pick her up and they fought and things went too far?
If some rumors were true and they were kinda on/off broken up, was he upset that she was "moving on"? Was she upset that night because of her and JW's relationship and took things further than she normally would have?
Where are you Lauren?????

I don't see anywhere that it was established that JR was alone with LS from 3:00am-ish until her puported departure. By all accounts there were others at CR/MB's and at least one visiting friend at JR's. These people should be able to paint a much clearer picture (or reveal the lies) of whether LS was actually in JR's place and if she was "partying", what "partying" meant to them, and if she was ever alone with JR (like going into his bedroom,etc...)

 

[VeryVeritas]

I often wonder about HT. Seems kinda shady.

I really would like to see a dossier on each of the POI's, HT and all involved.
It seems like everyone surrounding LS was either into drugs and/or serious drinking, paid little attention to rules, or in this case was "shady"

Where is HT from? Is she Israeli?

 

[VeryVeritas]

But this leaves open the possibility that dumpsters were not checked before they were picked up. Searching a dumpster that had been picked up a time or two since she was last seen is not going to be very helpful. And I have no idea how police would effectively search a landfill, especially if the search isn't done immediately.

Is there really only one garbage service in bloomington and only one landfill? I find that hard to believe. And if the body were temporarily (or still) stored and later dumped or even that night driven 30 mins to 1 hr away... how many other dumpsters and landfills woudl that open up? How long would it take for the scent to bet buried? I really don't know LE protocol on this, it just seems to me that trash piles up quickly and a small girl wrapped and bagged well would quickly get buried to the point dogs would not smell it.

 

[Tr.]

To the point of a possible relationship between ZO, AB, and JW:

Someone on the previous thread claimed that JW did not know the two individuals (ZO and AB) that confronted CR.

It was stated early on that the three young men (ZO,AB and JW) were friends and speculation has grown that the confrontation at Small Wood erupted out of the "loyal" friends (ZO and AB) defending the absent boyfriend (JW).
It has been speculated that ZO and AB may have been sent by JW to look for LS and were "planted" at Small Wood in wait.

It has since been speculated that the confrontation may have been carry-over from the club, or from the previous weekend in Indy, or unpaid drug debt, or a combination thereof.

If in fact JW were not acquainted with ZO and AB then what a coincidence it would be that ZO and AB would run in to CR inside the Small Wood apartment building.
After all, it seems that none of these guys lived in the building.
LS lived in the Small Wood building, CR in the 5 North Building, ZO and AB presumably in the 10th & College building (in between Small Wood and 5 North, and JW on 9th St.

I speculate that the encounter at Small Wood is/was by no means coincidental.

According to researchers on the previous thread JW shares no "Facebook" connection with ZO and AB.

Continuing with the theory that JW is not associated with ZO and AB and the confrontation at Small Wood was not a "chance" encounter, some questions come to mind:

- If ZO and AB were actually looking for CR to confront him about something...why would they look for him in the Small Wood building?

The short answer is...They wouldn't. They would be most likely to encounter CR at or around his building (5 North)....unless they know that he's not there and may be somewhere else.

- How would someone know that CR is somewhere else and/or know where he is going to be?
my theory - Because he is with LS and it is her that they are actually keeping tabs on. They most likely knew her whereabouts the entire night.

IMO...ZO may have been watching LS since the previous weekend in Indy. He/they also seem to be able to gain access to Small Wood without any problem.

- Why would they wait to confront CR inside Small Wood?
Because seeing LS with CR was too much emotional strain for ZO and allowing CR to be with LS inside her apartment was not an option...at any cost.

- Why would someone harm LS?
In this case imo..because she rejected him.

- Why hasn't LS been found?
IMO...because the perps (unlike the other POI's) are local. They're very familiar with the area.
I think that she's been hidden well but not in the immediate Bloomington area.

 

[VeryVeritas]

In the case that this OD theory were true;

Suppose JR called 911, and took LS to the ER. How would LE prove that JR had given LS any drugs?

Now of course, batches can be chemically "matched," but JR could just remove any possible stash from his apartment.

A possible witness may have been willing to testify that JR gave LS drugs, but if that were the case, wouldn't JR be named a suspect by now?

Would JR trust all the people who may have been present that morning in his apartment while LS was also present, to keep quiet about an improper disposal of her dead body, but not trust those same people to be quiet about where she had gotten the drugs?

I dont' see why he would be named a suspect... any one or all of these people could say they shared drugs with LS that night. Without a body or other evidence there is nothing to link statement that they may have done drugs together with LS with what happened to her. Admitting to sharing drugs when there is no evidence is not a crime, right? Yet, someone afraid that a body may turn up, might not want to admit anything. And if you knew she died that way, why admit anything?

 

[VeryVeritas]

Are there stairs she could've fallen down at 5 North that could've resulted in a fatal injury?

If you want to assume that she never actually left 5 North as described, and believe an OD situation wouldn't have scared anyone enough to panic and hide the body, then what about a fall and closed head injury? That would open up the possibility of a- push, something happening due to getting away from an unwanted advance, barely able to walk or passing out and falling, or some other double-edged sword adding to the panic of the moment. Now you'd have to worry not only about being one of the ones to have supplied drugs but also being suspected of causing the fatal fall (in one form or another... directly or indirectly).

The fall and push have been theorized. Stairs however, hasn't been much discussed. For some reason I have always envisioned CR/MB and JR as being on a second or third floor. Can someone verify? I also envisioned those open concrete stairs. Certainly a fall down cement stairs could be fatal. Or perhaps even a combination of injuries and chemicals.

 

[Tr.]

Is there really only one garbage service in bloomington and only one landfill? I find that hard to believe. And if the body were temporarily (or still) stored and later dumped or even that night driven 30 mins to 1 hr away... how many other dumpsters and landfills woudl that open up? How long would it take for the scent to bet buried? I really don't know LE protocol on this, it just seems to me that trash piles up quickly and a small girl wrapped and bagged well would quickly get buried to the point dogs would not smell it.

Could you take a look at post #223 and work with it please?
I like the way you see various angles.

 

[Walker]

We do know that early on in the case unorganized searches were taking place all over the Bloomington area. We also know that it took up to 12 days to interview certain residents of the direct area. We also know the chief stated they still had POI's they wanted to talk to, days into the case. Lawyers were already involved and the police missed their chance.

The problem here is that you are not considering the POIs Miranda rights.
You are seeing the situation as the lawyers vs. Justice, but that does not take into account the fact that a naive or immature person could be easily intimidated into making false and incriminating statements about himself.

In the case of the Central Park Jogger, many people believe that the teens who confessed, actually were not guilty, but were just going along with the police, either because they were intimidated, and/or perhaps did not fear prison.

We also now that the Spierer's commented that they were a part of the investigative team. This is not meant to disparage them, but that does not speak to a professional handling of the case.

Perhaps they just mean that they are working together with the police, not that they are handling any police work.

 

[Walker]

I dont' see why he would be named a suspect... any one or all of these people could say they shared drugs with LS that night. Without a body or other evidence there is nothing to link statement that they may have done drugs together with LS with what happened to her. Admitting to sharing drugs when there is no evidence is not a crime, right? Yet, someone afraid that a body may turn up, might not want to admit anything. And if you knew she died that way, why admit anything?

MY point was to show a contradiction in the "friends dumped her body" theory.

The theory is based on the "friend's" fear that LE will charge them with giving her the drugs which may have killed her, which could be construed legally as a type of assault, and could result in charges of second degree murder.

But how would LE know exactly who gave her the drugs?

Any drugs could be disposed of, and the witnesses could play dumb.

Lying about how she got the drugs is much easier than lying about disposal of a dead body.

 

[dodie20]

dear daughter

lol, I saw it written and assumed it meant 'darling daughter'.

 

[docwho3]

I appreciate your calm posting style. Big friendly wave to you.

Sorry, I do not have a link, which is why I called it "rumor". . .

. . . At this point, I think ALL theories are built upon these layers.
I for one, do not only consider foul play. I consider most all reasonable
theories because we've been shared virtually no evidence, just a sort of
timeline. There are many many possibilities which could have happened
within that "timeline" so yes, those are all going to built upon speculation
and assumptions since we have few facts. . . .

(color added by me)

Sorry, but I consider rumors that are not,in some way, supported by
actual fact to be unsatifactory for use as a base for building a theory.
(That is my opinion & not a directive for how others must be.)

For example:
Hypothetic case:
If some person named Bill goes missing after a night of drinking
with friends and LE finds his body and cause of death is found to be
gunshot wound and if one of the 2 last people known to be in his
company before he went missing has been arrested a few times for
getting drunk & threatening people with a gun then, if no facts ruled it
out, I might theorize that person might have been responsible for Bill's
death and should be looked at carefully.

But if Bill goes missing and his body is has not been found I will not
go on a rumor that his neighbor Nancy shot him because he played his
music too loud and then make up an entire theory based on supposed
friction with his neighbor Nancy with speculation of a love triangle
thrown in to boot. For me there has to be an actual basis in fact.
Of course not all people are me. Everyone has their own way of
looking at things.

In this real case about Lauren:
If her boyfriend had a past history
(mentioned in MSM or verifiable by court documents) of becoming
threatening and violent when someone broke up with him then I could
see that fact as being reason to theorize he needs to be looked at
strongly in Lauren's disapearance.

Or if those with Lauren the night she was last seen had been busted
by LE for partying with illegal drugs before I might see that as basis
for theorizing that those drugs might have been present again, perhaps,
but without any such factual history I would not pour out a theory
of heavy drug use & OD as cause of death.

In fact without something to indicate death I hate to begin theorizing
the missing person is even dead. That is because I have read so many
cases here on Websleuths, over the years, where it looked like foul play
but in fact was not foul play at all and often the missing person was not
dead, much to almost everyone's surprise.

. . .I for one, do not only consider foul play. . .

I wanted to take a moment to commend you for remaining open
to other possible case outcomes.

. . .but I really think they need to begin with a plan.
For example, if the likelihood of a stranger abduction is greater than her
maybe finding keys and getting into a car, then ODing, and being taken
to an airport, where a guy was planning to leave his car for the ENTIRE
summer, then to me it would make sense to remain more focused around
Bloomington (in the woods and other places) than venturing off to Indy.
That doesn't mean that I discount looking at the airport, or even at
Walmart, eventually, so I think we're on the same page.

It seems they have already been looking in those 'more sense' areas.
However even if it might sound unlikely for someone to leave a car
with a body behind at an airport I posted links to show it has
happened and infact already has happened this spring/summer
if I correctly recall my last websearch on the subject.

I waited until other lines of searching seemed to have failed before
mentioning the airport possibility.

In the beginning an airport was not the most likely place to look
but after all the searches on the local grounds and out in the county
rural areas failed to produce results it seemed time to begin to look
in secondary places that are of the type where bodies have been
known to have been found in other cases.

I can't remember a case of a body turning up in a walmart,
as you mentioned, but I have read of bodies turning up
at airport parking areas so I posted.

Of course self storage areas have also been known to house a body
but it is easier to get the airport parking area looked at than to get
private storage opened up all across the area.

There are probably other likely areas to look & I hope people come up
with the right place.

**************************
'. . . man was found dead in a van parked at the Albuquerque Sunport on June 5 . . .'
http://www.krqe.com/dpp/news/crime/More-details-released-on-Sunport-body-dr

'. . . The woman's body was discovered late Monday night.
While there are no obvious signs of trauma to her body, authorities do
want to know why she was in the back seat of a vehicle that was parked
inside the Terminal D parking garage at Bush Intercontinental Airport. . . .'
http://abclocal.go.com/ktrk/story?section=news/local&id=7109645

 

[threepisces]

According to researchers on the previous thread JW shares no "Facebook" connection with ZO and AB.

Continuing with the theory that JW is not associated with ZO and AB and the confrontation at Small Wood was not a "chance" encounter, some questions come to mind:

- If ZO and AB were actually looking for CR to confront him about something...why would they look for him in the Small Wood building?

The short answer is...They wouldn't. They would be most likely to encounter CR at or around his building (5 North)....unless they know that he's not there and may be somewhere else.

- How would someone know that CR is somewhere else and/or know where he is going to be?
my theory - Because he is with LS and it is her that they are actually keeping tabs on. They most likely knew her whereabouts the entire night.

IMO...ZO may have been watching LS since the previous weekend in Indy. He/they also seem to be able to gain access to Small Wood without any problem.

- Why would they wait to confront CR inside Small Wood?
Because seeing LS with CR was too much emotional strain for ZO and allowing CR to be with LS inside her apartment was not an option...at any cost.

- Why would someone harm LS?
In this case imo..because she rejected him.

- Why hasn't LS been found?
IMO...because the perps (unlike the other POI's) are local. They're very familiar with the area.
I think that she's been hidden well but not in the immediate Bloomington area.

It would be important to know if ZO/AB are at Sports before the smallwood altercation. The whole thing happened in a matter of minutes right? So they either followed them back there from the bar or were in Smallwood already and the meeting was likely coincidental. You'd also be able to know that based on the Smallwood video.

I'm not sure why they aren't getting the same police scrutiny as the other POIs. During an otherwise typical party night, the fight/punch is the most dramatic event. AND they lived on the short path that LS supposedly was taking home.

 

[The Smurf]

With all due respect, Smurf, are you qualified to make that judgment? And do you know to what extent Lauren's parents are, or were, actually involved in the investigation?

I am qualified to give an opinion based on what I know. Obviously, everything I am saying is just my opinion. It's not one of those times where it matters whether I am right or wrong. But, expressing these feelings in a public forum helps. I am frustrated with many aspects of this case, in regards to how it has been handled. Just like some people have a "gut feeling" about certain POI's or have POI's who "creep them out", my overall feeling when looking at the actions and statements from the BPD is that they have done an awful job in this case.

 

[Jupiter812]

@ Tr. or someone who knows: Do ZO and AB live in 10 and College Apartments or in 10 and College Village?

 

[Pedrosmom]

Are you suggesting that something happened to her on the way to 5 North or that she left 5 North via the gravel lot(not as JR indicated) and that's when something happened?

IIRC, JR never "indictated" anything. It was HT, that spoke for JR, when she said, JR saw LS leave at 4:30 and turn the corner at...

I don't recall that JR has uttered a single word with respect to this case. All of his words and actions have been by and through HT down to the reason for the 4:15 AM phone call.

Was HT trying to throw the scent over to JR and off of JW? She knows more than she leads on, despite not being with Lauren that night. Her phone conversations and texts would also be interesting. I think she and JW have this little pact going on. I wouldn't hand my apartment key over to my missing roommate's boyfriend with such ease.

 

[VeryVeritas]

I question at what point Lauren realized she lost her keys.
The call to DR was made at 4:15 and then she walks off into the darkness towards Smallwood. How did she think she was getting into that building? or was that her intention when she left JR's? She may have went to JW's, or known someone who had a key to let her in.
Is there an employee from Smallwood or someone else out there with a key to her apartment?
JMO
I do not assume she was as messed up as some on here and she could have sobered up enough to walk off from JR's with a plan to "call it a night and get some sleep"

It's my understanding that N. College was well lit. The Gravel Lot may have been dark, but light enough that at 2:51am the Alley Cam still records.

 

[VeryVeritas]

It isn't likely that a college student suddenly goes missing in the
mysterious circumstances that this one did & yet she is missing.
The likely possibilities have already been thought of & so far have not
appeared to yield the desired result.

So it is not unreasonable to begin to look at those less likely
possibilities.

I remember a case where an old lady died in her own home and was
considered missing for quite sometime until the time came to move
the furniture in the house and she was found dead behind some large
book case or something that she had fallen behind. A very odd case
to be sure and yet sometimes odd is what happens.

Like that young male college student that was missing & he had died from
an accident when he wandered into a maint. room that was supposed to
always be locked (only that one night it was not locked and he got
against some high voltage stuff.)

Leaving a car behind to fly home rather than drive might well depend
on where that person's family lived.
Someone from out of country or whose family lived several states away
might choose to fly home. Not sure why you find that so hard to
envision.

And while I do not know exactly why a car might not be used
if driven home and parked I can certainly see it as being one of those
oddball events that sometimes crop up in cases.

Even in the event of foul play an airport has been known to be used
to stash a body in a car parked in long term parking and so perhaps an
airport is not such a poor idea of a place to look.

And that is just one of several possibilities.

Show me some evidence that a crime happened & I will gladly begin
looking for 'who done it' possibilities to the exclusion of other possibilities.

So far I have seen wild speculations about drugs. Even LE has
not come out & said drugs were involved.

I have read speculation of a conspiracy of silence covering up either
a speculated overdose or a speculated accident or a speculated
murder. Yet there is no public evidence of any of those things.

Since there is currently no public evidence whatsoever of a crime
perhaps I might be forgiven for speculating of noncrime possibilities
while we all wait to see if any evidence of an actual crime comes to light.

A general comment:
I will comment that in general past cases which I have read searching
for a body was often the one weak link in the investigation.
Often I would read that a body was found in an area already searched
multiple times. Sometimes this was due to a dump happening after a
search had taken place but often it was just that the body was difficult
to spot. Hopefully everyone will keep their eyes open.

Ok Doc. Foul-Play = Crime

What evidence is there that at 4:15 am she committed suicide?

The speculation about drugs is based on the lifestyle prevalent among these people, and is quite common among affluent college students. It's not "Wild" speculation by any means, merely speculation.

Come up with a plausible theory and i might bite. We have discussed that she and CR may have entered a vehicle in the lot. There could be a lot of variations on that. For example... friends in a car in the gravel lot, invite them into the car... CR and LR enter another friends car which is unlocked (as CR's own car was searched for evidence). It could still be a rape scenario, a drug scenario, an accidental death scenario, or an abduction scenario. The problem is that if something did happen in the gravel lot after 2:51 AND BEFORE 4:15AM, then CR, MB and JR are all lying as well as any other witnesses in their respective company. If LS is back in the lot after 4:15 then that means JR again is lying. If the 3:38 witness did see LS on N. College near 10th (wish that were on the map!) then JR is lying in that scenario too. What is possible has grown considerably narrower given the cross checking of facts and statements.

 

[VeryVeritas]

I've read rumors that LS tended to wear out her welcome. If that's true, it may explain why she was at MB's for an hour even though he wanted to write his paper. That time could have been spent with her begging him to party, and him begging her to leave. Perhaps JR wasn't interested in partying anymore either, which is why she left there.

I've also considered this (and I honestly do not mean to imply that LS is "trashy" but just that this is the behavior of some college girls).....if she was recently broken up with JW, she could have been on the rebound. CR was her contender until he was put to bed. She then tried flirting with MB who presumably wasn't interested, so she went to flirt with JR. IF she left JR's, perhaps it was b/c she realized he wasn't interested either. I also think that this theory could be debunked with the idea that presumably at least ONE out of three guys would have jumped at her potential offer. (I now feel awful talking about a young girl in this manner but its' something to consider as this happens OFTEN on campuses - it's pretty common behavior.) This theory might explain why LS did leave JR's. She was getting nowhere and perhaps she really did go to turn to JW.

IMO something either happened at JR's or she left there for a purpose other than to go home. If she left, I think it's WAY too coincidental that she would have been abducted right at the corner, before being seen on a camera. However, I think it is possible that she crossed that street, out of camera's view, as others have pointed out the possibility. She could have been going to JW's or someone else (someone whom she knew would party with her). Maybe she never left THAT place instead? My point is that at 4:30 AM, with her presumably drunk or drugged (and we can suspect that if we believe JR told HT that he would watch to see if she stumbled), I'd think she would have rather just curl up on a friend's couch, before making that journey home, if she was truly ready to retire for the night. If she left his house, I don't think "retiring" is what she had in mind - either sex or partying, or both.

Where is this HOUR with MB coming from? At the pace CR and LS were walking through the Alley the would have been at CR/MB's apt about 2:55 or so. AA says he found purse keys at 3:00am so they had cleared the area by then. MB had said that after putting CR to bed that LS didn't want to stay. It sounded more like she wanted to leave than stay based on those statements. The speculation was that she stayed just a few minutes, perhaps as long as 15 minutes. How did it turn into a full hour? There were others there and they could corroborate the time span at CR/MB's and again JR's guest or others at JR's could help with that timeline spent with JR. Every step of that should be known to LE by now.

 

[VeryVeritas]

Excellent point and thought. That could explain everything. On the other hand it would have been too risky of a move for the POI who might have made the call.

I have started thinking that maybe the disappearance was not OD-related after all. It is hard to believe that her friends would panic to that point to dispose a body. They could have simply taken her to the ER of a hospital after they cleaned their places from drugs etc.

Although the OD theory is possible, I consider equally likely if not more likely that this was a classic rape/murder scenario under the influence of drugs. Although it is difficult to put the pieces together with the timeline of events that have been made public, maybe the police has other information that they have not disclosed that could point to a different direction.

Please explain, given the known facts, how a classic rape/murder fits here and who could or could not be involved?