IN - Lauren Spierer, 20, Bloomington, 03 June 2011 - #17

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I believe this needs to be cleared up once and for all. Correct me if I am wrong. The man (who a witness saw at 3:38 with a girl slung over his shoulder) was seen by LE on video but not at the time the witness states. Also, that man is familiar to LE. We are making the assumption that it is AB because of the witness' description.

I believe LE only said that there's no one unknown on the video with Lauren. I don't think they have made any statements that confirm that the same man described by the witness was ever seen on video.

However, they do state that there was a FINAL sighting of LS on video around 3:00AM.

Are you referring to the 2:51 (I think?) time when they state that she was exiting the alley, or something else? If there's another video after this, then I'm unaware of it and would love the details. Thanks much!

ITA. It's so hard however, to understand why they haven't obtained and viewed ALL video by now. How many hard-core cases do they have in Bloomington? I'd think they'd have one investigator assigned to doing nothing but viewing videos. JMO.
 
You make some good points about Lake Griffey vs. Lake Monroe. My only thoughts on it are that Lake Griffey is much more shallow than Lake Monroe. Last summer Lake Griffey actually dried up completely when we had a drought. Assuming the person/people responsible for her disappearance knew that, it would seem riskier to dump a body there in the long run for fear that it would be easier to find. It's a much smaller lake, too.

For what it's worth, I know Lake Griffey has already been checked by police.


Yeah, I don't think she is likely to be in Griffey - it seems like she would have been found already if so. But my comment was about how the person(s) responsible would be thinking. If this is premeditated and planned, then who knows what is possible. But if this is an OD coverup or a crime of passion, then it seems like Lake Monroe is too risky at 5am and too far from the scene to be worth it. The lake depths wouldn't be that important if you take away the ability to take a boat on the lake.
 
I believe LE only said that there's no one unknown on the video with Lauren. I don't think they have made any statements that confirm that the same man described by the witness was ever seen on video.

That is correct. I stated it incorrectly when I was trying to make a connection earlier today. (I think it's likely he's on the video at 2:51 though; seems that he and ZO are a team.)
 
Upthread someone asked if JR had provide DNA. The only thing that he has provided that I'm aware of is a statement and the non-LE polygraph results via his attorney.
 
@Berk13

As someone apparently very familiar with this area where LS was last seen, and the social environment. I have some questions for you.

1) Please describe what the range substances and activities would be involved in "Partying" typically at 5 North and Smallwood, or the building where ZO/AB lived which is in between, correct?

2) Do you know know for a fact that any of these people; CR/MB/JR/JW/ZO/AB/HT/LS used any substance other than Alcohol? If so, is it common knowledge who usually supplies?

3) Why do you think CR was attacked and why do you think that?

4) Why do you think those (apparently ZO/AB) who attacked CR were able to do so with apparent impunity?

5) Why is it that LS seemed to only be partying with guys? What is your take on that?

6) If you have knowledge of any or all of these people, who do you think there should be more focus on?
 
I definitely think this is a possibility, but the problem I have is the fact that the witness was getting off work at the time, and there's a giant digital clock on the corner, right above where she would have seen the exchange between LS and ?.

So if it's the 3:38 witness who has proof of when they left work, and couldn't miss the clock VS. the verbal statements of CR(Amnesia) / MB(Roomate of CR) / and what trickles of JR's statements apparently mostly to HT or LE
who are we to believe if this is the conflict? It would seem to make no sense that LE would discount an eyewitness over these other people's rather peculiar account of events.
 
I believe you are correct about almost everything you stated above. I bolded two things - the first being the 3:00 a.m. I believe police say the last time they have her on video is 2:51 a.m. Yes, I'm being nit-picky, but just wanted to make sure we listed the accurate time. Here's a link to the map and timeline: http://www.heraldtimesonline.com/pages/files/lauren_spierer/0616-Spierer-timeline-map.pdf

Second, in terms of a camera capturing the Mystery Man on camera, according to TG's report, the witness saw LS and Mystery Man at the corner of 10th & College. Unless they were underneath the arcade/breezeway of the 10th & College building, no cameras would have caught them at this location. If they were just on the sidewalk it is entirely possible there is no video evidence of what the witness saw, unfortunately.

Here's the link to TG's original story about it:
http://tonygatto.wordpress.com/2011...n-spierer-mystery-encounter-with-unknown-man/

Either there is another tape or a continuation of the 2:51 tape that was truncated and only part was released to the public. The news conference that I watched about a week ago stated that the last sigghting of LS on video was "around 3 AM." I know there is a video of LS at 2:51 but do not know if that is the one they are speaking of. I think the question was asked but the answer was the activity on the tape was around 3 AM. I don't think LE would guesstimate and say 3AM if it was 2:51 which is why I think it's on another tape, or on the same tape as it goes on for another 20 minutes or so of activity. If it is the same tape, they did not release the portion which shows the person/persons of interest and activity that led LE to believe that this was the beginning of the end for LS (based on what was seen) and the person/persons on the tape are known to LE and are being withheld from the public. BUT, the taped POI('s) know that he/they is/are on the tape. That is for sure. That's rather compelling evidence. What LE does with this POI in the near future should be interesting.

I do know that JW's car and apt/house has been searched twice. LE said he is/was cooperating. That was included in that news conference as well. Who else's apt and car was searched? Just sayin...

So this brings up another question/questions...

LE knows who's on the tape. They know whatever happened on that tape isn't good. I would imagine that LE has got this POI under their radar like a hawk. So, of my list of the 10 POI's, who has gone home and where to? Anyone in summer school? I can't imagine a person so close to this case as in on the video that implicates him/her in a crime wherein a girl is missing for over a month, goes home for the summer and doesn't have the FBI following his every move? He is being watched. The FBI must have a hold on him. Do we know where they all live? Anyone of them in nearby Indy? Anyone in summer school?

Where does JW live?

Where are you sweet Lauren? Which of these animals did this to you?
 
I think the strangest thing about that night is that she was the only girl partying with a bunch of guys. Usually, there are two girls involved to look out for one another. The fact she was alone that night is strange. I also feel like she and HT were not on the best of terms, whether it was because HT was tired of Lauren's behavior or something else, I don't know. She hasn't given off the vibe of a concerned friend by any means. That said, I don't think she was involved, but it's likely she knows what happened via JR.


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Either there is another tape or a continuation of the 2:51 tape that was truncated and only part was released to the public. The news conference that I watched about a week ago stated that the last sigghting of LS on video was "around 3 AM." I know there is a video of LS at 2:51 but do not know if that is the one they are speaking of. I think the question was asked but the answer was the activity on the tape was around 3 AM. I don't think LE would guesstimate and say 3AM if it was 2:51 which is why I think it's on another tape, or on the same tape as it goes on for another 20 minutes or so of activity. If it is the same tape, they did not release the portion which shows the person/persons of interest and activity that led LE to believe that this was the beginning of the end for LS (based on what was seen) and the person/persons on the tape are known to LE and are being withheld from the public. BUT, the taped POI('s) know that he/they is/are on the tape. That is for sure. That's rather compelling evidence. What LE does with this POI in the near future should be interesting.

I do know that JW's car and apt/house has been searched twice. LE said he is/was cooperating. That was included in that news conference as well. Who else's apt and car was searched? Just sayin...

So this brings up another question/questions...

LE knows who's on the tape. They know whatever happened on that tape isn't good. I would imagine that LE has got this POI under their radar like a hawk. So, of my list of the 10 POI's, who has gone home and where to? Anyone in summer school? I can't imagine a person so close to this case as in on the video that implicates him/her in a crime wherein a girl is missing for over a month, goes home for the summer and doesn't have the FBI following his every move? He is being watched. The FBI must have a hold on him. Do we know where they all live? Anyone of them in nearby Indy? Anyone in summer school?

Where does JW live?

Where are you sweet Lauren? Which of these animals did this to you?

I think JW is from NY like Lauren and HT. From what I've read, he has since returned following LS's disappearance.


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I believe LE only said that there's no one unknown on the video with Lauren. I don't think they have made any statements that confirm that the same man described by the witness was ever seen on video.



Are you referring to the 2:51 (I think?) time when they state that she was exiting the alley, or something else? If there's another video after this, then I'm unaware of it and would love the details. Thanks much!


ITA. It's so hard however, to understand why they haven't obtained and viewed ALL video by now. How many hard-core cases do they have in Bloomington? I'd think they'd have one investigator assigned to doing nothing but viewing videos. JMO.

See my last post re the tape and the press conference. Not sure if there are 2 tapes or the sighting was on the same tape as the 2:51 sighting but cut off from the public as to the activity after that. LE never specified if or not there was a second tape but they did say the activity that started things going south was about 3AM. Could be the same tape. Could be a different tape. Either way, the public is not privy to it. They're keeping that one close to the vest. That's the smoking gun IMO for now.
 
Does anyone know if JR's roommates are still in Bloomington for the summer (or if they were there when she disappeared?) I recall Northside (who hasn't posted in a while) saying that he walked by their place around midnight once just to check things out and see what it looked like in that area when it was dark, and he said that there were lights on in JR's townhouse. This was after JR went home to Michigan. If he had roommates who were still in town, they might fill in some of the 8, 9, and 10 spaces. The townhouse he lives in is a 5 bedroom, so I would assume he had 4 roommates during the school year.

From what I read elsewhere JR's roomates were gone for the summer and he had stayed back to party.
 
I think the strangest thing about that night is that she was the only girl partying with a bunch of guys. Usually, there are two girls involved to look out for one another. The fact she was alone that night is strange. I also feel like she and HT were not on the best of terms, whether it was because HT was tired of Lauren's behavior or something else, I don't know. She hasn't given off the vibe of a concerned friend by any means. That said, I don't think she was involved, but it's likely she knows what happened via JR.


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Yep, partying with all guys. Enough to make a boyfriend a bit jealous? just sayin...
 
So if it's the 3:38 witness who has proof of when they left work, and couldn't miss the clock VS. the verbal statements of CR(Amnesia) / MB(Roomate of CR) / and what trickles of JR's statements apparently mostly to HT or LE
who are we to believe if this is the conflict? It would seem to make no sense that LE would discount an eyewitness over these other people's rather peculiar account of events.

Maybe they didn't discount her account of what she saw, just the time she saw it. They're keeping a lot of things mum. I don't doubt this is something on the down low as well.
 
Yep, partying with all guys. Enough to make a boyfriend a bit jealous? just sayin...

He'd certainly have motive. Unless he was spotted on one of those cameras though, I'm more inclined to believe he's innocent. I just don't think he left while his roommate was asleep, killed Lauren, dumped her, and then came back, woke up at 8am and drove his roommate to class.

That said, he would be the only one in the right state of mind to drive somewhere that night....cause by all accounts he was sober.


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I think the strangest thing about that night is that she was the only girl partying with a bunch of guys. Usually, there are two girls involved to look out for one another. The fact she was alone that night is strange. I also feel like she and HT were not on the best of terms, whether it was because HT was tired of Lauren's behavior or something else, I don't know. She hasn't given off the vibe of a concerned friend by any means. That said, I don't think she was involved, but it's likely she knows what happened via JR.


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This is why I think she was flirting with one of these guys. I can understand her going back there (5 North) alone at the end of the night - running back with CR since he was apparently just punched. But she was partying with the boys earlier, apparently, and watching the game on TV. Many girls aren't even sports' fans......I have no idea if she was or not. I know that when I was in college, I'd sometimes endure having to do something I didn't enjoy (like watching basketball on TV) just to be with a guy I liked. Also, many girls would have had no problem hanging out with a bunch of guys alone (if there was one they really liked).
 
They never said one person. I also don't think that person is CR. I think CR and LS happened upon this person/persons on their way to CR's apt at the gravel lot. I think CR, after getting beat up once, went inside and went to bed. I discount CR.

On the other hand. I cannot discount the "waiters," that being possibly AB and someone else, caught on tape. Perhaps LE does include AB as being on video at some point and maybe it was when he threw her over his shoulder and she lost her purse/wristlet thing. But I don't think AB acted alone but am on the fence as to the witness description of time.

There were 2 people that apparently kicked the snot out of CR early that evening. One I believe was AB, the other with the lasy name beginning with O. All friends of JW. All knew LS was with CR. All knew where CR lived.

What happened in that gravel lot?


What is also interesting about this idea that AB showed up at the Gravel Lot as LS and CR exited the Alley is that CR was not further injured, MB says that LS was there... and apparently JR said LS was last with him. Why on earth would JR cover for AB? Why would MB cover for AB? Why wouldn't they all just explain that they never saw her after midnight. Except for CR... he could still just claim Amnesia. One possibility is that MB and JR simply agreed to cover for CR not knowing at all what happened. They may not have realized that she really did go missing when they made those statements and now are stuck with them.

Another thought. I keep wondering about how soon after LS and CR passed out of that Alley 2:51 with approximately 3 to 5 minutes more to get to CR's door that AA found LS's purse with keys inside right there outside of that Alley area where LE says there was "Activity" I just can't stop thining how AA happened to find this stuff just laying there while not seeing any people around or any noise, cars, etc... How could the timimg of their passage... Activity on the cam, loss of LS's purse and AA's find be so close together yet AA sees nothing but the purse? I still do not know from where AA was coming nor exactly where he was going.

@btown - I have another map request. Not only would I like to see the rough area that should be captured by that Alley exit cam next to the Gravel lot, i would also like to see the path that AA said he took. I don't recall if AA said he was alone? Does AA have a roommate? Who is it? Does AA or his Roommate have ties to Z0/AB or any of the others?

Now, if AA was there finding the purse at 3:00am... and AB or unk person had just been there slinging LS over his shoulder, while CR kept stumbling home... it just doesn't seem possible to me that AA could miss all of this. The time window is as narrow as 2 minutes. AA would have virtually had to teleport to the location at 3:00 to have missed that sort of "activity" If he were already in the parking lot getting out of a car before that, he and others in the car should have seen something. If he (AA) was in another apartment and was going from one to another, again that time window as small as 2 minutes again is made even smaller by the time it took him to walk from the first apartment to where he found the purse.

If that is even possible then, here is another possible twist on existing theories:
AB slings LS over his shoulder(motive unknown) as CR and LS exit the Alley, she looses purse/keys (I'm not sure if her bracelet was recovered?) CR continues to stumble home. AB follows with LS... then CR is already in his apt as AB/LS arrive... AB stays sort of in the background or even outside the door. Others are there and possibly JR... so they venture back out where perhaps AB is hanging around and joins them. Since AB's place is on the way back to Smallwood he offers to walk LS home, but is getting a charge out of this playful and tipsy(or more than tipsy) hottie. He then starts walking her home down N. College and she's falling all over and maybe hits her head a few times and is seriously injured but he doesn't realize it right away. They run into the 3:38 witness as this is happening... it's not clear to me which way the witness is going or which way this pair are headed. If it's AB perhaps he decides to take LS to his apt instead of Smallwood. In doing so perhaps she convulses and dies, how does he explain this situation to LE? It would look bad. So perhaps he then stashes the body and goes back to JR and tells him what happened. JR then calls DR to have him let AB into Smallwood - perhaps so that AB could put the body inside of LS/HT's apt. Now it seems AB had easy access to Smallwood earlier, but he may not have a key, others may need to let him in... Perhaps this was going to be DR. At this point only 2 people would know what happened JR and AB, and both could be convinced it was an accident that would point at the 2 of them. AB could have been more afraid because of his ethnicity that LE might be more inclined to pin it on him. So JR may have decided to let the trail go cold with him to keep things simpler. If LE knew about AB, AB could point the finger back at JR. So a pact is plausible. But this plan to get the body back to Smallwood didn't work out because AB needed some way to get in (or get LS in) without being noticed. At this point LS may have still been alive, and died in the pandemonium of trying to get her back into her apt. Now one way or the other AB is stuck and has to do something with her.

Please poke holes in that scenario. Thank You.
 
Can anyone think of another case, where someone claimed they were the last person to see a victim when they weren't? I am genuinely curious if this has happened before in a disappearance case.

EDIT: Now that I've re-read this, I should phrase it differently. :crazy:

I guess what I am after, is can anyone think of another case where someone has been dishonest about seeing a victim where it puts them in an awkward position. I am *not* saying that this is what JR did, I am just curious if this is something that has ever happened in another case, that someone can think of. Thanks.
 
For the record, I don't think JR claimed to be the last to see LS. He claimed to have seen her at 4:30 and no one else has admitted to seeing her after that time. JMO
 
Someone upthread commented about concrete stairs at 5 North. JR lived on the 4th floor. Here's a pic of stairs which are carpeted. I've wondered about a fall down the stairs myself.

http://currydevelopment.com/5north/5north_gallery_12.html

Thanks Jupiter812... Yes nicely carpeted. I noticed that the floor plans only went up to the 3rd floor and supposedly the 4th floor was even more luxurious. The units on the 3rd floor already had 3.5 baths. That's quite a lot for one guy... I wonder what the 4th floor is like? It's also a long way down from a window or balcony from there.
 
One possibility is that MB and JR simply agreed to cover for CR not knowing at all what happened. They may not have realized that she really did go missing when they made those statements and now are stuck with them.

I've thought about that, or something similar, too. But don't forget about the 4:15AM phone call. It doesn't make any sense that JR would continue the lie to the phone call in that scenario does it?
 
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