Human Remains (*cadaver) Detection (HRD) dog questions and answers **NO DISCUSSION**

[justamommy]

Could they have taken video of the cadaver dogs at work as evidence? I don't know how all of this works, so just a thought.

Posted this in the search warrant thread and thought I would come here to ask. TIA

 

[sarx]

Ah. Thank you grandmaj.

Where is the carpet in the evidence report, though, that indicates that was what was seized re: the HRD alerts(s)??
Confused. I need to do a little more research. Was that possibly redacted? Trying to catch up here.

Could they have taken video of the cadaver dogs at work as evidence? I don't know how all of this works, so just a thought.

Posted this in the search warrant thread and thought I would come here to ask. TIA

It is possible, but we aren't gonna see it.

 

[jjenny]

Why didn't police remove the carpet in the bedroom if that's where the dog hit?

 

[Curious Me]

Confused, somewhere in another thread they're saying CS, the Irwin attorney, says LE took a piece of carpet from the shed. Does anyone know if this is fact or rumor?

 

[Oriah]

Could they have taken video of the cadaver dogs at work as evidence? I don't know how all of this works, so just a thought.

Posted this in the search warrant thread and thought I would come here to ask. TIA

There might be video taken if an HRD alert or alerts were/are expected to be needed in the future for prosecution. Very common in certain situations.

 

[Tuffy]

Confused, somewhere in another thread they're saying CS, the Irwin attorney, says LE took a piece of carpet from the shed. Does anyone know if this is fact or rumor?

No they didn't take any carpet.

They looked at a roll of carpet from the garage, but left it there.

http://abcnews.go.com/US/baby-lisa-irwin-surveillance-footage-mystery-man/story?id=14795844&page=2

 

[Tuffy]

Dr. Edward David, a deputy chief medical examiner for the state of Maine and co-author of the "Cadaver Dog Handbook," said that when a body is left in one spot for several hours, cells are left behind. They continue to decompose and create an odor, giving the dog scents to detect.
He said that while trained dogs may fail to detect the smell of human decomposition about 30 percent of the time, they generally don't alert when nothing is there. One exception is when human waste is present.



Read more: http://www.timesunion.com/news/arti...missing-baby-s-home-2230163.php#ixzz1bebbEyiq

Really, dogs will alert to poo, and think it's human decomposition? How are those two confused? Even to my untrained human nose, it's not even close.

Who is this guy, Dr. Edward David? Is he well respected in the cadaver dog field?

 

[Curious Me]

No they didn't take any carpet.

http://abcnews.go.com/US/baby-lisa-irwin-surveillance-footage-mystery-man/story?id=14795844&page=2

Thank You, Tuffy. LE didn't take DB's bedroom carpet. :doh:
This case takes a village to keep the facts straight.

 

[Abby Normal]

So am I understanding right that a cadaver dog will NOT hit on blood that at one time belonged to a living being? Or they will?

 

[Oriah]

Really, dogs will alert to poo, and think it's human decomposition? How are those two confused? Even to my untrained human nose, it's not even close.

Who is this guy, Dr. Edward David? Is he well respected in the cadaver dog field?

No, a properly trained HRD dog should not alert on simple human excrement.

And moo, of course- but any trainer/handler/ that says so is not respected by me.

HRD dogs worldwide would be pretty darn confused...cuz there's a lot of poo in the world. The very rare exception would be if there were human remains intermingled with the excrement. (Yeah- please don't anyone ask to explain that further.)

 

[Oriah]

So am I understanding right that a cadaver dog will NOT hit on blood that at one time belonged to a living being? Or they will?

An HRD dog WILL alert on human blood.

 

[Abby Normal]

So they hit on decomposing humans AND blood that came from a living human being? In the two years we've lived here, we had a fall which resulted in stitches (head wound) as well as a bad bloody nose that occurred while I was in the shower (meaning I didn't get there quick enough). So at my house there are at least two spots on our floor that may get a "hit" by a cadaver dog even though everyone in our home is living?

 

[Oriah]

So they hit on decomposing humans AND blood that came from a living human being? In the two years we've lived here, we had a fall which resulted in stitches (head wound) as well as a bad bloody nose that occurred while I was in the shower (meaning I didn't get there quick enough). So at my house there are at least two spots on our floor that may get a "hit" by a cadaver dog even though everyone in our home is living?

Possibly. It would largely depend on what kind of surface the blood was deposited on.

For example, I too had an injury in the past year that produced a lot of blood inside a residence. Actually it was a trail from outside to inside, which may help explain even further.

In my situation; there was blood deposited on grass, then on dirt, then on cement, then on sealed hardwood floors, then on tile, then on a towel, then on stainless steel.

We cleaned everything up, of course- but certain surfaces retain HR scent particles (such as blood) much longer than others. The concrete, for example. Scrubbed it with bleach and can't see a thing. But one of our HRD dogs will still hit on it if we put him to work.

The tile? Scrubbed that too- but the grout retains the scent. He'll hit on that also. The sealed hardwood floors- no. The towel we threw away, so I've no idea, lol. If we hadn't thrown it away, I guarantee he'd be hitting on that. The stainless steel- no. But that's because it is a sink, and not a sealed stainless steel container.

Does that make any sense?

 

[Abby Normal]

Perfect sense. I am assuming carpet would be a more porous and hold the scent. That's why I think carpet is so gross- we can clean our hardwoods, but you can't *really* clean carpet. Our accidents, of course, were on carpet.

Anyway, that helps a lot. Sounds like the dogs are step one- give investigators an area to search more in depth and gather evidence from. Dogs are amazing

 

[Oriah]

Perfect sense. I am assuming carpet would be a more porous and hold the scent. That's why I think carpet is so gross- we can clean our hardwoods, but you can't *really* clean carpet. Our accidents, of course, were on carpet.

Anyway, that helps a lot. Sounds like the dogs are step one- give investigators an area to search more in depth and gather evidence from. Dogs are amazing

BBM:
Yep.

And of course they were, lol. What would Murphy's law be otherwise!?

And yep again.

ETA: should have added that the decomp scent (in the scenario I described above) was more aged by the fact that my trail of blood was left on the floor/surfaces for a period of time- because we were not immediately concerned with cleaning it up. Left it there to go to the ER. So that blood 'decomposed' for the next 6 hours. Make sense?

(and O/T but keep those clotting factors up Abby!)

 

[norest4thewicked]

An HRD dog WILL alert on human blood.

OK...I am very confused here. One of the big things that helped me believe what I do about this case is the comments by sarx here:

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=152263&page=14

Post # 341


Thanks everyone. I'm here to answer questions and happy to do so!

I will re-post it again, please feel free to copy this post and re-post it as new people come in, cuz I feel like I've said it a lot today.

Again, take it or leave it. I am verified, it by no means makes me perfect, but I've got a lot of years of knowledge, and it's not just from a study I found (sorry, getting a little snarky)

Here goes...

The dogs that came in are highly trained, highly certified and highly reliable.

The dogs were not hitting on something leftover by a previous owner. Their hits were in direct connection with something that happened recently.

The dogs were not hitting on biological matter from a living person or creature (including but not limited to urine, feces, spit, menstrual bleeding, blood from a cut, breast milk, pig roast matter etc)

How many dogs were used? We don't know. Just because we only heard about 1 means just that, it's all we heard about.

I think that about covers it.


BBM


I guess now I don't know what to believe?

 

[Abby Normal]

lol, no doubt.

And that makes perfect sense- the longer it sits, the stronger the scent left behind. Thanks for all your helps

 

[Oriah]

OK...I am very confused here. One of the big things that helped me believe what I do about this case is the comments by sarx here:

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=152263&page=14

Post # 341


Thanks everyone. I'm here to answer questions and happy to do so!

I will re-post it again, please feel free to copy this post and re-post it as new people come in, cuz I feel like I've said it a lot today.

Again, take it or leave it. I am verified, it by no means makes me perfect, but I've got a lot of years of knowledge, and it's not just from a study I found (sorry, getting a little snarky)

Here goes...

The dogs that came in are highly trained, highly certified and highly reliable.

The dogs were not hitting on something leftover by a previous owner. Their hits were in direct connection with something that happened recently.

The dogs were not hitting on biological matter from a living person or creature (including but not limited to urine, feces, spit, menstrual bleeding, blood from a cut, breast milk, pig roast matter etc)

How many dogs were used? We don't know. Just because we only heard about 1 means just that, it's all we heard about.

I think that about covers it.


BBM


I guess now I don't know what to believe?

I *think* you are probably confused because it appears sarx and I are contradicting one another. We are actually not, I don't think- we're just trying to explain this 'HRD" situation differently.

(sarx- please feel free to contradict...)

Human remains 'scent' for an HRD dog is composed of particles. They might be gas particles, they might be cellular particles, etc. But whatever kind of particle they are, they are scent particles that come from human decomp. Biological material that comes from a human who is alive, but then decomposes, is the same to an HRD dog as an entire deceased body.

So let's say you have a kidney removed; you take it home from the hospital and toss it in your backyard. The kidney started decomposing the moment it was removed from your living body. It is a human kidney- not a pig kidney, or a cow kidney, etc. An HRD dog, when brought to your backyard- should alert on it. The same is true of blood from a human- but as I mentioned earlier- it depends on the decomp of the blood, the amount present, the substrate containing it, the training of the dog, the scent discrimination of the dog, etc.

Menstrual blood discrimination is often tested either in or out of scent discrimination(depending upon what the dog is being trained for.) For example- my dog that will hit on the concrete where I lost about a pint of blood, lol- would not alert to a used sanitary pad sitting on the ground 5 feet away. Does that make any sense?

It is very, very difficult to explain what goes into scent discrimination. Sorry if I am confusing everyone!

 

[Oriah]

OK...I am very confused here. One of the big things that helped me believe what I do about this case is the comments by sarx here:

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=152263&page=14

Post # 341


Thanks everyone. I'm here to answer questions and happy to do so!

I will re-post it again, please feel free to copy this post and re-post it as new people come in, cuz I feel like I've said it a lot today.

Again, take it or leave it. I am verified, it by no means makes me perfect, but I've got a lot of years of knowledge, and it's not just from a study I found (sorry, getting a little snarky)

Here goes...

The dogs that came in are highly trained, highly certified and highly reliable.

The dogs were not hitting on something leftover by a previous owner. Their hits were in direct connection with something that happened recently.

The dogs were not hitting on biological matter from a living person or creature (including but not limited to urine, feces, spit, menstrual bleeding, blood from a cut, breast milk, pig roast matter etc)

How many dogs were used? We don't know. Just because we only heard about 1 means just that, it's all we heard about.

I think that about covers it.


BBM


I guess now I don't know what to believe?

I *think* you are probably confused because it appears sarx and I are contradicting one another. We are actually not, I don't think- we're just trying to explain this 'HRD" situation differently.

(sarx- please feel free to contradict...)

Human remains 'scent' for an HRD dog is composed of particles. They might be gas particles, they might be cellular particles, etc. But whatever kind of particle they are, they are scent particles that come from human decomposition. Biological material that comes from a human who is alive, but then decomposes, is the same to an HRD dog as an entire deceased body.

So let's say you have a kidney removed; you take it home from the hospital and toss it in your backyard. The kidney started decomposing the moment it was removed from your living body. It is a human kidney- not a pig kidney, or a cow kidney, etc. An HRD dog, when brought to your backyard- should alert on it. The same is true of blood from a human- but as I mentioned earlier- it depends on the decomp of the blood, the amount present, the substrate containing it, the training of the dog, the scent discrimination of the dog, etc.

Menstrual blood discrimination is often tested either in or out of scent discrimination (depending upon what the dog is being trained for.) For example- my dog that will hit on the concrete where I lost about a pint of blood, lol- would not alert to a used sanitary pad sitting on the ground 5 feet away. He has been trained to scent discriminate between the two. Does that make any sense?

It is very, very difficult to explain what goes into scent discrimination. Sorry if I am confusing everyone!

 

[MamaK]

Am I correct in that it would probably take "a lot" of blood/tissue, etc for the dog to hit if it was from a live person. For example, say I put my little one down for a nap and he happens to get a nose bleed. He manages to get a few drops of blood on his lovey. Would an HRD dog hit on the lovey? Or would it need to be something more substantial?