Still_Seek_Answers
Hope is our strength......love is our determinatio
We always appreciate help searching the databases, and we are always grateful when people give us links to possibles. Thank You so much for taking the time to care!!!
FL FL - GERARD SCHAEFER -- How Many Victims?
- Thread starter Shadow205
- Start date
We always appreciate help searching the databases, and we are always grateful when people give us links to possibles. Thank You so much for taking the time to care!!!
Still_Seek_Answers
Hope is our strength......love is our determinatio
Thank You so very much. We too are thankful for our parents never having to know many of the things we have learned.
Yes, I agree, we were always taught God would never give anyone a cross to heavy to carry....and everything about this has been a nightmare,but we know the answers are out there, and we will find it eventually.
Soulmagent
Well-Known Member
- Joined
- Aug 3, 2008
- Messages
- 9,196
- Reaction score
- 9,828
I think the first link you posted ,could be Rose Cole. I keep comparing pictures . Over and over. I Know others have said it too.I wont believe is it not her until they compare. DNA. I spent hours reading over namus yesterday and Namus has come along way. I hope it continues to improve.
Still_Seek_Answers
Hope is our strength......love is our determinatio
I am hoping you submitted your thoughts to LE so they could do a DNA comparison. Someday's it seems like for every person brought home,two more are lost but as long as caring people continue to find them and bring them home, then that is all that truly matters....
Still_Seek_Answers
Hope is our strength......love is our determinatio
Soulmagent,
I just went over and compared the pics your referred to....and I think you are right. She seems to have the same mouth features, as well as those same beautiful eyes. So I hope someone has submitted that thought to LE, and if they have not let me know, cause heck I'm sure not shy, and I'll send it to them with no hesitation. Add to that the fact that I can relate to this family, that is alot of years to have to wait to bring someone home.
I just went over and compared the pics your referred to....and I think you are right. She seems to have the same mouth features, as well as those same beautiful eyes. So I hope someone has submitted that thought to LE, and if they have not let me know, cause heck I'm sure not shy, and I'll send it to them with no hesitation. Add to that the fact that I can relate to this family, that is alot of years to have to wait to bring someone home.
mysteriew
A diamond in process
- Joined
- Jul 22, 2004
- Messages
- 23,811
- Reaction score
- 792
Still have you tried mapping Schaefer's murders according to his address's at the time of the murders?
What I am thinking of is to assign each known and suspected murder a color. Then to place markers of that color on a map of where he was living, where he was thought to have abducted and where he was thought to have disposed of the body. You could play with the colors a little to tweak it. Maybe assigning a color to each murder, then change it and assigning every murder committed when he was living at a particular address one color.
I think this might give some indicators on how far from home he was comfortable with working. Then that might give you some indicators on how far to expect to look. It wouldn't be fool proof of course, cause as humans we all change patterns of course. But I think that usually we all tend to do most of our activities in areas we are comfortable with. And with serial killers, even more so. If they find a pattern that works, that allows them to continue they tend to repeat that pattern.
Example, if Schaefer lived on Elm street one time, he abducted two streets away, and disposed of the body a mile away, then if other patterns pretty much follow this one you could expect that he would dispose in the same community he lived in. But if he abducted one county away from his home, disposed of the remains two counties away then you could expect a much larger target area. But you would still know to look in the same general area.
See I have a little trouble accepting that he transported her too far either living or dead. It does happen. But from the time that he abducted until he actually dumped the body was the most dangerous times for him. It is when if he is stopped for the most innocent reason, he would be at the highest risk of being caught. A car accident, a traffic stop or even being stopped for a traffic jam could result in his being caught. So how comfortable was he with that risk?
What I am thinking of is to assign each known and suspected murder a color. Then to place markers of that color on a map of where he was living, where he was thought to have abducted and where he was thought to have disposed of the body. You could play with the colors a little to tweak it. Maybe assigning a color to each murder, then change it and assigning every murder committed when he was living at a particular address one color.
I think this might give some indicators on how far from home he was comfortable with working. Then that might give you some indicators on how far to expect to look. It wouldn't be fool proof of course, cause as humans we all change patterns of course. But I think that usually we all tend to do most of our activities in areas we are comfortable with. And with serial killers, even more so. If they find a pattern that works, that allows them to continue they tend to repeat that pattern.
Example, if Schaefer lived on Elm street one time, he abducted two streets away, and disposed of the body a mile away, then if other patterns pretty much follow this one you could expect that he would dispose in the same community he lived in. But if he abducted one county away from his home, disposed of the remains two counties away then you could expect a much larger target area. But you would still know to look in the same general area.
See I have a little trouble accepting that he transported her too far either living or dead. It does happen. But from the time that he abducted until he actually dumped the body was the most dangerous times for him. It is when if he is stopped for the most innocent reason, he would be at the highest risk of being caught. A car accident, a traffic stop or even being stopped for a traffic jam could result in his being caught. So how comfortable was he with that risk?
Still_Seek_Answers
Hope is our strength......love is our determinatio
That is a god idea. Most serial killers tend to have what they consider a "hunting ground" and they tend to make that area outside of the area they actually live in. They try to keep the area they live in as their "safe zone". I don't think Schaefer followed this pattern specifically but he may have followed some variation of it. The one thing that made him get away with his crime for so long was his habit of choosing runaways.Two of the girls he killed had hitch hiked into Florida from Iowa. I think, and I maybe mistaken, but I think most all of his victims were abducted in Broward County. His most well known burial sites were Hutchinson Island and Ocala National Forest. However as well as he knew Broward county, pretty much any spot he could find where he could hang the girls, and have privacy to torture them worked. I am not knocking your idea.....actually I am going to give it a try...there could very possibly be a method to his madness that has been overlooked. Thank You for the suggestion, and I'll make sure and post how it looks once all laid out.
Still_Seek_Answers
Hope is our strength......love is our determinatio
I REALLY like this part of your idea. Even though he usually used his police cruiser to abduct the girls, he still had a degree of risk of getting caught.He could hardly be seen driving around with young girls, and yet never actually bring them in to be charged......plus he had to stay close enough to answer his radio calls, which is what saved the lives of the two girls that got away.....you have a very sound theory.......
mysteriew
A diamond in process
- Joined
- Jul 22, 2004
- Messages
- 23,811
- Reaction score
- 792
Play with how you use the colored pins too. Using different variations causes you to look at it different ways. Like separate colors for each murder on one map, then separate it so there is one color for all the murders he committed while living at each address on another map.
But consistently make sure that you use his address, his abduct site and his dump site. You might also want to add in his work site too.
But consistently make sure that you use his address, his abduct site and his dump site. You might also want to add in his work site too.
Still_Seek_Answers
Hope is our strength......love is our determinatio
ok, I just sent my son done to the Dollar Store to buy me colored pins, and I talked to his geography teacher who is going to print me a detailed map of Florida. To answer your questions.....to the best of my knowledge, Schaefer has never been connected to any murders outside of Florida, though it was rumored that Detectives from other states did wish to question him on missing girls. He stayed close to Broward County, (which he lived in) and Martin County (which he worked in)but he has always been the lead suspect of two women from Pinellas county. I will double check my info on that.To answer your second question, nobody knows how many people he actually killed.....he would confess to murders in the short stories he wrote....then he would recant. While in prison he bragged the count was closer to 100, then filed a lawsuit when someone suggested the number was closer to 30.....he objected to being referred to as a serial killer. He was only ever convicted of two murders ( Susan Place and Georgia Jessup). Not all of the remains of his victims have been found. So I will use the info I have that I know is correct. I will use one color for his suspected victims, a different color for his confirmed victims, and see if I can get any type of location zone on him....It has been almost 40 years....many people have tried many things,so rather or not this works....and it sounds solid, so it just might give us a "body Zone"...the only time lost is the time spent not looking, so I will start on it tomorrow.
mysteriew
A diamond in process
- Joined
- Jul 22, 2004
- Messages
- 23,811
- Reaction score
- 792
In the area in which you lived as a child, how many went missing who were later thought to be his victims? Were they all found?
I have a reason for asking. He was a frequent visitor to your home. It is known that some SK's will return to the dump site to "relive" the crime. I am just wondering about the possibility that while he was visiting you, if perhaps he passed by a turn off to where some remains were dumped, or within easy location of a body.
Or to take it one step further, your home could have become part of a comfort zone.
I have a reason for asking. He was a frequent visitor to your home. It is known that some SK's will return to the dump site to "relive" the crime. I am just wondering about the possibility that while he was visiting you, if perhaps he passed by a turn off to where some remains were dumped, or within easy location of a body.
Or to take it one step further, your home could have become part of a comfort zone.
Still_Seek_Answers
Hope is our strength......love is our determinatio
The scrapbook my mother made of girls who went missing around the same time,with similar appearance as my sister contains about 15-20 girls. Most of them are "suspected Schaefer" victims, but I am not sure how many of them lived close to us.I am sure he enjoyed visiting after her disappearance for two reasons...(1) to see if they had any suspects....(2) to taunt my parents, with horror stories of all the different things that happen to missing girls...I do know he went back to the crime scenes to dig up the bodies and have sex with them....Pompano Beach has grown up so much since we lived there. At the time we lived there we lived right off one of the main thru fares....we lived on SW 8th St...and he lived in Ft.lauderdale...so I need to do some research, and get his moms address...cause the house his GF lived in at that time, was in a huge housing project....way to much traffic and no trees to hang anybody....so most probably one of the yet undeveloped areas between our house and lauderdale.....a 10-15 mile base area....roughly....also explains why he brought her books back to that trash can, he was driving right by it to come to our house.....and added to the "run away" theory.
Right now I wish I had been older then...important things can go by a kid.....so much I can't recall.....but I can work on what I do.....
Still_Seek_Answers
Hope is our strength......love is our determinatio
-17-year-old Susan Place and 16-year-old Georgia Jessup had vanished from Fort
Lauderdale.On April 1, 1973, hikers found human bones near Blind Creek, on Hutchinson Island.
Bonadies' remains were found in the subdivision of Boca Del Mar
which was under construction at the time in Boca Raton, FL in January 1978.
21-year-old Nancy Leichner and 20-year-old Pamela Nater, Pinellas
County residents who vanished on a 1966 picnic in the Ocala National Forest.
19-year-old Iowa residents Collette Goodenough and
Barbara Ann Wilcox left Biloxi, Mississippi, hitchhiking to Florida.
Skeletal
remains of both victims were found at Port Saint Lucie in January 1977,
Briscolina and Elsie Lina Farmer were added to the missing list Farmers skeletal remains were found on January 17, 1973 (eight days after Schaefer went to jail), at
a construction site near Plantation High School. Briscolina was found on February 15, 200 yards
away. I doubt I will ever forget these two....the caption when they were found read.....Don't worry she said,now she and friend are dead. If ya saw the video reenactment, these are the girls the scrapbook shows before you actually start the video.
AS you can see....I am not so sure he picked locations by location, so much as by privacy.....he did not mind the risk, as much as he needed the "what the heck ever" that serial killers get from being able to take their time...but once I get it all pinned out....I will let ya know how it looks...the hard part will be finding his pick up zone...since several of his kils were completed before anyone knew they were missing...
Lauderdale.On April 1, 1973, hikers found human bones near Blind Creek, on Hutchinson Island.
Bonadies' remains were found in the subdivision of Boca Del Mar
which was under construction at the time in Boca Raton, FL in January 1978.
21-year-old Nancy Leichner and 20-year-old Pamela Nater, Pinellas
County residents who vanished on a 1966 picnic in the Ocala National Forest.
19-year-old Iowa residents Collette Goodenough and
Barbara Ann Wilcox left Biloxi, Mississippi, hitchhiking to Florida.
Skeletal
remains of both victims were found at Port Saint Lucie in January 1977,
Briscolina and Elsie Lina Farmer were added to the missing list Farmers skeletal remains were found on January 17, 1973 (eight days after Schaefer went to jail), at
a construction site near Plantation High School. Briscolina was found on February 15, 200 yards
away. I doubt I will ever forget these two....the caption when they were found read.....Don't worry she said,now she and friend are dead. If ya saw the video reenactment, these are the girls the scrapbook shows before you actually start the video.
AS you can see....I am not so sure he picked locations by location, so much as by privacy.....he did not mind the risk, as much as he needed the "what the heck ever" that serial killers get from being able to take their time...but once I get it all pinned out....I will let ya know how it looks...the hard part will be finding his pick up zone...since several of his kils were completed before anyone knew they were missing...
Still_Seek_Answers
Hope is our strength......love is our determinatio
Honestly, my mother kind of put it together before his arrest....nobody listened,after all she was just an uneducated nobody from the hills of WV, she did not understand...etc...she kept telling police to look at her scrapbook, all the local girls going missing were similar in appearance...long straight brown hair...facial features all similar....she did not connect it to Schaefer, but she connected it to a hunter, not a random killer....both of our parents went into what I call burnout....my father was seldom seen sober, alcohol became his safe place,and he crawled into a bottle and stayed there....my mother had one goal...get her remaining kids "home" and out of danger...she did agree to take us back the next fall....and we did return, but we were not even allowed to go to school....we sat out a entire year, she could not risk it, losing another child. When Schaefer was arrested my Mom made several attempts to get them to investigate Schaefers link to my family, these requests fell on deaf ears, and no link was made till a Few years ago when Brother James took over the search. He has kicked down the doors so to speak...and Debbie is now considered a Schaefer victim......My mother managed to raise the 3 of us who were left at home, with no help from my father before his death, to give him credit where credit is due....he searched for Debbie everyday.....somedays Mom would just get this look on her face...and we'd ask her what was wrong.....nothing was always her reply...but we all knew.....that look meant she was in Debbie place....and it haunted her till the day she died....she was never at peace....but no, to my knowledge they never saw or spoke to Schaefer after his arrest..my mother usually just said, if I ever get near him I will cut his heart out....and she very much meant it, those were not just words......my mother believed in "old time" justice...so it was probably for the best, that she returned to WV that year
mysteriew
A diamond in process
- Joined
- Jul 22, 2004
- Messages
- 23,811
- Reaction score
- 792
A map is going to be interesting. I'm not real familar with the area so I can't read all of them. But what I do see is that he seems like an hunter. Yet he wasn't above hunting in his own home grounds, as he took two from near his home. He is also confident, taking two at one time. He hunted as much as 4-5 hours away, but his dump sites will be relatively close (1/2- 1 hour or so) to the abduction site. Were the disposal sites near the bondage sites?
Your sister would have been an anomaly for him. First he had an aquaintanship with her. Not with the others. Second she was a single, and he seemed to like to abduct doubles. So yes, there might have been changes in some of the MO on her. Third she was younger then his usual age range that I am seeing so far. Still it has happened before that an SK will have one younger than the usual.
As a hunter he would be looking for several things. Opportunity....the girls/women would need to be in a situation that he could get to them without a lot of close witnesses. They would need to appeal to him. He would need to have the time for the hunt, activity and disposal. (LE schedules would be ideal for that, in that he would have odd days and hours off. eg he might get off work at 6:30 am on wed and not be due to report back to work till midnight on fri.)
bessie
Verified Insider
- Joined
- Aug 19, 2008
- Messages
- 31,771
- Reaction score
- 1,635
Don't forget Trotter and Wells, the two known victims who miraculously survived and provided key testimony at his trial. He "befriended" them when he picked them up hitchhiking in Stuart, FL. (After promising them a trip to the beach, he picked up the girls the next day and brought them to the Hutchinson Island swamp where he left them tied up and nearly hanging from a tree.)
I like the idea of tracking his footsteps on a map. You never know, a pattern might develop. He seemed to kill so randomly, though, that I'm not sure you'll find one. He also travelled rather extensively, as far away as Europe and Africa, and roamed the US for several months with a travelling vocal group.
In the letters to SL published in Killer Fiction, GS boasted that he didn't follow one MO, and that he used a variety of means to dispose of his victims, reminding SL that he had a fishing boat. I think he was telling the truth.
bessie
Verified Insider
- Joined
- Aug 19, 2008
- Messages
- 31,771
- Reaction score
- 1,635
respectfully bolded by me
But she wasn't really, mysteriew. Bonadies was a childhood friend. Belinda Hutchens was a woman he knew, though we can't be sure how well or for how long. She was last seen getting in his car when he picked her up for a date. I can't recall all of the suspected victims right now, but there were others with whom he had a prior relationship. I do agree that his LE job afforded him flexibility, and a means to accost his victims under the guise of a police officer upholding the law. I don't think Trotter and Wells were the only hitchhikers he accosted.
mysteriew
A diamond in process
- Joined
- Jul 22, 2004
- Messages
- 23,811
- Reaction score
- 792
Don't forget Trotter and Wells, the two known victims who miraculously survived and provided key testimony at his trial. He "befriended" them when he picked them up hitchhiking in Stuart, FL. (After promising them a trip to the beach, he picked up the girls the next day and brought them to the Hutchinson Island swamp where he left them tied up and nearly hanging from a tree.)
I like the idea of tracking his footsteps on a map. You never know, a pattern might develop. He seemed to kill so randomly, though, that I'm not sure you'll find one. He also travelled rather extensively, as far away as Europe and Africa, and roamed the US for several months with a travelling vocal group.
In the letters to SL published in Killer Fiction, GS boasted that he didn't follow one MO, and that he used a variety of means to dispose of his victims, reminding SL that he had a fishing boat. I think he was telling the truth.
BBM
I was wondering how he was managing to abduct two at at time without attracting attention, and managing to keep them under control until he was away from people. It sounds like he used the "friendly, helpful" ruse rather than a blitz attack. If he could at least get them in his car, he could most likely control them until he got someplace isolated.
If we can just map the Florida murders, it will be a start. We know those will be in the same time period as Debbie's abduction so the MO's should be somewhat similar.