FL FL - GERARD SCHAEFER -- How Many Victims?

[mysteriew]

respectfully bolded by me

But she wasn't really, mysteriew. Bonadies was a childhood friend. Belinda Hutchens was a woman he knew, though we can't be sure how well or for how long. She was last seen getting in his car when he picked her up for a date. I can't recall all of the suspected victims right now, but there were others with whom he had a prior relationship. I do agree that his LE job afforded him flexibility, and a means to accost his victims under the guise of a police officer upholding the law. I don't think Trotter and Wells were the only hitchhikers he accosted.

He is more opportunistic than I thought.

From the link in Still"s OP it looks like there were two others from Pompano Beach?

Schaefer, a one-time Martin
County police deputy, had been linked to the deaths of 20 or more girls
and young women between 1969 and 1972, including at least two other
girls from Pompano Beach. His victims ranged in age from 9 to 25
http://newsgroups.derkeiler.com/Archive/Alt/alt.true-crime/2005-08/msg00659.html

And that quote also mentions at least one younger than Debbie.

 

[bessie]

Two young 9 year-olds. According to GS he was going through an Albert Fish phase.

 

[mysteriew]

Yeah I just found info on those

A better case exists for Schaefer’s involvement in the murders of 9-year-old Peggy Rahn and 8-year-old Wendy Stevenson, in Pompano Beach. Both vanished from the beach on December 29, 1970.
http://www.trutv.com/library/crime/serial_killers/predators/gerard_schaefer/6.html

Warning, you don't want to read the rest of the quote. It was obviously given for it's shock value.

 

[Oriah]

Don't forget Trotter and Wells, the two known victims who miraculously survived and provided key testimony at his trial. He "befriended" them when he picked them up hitchhiking in Stuart, FL. (After promising them a trip to the beach, he picked up the girls the next day and brought them to the Hutchinson Island swamp where he left them tied up and nearly hanging from a tree.)

I like the idea of tracking his footsteps on a map. You never know, a pattern might develop. He seemed to kill so randomly, though, that I'm not sure you'll find one. He also travelled rather extensively, as far away as Europe and Africa, and roamed the US for several months with a travelling vocal group.

In the letters to SL published in Killer Fiction, GS boasted that he didn't follow one MO, and that he used a variety of means to dispose of his victims, reminding SL that he had a fishing boat. I think he was telling the truth.

bessie, your post made me think of something. Charter captains. I've a friend who used to be a delivery captain way back when- Stuart, Port St Lucie, Hutchinson, and all along the FL intercoastal waterway and Atlantic.
Maybe we should pin a map using waterways as well? :waitasec:

 

[Still_Seek_Answers]

Don't forget Trotter and Wells, the two known victims who miraculously survived and provided key testimony at his trial. He "befriended" them when he picked them up hitchhiking in Stuart, FL. (After promising them a trip to the beach, he picked up the girls the next day and brought them to the Hutchinson Island swamp where he left them tied up and nearly hanging from a tree.)

I could never forget those two, they are my hero's...took a lot of courage to do what they did.

So far from what I have come up with,he told the truth in KF,cause all I have is a mess on a map. No kind of pattern at all, girls not disposed of the same way, all in common is that he either left the noose on or removed their heads.

I like the idea of tracking his footsteps on a map. You never know, a pattern might develop. He seemed to kill so randomly, though, that I'm not sure you'll find one. He also travelled rather extensively, as far away as Europe and Africa, and roamed the US for several months with a travelling vocal group.

There isn't even similar distances on the abductions, it is almost as if he just happened upon his victims, so not wanting to miss the chance he just grabbed them and ran.


In the letters to SL published in Killer Fiction, GS boasted that he didn't follow one MO, and that he used a variety of means to dispose of his victims, reminding SL that he had a fishing boat. I think he was telling the truth.

I am beginning to think this man just drove around with rope in the trunk of his car. There is no clear angle, no path, not even a certain time of day.He was profiled as a disorganized killer, with organized tendencies,which was why he disposed of the bodies instead of leaving them hanging.He did not follow any set MO, not in his torture, nor his abductions. I truly think the higher the risk of getting caught, the more of the thrill for him.He liked the danger. that was half of the high he got......This man was so far beyond just evil....

 

[Still_Seek_Answers]

A map is going to be interesting. I'm not real familar with the area so I can't read all of them. But what I do see is that he seems like an hunter. Yet he wasn't above hunting in his own home grounds, as he took two from near his home. He is also confident, taking two at one time. He hunted as much as 4-5 hours away, but his dump sites will be relatively close (1/2- 1 hour or so) to the abduction site. Were the disposal sites near the bondage sites?

That seems to be his only clear pattern, without knowing exactly where he picked up most of his victims up at, which he had already figured , that is what allowed him to be such an effective hunter, he disposed of the bodies close to his kill site.

Your sister would have been an anomaly for him. First he had an aquaintanship with her.

Several of his victims were known to him,...actually he did not start abducting victims not known to him until his confidence was higher. Bonadies was his neighbor, and Hallock he dated, Hutchions was a cocktail waitress, they may have dated also, even Susan Place and Georgia Jessup, willingly left their house with him, he used a fake name, Jerry Sheppard, but he appears to have been fond of selecting his victims from those known to him
Not with the others. Second she was a single, and he seemed to like to abduct doubles.

I actually think she may have been his last single, for after her they all seem to be doubles.

So yes, there might have been changes in some of the MO on her. Third she was younger then his usual age range that I am seeing so far.

Mary Briscolina and Elsie Farmer were 14 years old, and my sister was not your typical 13 year old, her measurements were 36-26-34, so most people thought her older than 13, and she was not his youngest...


Still it has happened before that an SK will have one younger than the usual.

A better case exists for Schaefer’s involvement in the murders of 9-year-old Peggy Rahn and 8-year-old Wendy Stevenson, in Pompano Beach. Both vanished from the beach on December 29, 1970.
“Peggy & Wendy just happened along at a time when I was curious about [1930s cannibal Albert] Fish’s craving for the flesh of young girls....I assure you these girls were not molested sexually. I found both of them very satisfactory, particularly with sautéed onions and peppers.”

As a hunter he would be looking for several things. Opportunity....the girls/women would need to be in a situation that he could get to them without a lot of close witnesses

He did not have to worry a lot about witnesses, that was where his police vehicle came in, who really stops and thinks anything might be wrong when you see someone pulled over, or when you see a patrol car pulled up to somebody?

They would need to appeal to him. He would need to have the time for the hunt, activity and disposal.

That seems to be his one clear pattern, he disposed of all the bodies close to where he hung and tortured them

(LE schedules would be ideal for that, in that he would have odd days and hours off. eg he might get off work at 6:30 am on wed and not be due to report back to work till midnight on fri.)

That was why his need for a job in LE was so high, it let him be in control, as well as allowed him to hunt.

 

[Still_Seek_Answers]

In the letters to SL published in Killer Fiction, GS boasted that he didn't follow one MO, and that he used a variety of means to dispose of his victims, reminding SL that he had a fishing boat. I think he was telling the truth.

In the one video I posted where he is reading one of his "stories" titled cut bait..he talks about cutting up two girls under a pier, and feeding them to the sharks.I was not aware of the boat factor, this could well explain why many of his victims are still not located, how many of them did he feed to the sharks I wonder.....

 

[Still_Seek_Answers]

BBM

I was wondering how he was managing to abduct two at at time without attracting attention, and managing to keep them under control until he was away from people. It sounds like he used the "friendly, helpful" ruse rather than a blitz attack. If he could at least get them in his car, he could most likely control them until he got someplace isolated.

If we can just map the Florida murders, it will be a start. We know those will be in the same time period as Debbie's abduction so the MO's should be somewhat similar.

Debbie was actually closer to the end of his trail of terror than to the beginning.She vanished February 1972, his first two victims were in 1966 and he was caught after Trotter and Wells abduction early 1973.,then even though caught, while out on bail he killed Briscolina and Farmer. He did not even really have a clear time span between murders, it is almost as if when ever the chance became open....he just grabbed the girls and ran.....and somehow he got the last two without having a police cruiser.

 

[Still_Seek_Answers]

He is more opportunistic than I thought.

From the link in Still"s OP it looks like there were two others from Pompano Beach?



And that quote also mentions at least one younger than Debbie.

yes, I mentioned them in the post earlier, the two girls he claimed to have eaten, and to date no remains of them have been found....

 

[Still_Seek_Answers]

bessie, your post made me think of something. Charter captains. I've a friend who used to be a delivery captain way back when- Stuart, Port St Lucie, Hutchinson, and all along the FL intercoastal waterway and Atlantic.
Maybe we should pin a map using waterways as well? :waitasec:

Oddly, your post makes me think of something else......he kept threatening his last two attempted victims that he could sell them into white slavery. I do remember the police warning my parents that often young girls were abducted and sold....maybe that is why so many of his victims were never found. While I really can't see him missing a chance to have his fun, I would not be surprised to learn that he sold some of them, and that is a really chilling thought. With a boat he could have gotten rid of remains at sea.....or sold them....the thought of my sister ....young....terrified.....and mostly alone with him has always been to much to take....but the thought of him disposing of her at sea....insuring that we could never bring her home......

 

[mysteriew]

Yeah I did a little more reading last night.

Part of the time he hunted up to 4 hrs away. He likely wouldn't have had his cruiser there, so not all his abductions involved a cruiser. I think the crusier was just one of his phases that he found convenient sometimes. While the crusier would have inspired more confidence in victims and witnesses, there were drawbacks there too. He would have had greater accountability over his time and his location. And he could be ordered to make calls at any point. I tend to think that his use of the cruiser was more like he found an opportunity while he was driving the crusier, and he took advantage of it.

One thing about Schaefer. I don't think what he said could always be trusted, even when he was supposedly admitting to something. I think he admitted to things when he thought it would be useful to him or when he wanted the shock value. I think that he would sometimes lie and claim things he hadn't done or only wished he had done.

As far as canabalism, even then there would be remains. Bones are easier to dispose of, but they do have to be disposed of somehow. Also I wonder how/where he would have "cooked" them. He lived with someone.

 

[Still_Seek_Answers]

Why was Gerard john Schaefer an organized offender?
In: Uncategorized [Edit categories]


Gerard John Schaefer was a disorganized killer because he selected his victims at random, and had no real plan on how he would kill. He did show signs of being an organized offender because he was very smart and had a good job as a police officer, but during one of his attempts he tied up two girls in the woods and got called away. The girls got loose and went to the nearest station (which was his) and he was fired (he was also fired from being a teacher for inappropriate behavior). The fact that the closest station to the place that he tied up the girls also shows that he was disorganized and selecting victims at random.


Read more: http://wiki.answers.com/Q/Why_was_Gerard_john_Schaefer_an_organized_offender#ixzz1jvdGtCNy


Read more: http://wiki.answers.com/Q/Why_was_Gerard_john_Schaefer_an_organized_offender#ixzz1jvcziiev

 

[Still_Seek_Answers]

Yeah I did a little more reading last night.

Part of the time he hunted up to 4 hrs away. He likely wouldn't have had his cruiser there, so not all his abductions involved a cruiser. I think the crusier was just one of his phases that he found convenient sometimes. While the crusier would have inspired more confidence in victims and witnesses, there were drawbacks there too. He would have had greater accountability over his time and his location. And he could be ordered to make calls at any point. I tend to think that his use of the cruiser was more like he found an opportunity while he was driving the crusier, and he took advantage of it.

One thing about Schaefer. I don't think what he said could always be trusted, even when he was supposedly admitting to something. I think he admitted to things when he thought it would be useful to him or when he wanted the shock value. I think that he would sometimes lie and claim things he hadn't done or only wished he had done.

As far as canabalism, even then there would be remains. Bones are easier to dispose of, but they do have to be disposed of somehow. Also I wonder how/where he would have "cooked" them. He lived with someone.

I agree, partly because I need to think my sister died quickly and with little pain involved ( please Dear God, don't let her have suffered) but also because he had this tendency to try to make him self appear bigger than he was.

 

[mysteriew]

Why was Gerard john Schaefer an organized offender?
In: Uncategorized [Edit categories]


Gerard John Schaefer was a disorganized killer because he selected his victims at random, and had no real plan on how he would kill. He did show signs of being an organized offender because he was very smart and had a good job as a police officer, but during one of his attempts he tied up two girls in the woods and got called away. The girls got loose and went to the nearest station (which was his) and he was fired (he was also fired from being a teacher for inappropriate behavior). The fact that the closest station to the place that he tied up the girls also shows that he was disorganized and selecting victims at random.


Read more: http://wiki.answers.com/Q/Why_was_Gerard_john_Schaefer_an_organized_offender#ixzz1jvdGtCNy


Read more: http://wiki.answers.com/Q/Why_was_Gerard_john_Schaefer_an_organized_offender#ixzz1jvcziiev

Schaefer very possibly read about serial killers. He knew his fantasies his interests and he knew what he did and had a self interest in not going to prison. And he had access, he was a police officer so he possibly had access to textbooks. He may have set out to beat the classifications. He did show signs of being both organized and disorganized. He later bragged about having used a variety of disposal methods.

 

[mysteriew]

I agree, partly because I need to think my sister died quickly and with little pain involved ( please Dear God, don't let her have suffered) but also because he had this tendency to try to make him self appear bigger than he was.

He wasn't known for holding his victims long term was he?

One question I want to ask, but I do find it difficult to ask of a family member.

 

[Still_Seek_Answers]

Schaefer very possibly read about serial killers. He knew his fantasies his interests and he knew what he did and had a self interest in not going to prison. And he had access, he was a police officer so he possibly had access to textbooks. He may have set out to beat the classifications. He did show signs of being both organized and disorganized. He later bragged about having used a variety of disposal methods.

Actually, unless someone has changed it recently, Schaefer was Florida's first recognized serial killer. At the time of his actual crimes, little was written or known about serial killers, it was one of the things that made him unique.
Also, I spoke with Brother James today,(as I have always stated,he is the one that kicked down the door and got Debbie's case properly classified)he reminded me that when Schaefer first started coming to our house,he used the name Jerry Shepard, and not John as I previously stated.(sorry)Apparently Jerry Shepard was 1 of about 5 AKAs that Schaefer used.

 

[Still_Seek_Answers]

He wasn't known for holding his victims long term was he?

One question I want to ask, but I do find it difficult to ask of a family member.

You can feel free to ask me anything you wish, when I find it getting to painful to remember, I go to my Debbie place.....and I remember that she loved hanging upside down from tree branch's....I remember how her hair would almost touch the ground....she wanted to be an acrobat....I remember that she would pick up my baby sister and dance all around with her, and how they both laughed. and I remember how as a big sister she'd always quiet my fears at bedtime, I used to be terribly scared of the dark....but she'd remind me I was not alone, so no need to fear....I simply go back to the things Gerard Schaefer could not take from me....all of us except my baby sister have clear vivid memory's of her...and we always make sure our baby sister...who hunts for answers as hard as anybody could...has her memory's thru us........

To answer your question, Schaefer is not known for keeping his victims for days, however, since he did tie Trotter and Wells up, then go to answer a radio call, one has to wonder how many girls he had tied up alone and left them there until he could get back to them...also in some of his stories he talks of torturing girls all night....to me that is a very long time....that however is jmo....compared to the days some serial killers keep victims....no that is not a long time....

 

[bessie]

Yeah I did a little more reading last night.

Part of the time he hunted up to 4 hrs away. He likely wouldn't have had his cruiser there, so not all his abductions involved a cruiser. I think the crusier was just one of his phases that he found convenient sometimes. While the crusier would have inspired more confidence in victims and witnesses, there were drawbacks there too. He would have had greater accountability over his time and his location. And he could be ordered to make calls at any point. I tend to think that his use of the cruiser was more like he found an opportunity while he was driving the crusier, and he took advantage of it.

I don't know...judging from the way he threatened Trotter and Wells, picking them up and telling them hitchhiking was illegal in Florida, I think he probably got a charge out of using his badge and cruiser to frighten women and worse. His career in LE lasted less than a year, though, and came at the end of his career as a killer. (He graduated from the police academy in December, 1971, and was arrested for the murders of Place and Jessup in October, 1972.) Prior to 1972, he would've used other means to abduct his victims, and I think he was probably creative and used a variety of ruses. In Debbie's case, the poor child would have been easy prey because there was a double layer of trust. He was a policeman and her father's friend.

One thing about Schaefer. I don't think what he said could always be trusted, even when he was supposedly admitting to something. I think he admitted to things when he thought it would be useful to him or when he wanted the shock value. I think that he would sometimes lie and claim things he hadn't done or only wished he had done.

ITA with this point. He alternately enjoyed his notoriety and desired to cash in on it, yet resented the ridicule and humiliation. He wrote the KF stories in the first person to make them more convincing, then sued London. He spouted off in interviews that he was a world class serial killer, but then turned around and sued the interviewers. When it suited his convenience, he would elaborate on murders that interested LE. But he always left himself an out and was clever enough not to include specific information that could lead LE to evidence. I can only imagine the frustration of the investigators who interrogated him.

When he filed a defamation suit against writer Michael Newton and Avon Books, an Indiana district court had this to say in its ruling against him.

The record establishes beyond doubt that Schaefer has indeed been linked with the murders of at least 20 persons. The recovery of items referred to in the first sentence of the entry on Schaefer is a matter of public record. Schaefer v. Stack, 641 F.2d 227 (5th Cir. 1981). He boasts of the private and public associations he has had based on the reports that he is a serial killer of world-class proportions and it is only arrogant perversity which propels him toward this and similarly meritless lawsuits in which he claims otherwise. E.g., Schaefer v. Nash, 149 F.R.D. 583 (N.D.Ill. 1993).

more at the link

Schaefer v. Newton
United States District Court for the Southern District of Indiana, Indianapolis Division
http://in.findacase.com/research/wfrmDocViewer.aspx/xq/fac.19940711_0000031.SIN.htm/qx

 

[Still_Seek_Answers]

The record establishes beyond doubt that Schaefer has indeed been linked with the murders of at least 20 persons. The recovery of items referred to in the first sentence of the entry on Schaefer is a matter of public record. Schaefer v. Stack, 641 F.2d 227 (5th Cir. 1981). He boasts of the private and public associations he has had based on the reports that he is a serial killer of world-class proportions and it is only arrogant perversity which propels him toward this and similarly meritless lawsuits in which he claims otherwise. E.g., Schaefer v. Nash, 149 F.R.D. 583 (N.D.Ill. 1993).

more at the link

Schaefer v. Newton
United States District Court for the Southern District of Indiana, Indianapolis Division
http://in.findacase.com/research/wfrmDocViewer.aspx/xq/fac.19940711_0000031.SIN.htm/qx

Thank You Bessie for the link.You are very correct, Debbie was a child, despite her looks,and she thought as a child would. We were taught to always trust the police, and we were never permitted to to disrespect or disobey an adult. So I am quite certain Schaefer had no problem getting her to go with him.
Even in this tiny safe town, I raised my kids a bit differently...don't miunderstand, I taught my kids to respect people and the law, but I also taught them to be safety conscious .

5.The materials examined by Newton are replete with information linking Schaefer with the murders of at least 20 persons. In fact, from his own hand he explains that he has been linked to scores of murders (80-110), that he is "probably at least one of the top [serial killer's] of this Century," that his killings "would only come to perhaps 10 to 12 per year for 8 years" and that he murdered women out of a sense of moral outrage rather than sexual interest. (These swaggering remarks are in exhibit 25 to Newton's second verified declaration, filed on April 19, 1994 and are echoed in exhibit 24, which is Schaefer's suggestions for a lurid description of himself.)

8 to 12 per year for 8 years,and that he murdered women out of a sense of moral outrage rather than sexual interest.He is named as a sex beast for a valid reason, and it is not in any way related to moral outrage. This man was a monster, and he tortured kids and tore apart families with no thought or caring of the pain he left behind. Then he took it one step further, he disposed of bodies in the swamps to be consumed by animals, and to insure that the families he tore apart could not even bury their dead, that insured that the pain would not end, and the families left behind could not find the closure they needed to heal.

There truly are no words to describe what he did to my family, and the families of others who remain as we do, with no clear proof, and only suspicion that he is the monster than stole our loved one away. So we go through every day...searching for clues...seeking answers in unidentified databases, hoping today is the day we get a match, and praying that our loved ones did not suffer long.Waiting....and wondering....but never having a clear answer...and the saddest part, they were not even people to him, he could not even remember their names, which is why he labeled them as he did.....

I like my family mourn his death, for two reasons....any hope of getting a clear answer died with him on that December day....and he did not suffer near enough for all the pain he left behind.....naturally, that is JMO.


http://in.findacase.com/research/wfrmDocViewer.aspx/xq/fac.19940711_0000031.SIN.htm/qx

 

[Oriah]

Still_Seek_Answers, forgive me if I overlooked this info somewhere- but what personal vehicles did Schaefer have access to, at the time your sister was abducted?

ETA: I am looking at parking areas near waterways- and vehicles, vessels, marinas that may have had the same registration addresses at the time.