trial thread; 3/6/2012

[Wondergirl]

Just to be clear, according to the Crown's opening statements, and the LFP tweeting of them here, there are 2 pieces of evidence with Tori's blood on them. One is just hers. One is Tori's and MTR's.

Also, it says here that MTR's car did have the seat prior to the abduction.

From the London Free Press Trial Updates Replay Twitter Feeds.

RaffertyLFP:
Blood was found on rear moulding of Honda Civic, could be linked to Tori [via Twitter]

2:35
RaffertyLFP:
Blood was found on gym bag in car - this sample could be linked to Rafferty and Tori [via Twitter]

2:36
RaffertyLFP:
When police seized Civic it had no back seat - before abduction it did. [via Twitter]

http://www.lfpress.com/news/london/raffertytrial/2012/03/05/19459396.html

 

[nonfictionrocks]

It is interesting to me that none of the media have reported that any member of MTR's family is in court to support him!

As I recall, initially, they were supportive and were assisting him in finding a lawyer.
(I cannot remember where I read that, though!)

There are a lot of people at the courthouse, in both the rooms and in the hallways. With MTR in a box it is difficult to tell who might be family members, unlike where in other situations the family sits right behind the defence table and could be easily identified by hand grasping when he arrives to the table. I do not know what his mother looks like and if I did, I am not sure I would recognize her after almost 3 years of stress either. What I do know is that a family member could very well be tweeting to followers (not necessarily Mike's but that particular family member) from right there in London/ All of course, is my opinion only.

 

[daisy.faithfull]

If anyone is interested in reading about the cross-over offending this is a paper that addresses that topic (page 5). It also discusses the whole power/anger dynamic (page 4) that we discussed somewhat yesterday.

Understanding the Predatory Nature of Sexual Violence
David Lisak, Ph.D. University of Massachusetts Boston


ETA: I mentioned it up-thread in relation to an observation Hello Kitty had made.

 

[nonfictionrocks]

Just to be clear, according to the Crown's opening statements, and the LFP tweeting of them here, there are 2 pieces of evidence with Tori's blood on them. One is just hers. One is Tori's and MTR's.

Also, it says here that MTR's car did have the seat prior to the abduction.

From the London Free Press Trial Updates Replay Twitter Feeds.

Just to be clear too, this is from the opening statement and the jurors have been told the opening statement is not evidence. The use of the word "could" worries me. I choose to wait to cross this bridge when the evidence is presented and the defence has their chance to cross examine it.

 

[antiquegirl]

I only watched a few minutes of the Casey Anthony trial. Did she cry much? Has anyone here watched many American trials? What is the weeping ratio over there and how does it match up with guilt or innocence? Just curious, as this is the first trial I've followed.

 

[daisy.faithfull]

Snipped by me:

I never believed this was a random thing, I never believed she didn't get up thinking she was going to abduct someone. I think this was something they had been thinking about for a long time, I believe they chose a child because the child would be easier to control, and I think this may have been a thrill kill. JMO

When I was reading through the literature looking for information on crossover tendencies, I read that there is also a tendency for sex crimes to not be random and unplanned. But darn it I can't find which one it is. Urg. :banghead:

ETA: Its not the academic paper that I saw, but here is a site that discusses myths surrounding sexual assault:
http://www.d.umn.edu/cla/faculty/jhamlin/3925/myths.html

Myth: Sexual assault is an impulsive, spontaneous act.
Fact: Most rapes are carefully planned by the rapist. A rapist will rape again and again, usually in the same area of town and in the same way.

 

[antiquegirl]

The video showing MR withdrawing money at the PetroCan ATM, TLM using the self service checkout at HD to purchase the hammer and garbage bags, paying with $40 in cash. This shows premeditation. The fact TLM was on video at 5:12pm and Tori died thereafter, shows premeditation. Very likely, like some murderers MR and/or TLM may have received some sickening, sadistic thrill from using the hammer. There are some murders who "get off" so to speak on gore, the violence and the adrenal rush it produces. IMHO TLM and/or MR are masochistic. They could have bought rope as it would have been cheaper but it would not produce the effects which thrilled them. Again, IMHO MR could have used his man's hands but desired what I mentioned above.

http://www.thestar.com/news/article...fic-details-of-slaying-revealed-as-case-opens

I think I explained this before, but I should have been clearer in my original post. By premeditation, I did not mean after the abduction. It's obvious that at some point after the kidnapping, and before the purchase of the hammer and garbage bags, a murder plan was hatched. This would be premeditation.

I meant days or weeks before April 8th. I believe that if a murder had been planned days or weeks prior, they would have been more prepared. Why take the risk of stopping at Home Depot with Tori in the car, when they could have brought these items with them?

This is JMO and I could very well be wrong.

 

[Hello_Kitty]

Why take the risk of stopping at Home Depot with Tori in the car, when they could have brought these items with them?

BBM:

Perhaps she was drugged, in that case they wouldn't have to worry about it, and given the rear windows were tinted, no one would have seen her, unless they had a reason to?

 

[swedie]

My opinion is that Rafferty was always the driver and TLM was in the back with Tori and that Tori was covered up somehow or pushed down. I don't think Tori was in the car yet at 3:20 pm when the footage was taken at the ESSO station. JMO

This is my understanding also Matou, MR was the driver through it all. Somewhere it was mentioned Tori was not spotted in any of the surveillance videos, so yes I would think she was made to lie down on the back seat or be on the car floor. For all we know she may have been placed in the trunk at some point. I would like to know if MR's car had those child safety switch locks for the back doors, as some cars do, or if he had power locks which could be controlled from the front. OR did he remove the handles from the back so Tori couldn't get out? So many details to come. It's devastating to think about what might have happened to this sweet, bubbly, spunky little girl. Tori was loved by her parents. I will not take that away from them. It's pretty apparent. JMHO.

 

[daisy.faithfull]

I only watched a few minutes of the Casey Anthony trial. Did she cry much? Has anyone here watched many American trials? What is the weeping ratio over there and how does it match up with guilt or innocence? Just curious, as this is the first trial I've followed.

I was just thinking about that. Anthony looked like she was crying, but there were no tears really. Its been mentioned that MTR was wiping his eyes and was crying but I wonder if there were tears and a runny nose.

 

[Alice Ramnit]

I only watched a few minutes of the Casey Anthony trial. Did she cry much? Has anyone here watched many American trials? What is the weeping ratio over there and how does it match up with guilt or innocence? Just curious, as this is the first trial I've followed.

I watched every minute of the Casey Anthony trial.To me, she 'fake cried' at appropriate moments but only really cried when she was angered.

 

[Alice Ramnit]

I think I explained this before, but I should have been clearer in my original post. By premeditation, I did not mean after the abduction. It's obvious that at some point after the kidnapping, and before the purchase of the hammer and garbage bags, a murder plan was hatched. This would be premeditation.

I meant days or weeks before April 8th. I believe that if a murder had been planned days or weeks prior, they would have been more prepared. Why take the risk of stopping at Home Depot with Tori in the car, when they could have brought these items with them?

This is JMO and I could very well be wrong.

I would bet this was a 'thrill kill' that may have evolved out of a sexual fantasy.
Because they are drug users they were probably too disorganized to buy items in advance. JMO, of course!

 

[daisy.faithfull]

I would bet this was a 'thrill kill' that may have evolved out of a sexual fantasy.
Because they are drug users they were probably too disorganized to buy items in advance. JMO, of course!

TLMc didn't purchase a shovel while she was getting the hammer.

 

[antiquegirl]

BBM:

Perhaps she was drugged, in that case they wouldn't have to worry about it, and given the rear windows were tinted, no one would have seen her, unless they had a reason to?

Yes, I believe it's likely that she was drugged. But my point is that if they had planned to kill a child days or weeks before the abduction, the car already would have had the hammer and garbage bags in it. They could have taken them from home, or purchased them any day prior in Woodstock or London - without a kidnapped child in the car. It would have made it harder to link it to the crime, too, than doing it an hour before. It was still a risk and a time delay to make a stop that shouldn't have been necessary if they knew for days that this was going to happen.

I just can't see anyone plotting an abduction and murder and saying the week before, "Okay, first let's kidnap a kid, then we drive to Guelph and buy a weapon and garbage bags, and then we take her to Mt. Forest and kill her." KWIM?

Answers to a thousand questions - hopefully, we will get them soon.

JMO

 

[antiquegirl]

I would bet this was a 'thrill kill' that may have evolved out of a sexual fantasy.
Because they are drug users they were probably too disorganized to buy items in advance. JMO, of course!

It's possible, but the word "evolved" suggests a last minute/hour decision to me. We also have to consider that Tori could identify her abductor(s) and this is a good motive right there.

JMO

 

[Alice Ramnit]

TLMc didn't purchase a shovel while she was getting the hammer.

I am confused. I have not heard about a shovel before. Only garbage bags and a hammer.
I don't think her body was buried. It thought it was hidden under some rocks?

Why would TLMc need a shovel?

 

[Alice Ramnit]

It's possible, but the word "evolved" suggests a last minute/hour decision to me. We also have to consider that Tori could identify her abductor(s) and this is a good motive right there.

JMO

I meant that they may have discussed abducting Tori as a fantasy during sex 'play'...but that the decision to actually follow through was probably and impulsive one, fueled by drugs.

 

[daisy.faithfull]

I am confused. I have not heard about a shovel before. Only garbage bags and a hammer.
I don't think her body was buried. It thought it was hidden under some rocks?

Why would TLMc need a shovel?

I'm sorry. I was just trying to point out that I agreed with what you said about being drugged out and disorganized. TLMc purchased a murder weapon and something to put a body in, she did not purchase a shovel. A shovel is a common tool used to dispose of a body. Instead they covered Tori with rocks. It just seems like they made it up as they went along.

Just a thought I had.

ETA: They abducted Tori. They had not thought of how they would restrain her so they had to stop to get the drugs that they may have used to knock her out. They had not considered that Tori would be able to identify them so they decided they had to kill her and bought a hammer and bags to cover their crime or carry Tori to wherever it was they were going to dispose (sorry to have to say that) of her body. They hadn't thought about burying her so they covered her with rocks.

 

[daisy.faithfull]

It's possible, but the word "evolved" suggests a last minute/hour decision to me. We also have to consider that Tori could identify her abductor(s) and this is a good motive right there.

JMO

Has anyone ever told you that you are exceptionally analytical antiquegirl?

 

[daisy.faithfull]

Oh, carp she's not here anymore. I mean that as a compliment, picking apart every word and considering every detail. It interesting, very sleuth like.